Camus

[piquant]

Ok, I know it's sad, but I just read The Stranger for the first time. I'm trying to work through a lot of questions I have about the book, and I was wondering if any of you had read it so I could get some insight. Thanks.

[Diceman]

I read it a while ago, to find out what The Cure's "Killing An Arab" was all about. I don't claim to be an expert, but ask your questions and I'll tell you what I reckon.

[den]

Q's? Fire away ;)

[piquant]

I think the whole book is practically my question, but I'll try to narrow it down....

What was Camus trying to say in the way he portrayed his protagonist?

Why in the end does he wish for a large crowd of spectators at his execution?

Why, despite his detachment from his mother does he refer to her with the child's version of the word mother?

What is the philosophy of this book?

[Diceman]

Originally posted by piquant
What was Camus trying to say in the way he portrayed his protagonist?
That a man who doesn't cry at his mother's funeral will be condemned by the world.

What is the philosophy of this book?
Not quite what one would call perfectly existential, since the protagonist doesn't attempt to ascribe any meaning to his life... he simply exists. The philosophy is almost completely nihilistic: that nothing has any meaning, that nothing is important.

At least, that's what I reckon. I'm still mulling over your other questions - would be interested to hear what others think.

[Dr Cynic]

Originally posted by piquant
What was Camus trying to say in the way he portrayed his protagonist? ...

.What is the philosophy of this book?

The novel “L'Etranger” might be described as Camus’ Nihilist Manifesto. When I read the book a good few years ago, I was struck by its extremely simple grammar and vocabulary (I don't know about the English version as I haven't seen it) : Camus strictly avoids the use of long sentences and complex tenses:

“Aujourd’hui, Maman est morte. J’ai reçu un télégramme de l’asile- (Mom died today. I received a telegram from the old people’s asylum).

It’s like that all the way. In this manner, Camus tries to express his contempt for norms and conventions; he doesn’t care a damn that he’d be thought of as a “bad” writer.

He shows equal disdain for what’s come to be regarded as “moral”: He kills the Arab without any qualms, rejects the priest who had come to “absolve” him, and calmly walks to the gallows in front of a big crowd….

[Koa]

Originally posted by Diceman
I read it a while ago, to find out what The Cure's "Killing An Arab" was all about. I don't claim to be an expert, but ask your questions and I'll tell you what I reckon.

So I was right! I didn't read the novel (but I wish to do it sometime) but I read the summary on my French lit. book when I was at school, and I had just got into the Cure and that song...and it couldn't be a coincidence, it seemed so similar!

I was thinking the other day that I really should read some Camus instead of knowing just the summaries from my schoolbook...wish I had time...

[IWilKikU]

Its really really short. You should be able to read it in under 3 hours, depending on the languege your reading it in and how familiar you are with it (the languege not the book)

[Koa]

Oh is it so short? Great, I'll look for a copy of it as soon as I have 3 whole hours to spare....well let's say 6 as I have decided I'll only read things in original language when I have the possibility to, and my French is a bit rusty (and never been as fluent as my English, but if it's all so easy as the quote above, it shouldnt be too hard)

[IWilKikU]

I'm so jelous. I wish that I could read non-English books in their original form. :(. Thats what I hate about American education. We don't get any forign lang until highschool, and by then I can't think in any other sentence structure than what I'm used too. And conjagating verbs? Forget it!

[piquant]

Yeah, you definitely catch the simplicity of the prose in the englis translation.

To me, the book seemed like a comment on extreme individuality, where the individual becomes so isolated he is unable to relate logically with his surroundings. I'm not sure if Camus felt this was good or bad, or if it was more of a "here it is; you judge the pros and cons."

I definately caught the nihilism, where nothing has meaning, and is absurdly insignificant. But incontrast to that, the protag is using the child's version of the word mother (mom). Why this extreme nihilism, and then the human, childish form of mother?

And why the big crowd, it seems so important. It seems in contrast to the nihilism. If nothing matters, then why does it matter that people watch the execution.

In the end, he understands why his mother, close to her death, wanted to play at starting all over again, and he wants to do the same thing. Why, if none of it matters, live again? Why want to start over? It seems that throughout the nihilistic view of the character bits of humanity seep in, an inability to accept the world with profound indifference, the push to live and live and live whether it is worth anything or not.

[Dr Cynic]

Originally posted by IWilKikU
I wish that I could read non-English books in their original form. :(. Thats what I hate about American education. We don't get any forign lang until highschool....

Don't bother your head too much about other languages. You are lucky enough to be born in an English-speaking country, and English being the language of international communication, your educators have never felt any great need for other languages.
This allows people in America to focus their minds on things like science and technology and the country is much better off that way. :D :D

[Koa]

You're being sarcastic here above, right?
*scared*

Kik, we do get languages here at school etc, but I believe the way they're taught is still quite crappy. Not everybody gets fluent, not even in English, only people who are really interested in it.

[IWilKikU]

Nobody gets fluent here unless they have a forignborn father or mother who taught them at a very young age, or they actually go and live in another country to study. The only person I know who was English born and learned a forign lang fluently had to spend a summer in France, and when she arrived she found that everything she thought she knew about conversational French was not quite right.

[Koa]

LOL yes the actual French can be very different from what you think...

Wanna get fluent in a lnaguge you know just the basic of? Buy a computer ;) My English wouldnt be half this fluent if it wasn't for my internet addiciton. I keep telling myself I should find forums to practise the other languages too, but I'm too lazy.. Music helps a lot too. And reading, but it is a pain if you're not slightly fluent yet...

[IWilKikU]

I want to learn French, but I know practically NONE. I suppose I could get a teach yourself French book, but I really don't have time for that. :(

[azmuse]

too bad you can't start with jackie collins like i did ;)

[Diceman]

Originally posted by IWilKikU
I want to learn French, but I know practically NONE. I suppose I could get a teach yourself French book, but I really don't have time for that. :(

Mate: buy yourself a few French-language comic books.

There is no better way to learn the language. The language in comics is usually simple - nowhere near as prosaic as typical "literature". Furthermore, the pictures provide context which helps in understanding the language - often you can determine the meaning of unknown words by working out the relation between the sentence and the current frame.

I have a number of Asterix and Tintin books in French. I find Asterix to be simpler to read. However the humour in Asterix relies a lot on puns. I find a lot of these puns just go over my head. Tintin is more difficult to read, being much wordier than a typical Asterix volume, but at least the French is more straightforwardly written.

As an exercise, grab an English translation of a French comic and compaer the two. It's interesting to see how phrases are translated - and in some cases, completely rewritten!

[IWilKikU]

wow, I never would have thought of that. Thanks!

[fallen_one]

HI everyone!
I've read the book, and I just read The trial from Kafka. I was wondering how the two main characters of both stories could be compared. Any ideas??

[IWilKikU]

Sorry, I havn't read Kafka yet :(

[Koa]

I bought it... L'étranger I mean. I was supposed to read it after finishing exams but that was 3 days ago and I still havent started...I wanted to do it now but here I am...later I'll do it do it do it!!!

[IWilKikU]

I've been meaning to get a copy of L'etranger. I think that reading it comparatively with "The Stranger" (English version) would greatly enhance my French. But alas, the only books in my bookstore are English :(.

Say, does anyone know where in London I can get a French version???

[Koa]

I read only the first 3 chapters so far... It doesnt seem to involve me so much that I can't put the book down...

My French is still better than I thought, though I keep noticing how much grammar I forgot (yeah I'm so perverted to notice that...).

Kik, no idea about where in London they seel foreign stuff but in such a place there must be somewhere....!!!

[Koa]

The book caught me. Still haven't finished it yet, it's not as quick as I thought but it's ok :)

In the meantime, I thought I'd post the lyrics to the Cure's song that seems to be inspired by this book (as I said I knew the song before I'd ever heard of the book and when I read the summary of it I thought hey...just like the song! It couldn't be pure coincidence...)


Killing an Arab

Standing on a beach
With a gun in my hand
Staring at the sea
Staring at the sand
Staring down the barrel
At the arab on the ground
See his open mouth
But hear no sound

I'm alive
I'm dead
I'm the stranger
Killing an arab

I can turn and walk away
Or I can fire the gun
Staring at the sky
Staring at the sun
Whichever I choose
It amounts to the same

Absolutely nothing

I'm alive
I'm dead
I'm the stranger
Killing an arab

Feel the steel butt jump
Smooth in my hand
Staring at the sea
Staring at the sand
Staring at myself
Reflected in the eyes of
The dead man on the beach

The dead man
On the beach

I'm alive
I'm dead
I'm the stranger
Killing an arab

[Diceman]

Now post the lyrics in French :p

[Koa]

Originally posted by Diceman
Now post the lyrics in French :p

Is it a provocation? do you think I wouldn't do it??? :D

I read the book, I did like it...the atmosphere, the thoughts, the simplicity... While reading quickly the commentary at the end of the edition I found a comparaison even to Crime and Punishment, which I hadnt really thought about, maybe because it's exactly the other way round...

Je vis
Je suis mort
Je suis l'étranger
En tuant un arabe :D
(wow the syntaxis needs to be changed quite a lot ... *likes to compare languages*)