Good Manners vs Sincerity???

[SleepyWitch]

are good manners/etiquette/small talk and 'sincerity' mutually exclusive/opposites? (my mum thinks so)
I'll keep my own views to myself for the moment and see what you come up with :)

[Pensive]

Maybe I am looking stupid to say this thing, but the truth is that if "putting your elbows on the table" or "laughing out aloud" comes in ill-mannerism, then I don't give it a damn!

My definition for manners is just living a life adopting such qualities that you don't hurt people for no reason at all. So I think if some friend wants your advice on some story, and it is written really bad, it doesn't hurt to tell him so, well try not to point it in a discouraging way. Even there are some people to whom you have to show mocking attitude, if they have really messed something up, for their own good. As far as I think, it does not come in "ill-mannerism."

So, sincerity, itself comes in my definition of mannerism. :)

[SleepyWitch]

very good answer, Pensy :)
my mom's problem is the other way round: she seems to think that doing small talk or being nice to people is superficial, insincere and generally evil. With her, every word you say must have some philosophical wisdom or import on the world as a whole. (In other words: she's the greatest person in the world and everyone else is shallow, insincere, immature and doesn't live up to her standards)...
I don't see what's wrong with being nice to people once in a while. At least if it's people you like...
I also don't see anything wrong with being polite to random strangers if it helps expand your social network// because there's no reason not to be polite. I mean, what's the point in being unfriendly to someone you've just met when all it takes is some small talk?

[Lily Adams]

Small talk isn't evil! Nor is it bad manners. What if you just met the person? I think starting out with small talk and then building up is fine. The best thing to do is have good intentions, I guess.

[AdW2356]

The better question is: At the time, what is within your heart? What is the cause of your expression or reserve?

In this, you will see your fear, pride, etc. as well as love.

They can talk an awful lot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/yorkslincs/series9/images/week_three/baby203.jpg

They may keep to themselves.
http://www.fantasycostume.net/fantasy/images/Accessories/witchnosechin.jpg

[Virgil]

are good manners/etiquette/small talk and 'sincerity' mutually exclusive/opposites? (my mum thinks so)
I'll keep my own views to myself for the moment and see what you come up with :)

I think for the most part they are mutually exclusive. Good manners and etiquette is style while sincerity is the substance. One is the voice while the other is the words, if I can be a little creative.

When I think that they intertwine is when out of manners one does or doesn't say something. Then the style has affected the substance.

[papayahed]

Ok, what about in the work place - there is one person I really don't like. I deal with person on a daily basis. It's impossible not to have small talk - Is that insincere?

[Virgil]

Ok, what about in the work place - there is one person I really don't like. I deal with person on a daily basis. It's impossible not to have small talk - Is that insincere?

Papaya I said this above:

When I think that they intertwine is when out of manners one does or doesn't say something. Then the style has affected the substance.

[AdW2356]

I think for the most part they are mutually exclusive. Good manners and etiquette is style while sincerity is the substance. One is the voice while the other is the words, if I can be a little creative.

When I think that they intertwine is when out of manners one does or doesn't say something. Then the style has affected the substance.

By 'mutually exclusive' are we saying they may not coexist? or is this meaning something else?

[Virgil]

By 'mutually exclusive' are we saying they may not coexist? or is this meaning something else?

I think that it means they are independent of each other.

[mir]

ha ha :p, i actually discussed this in part of an essay recently. Just to add my cent, i don't think they are - not completely, anyways. You don't necessarily need to lie in order to have good manners; you have to couch some things in the right phrasing, and not mention others at all.

But personally, i hate the whole thing. It's very nice to be polite about things, but i hate the aura of lies and insincerity that surrounds any "diplomatic" society and conversation. People's feelings wouldn't be hurt anyways by truthful comments if they were used to getting them! (i think. There are up sides to diplomacy. :p)

[mir]

. . . Okay, sorry if that made no sense. I got a concussion today. Maybe they are mutually exculsive; what i want to know is if they have to be in order to maintain relationships.

[Lily Adams]

ha ha :p, i actually discussed this in part of an essay recently. Just to add my cent, i don't think they are - not completely, anyways. You don't necessarily need to lie in order to have good manners; you have to couch some things in the right phrasing, and not mention others at all.

But personally, i hate the whole thing. It's very nice to be polite about things, but i hate the aura of lies and insincerity that surrounds any "diplomatic" society and conversation. People's feelings wouldn't be hurt anyways by truthful comments if they were used to getting them! (i think. There are up sides to diplomacy. :p)

Yes. I don't much care for the "politically correct" thing, either. Maybe it depends on the situation. When I first met this girl at school we immediately hit off with big discussions...

[Niamh]

Although i do believe that manners are important (There is a terrible amount of bad manners in dublin at the moment and it up sets me that many people do be rude instead of having some kind of manners) i also believe its important to be yourself and be sincere. nobdy will ever really know who you are if you go around all prim and proper, mannerly etc.

[Lily Adams]

^Yes, exactly...I never really seemed to have a problem with all this, so I've never really gave it much thought. Maybe if you're just meeting the person for a short time (and only once) you could use small talk. Like I said, build up. (Seems to work for me.) Is that "shallow"?

[Niamh]

no i think most people use small talk when they're only meeting for the first time or only the once. Unless your my friend Malachy who after introducing himself to me went into a rant about tv programme the Office (It included him laughing at jokes while i stood on mystified!) That was three years ago and hes still a good friend. odd that.

[ennison]

You wouldn't like my sincerity (neither would I and my bad manners would be worse.) Chaneil mi ag aontachadh le do mhathair ach s ann mar siud a tha mi - borb!!

[ennison]

Is caomh leam an Eirinn s ann a siud a thainig mo chanan.

[Niamh]

thats it, wheres my english/ irish dictionary!:lol:

beside the bad manners i meant is that which goes in and out of Dublin Airport. we have a saying there, ' passengers, leave your manners at the door'.

[dramasnot6]

I think everyone needs a bit of small talk once in a while. I personally love getting into deep, complex conversations and debates about philosophy, psychology, the arts, etc. and take them when i can get them. But some days i just wake up wanting to blabber about more superficial topics, it's relaxing. But how much small talk is comfortable and how much is excessive and dull depends on the person. Almost everyone at my school only converses in small talk, for me it gets very repetitive and agitating at times but they love it. Sometimes to be polite we have to use small talk with those who enjoy it, tis better to do a little acting in a conversation then to completely ignore people and hurt their feelings. If someone respects my preference of topics, it is only fair for me to do the same.

[byquist]

If you can find the essay, "The Ways We Lie" by Stephanie Ericsson, you might get some answers on this, and in a humorous fashion.

[Virgil]

I think everyone needs a bit of small talk once in a while. I personally love getting into deep, complex conversations and debates about philosophy, psychology, the arts, etc. and take them when i can get them. But some days i just wake up wanting to blabber about more superficial topics, it's relaxing. But how much small talk is comfortable and how much is excessive and dull depends on the person. Almost everyone at my school only converses in small talk, for me it gets very repetitive and agitating at times but they love it. Sometimes to be polite we have to use small talk with those who enjoy it, tis better to do a little acting in a conversation then to completely ignore people and hurt their feelings. If someone respects my preference of topics, it is only fair for me to do the same.

Drama, LOL, you're only 14. That's what 14 year olds talk about. You my dear are very different. :)

[kathycf]

Well, wouldn't this sort of thing depend on the situation? Would it be appropriate to walk up to a complete stranger and announce in all sincerity that they look like s**t? Maybe in honesty they do, but is it necessary to comment on it? Perhaps a poor example but still.

I consider myself a pretty honest and decent person and I don't see too much terribly wrong with a spot of small talk now and again. Having one's statements to be always about some incredibly important topic, rife with meaning becomes a bit exhausting. Didn't some wise person long ago say something about all things in moderation? Perhaps that could include small talk as well. Although a diet soley consisting of trivia would be apt to make one's brain atrophy....I guess that is where the "moderation" part comes in.

[Virgil]

Well, wouldn't this sort of thing depend on the situation? Would it be appropriate to walk up to a complete stranger and announce in all sincerity that they look like s**t? Maybe in honesty they do, but is it necessary to comment on it? Perhaps a poor example but still.

I consider myself a pretty honest and decent person and I don't see too much terribly wrong with a spot of small talk now and again. Having one's statements to be always about some incredibly important topic, rife with meaning becomes a bit exhausting. Didn't some wise person long ago say something about all things in moderation? Perhaps that could include small talk as well. Although a diet soley consisting of trivia would be apt to make one's brain atrophy....I guess that is where the "moderation" part comes in.

Yes I agree with you Kathy.

[dramasnot6]

Drama, LOL, you're only 14. That's what 14 year olds talk about. You my dear are very different. :)

Aww thanks Virgil! :) Its nice to get a compliment out of my frustrated rants;) :D

[mir]

don't worry, Drama, i do the same thing. :p i can talk to one friend on the phone for two hours about the meaning of life and the existence of God, then spend the rest of the night IMing somebody about whether duct tape or caution tape is the best thing in the world. :p

(The answer, of course, is duct tape. :D)

[cuppajoe_9]

Who was it that said he would rather be said nothing to in a sincere manner than be told "thank you" in a way that meant "go to hell"?

[subterranean]

In my previous position I had lots of small talks with the clients (I was a client coordinator). I felt completely "tortured" when I had to do that, as naturally, I'm a very expressive person. When I first joined the company, my manager personally "coached" me on doing small talk with the clients (as he understood my nature). I was just a college graduate back then and still had all those college kids' ideal thoughts. But the working world is different, esp. when you're working in service industry.

That result in my slightly negative opinion about people in the service industry. The bigger amount you'd willing to spend, the nicer smile you’d get...
(***remembering her experience staying at this world wide famous hotel :rolleyes:***)

As for good manners, well I don't know about that table manner etiquette (e.g. which type spoon and fork should be used). However, so far, none have complained about the way I behave in the dining table. I hold up door when there are other people behind me; when coincidently there's someone in coffee machine, I usually let him/her make his/her coffee first. Just those kind of standard stuffs... :)

[SleepyWitch]

I consider myself a pretty honest and decent person and I don't see too much terribly wrong with a spot of small talk now and again. Having one's statements to be always about some incredibly important topic, rife with meaning becomes a bit exhausting. Didn't some wise person long ago say something about all things in moderation? Perhaps that could include small talk as well. Although a diet soley consisting of trivia would be apt to make one's brain atrophy....I guess that is where the "moderation" part comes in.
hehe, yep, that's exactly what I meant. When my mum meets someone for the first time, she plunges right into 'meaningful' things and tells everybody (any random stranger) the whole story of her life in one long sentence... it can be a bit intimidating and veeeeeery exhausting

[kathycf]

hehe, yep, that's exactly what I meant. When my mum meets someone for the first time, she plunges right into 'meaningful' things and tells everybody (any random stranger) the whole story of her life in one long sentence... it can be a bit intimidating and veeeeeery exhausting
I bet. My sister is similiar in that she hates small talk. She seems to feel the only time to speak is when she has something important to say...usually some criticism of me. Well, I am exaggerating but that is how it seems sometimes. She is pretty shy, so the telling the whole life story thing is absent. Thank goodness.! :lol:

[Shalot]

Speaking of manners....

My grandfather died this weekend. I went to work on Monday morning and told my boss that he had died over the weekend and I told her that I needed to take the rest of the day off so that I could go to the rosary that night and then to the funeral on Tuesday. She said that was fine...

So when I went back to work today, a coworker asked me if I enjoyed my days off. And I said that I didn't, and that a family member had died and she said she was sorry and that she had no idea.

I do qualify for bereavement leave for this one. In addition, I have contributed money to buy flowers for one of my bosses when her grandmother died. I have also signed many sympathy cards and contributed items and money toward gift baskets and the like for coworkers who are having hard times (deaths illness etc). In fact, every time I turn around, a collection envelope for someone is going around. If it's not a collection envelope, its a card of some sort.

I am kind of hurt that they didn't bother to even get a card. Could someone not spare two dollars and a little ink? Should I say anything about it?

[SleepyWitch]

I'm not sure what you should do Shalot.
Probably it's best not to do anything?
I understand that you feel hurt. Personally speaking, I think your colleagues' behaviour is very inconsiderate.
But I think if you said something about it, they'd probably feel guilty and when peope efeel guilty they usually look for someone to blame their mistake on. So they might get mad at you and convince themselves that your behaviour is inappropriate/pushy even though it was them who started it....
Maybe they didn't deliberately neglect to give you a card or there was some miscommunication... Happens lots of times with the people at my department.. For example, these two teachers have their offices next door to each other but somehow they don't manage to ask each other whether they will go to this and that talk...
Most of the time when people do stupid things they don't mean it and aren't even aware of it....

[Virgil]

I see how you're hurt by that Shalot. I think I would be too. My father passed away a few months ago and I must say my office was very nice. I got many cards, including one from the office, and another from an office I worked at previously. They also wanted to send flowers, but I had asked them not to, and instead to send a small fruit basket to my mother. And that's what they did.

If what happened to you had happened to me, I would feel very tempted to say something. But it's best not to. Perhaps when the next funeral comes around for someone and they take up collection, you might say something then. But that might not still be proper ettiquette. I would still contribute to the next one though; that kind of tit-for-tat is small.

[EAP]

Shalot,

They don't have any obligation to buy you a sympathy card etc. There's no reason to feel a sense of entitlement because all the contributions you made were (presumably) from your own free will. After all, it is the actual feeling behind any materialistic display that counts and your co-worker seems to have expressed that already.






Regarding the original topic. ^

[kathycf]

Shalot,

They don't have any obligation to buy you a sympathy card etc. There's no reason to feel a sense of entitlement because all the contributions you made were (presumably) from your own free will. After all, it is the actual feeling behind any materialistic display that counts and your co-worker seems to have expressed that already.


Well, true nobody is obligated to contribute to any gift, ect. However if it is a common custom in Shalot's office to do something a little special for co-workers then that should include all co-workers who participate. Only one co-worker expressed sympathy and the others did not. Perhaps they were unaware of the situation, I don't know. When somebody is unhappy because of a loss, sometimes an expression of condolence is appreciated. It doesn't have to be a material item, even just an "I'm sorry" is nice. When people work in an office for 40 or more hours a week, those people tend to become the folks a person sees the most of. Usually there is a sense of friendliness or fellowship that develops amongst people in that situation, for example the office custom of giving tokens or gifts to fellow employees. If that is a common practice in Shalot's office ( and it seems it is ) then I don't think she expresses a "sense of entitlement by hoping to get more than one person to recognize the importance of her loss and her feelings.

However, I do agree with Sleepywitch and Virgil that to say anything after the fact wouldn't be the thing to do. Yes, people do stupid or thoughtless things without a sense of malice and it serves no purpose to remind them in this situation. If it were me, I would just forget about it.