NTHS - Animal Farm

[paulteach]

(Hello - to all others! I am a teacher and am planning for all my students to get on board here as an assingment and experience. In the next three weeks, there will be much from us - thank you for your patience with my Honors Freshman from North Tahoe High School)

CLASS - Lets get started! This is a great way to learn and use an online "discussion" site that you will use in your futures! Play around with this! I will offer extra credit for the students the utilize this site and can really find their way around it - Good luck and have fun!
Animal Farm - Where might there be foreshadowing in this novel?

[Maiya G-wood]

That was an excellent read! :thumbs_up
As for foreshadowing, I think that there were several examples during the beginning half of the book. An example is when the pigs required the extra milk and apples. It was partially and silently agreed the pigs would use it for their needs. I thought that this was the beginning of dictatorship ruling from the pigs.

Another foreshadow was when the pigs sent the ravenous dogs on Boxer. To me this says that in the later half of the book, Boxer will be betrayed.

If you had an understanding of Russian rulers and wars then you would realize know that Snowball (who was banished from the farm,) had the same fate as Leon Trotsky who got exiled when Stalin/ Napoleon took over.

:banana: Maiya G-wood

[juliagoolia]

I agree with Maiya- the act of the pigs taking the milk and apples was a sure sign that they believed they were better than the other animals.

However, I believe that foreshadowing occured even earlier in the novel. When old Major called all of the animals together to report his dream, the pigs sat direcly in front of him. This, along with the fact that old Major was a pig himself, gave us a hint that the pigs had a feeling of authority over the others. :wave:

[cccarly]

:nod:I agree with Julia, Old major took authority which in there minds needed to be done, but when old major died the pigs started to make rules and use other animals like boxer, who worked harder than any other animal on the windmill but was not treated better by the pigs and eventually as Maiya said betrayed:( (this book was SO good i enjoyed reading it, even though the ending was funky):alien:

[juliagoolia]

As I got further into the novel, I began to wonder if Napolean truely believed in the success of the windmill. Did he actually think it was going to work, or did he simply steal the credit for it from Snowball to gain the other animals' respect and admiration? I also suspect that he encouraged the building of the windmill to keep the thoughts of the animals on the promise of a luxurious future instead of the horrible conditions of their current lives.

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

[superkristen120]

i agree with all of you. julia- i think that Napoleon did not really fully support the windmill. I also think that Napoleon was trying to keep thoughts of a better future, than for them to figure out that they would not really have a better life than they had in the beggining of the novel. I would like to know how none of the animals had suspected anything about the pigs...and what they were planning to do? How did none of the animals figure out that the pigs gradually became higher in the ranking, of the animals on the farm, and became just like the humans?:confused: :confused: :goof: :eek: :santasmil

[juliagoolia]

Kristen, I belive that the reason the animals did not suspect the pigs is simply that they were...well, dumb. However, I do believe that some, including Benjamin, did understood what was happening. He probably realized that the other animals would not listen to him if he were to tell them that the pigs were using them all. Also, it was in his nature not to include himself in conversation on the farm. Remember, too, that the animals were forgetful; even when they thought they remembered a commandment as being different or having had better lives in the old days, the pigs always convinced them otherwise. Squealer always read them the "statistics" that proved how much better their lives were without humans, and since they could not remember the time when Jones was in control, they believed him.

[superkristen120]

ok...so i know this is a stupid question...but the pigs changed the commandments. is that correct? i am just a little confused:confused:

[juliagoolia]

Yes, the pigs changed the commandments. However, they told the other animals that the commandments had been that way all along. At first, the animals were skeptical, but they soon passed their doubt off as the unability to remember correctly and went along with their lives under the newly-altered laws. As I said before, Benjamin knew that the pigs were lying to the other animals, but for some reason or another he did not speak up.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a stupid question. :D

[CheyRose]

Well it said that Benjamin didnt speak up because he knew what was going to happen in the end. It said becasue he had been around so long, that he had seen this before. But i guess the reason he didnt say anything was because he knew the pigs wouldnt stop their plan and the other animals wouldnt believe him anyway.

[superkristen120]

ok thank you everyone!

[Mr Hat]

I believe that animal farm was a satirical view of communist Russia. As julia said, Snowball was Leon Trotsky and Napoleon was Stalin. I think old major was Lenin?

I assume that the main reason Orwell had the pigs change the commandments and the animals remain passive and seemingly ignorant was because Orwell wanted to demonstrate his point on the control a government has over it's citizens. If you have only ever lived in an environment where you work hard everyday and recieve mud and dirt for your efforts, then you assume that that is how life is. Similar themes can be seen in '1984', where the government has absolute control over information and media and the citizens remain passive because everyone who had remembered better times were long dead. For them, that kind of existence is ordinary.

[cccarly]

who is Mr Hat?

[Katieladybug]

Well now, that just about killed any questions I’d been holding, Mr. Hat summed up the symbolism of the entire novel. Great way to put it! But I am still a little confused about Boxers relation ship in the story; the animals obviously hold him valuable, even Napoleon used him as inspiration, even feared him at best. So what was his inspiration?
What is it that drives Boxer to be the hardest worker on the farm, to practically work himself to death? What group of people dose he represent in this story?

[Andrewhugs]

I beleive that Boxer represents the uneducated, hard-working class of the social order. He doesn't question why he works he just wants to do it so that he can relax later. Much like a lot of people in our own country.

[Katieladybug]

Ok, that makes perfect since. So boxer represents the working class of Russia, driven by his own ambitions of a peaceful future. And Napoleon fears him, only by his sheer numbers and strength. And Boxer follows Napoleon because he thinks that in doing so, he is promised a better future, not because he understands the principals of the commandments. Ok, then why dose Eric Blair describe him as loosing strength or growing weaker in the book animal farm? What is happening in Russian history (because I really don’t know the history very well) to make him write of boxers slowly dwindling strength? Are the people dieing?

Ps I totaly Remember that show! omg!:banana: all he needs now is some PJ's!

[Hannahpanda]

So who is Eric Blair??? and why did they kill Boxer? it seems like for all the work that he did for th farm they would let him retire peacefully....I think that there is foreshadowing in the beginning that the way they are treated by the humans is foreshadowing for whats to come.

;) Hannah

[Andrewhugs]

Going back to Katie's comment. Maybe he's saying that it was too late for them to realize what was happening to them. The takeover was finished; noone could do anything anymore. If Boxer went down, then even if they realized it they wouldn't have the strength needed to overthrow Napolean.

[CheyRose]

Eric Blair is the ACTUAL man that wrote this book. George Orwell is just the pen name. It says it on the very first page of the book. I'm pretty sure he decided to have a pen name because all the ideas and characters were real.

[Hannahpanda]

what i dont get is why use a pen name if you say your real name on the first page it takes away the point.........stupid question how old was boxer?


P.S. I like your poem

[CheyRose]

Well a while ago, before women were allowed to write and publish books, pen names were used a lot. for example J.K. Rowling. If you remember, for a bit, no one knew if she was a man or woman. I dont know why it says his name on the first page. I think it's because this book is a re-published edition of the original Animal Farm. I think Boxer was twelve or just about to turn it, because he was soon to retire.

[CheyRose]

p.s. thanx ;)

[Hannahpanda]

but even so its weird to say it the very beginning of the book and I wonder what his reason was for using a pen name?

How did the pigs loose their snouts?

[Charlottesmiles]

I'm not sure either. Did the pigs actually change to humans, or did their actions seem like humans? I think soom forshadowing of when the pigs become human is when Napolean meets with Whymper and the neighboring farm owners constantly, but only meets with the animals to give them orders. :(
P.S. Hi and Happy Holidays to every one and I hope you have a great break:thumbs_up :wave: :santasmil (the banana is cool:banana: )

[Hannahpanda]

I find it really weird that he talked to humans more than the animals of his farm for all he knew squealer could be plotting against him

[Katieladybug]

Back to charlottes Question, here's a thought. ok, lets say that the humans, Mr. Jones and the surrounding farmers of England represent one kind of governmental leaders. They are selfish and lap themselves in luxury while giving the animals only what they need to survive. Then major and the animals come in together to in rebellion to create themselves a better place to live. Soon the pigs become selfish and changing rules around to sute their own fancies. Be for you know it, they become just like the humans, treating the other animals as lowerley figures and shutting them out. They have changed the government around, what was once a perfect system has been crushed. It is now exactly the same as the humans government. The government system transformed in to the other, …….. sorry, I hope that made some scene. :idea: :D

Happy Holidays:D

[superkristen120]

answering charlotte's question about the pigs:
the way i took the pigs situation, it seemed to me that the pigs did not actually turn into humans but were mearly acting like humans. i dislike the pigs and dogs in the end of the book...i have a question.....why were the dogs Napoleon's gaurds? yes it is true that the dogs were strong (or so it seemed) but why the dogs? Did Napoleon choose the dogs because he knew that they would not try to overthrow him? :eek2:

:D :lol:
:ladysman:-hehehe this 1 is pretty funny!!!!!!!:D

[XXXsammyXXX]

to answere kristens questions about the dogs

[XXXsammyXXX]

i think the pigs picked the dogs because at the begining of the book it said that they just had a new litter of puppys so the pigs could train them from birth making sure tat they wouldnt queston them or over throw them

[Charlottesmiles]

Even though Napolean trained the dogs, what if they turned against him for some reason, they could have made the farm theirs. :idea: Katie yours made perfect sense so the pigs can represent our government who can make decisions that we may not like. So greed turned the pigs into just what they hated most, or did they always like the humans and just want the farm for themselves?
P.S. Hi and Happy Holidays to everyone and I hope you have a great break :thumbs_up :wave: :santasmil (the banana is cool:banana:)

[superkristen120]

:idea: charlotte i think that in the beggining the pigs may have not liked the humans. Towards the end of the book the pigs communicated with the humans because they (the pigs) figured out that the humans ran the farm fairly well, if they did what the humans did then the could rule Animal Farm.

:p :lol:

[jenny16]

but wouldn't you think that because of boxer's strength and hard work that the animals would look up to him, instead of the fat pigs?? i don't get how the pigs could out rule boxer?

[jenny16]

ok well going to kristen's comment. if the pigs knew that the humans' way of running the farm was good, then why would they make up the commandments about the humans being bad? the pigs told the other animals that the humans way of ruling things was bad. so why would they totaly contradict themselves?:confused:[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[jenny16]

ok well going to kristen's comment. if the pigs knew that the humans' way of running the farm was good, then why would they make up the commandments about the humans being bad? the pigs told the other animals that the humans way of ruling things was bad. so why would they totaly contradict themselves?:confused

[jenny16]

oops sorry i posted that twice!! :goof:

[baileyboo]

hey everyone-

i agree with andrew ... each species of animal seems to represent a different class or group of people in our world today. there are people [resembling the dogs & other horses in this book] who tend to understand & recognize wrongdoing when it happens but never make a stand, like the animals on the farm they let injustice occur.

Regarding Julia and Kristens' conversation about the windmill, I think that the main reason Napolean wants it finished is to show everyone up ... to give the illusion to other people & animals that Animal Farm has made the right choices and is getting along well.

[baileyboo]

oops ... what i wrote was replying to the first page ^^ [i didnt see the other two]

Question: What on earth is going on with the relationship between animals and humans in this book? Humans seem to understand the pigs as they run the farm ... but does it ever mention farmer jones understanding any of the animals??

[ben lurie]

interseting..what does the windmill represent? something that thousands die for in russia but doesnt help them at all...something that will never really be done but keeps pple working?

[ben lurie]

I was wondering who Mr. Jones was in the story relating to russia. Someone before the Russian Revolution obviously but who? Are the bordering farms Germany and...China? Does the warring between the humans attacking animal farm represent any particular wars and with what countries? whatsup with benjamin anyway? why is he so lazy and unhelpful when he could do so much.

[ben lurie]

were the pigs always corrupt? this is a broad Q but heres my take on it. In the beginnning like someone pointed out, major was always elevated and the pigs always sat in front. this hints that they were superior but they are almost rightly superior because they are more intelligent and hae ideas that could improve the farm. but if you look in the very beginning of the animals taking over, the pigs are always the leaders. the milk and the apples were just the beginning. but..were the pigs always corrupt. when they were ruled by the humans were they nasty and evil or did they only become this way once they took over and had power and authority. this brings up the topic of whether humans can ever be fair and equal. power corrupts. could humans ever run a governement like the one set up in animal farm? i dont think so i think the lure of power, money and sex are far too great. people are going to divert from their origiinal path of equality to favor their own needs. it often just starts out in little things, appples and milk but it grows and become even more deadly to a society.

[Maiya G-wood]

Hannah-

I think that Boxer was killed by the pigs because there was no more use for him. Also the profit of selling him to a glue/marshmallower could help pay for other needs. The pigs were evil dictators. What they couldn't use, had no reason to be on the farm. Who wants clutter? Probably what they thought. It's sad, but true!

[ben lurie]

i totally agree with myah. the pigs would promise all the animals retirement to keep them happy, but they would be unable to, or more likely, just didnt want to spend the food and energy to keep animals around that could nto work anymore.

[ben lurie]

sry spelled maiya wrong

[ben lurie]

off da topic but id b sick to have a giant pj party sometime

[Maiya G-wood]

So... uh... How long does everyone think that Animal Farm stayed 'intact' after the book? But I guess I'm acually asking how long was the Russian Revolution? Were the dogs representing followers of Stalin/Napoleon?

http://website.limeone.net/~jbonno/greenpigs/pictures/anfarm1.jpg

[Maiya G-wood]

Ben Lurie! You spelled my name incorrectly! M-A-I-Y-A!!!!! :flare:

You anger me!

[baileyboo]

I agree with MAIYA & ben!! I think they ditched Boxer because he would no longer be an asset to them as he was no longer working. so much for a relaxing retirement ... I hated the pigs after that happened. ...even more then i did before.


p.s. yes ben, a giant pajama party would be rather amazing

Happy vacation everyone !!

[baileyboo]

now myra lets not get upset over silly impertinent things such as who spelled who's name wrong!

[ben lurie]

maiya-i think that the russian revolution never really ended. the system that was set up is still inplace today, but a bit different, the pigs are still in power, aka the politburo. i dont think anythign has changed but mabe im wrong

[ben lurie]

hey theres a page 4 how confusing....

[superkristen120]

i agree with maiya, ben and everyone else about the whole boxer issue....back to jenny's comment on page 3.i think that the pigs may have started out to be against the humans, but as it shows in the book they gradually start to become like the humans....and to the commandments, they started to have more to them than the animals remember. who changed the commandments?(getting a little confused):confused:

i am with bailey about the pigs.:flare:

p.s. ben....where did u get having a huge pj party from?!?!?!?!?:confused:

:ladysman:-still my favorite one!

[Hannahpanda]

I totally agree with all of you except one thing yeah the pigs really couldn't change into humans so is the author using symbolism or are the animals just stupid and think that they are humans

that Pj party was really random

[Hannahpanda]

sry just trying to see if my picture works

[CheyRose]

I think this whole book is a HUGE example of symbolism. Seriously, every person, place, thing, or idea, is there to represent a part of the Russian Revolution. I am excited to learn about the actual events and ppl.

[ben lurie]

heres a question thatll hopefully get some pple pissed off:
the pigs had a right to lead and be harsh on the other animals because of their intelligence. without the pigs they would have no food or anything because they are all too stupid to do anything for themselves. the whole farm depends on the pigs because without that the animals would not even know how to grow their own food. therefore the pigs have a right to take certain liberties like getting all the food because they are so important and actually, they saved the animals.

[CheyRose]

so uh ben. who's haleigh and sarah???

[ben lurie]

haleigh and sarah are pple i know from da bay :)

[XXXsammyXXX]

i agree with ben on the subject of the pigs, as much as i hate to say it givin the situation, the farm did need leaders, or the farm would have gone into chaos<---sp? but i dont think they needed all the special liberties they gave themselves, i think the pigs got greedy and let the power go to their heads

[CheyRose]

i agree with sam. the pigs seriously didnt need to give themselves all the luxuries that they did. i think that they knew that if they said it was right, all the other animals would believe it. so they just got power hungry and used it to their advantage.

[superkristen120]

i completely agree with sam and cheyenne! i rather dislike the pigs!:flare: the pigs became so greedy, just like the humans in the beggining of the book.



Have a happy holidays everyone!!!!!!!!:D :santasmil

[CheyRose]

In regard of Kristen's comment, i agree. The pigs were the ones to start the whole "Revolution" against the humans, but in the end they figured the only way for the farm to survive is to have control. If there was no control then the farm wouldve turned into massive chaos. All of the other animals were too uninteligent to stand up and say what was happening was wrong.

[Conn]

what i really dont understand is after the pigs took control and started running it just as the humans were, they had the dogs share control of the farm by guarding them. My question is why did the dogs not trasform into human like animals as the pigs did? was it because the dogs did not share part in the intellegence?

[ben lurie]

pretty much dude, the dogs r just they're muscle. they didnt know **** they were just there doing whatever napoleon told them too. kinda like secret police. they were really mean and nasty like the pigs but not by nature but because hte pigs trained them to be like that. in away, the dogs were as taken advantage of as the rest of the animals

[Conn]

so the dogs seemed as if they were put above the rest of the animals but they were really under Napolean's control also because he raised them so they would do anything he told them right?

[superkristen120]

yes mitchell, the dogs were under the control of Napoleon.....just like all of the other animals on the farm. the dogs were somewhat above the animals but very slightly........the dogs were only treated like they were above the other animals because they could protect...and like it was discussed in an earlier thread, the dogs were trained when they were young puppies by the pigs. the dogs only obeyed Nappoleon because they did not know anything better.


p.s. mitchell, i like ur picture!:lol:

:ladysman: :goof:

[Conn]

what happened to the older dogs did they die and the only dogs left were the ones who were raised by napolean? I think if there were more dogs left because they were also smart but not smarter than the pigs they might have started a revolution.




P.S. thx

[polumide]

Yes, I agree that the dogs were raised by Napoleon. But that's for a selfish reason. He uses the dogs to attack his opponents,especially, Snowball. This is eveident in the dogs' chasing out of Snowball from the Animal Farm. As Conn noted, what becomes of the dogs is not clear in the novel. I think, however, that they too continue their lives in the farm like the rest of the animals and end up like other animals do, transforming into human beings or, perhaps, what stands for human beings.

[polumide]

Hi everyone! Xmas is here, you guys should send wishes to me because I just joined you and hope to contribute immensely.:lol: :banana: :wave:

[Hannahpanda]

so if all the dogs are gone which im not sure they are wont all the dogs be raised to protect Napolean and only napolean? and back to bens comment before I think that yes the farm wouldn't be able to survive without the pigs and I think that pigs deserved some reward but they went a little overboard.

[superkristen120]

i think that the dogs would be raised to protect the pigs and the pigs only. like in the book the dogs protected all of the pigs. Napoleon was the leader so the dogs would respect and look up to Napoleon.....and yes the pigs did go overboard on everything:flare:

:ladysman: :D

[Hannahpanda]

yeah its weird thou because if the dogs turned on snowball then the next batch had to be taught to respect all of them because the first clan was ready to kill snowball

Question: Why do we all think that the animals confessed to lies about talking to Snowball, how do we know that they aren't all true?

[SheykAbdullah]

yeah its weird thou because if the dogs turned on snowball then the next batch had to be taught to respect all of them because the first clan was ready to kill snowball

Question: Why do we all think that the animals confessed to lies about talking to Snowball, how do we know that they aren't all true?

All the animals in Animal Farm represent a different facet of the Russian October Revolution of 1917. The dogs represent the military, which was constantly controlled and pruged first by Lenin (Old Major) and then by Napolean (Stalin). Snowball represents Trotsky who was exiled by Stalin (and later killed in Mexico by an ice-pick wielded by a Mexican Communist with NKVD secret service connections) because Trotsky was Lenin's most probable intended succesor whose Communism differed vastly from Stalin's Totalitarian dictatorship and becaise while Trotsky was a primary figure in the Russian Revolution (Bothe Febuary and October revolutions) Stalin was a minor figure in the original struggle and an unknown prior to Lenin's death. As a result, the dogs didn't turn on Trotsky (Snowball) but were rather sicced on him by Stalin (Napoleon).

As for the lies about talking to Snowball, they represent the purges Stalin initiated before and after consolidating his power in 1923. They certainly were lies as Stalin's interrogators were not interested in the truth, but rather concerned with finding excuses to purge his enemies, and by torture and other means he forced people belonging to other parties and people who were a threat to him to admit to crimes, especially colaborating with foreign governments and other "counter-revolutionaries" like he branded Trotsky, so that he could punish them and show the people that he was vigilant in purging the country of "seditious elements." In Stalin's interrogations the truth was something that was maleable and unimportant. He exercised arrest quotas for districts and consequently people guilty of no crimes would be arrested simply to fill the quota to claim they were "vigilant in enforcing the standards of the Revolution."

[FishyFelyse]

Well Hannah we don't for sure know that all of the confessions were true, but based on the previous knowledge that Napolean has put forth it is hard to believe that he did not have anything to do with the confessoins involving Snowball. I believe Naploen somehow manipulated and tricked the other animals into believing that they recall Snowball having something to do with the mishaps on the farm and were in someway involved with his "skeeming"

[FishyFelyse]

In real life, if you are to be called a pig you are being reffered to selfish or greedy and so I believe that George Orwell portrayed Napolean and the other pigs as pigs and not some other animal because he wanted to symbolize them as being greedy and hungry for more.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[baileyboo]

Fe: I agree, I think that the pigs were pigs and the author put thought into what each animal would be and what it represented. Pigs are smart, though, too, so it may not have entirely been based on the greed factor. But I think your assumption is pretty accurate

[XXXsammyXXX]

but what i still dont get is y the animals would confess...even if they did the crime or not...i mean after the first animal was killed wouldnt you think theyd get the hint and not say anything if they valued their life?

[XXXsammyXXX]

so im guess what im asking is why did they confess?

[Conn]

All the animals in Animal Farm represent a different facet of the Russian October Revolution of 1917. The dogs represent the military, which was constantly controlled and pruged first by Lenin (Old Major) and then by Napolean (Stalin). Snowball represents Trotsky who was exiled by Stalin (and later killed in Mexico by an ice-pick wielded by a Mexican Communist with NKVD secret service connections) because Trotsky was Lenin's most probable intended succesor whose Communism differed vastly from Stalin's Totalitarian dictatorship and becaise while Trotsky was a primary figure in the Russian Revolution (Bothe Febuary and October revolutions) Stalin was a minor figure in the original struggle and an unknown prior to Lenin's death. As a result, the dogs didn't turn on Trotsky (Snowball) but were rather sicced on him by Stalin (Napoleon).

As for the lies about talking to Snowball, they represent the purges Stalin initiated before and after consolidating his power in 1923. They certainly were lies as Stalin's interrogators were not interested in the truth, but rather concerned with finding excuses to purge his enemies, and by torture and other means he forced people belonging to other parties and people who were a threat to him to admit to crimes, especially colaborating with foreign governments and other "counter-revolutionaries" like he branded Trotsky, so that he could punish them and show the people that he was vigilant in purging the country of "seditious elements." In Stalin's interrogations the truth was something that was maleable and unimportant. He exercised arrest quotas for districts and consequently people guilty of no crimes would be arrested simply to fill the quota to claim they were "vigilant in enforcing the standards of the Revolution."

from what SheykAbdullah says they were not nessecarily true but napoleans way of eliminating people that were not true followers, i believe they confessed because they never thought napolean would harm them from what the commandments told them at the time untill he "modified" the commandments

[FishyFelyse]

I agree with Mitchell, but I would also like to add that they weren't very smart to begin with so some of the animals may not have understood what was happening exactly and just followed in the other animals paths and confessed to their crimes...whether they were true or not.

[FishyFelyse]

I have a queston. Why didn't the other animals catch on to how the 7 commandments changed and were being altered? I mean most of the animals caught Squeeler in the act of changing the commandments, he had the paint brush in hand, the paint by his side, and had a ladder to give him a boost.

[ben lurie]

I have a queston. Why didn't the other animals catch on to how the 7 commandments changed and were being altered? I mean most of the animals caught Squeeler in the act of changing the commandments, he had the paint brush in hand, the paint by his side, and had a ladder to give him a boost.

the animals were so trusting and stupid they could nto reason for themselves what was actually going on. they were taught to trust the pigs no matter what so they belieed them and knew that if they diddnt bad things would happen to them. the smarter animals did not fall for it you notice but they were way too scared and smart to speak up.

[CheyRose]

Ya i agree with Felyse, its kinda retarted that the animals were that unintelligent, that even when they saw Squealer changing the comandments, they didnt even understand. It blows me away how they can watch something be done and not take any notice of it. Hmm weird.

[Conn]

well it would be like comparing the awarness and memory of someone who has mental troubles and then someone who can comprehend everything. so the animals couldnt help but listen and forget because they had no control over what the pigs were doing. Besides all the animals were said to have a brief memory of the change but then squealer would convince them otherwise with his jumping and whisking.

[jgross]

i would think the animals would see that the pigs were taking over and changing the commandments as they went. i think that maybe the pigs were afraid of the other animals freaking out on them so they tried to hide their wrongs or they just loved the power and didnt want anyone to stop them.

[FishyFelyse]

Yes the animals may have been stupid, but Clover was starting to question the commandments, when Squeeler was caught in the act of changing them, and benjimen knew all along, so why didn't he speak up and say something?

[ben lurie]

what is the deal with benjamin? i don't see who he really repressents or why he doesnt do anything to better himself and the farm..

[ben lurie]

who are the NKVD secret service?
ninja-kong viking danes

[XXXsammyXXX]

nkvd:Narodnyĭ Kommissariat Vnutrennikh Del

[juliagoolia]

Back to Ben's comment on pg 4-

Yes, you are right- the farm would indeed have gone down the drain if the pigs had not taken charge and organized the other animals. However, the way in which they did it was extremely wrong. As time went by, they began to realize that, by using the stupidity of the other animals to their advantage, they could gain complete control over the farm. That is when everything got worse for the other animals. The pigs used deceit and false hope to get the animals to labor like slaves, and what started out as a semi-equal society rapidly plumited into the cruel depths of dictatorship and enslavement. They fed the animals with little food and false information, and even though it never actually says in the book, I believe they began to wonder if their lives were as good as the pigs claimed they were. The pigs may have been eligible to lead the farm with their intelligence- lead, but not conquer.

[juliagoolia]

Benjamin...

As I believe Chey said before, Benjamin had seen this happen in the past. He probably reasoned that nothing he could do would stop the pigs, so he just sat back and watched. His signature quote was "Donkeys live a long time" (or something to that effect)- what he meant by this was that he had witnessed an animal rebellion (or maybe even more than one?) in his earlier yearas, and already knew that it would not result in a better future for anyone except the pigs.

[juliagoolia]

Has anyone else noticed that the words "animal" and "farm" always show up red? Wierd...

[keelybug10]

Hello!!
I think that there was deffinatly foreshadowing in this novel. The one that stood out most to me was in the beginning when the leader pig, Old Major, was giving his speach and all the pigs were in the front row. I feel that this means that the pigs are greater than any of the other animals and get more priority. Later in the book they become the leaders of everyone.
:thumbs_up ;)

[DHarley]

i want to know why the pigs sent boxer to the glue factory. i think that if Boxer would have rested for a few weeks and and once his strength had returned he could have contributed more work to the farm.

[Triskele]

i don't think it was about his ability to contribute, the pigs feared him, that is the key thing. he had power they didn't, he had respect that they didn't. he was a threat and so the pigs had to remove him from the picture. please, correct me if i am wrong but this seems to be the most logical scenario, especially considering the pigs as bolsheviks.

[Hannahpanda]

DHarley said i want to know why the pigs sent boxer to the glue factory. i think that if Boxer would have rested for a few weeks and and once his strength had returned he could have contributed more work to the farm.

replying to davidsons quote they got rid of him because he probably wouldn't have recovered and would have supposedly gone into retirement in a couple weeks working on the farm so they thought that they probably would have lost money and food because of him and boxer was no longer in need.:(

So you all said that Benjamin didnt speak up because hed seen it before but why didnt clover speak up?

[DHarley]

i was wondering why the pigs didnt feed the other animals more, they had enough food if the pigs shared but mabey they wanted to keep the other animals weak so they could not rebel.

[superkristen120]

davidson i think that the pigs did not give the other animals as much food because they did not want them to rebel...but then the animals would get weak and they could not contribute to work that needs to be done on the farm, so the farm would not be as successful. which would mean that the pigs would not get as much food for themselves. :idea: another reason that the pigs did not give the other animals as much food was that the pigs were greedy. they did not want to share their food because they thought they were supperior to the rest of the animals on the farm. yes the pigs were the brains of the farm but without the rest of the animals to contribute the farm would cease to exist. :eek:


:ladysman:

[ben lurie]

the whole point of the book in a way is to show why the pigs ran a BAD government. if they did all the things you said then they would have been bad but not thaaaattt bad. they didndt only take advantage of the other animals but many of their decisioins didnt even make sense. that kind of shows that thepigs werent only greedy and evil they were also not ery good at running a country.. they could have given themselves all the luxuries they needed by staying true to the 7 commandments and treating the animals nicer but evens o they didnt.

[ben lurie]

if anyone here has read eragon and harry potter davidson has a thread going comparing stuff with the 2 books and seeing which one is better check it out just search eragon and harry potter

[baileyboo]

the whole point of the book in a way is to show why the pigs ran a BAD government. etc

BENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN :
Do you think that the book was written with that as one of the main concerns? To "show why the pigs ran a bad government" ? I beg to differ ...something tells me that wasn't George Orwell's inspiration. ;)
Moreover, what exactly is the point of this book? To teach of the past Russian problems/occurrences in a way so that readers understood, but perhaps did not immediately recognize and had to look deeper to find the connection? Or just to demonstrate the failure of communism maybe??

[CheyRose]

Does anyone know if Benjamin represents/ed a group of people or one indivdual person?

[juliagoolia]

People seem to be confused about Boxer. The pigs did not consider him a threat- if anything, he helped them in his own way. His hard work and good attitude made him a role model to the other animals, but he was also completely devoted to Napoleon ("Comrade Napoleon is always right"). This served the pigs well, and they encouraged the other animals to follow Boxer's example and put their faith in animalism. In the end, the pigs sent Boxer to the glue factory not because they feared his power, but because he was old and no longer of any use to them. Boxer put in 200% of his effort into building the windmill and harvesting the crops, only to be rewarded with a death sentence.

[juliagoolia]

Hey, I just saw this from Ms. Paul and wanted to make everyone else does, too.


Hey characters! I hope your break is going well - please remember to ask one question and make any two comments...Print out your threads for proof (in case I don't see you here)
Anyone else who isn't in my North Tahoe High's Honors class - feel free to join in with my freshman - they are brilliant!

QUESTIONS

1) Was there any forshadowing in the novel? Can you think of any specifics.

2) Is there a way that communism CAN work? How?

3) What one - two aspects would you change about the plot, or what happens to the animals?

4) It is hard to believe that this is a satire; showing the happenings of what people actually went through...think of another instance - real life example of when a shocking historic event took place and the people didn't realize what was happening to them...

5) Why do you read Animal Farm and feel worse because animals are being taken advantage of, not people...Meaning, people wouldn't make you feel as badly.

[CheyRose]

wait, julia, does that mean that we have to talk about those "questions" and then print out what we said about them? ahh help

[Mr Hat]

baileyboo, i do not think that the book is about the failure of communism. George Orwell was actually known to have been a supporter of communism and believed that it was the next logical step in societies evolution. (interesting how it turned out, yeah?) Rather if we look at the original concept of communism as lenin and karl max envisoned, we can see quite a deviation from Stalin's communist rule. This in seen in animal farm when Old Major (Lenin) inspires the animals to a better future is sharply contrasted to the bleak reality offered by napoleon (Stalin).

In reality issues with productivity, efficiency, quality and worker motivation (just to name a few) made communism difficult and impractical. The result was that communism had to be abandoned in favour of dictatorship in order for those in power (the Pigs) to remain in power

George Orwell was critisizing Stalin's government with the parallel world depicted in Animal farm. It is interesting to note that pigs were chosen as the metaphors for Stalin's government...

on benjamin: "Benjamin is a donkey who is cynical about the revolution — and just about everything else. In general, he represents the skeptical people in and out of Russia who believed that Communism would not help the people of Russia. More specifically, he represents the Jewish population in Russia who were there before the Revolution and fully expected to be there after the Soviet Union fell (which they were). "None of you have ever seen a dead donkey" is a nicely allegorical way of expressing the Jewish community's attitude towards changes in national politics. His penchant for pessimism and occasional self-deprecation is also in keeping with Jewish forms of humor. He is one of the wisest animal on the farm, and is able to "read as well as any pig". However, this is an ability he does not exercise until the end of the book." quoted from wikipedia

[DHarley]

i dissagree with julia i think that the pigs were threatened by boxer because he was such in influence to the other animals if he rebeled the animals would follow and i think that scared the pigs so even though he was the best contributer he was also a threat.

[juliagoolia]

I dissagree with David.
If you have read the book, you will know that Boxer's two main beliefs were "I will work harder" and "Comrade Napoleon is always right". Napoleon was thrilled by this, especially since the other animals looked up to Boxer and would follow his lead by accepting the concept of animalism. David, Boxer was almost 12 years old- the age of retirement. However, he worked himself far too hard and eventually was injured. The pigs claimed that they had sent for the best veterenarian to take Boxer away to be treated, but actually sent for a van to take him to the glue factory. They DID NOT take him away because he was a threat- Boxer was old and weak, and no amout of resting would change that. He was looking forward to a pleasant life in retirement, and his only regret was not being able to contribute to the finishing of the windmill. The cruel pigs stabbed Boxer in the back; he put in a lifetime of effort with the belief that they would care for him in his elderly years, but instead they sent him to his death. I hope this clears things up a bit.

[superkristen120]

i agree with julia.....boxer was getting to the retirement age and once he got to that age he would be no use to the far because he could not contribute to the farm. so the pigs decided to go, and as julia said, stab him in the back. boxer only wanted to contribute to the building of the farm. but the pigs went and sent him to the glue factory.:flare:



:ladysman:

[Conn]

Also remember how they took away the part of the field that was going to be reserved for retired animals. So to the pigs they would only be taking up space.

[jenny16]

ok, i'm a little bit confused and have a couple questions.
1. ok so how do we know this book represents russia or whatever?
2. do the pigs talk to the humans, i mean literally talk to them?

SOMEBODY HELP ME PLEEEEEZZZZ!!!!!:eek2:

[jenny16]

EVERYONE HAVING AN AWESOME BREAK SO FAR????? I MISS YOU ALL!!!!

:wave: :banana:

[Andrewhugs]

Well, pretty much we knew that this was about the Russian Revolution because Ms.Paul told us. But that doesn't mean we would not have found out later.
And yes, the pigs do literally talk to the humans. Remember at the end? They were all sitting around the dinner table telling jokes and celebrating and blah blah blah.
And going back to Mitchell/Kristen/Julia/Davidson's arguement, I believe that they got rid of Boxer because of the retirement thing. They knew that he knew he could retire and that he probably was going to. They also remembered the benefits that retiree's would get when they did retire. So to ensure that he would never tax their luxuries, they got rid of him. By this I mean that if he had retired they would have had to give him more food which meant they had less. So it would have just been a nuisance to them and they didn't like that. So; Bye-Bye Boxer.


P.S. Ben

A P.J. Party? Were on the internet....
It wouldn't work!!!
.............Duh...........

[juliagoolia]

I agree, Andrew.

[superkristen120]

kind of off topic...but andrew, i think that ben ment a slumber party NOT over the internet. i think it would be tons of fun!:D

:ladysman: :lol:

[ben lurie]

In regard to the whole boxer issue, i believe none of you are completley right. The pigs DID think of boxer as a threat, but not directly. Anyone who has a lot of control over the other animals is a threat to the pigs. Boxer commanded a lot of respect and everyone trusted him, a lot of the times more than the pigs. Although boxer did have is "napoleon is always right motto", he was still a threat due to the power he commanded. Had he ever questioned napoleon, many animals would be with him and it would be difficult for the pigs to deal with. They canned him because he was old and couldn't work but also because they didnt want him getting in the way, questioning what the pigs did in his old age. Had he not been such a good worker, they would have found a way to get rid of him earlier.

[ben lurie]

Im starting with #2 but thats ok.
Can communism work?
I do not believe communism can work in the given time with todays people. For a million reasons , but ill try to get in a few important ones. I am guessing that communism could work on a small scale with select peoiple, a society of maybe 400 or so. But with only 400 people you would lose so much. Like ms. Paul was saying, one type of dress, one pair of pants stuff like that, no variety. That might b a good thing to give up for a better form of government but the lack of variety goes far beyond that. If you were to try communism on a larger scale, there are too many faults in peoples personalities that would destroy the perfection needed for communism to work. Greed is the main trait that is present in almost every person that would mess up how everything worked. Some would say it is taught into us due to our society that we live in, others believe that we are born with it, but deep inside us is a powerful survical instict that promotes selfishness and greed. The best way to stay a live is to get rid of all the competition and work for u and only u. Communism relies on people being caring and helping others. It would only work if somehow humans could change, or all the bad people could be kept out, and we are far from that. But would we want communism? A capitalist system sounds pretty great when your a multi millionaire and have anything you could ever dream of, but from a poor laborers point of view it kind of sucks. Being in the middle myself, I think there are definite changes that need to be made in our system, but communism is an impractical form of government and is overall NOT the answer.

[baileyboo]

i love julia!?

[ben lurie]

I also think that the book was not about how communism did or will fail. Its about how communism in russia was butchered an ruined by Stalin. In russia, and in animal farm, it was more of a dictatorshoip that communism.

[Triskele]

Im starting with #2 but thats ok.
Can communism work?
I do not believe communism can work in the given time with todays people. For a million reasons , but ill try to get in a few important ones. I am guessing that communism could work on a small scale with select peoiple, a society of maybe 400 or so. But with only 400 people you would lose so much. Like ms. Paul was saying, one type of dress, one pair of pants stuff like that, no variety. That might b a good thing to give up for a better form of government but the lack of variety goes far beyond that. If you were to try communism on a larger scale, there are too many faults in peoples personalities that would destroy the perfection needed for communism to work. Greed is the main trait that is present in almost every person that would mess up how everything worked. Some would say it is taught into us due to our society that we live in, others believe that we are born with it, but deep inside us is a powerful survical instict that promotes selfishness and greed. The best way to stay a live is to get rid of all the competition and work for u and only u. Communism relies on people being caring and helping others. It would only work if somehow humans could change, or all the bad people could be kept out, and we are far from that. But would we want communism? A capitalist system sounds pretty great when your a multi millionaire and have anything you could ever dream of, but from a poor laborers point of view it kind of sucks. Being in the middle myself, I think there are definite changes that need to be made in our system, but communism is an impractical form of government and is overall NOT the answer.

hey ben,

why wouldn't this work, if you read marx you would discover that he felt that communism would not happen on its own, but as a direct result of a socialist society, which is the eventuality of a capitalist system. you see, with the purpose of capitalism being to serve yourself, (social-darwinism) the gap between the rich and poor increases steadily. this results in one of two things, the poor getting so big percentage wise that a revolution happens b/c they are unable to survive with the current condition (result: reordering of society with workers in control... also called socialism), or the rich end up putting into place a social welfare program (the beginnings of an eventually socialist society). already you can see the gap b/w rich and poor increasing as well as a number of countries adopting social welfare programs. i think you miss the point of communism truth be told. b/c the point of a socialist state is to offer equal opportunity not equal status, a socialist state is still a stratified govornment, but the difference is the ability of all people to increase their postition in society (no glass ceilings). communism comes once all people have embraced this opportunity and are equals because they all have attained the top. as hegel said "the peak of mankind is humanity". so with all humans being equal in their humane perfection, communism becomes the only possibility for such a society.

p.s.(you guys would learn loads by reading kant, hegel, marx and bauer in conjunction with the animal farm, perhaps che too so you have a more open perspective.)

[il-janus]

Boxer is the true hero of the novel. From the beginning he is the sole inspiration of all the animals. The eloquence of Snowball and Squeeler do not have a lasting effect; it is the naive horse with great strength and will that in reality keeps the farm going through its difficulties.

Boxer represents a faithful and hardworking citizen, where in his great simplistic example he serves as an inspiration to the people. Whenever something goes wrong it is not Squeeler's speeches that makes the animal struggle even more, but it is Boxer's favourite phraze "I will work harder". The novel reaches its end with his departure. Their spirit has now gone and the animals have nothing else to fight for. Like any hero, boxer is betrayed, and it is at this stage where all animals can fully understand that they were constantly being betrayed themselves.

Orwell depicts Boxer as the only good leader in the novel. He does not lead the citizens through totalitarian governments, and he never enforces any law or ideal. Boxer unconsciously knows from the beginning that retirement age will never come true, yet he struggles to the end to elevate his love for his "country". He does not question, nor can he engage in philosophical arguments, but his will and love stand clearly in contrast with the corrupt totalitarian government that leads them.

[il-janus]

why wouldn't this work, if you read marx you would discover that he felt that communism would not happen on its own, but as a direct result of a socialist society, which is the eventuality of a capitalist system. you see, with the purpose of capitalism being to serve yourself, (social-darwinism) the gap between the rich and poor increases steadily. this results in one of two things, the poor getting so big percentage wise that a revolution happens b/c they are unable to survive with the current condition (result: reordering of society with workers in control... also called socialism), or the rich end up putting into place a social welfare program (the beginnings of an eventually socialist society). already you can see the gap b/w rich and poor increasing as well as a number of countries adopting social welfare programs. i think you miss the point of communism truth be told. b/c the point of a socialist state is to offer equal opportunity not equal status, a socialist state is still a stratified govornment, but the difference is the ability of all people to increase their postition in society (no glass ceilings). communism comes once all people have embraced this opportunity and are equals because they all have attained the top. as hegel said "the peak of mankind is humanity". so with all humans being equal in their humane perfection, communism becomes the only possibility for such a society.

p.s.(you guys would learn loads by reading kant, hegel, marx and bauer in conjunction with the animal farm, perhaps che too so you have a more open perspective.)[/QUOTE]


I believe that communisim can never work. Its basic idea is equality. Can you define equality? Because I believe that equality is one of those abstract nouns that can never be defined. Whats equal for you, may not be equal for me. It will only end up in Animal Farm's most popular quote: "All Animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

[Triskele]

Boxer is the true hero of the novel. From the beginning he is the sole inspiration of all the animals. The eloquence of Snowball and Squeeler do not have a lasting effect; it is the naive horse with great strength and will that in reality keeps the farm going through its difficulties.

Boxer represents a faithful and hardworking citizen, where in his great simplistic example he serves as an inspiration to the people. Whenever something goes wrong it is not Squeeler's speeches that makes the animal struggle even more, but it is Boxer's favourite phraze "I will work harder". The novel reaches its end with his departure. Their spirit has now gone and the animals have nothing else to fight for. Like any hero, boxer is betrayed, and it is at this stage where all animals can fully understand that they were constantly being betrayed themselves.

Orwell depicts Boxer as the only good leader in the novel. He does not lead the citizens through totalitarian governments, and he never enforces any law or ideal. Boxer unconsciously knows from the beginning that retirement age will never come true, yet he struggles to the end to elevate his love for his "country". He does not question, nor can he engage in philosophical arguments, but his will and love stand clearly in contrast with the corrupt totalitarian government that leads them.


yes! yes! yes! boxer is a perfect example of someone who embraced a socialist culture, he is hardworking and selfless, but the culture changed to a totalitarian regime and his hardworking and kind ethos was no longer an esential attribute, and his strength caused the dictators(pigs) to use up his strength to further their own needs, an that became the end of boxer. society must advance for the individual to stand a chance, elsewhys the individual must employ the praxis of their ideologis and force society to change.

[juliagoolia]

Il-janus and Triskele- you do realize that this is a 9th grade discussion, right?

[CheyRose]

no no i LOVE Julia more!!!

[juliagoolia]

:blush: :ladysman:

[Triskele]

why wouldn't this work, if you read marx you would discover that he felt that communism would not happen on its own, but as a direct result of a socialist society, which is the eventuality of a capitalist system. you see, with the purpose of capitalism being to serve yourself, (social-darwinism) the gap between the rich and poor increases steadily. this results in one of two things, the poor getting so big percentage wise that a revolution happens b/c they are unable to survive with the current condition (result: reordering of society with workers in control... also called socialism), or the rich end up putting into place a social welfare program (the beginnings of an eventually socialist society). already you can see the gap b/w rich and poor increasing as well as a number of countries adopting social welfare programs. i think you miss the point of communism truth be told. b/c the point of a socialist state is to offer equal opportunity not equal status, a socialist state is still a stratified govornment, but the difference is the ability of all people to increase their postition in society (no glass ceilings). communism comes once all people have embraced this opportunity and are equals because they all have attained the top. as hegel said "the peak of mankind is humanity". so with all humans being equal in their humane perfection, communism becomes the only possibility for such a society.

[/QUOTE=il-janus]p.s.(you guys would learn loads by reading kant, hegel, marx and bauer in conjunction with the animal farm, perhaps che too so you have a more open perspective.) [/QUOTE]


I believe that communisim can never work. Its basic idea is equality. Can you define equality? Because I believe that equality is one of those abstract nouns that can never be defined. Whats equal for you, may not be equal for me. It will only end up in Animal Farm's most popular quote: "All Animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"[/QUOTE]

yes, but it is in direct progression from socialism, which is a class based society. so through education, employment, pro-rated fines and welfare programs the govornment offers equal opportunity, it is up to the individual to advance himself. as marx said "the praxis of philosophical thought oft contradicts itself". to me this means that actions that we thought about beforehand don't neccisarily mean that the result of those actions coicides with the ideologies theoretically used for the actions employment. the idividual must be free to follow their own path in life. the human ethos is defined by decisions, you are what you think. so if all humans are equal, they all must freely choose this state, which is why socialism, or a social welfare state must come first.

[ben lurie]

i agree with what il-janus was saying about how what may be equal to one person is not neccesarily what another person considers equality. But heres an interesting question...Do people even WANT equality? I have to go now so i dont have time to say anything about it but tell me wut u think

[Triskele]

i think that equality is an idea that can be applied to any area of life, the thing is, socialists aren't trying to enforce equality, just begin everyones life with the same opportunity. i do think that many people don't strive for equality, but more for a life, as long as everyone has a happy existence, nobody would care if another had a better car.

[Triskele]

Il-janus and Triskele- you do realize that this is a 9th grade discussion, right?

yup, and i am in high school too (albeit a senior). this really isn't that advanced, just wikipedia socialism and you can talk intelligently about this stuff,( i have done other reading but wikipedia offers an excellent synopsis)

[jenny16]

hey thanks andrew for answering my questions!!!! Muchas Gracias (as they say it in mexico! hahaha) ok but the whole russian revolution???? what even happened during that?? is the russian revolution like Animal Farm, but not really animal farm??? wow, i really sound like an idiot! oh well guess i was born that way! :goof:

[juliagoolia]

Triskele- Sorry, that was a stupid thing to say. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion and clearing things up for those who do not understand. I guess I was just getting a bit overwhelmed by all of the long posts. Again, I apologize.

[juliagoolia]

yes, but it is in direct progression from socialism, which is a class based society. so through education, employment, pro-rated fines and welfare programs the govornment offers equal opportunity, it is up to the individual to advance himself. as marx said "the praxis of philosophical thought oft contradicts itself". to me this means that actions that we thought about beforehand don't neccisarily mean that the result of those actions coicides with the ideologies theoretically used for the actions employment. the idividual must be free to follow their own path in life. the human ethos is defined by decisions, you are what you think. so if all humans are equal, they all must freely choose this state, which is why socialism, or a social welfare state must come first.

What you are talking about is only possible in a society where everyone is equal to begin with, where everyone has the capability to make any decision and follow through with it. You are not taking into account the different races, genders, salaries, languages, dissabilities, and beliefs that people have, and how those qualities will always cause somebody somewhere to look down upon them. Now, if we were all clones with the same exact features, languages, religions, ideas, and thoughts, we might be able to live in equality. But it would only take one little flaw in any one of those clones to screw things up; they would either be ridiculed and looked down upon by the others, or use their individuality to rise to the top. We are not clones- we are human beings- and as long as we remain human, perfect equality will never be possible.

[Triskele]

What you are talking about is only possible in a society where everyone is equal to begin with, where everyone has the capability to make any decision and follow through with it. You are not taking into account the different races, genders, salaries, languages, dissabilities, and beliefs that people have, and how those qualities will always cause somebody somewhere to look down upon them. Now, if we were all clones with the same exact features, languages, religions, ideas, and thoughts, we might be able to live in equality. But it would only take one little flaw in any one of those clones to skrew things up; they would either be ridiculed and looked down upon by the others, or use their individuality to rise to the top. We are not clones- we are human beings- and as long as we remain human, perfect equality will never be possible.


the purpose of a socialist govornment is to equalize these factors, or at least limit their influence so that they don't have a crippling grip on peoples lives. you see, read up on social welfare govornments in northern europe. the EU, and skandinavian countries are making increadible progress in equalizing these areas. the concept of communism is to celebrate our unique qualities. no utopean socialist ever called for uniformity, just equality, or at least the potential for it. two people can lead very different lives, and have very different ideas and still have relatively similar economic freedoms...

[Triskele]

Triskele- Sorry, that was a stupid thing to say. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion and clearing things up for those who do not understand. I guess I was just getting a bit overwhelmed by all of the long posts. Again, I apologize.

its all good, i suppose i am getting a bit off topic, but since its relavent to the book i suppose its ok. way to go on the response, well said, and an idea worth considering even if i don't agree with its message (slightly pessimistic)

also, since you clearly don't view communism as a possibility, what kind of govornment would you employ in place of capitalism (which is an economic system based on the gap b/w rich and poor)

[ben lurie]

I think that if communism or a government based off of it were to ever work, you would need to start from ground zero. you could not take america and say BAM!!! your all equal. Again i think you would need a select group of individuals that are first and foremost intelligent and for lack of a better word, nice. I kind of think that people do not really want to be equal. On a cultural level, a religious level and individual people do not always crave equality. Think of what your life might be like with everyone equal, all races and all religions. It would be good but then again you have uneducated nasty people equal with intelligent, honest and nice people. Somesort of clensing (i know its an evil word) would have to take place. Some people just shouldnt be equal to others, like nasty people. but then again, is it our society that creates these nasty people because of the inequalities and the gap b/w rich and poor and race. I believe that if a country could begin new, with select people, that is the only way communism would work.

[juliagoolia]

Think of what your life might be like with everyone equal, all races and all religions. It would be good but then again you have uneducated nasty people equal with intelligent, honest and nice people.

Ben- I do not think that an uneducated, nasty person could ever be considered equal to an intelligent, honest nice person. The nice person would have a beter job because of their intelligence, a better salary because of their superior job, and more friends because of their honesty and kindness. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but your last post seems to follow the idea that people are automatically equal if you tell them they are. Sadly, this is not the case. Humans tend to pick out all of a person's qualities, both good and bad, and then proceed to place them either above or below themselves on the social ladder. Don't ask me why- it's human nature.

[juliagoolia]

But heres an interesting question...Do people even WANT equality?

It depends on who the people are. If it is a dictator you're talking about, then odviously not- they want to be in charge of EVERYTHING. On the other hand, African Americans put up a major struggle to be freed from slavery and treated as equals in a "white" society. Everything changes depending on the time, the place, and the individual.

Lets make this a little more interesting- Do YOU (and by this I mean anyone personally) want, or even believe in, equality? Why or why not?

[baileyboo]

ooh good question jules!

i believe in equality, but only to an extent.
If your question asks if i believe in it considering our world and current government/living/people situatuion equal, no. [america has yet to have a non white male as president, discrimination still occurs, as well as genocide (most recently: darfur) etc.]

The idea of equality (not necessarily communism) is thought of and talked about, but has it really been put into action? Sure, groups of people are working towards it ["it" = no segregation/racism/sexism/inequality], but in comparism to the millions who do not or cannot do much about it ...it seems to be more of a distant dream.

[baileyboo]

and in regards to ben's question;

i believe that most people want equality, again, possibly only to an extent. how could we progress and get anywhere at all if we were to have no leaders to make decisions (still using citizen input as a major basis for decisions and backing up their choices however), no teachers, doctors, janitorial/public clean up even ?? if everyone were of equal status and education level (the latter is pretty unlikely) how would we ever move forward?
i think that yes, people are different and are treated with differing amounts of respect and whatnot, and that is okay to a limit. everyone deserves respect, and everyone deserves some education, safety, etc. like maslow's theory. i believe that EVERYONE should have the bottom 3 elements before we can even think about going any farther.
we proclaim to be a melting pot ... where everyone is given equal opportunities. but is that really what happens in america?

[ben lurie]

I honestly like capitalism, to a point. Not all the stories of "i am came to america 20 years ago with nothing and now im a millionaire" are fake. There are a lot of possibilities in this country, though things DO need to be changed. I don't think that communism is the answer, not yet at least. There is a lot of social reform needed before people should even think about trying to make a huge country like the U.S. a communist, or for that matter, changing our government at all. I think that we shoiuld work on improving our current system and limiting the gap between the rich and the poor, instead of dreaming about things that won't happen in our lifetime. it is important because every change we make that will limit the gap between the rich and the poor or inequality will help future generations modify our government even more, and eventually build a more socialist society. I think my vocab might be wrong sometimes, but i havent been checking out wikipedia.

[Lexey D.J.]

I do not believe that the way our country works can be changed to a better system, because there are all sorts of opinions, and eventhough I may no agree with some others opinions, there will be no time when everyone in our country or in the world will be able to get along. Democracy is the best system for this country and I beleive that it would also work well for other countries too, but human greed and selfishness will always be an issue.

[Lexey D.J.]

I cannot think of a better system then democracy. If anyone has any ideas in how to help our govrnment, please comment.

[RAMM]

I also believe democracy is a great system of government for this contry, but i think there are small changes we can make to improve our government that will work with the seelfish and the greedy. For example I think we sould be able to decide where our tax money gose so we will pay for what we want instead of what th government wants.

[Lexey D.J.]

I cannot think of a better system then democracy. If anyone has any ideas in how to help our govrnment, please comment.

[Lexey D.J.]

I apologise for my last comment, that was a mistake. I think that Nicole's idea is great, with being able to put your tax money where you choose we are able to feel confident that our money is being put in the place where we favor the most. But if this is done how will we actually know for sure that the government is putting our money in the desired places. My point is that no matter what we do to change or, what we think is to help the system we have currently, there will always be disagreements based on the way we were raised or the communities that we live in.

[DHarley]

Commenting on Nicoles post, if everyone chose where our tax money goes to then only popular things would get money and things people were against but were needed would fail to get enough money and would die out, so even if something is important it may not be popular.

[Lexey D.J.]

Reguarding Julia's comment from yesterday, I do not believe in equality, or that it even excists in a community or school. i believe that the only way it may excist is in the mind. You tell or show people how to treat you and if you believe that you are of equal status to everyone around you no matter how much you differ from one another, they will treat you as you are equal

[RAMM]

That is true Davidson but, we have to vote to pass laws that will need tax money so already the public desides that what is important is popular but I understand what you are saying

[RAMM]

Democracy is a great way of government but i believe the government has changed it the same way the pigs changed communism in Animal Farm. By definition Democracy is controll of a group by the majority of it's members, the practice or principles of social equality. I agree with Lexey that there is not enough equality in the US. I think the main reason we are not socialy equal is we are not economicaly equal.

[Lexey D.J.]

Davidson brings up a good point. When I think about taxes I think that they go to jail, schools, roads and social security. I do not think that a small portion of taxes may go to the arts- museums, conventions and national parks. Many people may be unaware that taxes go to support these, museums and national parks I believe are extremely important and if no one were to support these than that would be unfortunate.

[RAMM]

I also think those are important, but if I paid taxes I think I would contribute money to them.

[RAMM]

You know what is funny, our government is the same as the pigs

[superkristen120]

i agree with nicole and lexey. i think that, like what niki stated, we should be able to decide where our tax money goes and what it goes to instead of the gouvernment choosing where (or who) the money goes to. To what lexey said about greed and selfishness......No matter how much we or anyone changes the government people will always be against it. If we were all born in a perfect gouvernment where at first everyone agreed and there was no aguments, something would "click" in someones head and then they would decide to rebel and they would convince people to join them; which would cause the same thing that is happening today. People will always disagree with eachother. If we did not disagree then we would not be human.

[Lexey D.J.]

Nicole, there are so many things that tax money goes to and one problem is how would someone be able to choose how to split up their tax money evenly or in the appropriate way. Another problem- I'm sure that the majority of the population are not aware of all the different places taxes are placed and so how would we ever be able to make sure that all of the places benefited by taxes receive the amount of money needed.

[RAMM]

Lexey I know there are lazy people in this contry who don't care where their money gose so the government could use their money for the things tat have not been paid for

[RAMM]

Lexey, I think it could be like voting, you check the ones you want money to go to then maby, if you cared you could prioriize them so the government can deside where the money gose.

[superkristen120]

i have changed my opinion on the tax issue that was discussed on this and the last page. i agree with lexey and davidson. niki i think that our gouvernment is like thanimal farm. there are some people who think that they are better just because they may be smarter than most of the people; so that puts them on a higher ranking of our social ladder in our society. then there are people who are like boxer. they just want to work and do not disagree with anything that the gouvernment says. that leaves everyone else. that everyone else is the people who work because they have to to survive. they only work because if they did not then they would not survive and then the population would decrease and then more of the people on the upper levels of the social ladder would have to work. there are also other people in the 'everyone else' catagory.

[DHarley]

But doesnt it make sense that the smarter people rule and the people who want to work work?

[Hannahpanda]

sry but going back to julias comment about equality and whether it really does exist is basically by opinion only there is no way that I think we can decide whether equality exists at all but I do feel that equality does exist but on levels and only on those levels......if ten people get the same education then they will probably get the same ranking job and will most likely get the same pay if they apply themselves....but then again if you look at certain jobs like teachers for example one that have been there longer get paid more and can stay longer and teachers who haven't been there that long even if there better that the older teachers get paid less and are the first fired of need be so there is some levels of equality but it depends on what you feel about equality......please comment if you have a different opinion

[Hannahpanda]

But doesnt it make sense that the smarter people rule and the people who want to work work?

i dont agree completely i think that its people who want to rule and people who want to work work because just because someone is smart doesn't mean that they dont want to work or that they dont have to work and you dont necessarily have to be smart to rule you just to have a good idea but you can be smart to rule its just what you decide.....look at Peter from Enders Game he wanted to rule so he came up with a good idea and gaind power

[Hannahpanda]

ok i know that they probably arent that similar but the do have governments that they are trying to overthrow and then ealize that the original one was porbably better so please comment

[hschroepfer22]

Hey everybody! I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas/ Holidays!!
As for Animal Farm--I didn't particularly like this novel mostly because I'm not into politics so I wasn't able to connect it as easily as most of you. However, I do agree with most of your comments. Davidson-I have to disagree with you on your latest comment, however. I think that is why we have such a problem in our government, because why aren't the people who like to work not fit for ruling? Just because they aren't as smart?.....it doesn't make sense to me. As long as they have good plans and good leadership skills--thats what I think qualifies an animal/ person to be a great leader. Then again, I do agree entirely with the foreshadowing. I agree that from the very start the pigs assumed leadership and the animals accepted it without question. I was very angry with this.

[hschroepfer22]

It was kind-of funny....from the very beginning I knew that the animals would never be equal...especially with the pigs in control...
If you think about it...can any government ever be perfect? Or even equal? Or fair? I know there will be disagreement on what is a "perfect" government, but lets just say a "fair" government. I don't think there can be a "perfect" or even a "fair" government. There will always be someone who assumes leadership, or there will always be some glitch or problem to the system of a government. Please comment if you disagree with me.

[hschroepfer22]

p.s. Sorry if my latest comment has already been brought up. ("perfect" government)

[hschroepfer22]

Another thing--It made me so mad that the pigs could influence and change anything they wanted over the animals. For example, towards the end of the book we read that the pig (forgot his name) took the sheep aside each day to teach them a new motto, "Four legs good, two legs better!", and they didn't know really what was going on. They didn't realize that the pigs were taking complete control, siding with the humans, and furthermore didn't do anything about it. We also read throughout the book that the commandments would change each time a PIG would disobey them (not any other animal I might add, for if any other animal disobeyed them they would be slaughtered!!)

[hschroepfer22]

I have a question....it may be kind-of stupid...but since when could the humans understand what the animals (pigs) were saying? If I remember correctly, at the beginning the humans could not understand the animals, and by the end the pigs were having conversations in meetings with the humans....?

[miles]

I think that the pigs taught themselves to talk from the books they found in the house

[Lexey D.J.]

As far as when the pigs disobeyed the commandments were changed and when other animals did they were slaughtered. That is how the world is run today, but maybe not to the same degree. Today famous people are treated so much differently than the rest of the population and I beleive that this is one reason why our world is not equal. Famous people are let off with a simple warning when they may speed on the highway, while the general public is forced to pay a wopping 50$ at the least. Movie stars and athletes beleive that they can do what ever they want because we let them do what they want, for example Coby Bryant. They are never called on when they are being selfish or stingy, wich they always are. They and we act like they are the best thing that ever hit the earth, just as the pigs were treated, they thought that they should be treated on a higher level than the rest of the farm so the rest of the farm did treat them as if they were better. Even Benjamin, he new what was going to happen all along, I understand why he never said anything out of the fear of being slaughtered, but the stupidity of the rest of the farm was intolerable.

[hschroepfer22]

Lexey--I agree entirely....at first I thought to myself "How can the other animals not realize that the pigs have complete control over them?" but I guess they just don't have the intelligence to figure it out. I was also really mad that the ones who did figure it out didn't do anything. But then again, I guess it is understandable after the series of slaughtering done to the animals who did something wrong.

[miles]

I also agree with Lexey. Celebrities think they can do whatever they wany because they have the money to pay for it. The pigs think they can do whatever they want because there isn't anyone to stop then, because any animal that objects would be considered a traitor and slaugtered instantly

[miles]

Also what Heidi said about the slaughtering, boxer was the only one strong enough to kill the dogs, but his motto was "Napolean is always right," so he would never rebel against the pigs

[miles]

the animals thought that they couls trust what the pigs said, but didn't relize their mistake until it was too late

[Lexey D.J.]

Exactly, and the reason any animal that objects would be considered a traitor is because the animals on the farm started out believing that overthrowing the farm was a good idea and they were being brain washed into the fact that it was still a good system they had going. The sheep and most of the farm would believe anything that Napoleon said and that is also what happens in our country today, there are tons of people who beleive everything they see on comercials and that is exactly what happens in Animal Farm.

[hschroepfer22]

Ya and that's just it that makes me so mad...and our government can never work with situations like this happening. I wish WE could run the government....;)

[miles]

and yet this is happening in our government right now. so people believe whatever they are told, like the situation in Iraq. Some people strongly think that we are winning, and some think just the opposite

[Conn]

but thats just it no matter what there is always corruption in the government along with rumors and other stuff that our world and government would function a lot better without

[miles]

and its impossible to completely get rid of corruption, there will always be some form of it, as shown in Animal Farm. They thought they had the "perfect" system of government, but its leeaders were corrupt

[hschroepfer22]

Ya I totally agree that there will always be corruption in a system of government. But I do think that it could definitely be better than how it is in the book or how our current govrenmnet is.

[keannabug7]

intro: ok so on a first note i didnt really connect with the book as heidi (i think) said; im not really into politics either. The whole part of how each animal represented someone in history kind-of confused me more because i dont know much about Russian History..

But anyways..
i dont understand why they animals could all of a sudden rule over the farm. if the pigs hated being cared for my the humans why didnt they take charge before? i know that they only thought about it after major had that dream but seriously that wouldnt really happen since humans were in charge before they could still over power the animals with weapons and machines so i just dont understand. i mean does the farm symbolize like a city or whatever in Russia???

[jgross]

i think every thing you guys just said is totally right
Its kind of like if someone is given alot of power they abuse it and make life hell for others.

see you all at school on tuesday

[hschroepfer22]

Ok this comment is similar to Keanna's.....but when the animals took over the farm, to me, it seemed awfully simple....they had a little battle and that was it! They overtook it with no problem! It seemed all-too-easy.....

[jgross]

keanna your totally right

ya i didnt get the book either it isnt my type of book

maybe the farm does symbolize as russia or something it would make sense i guess

would the animals have taken control if the humans had fought back with weapons or would they still have won?

[keannabug7]

yea exactly... are the humans to stupid to realize the ability they have to overcome the animals?
and as heidi said it all happened wat to easy.. u honestly think this would happen it could be won so quickly.?

on a side note: why did they want the humans out? they provided them with food. and when it was animal farm they were woking more and eating less.. was it really the best thing in the long run?

[OdoyleRules]

What was the purpose for George Orwell writing Animal farm??

[OdoyleRules]

Ok, one thing I did not get was if the pigs where trying to get away from humanizing Animal Farm, then why did the pigs learn how to write from a spelling book?!?

This is for Andrewhugs, I never thought of boxer in that sort of symbolism, it made me think does that mean in a communist country there are more "boxers" then "snowballs","napoleons" and "squealers", because the "boxers" think it's for the good of their government to do what their told. While their are few pigs, because there the eduacated ones in the comminity who know how to persuade others in " doing what is right for the country" ?!?!

[keannabug7]

yea exactly.. and why would the pigs start to become exactly wat they thought was bad? (the humans)

[OdoyleRules]

I think Old Majors intentions were good, he was sick of being opressed for his whole life, and wanted to do something about it. After he died everything went hay in hand basket, because the new breed of visionaries controled and manipulated the animals to beleive everyone did an equal shar on making Old Majors "dream" of having a better life a reality.

[XXXsammyXXX]

i agree with keanna i also found it ironic how the pigs turned into exactally what they rebelled against

[DHarley]

Keanna the humans tried to overtake the farm twice and it did not work, but the humans also though that the farm would fail and all the animals would die so the humans did not feel the need to attack again.

[keannabug7]

well ya david i understand that. but did the humans try the same thing twice? because i know if i did something and it didnt work i would try again in a different way. but on the second note the pigs were becoming like humans ! right???

[paulteach]

You will understand Keanna - I promise you will- Use this "chat" to understand the book fully - then we will go over Russian Revolution...Hang in there.

The rest of you ----Have I told you how brilliant and cool you are lately? Well after hours of watching you chat here - DAMN YOUR SMOOTH! Keep up the good work - only you guys could pull off such a wonderfully diverse seminar rich with EDUCATION!

[XXXsammyXXX]

happy new years!!!

[k_d_20]

when napoleon says "i will give you the same toast as before, but in a different form. Fill your glasses to the brim. Gentlemen, here is my toast: To the prosperity of The Manor Farm!" (pg. 138)

does anyone think as i do myself that when he says this its kinda like when people say dont look at the glass half full so its like hes saying take in all this information and all the information i have given you. does anyone else think that he might be saying that? and what is that called not symbolizing but what?

[Triskele]

I think that if communism or a government based off of it were to ever work, you would need to start from ground zero. you could not take america and say BAM!!! your all equal. Again i think you would need a select group of individuals that are first and foremost intelligent and for lack of a better word, nice. I kind of think that people do not really want to be equal. On a cultural level, a religious level and individual people do not always crave equality. Think of what your life might be like with everyone equal, all races and all religions. It would be good but then again you have uneducated nasty people equal with intelligent, honest and nice people. Somesort of clensing (i know its an evil word) would have to take place. Some people just shouldnt be equal to others, like nasty people. but then again, is it our society that creates these nasty people because of the inequalities and the gap b/w rich and poor and race. I believe that if a country could begin new, with select people, that is the only way communism would work.


i greatly agree, but the process i think is in action. more social welfare programs are being put into place than ever before. it is a long and slow workers revolution, but its happening!!! it is not necessary to create anew... just reform what already is with the people you have.

[Triskele]

You will understand Keanna - I promise you will- Use this "chat" to understand the book fully - then we will go over Russian Revolution...Hang in there.

The rest of you ----Have I told you how brilliant and cool you are lately? Well after hours of watching you chat here - DAMN YOUR SMOOTH! Keep up the good work - only you guys could pull off such a wonderfully diverse seminar rich with EDUCATION!

but how can you first understand the book, then the politics, especially when the book is inherantly political

[Triskele]

i agree with keanna i also found it ironic how the pigs turned into exactally what they rebelled against

"the praxis of philosophical thought oft contradicts itself" truth in action my friend... that is what marx realized, extreemists go against their own morals

[xIAxEllax]

wow, tht was really deep. I think that the characters in animal farm can relate to society today even thought this book is over fifty years old. It teaches that we as a people cannot function without some kind of guidence, but when some of us become glutonous for power, the whole system set up that was perfectly balanced, is now crumbling apart right before our very eyes. there were only a few animals that realized what was happening but before they knew it, they were following the rest of the group and were sucked into the void by the other's stupity. that is why when in doubt, think of what you know to be right, and what you know to be easy, 'cause it will get you into more truoble than it's really worth.

xoxoEllaxoxo

[xIAxEllax]

oh, and here is a little someting to think about and i would love any comments anyone has. Why do people work so hard and fight for so long when in the end, it doesn't even matter?!

[xIAxEllax]

i mean, what did the animals gain by working so hard to overthrown the humans when the pigs could gain all control and screw up the system?THEY GAIN NOTHING!

so, jst like in AF, control was given to those that seemed most capable when really, the pigs were just puppets which eventually caused them to corrupt he whole system. Just something to think about.

xoxoEllaxoxo

[XXXsammyXXX]

oh, and here is a little someting to think about and i would love any comments anyone has. Why do people work so hard and fight for so long when in the end, it doesn't even matter?!

ella is that a line from linkin park's "in the end"?

[XXXsammyXXX]

i think the animals worked so hard in the rebellion to make life better for the future generations

[hschroepfer22]

Wow, Ella, way to put it!! Your comment just about summed up the point of the whole book!! Nice job!! O and to answer your question..... I have no idea....It's just human nature.....maybe we just get so bored that its all we have.......?......but I'm not sure.......comment please......

[xIAxEllax]

i find it rather appaling that people can't seem to think for themselves these days. :flare: i mean think about, people would rather follow someone that is incompitent just because they can speak on their level, rather than follow someone who has a point(and a brain).cough*BUSH AND KERRY!coughcough* lay religon aside and fous on what is actually important, not to say that religion isn't important, i just find that some people take it to the extreme and end up screwing other people over. In AF, the animals had a good point and a good system in place, the pigs just took it to far and ended up messing everthing up.

[hschroepfer22]

Ya I totally agree....the plan for equality among animals in the book was a really good plan!!! And I totally agree that the pigs took it way too far and ruined it!!! If only Boxer was in charge.......

[Logos]

Please do not discuss current politics here

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2982

any further such posts will be edited/removed.

[Lexey D.J.]

Heidi, if Boxer were in charge nothing would happen. Boxer is the animal that went with the flow of everything, there is no way a person or animal like Boxer could be in charge because nothing would get done. In order to be proactive a person who takes charge needs to lead, and that is exactly what Napoleon did.

[Triskele]

oh, and here is a little someting to think about and i would love any comments anyone has. Why do people work so hard and fight for so long when in the end, it doesn't even matter?!

well, that is the million dollar question, an existentialist would probably say it doesn't matter, it can't matter, and so you must either make your own meaning out of life, or die in hopless despair. i myself find this somewhat dispiriting and so would suggest that it does matter and it is merely a question of how much you try to change the world we live in that determines your worth. Boxer sees this and despite the political atmosphere on the farm, continues to work, in the end he fails but not because of what he did, more because the lack of support from other animals

[hschroepfer22]

I wonder what happened after the book....?...Did the pigs continue to run the farm and did the other animal's lives continue to worsen? Did the pigs continue to trade and side with the humans? Or perhaps the other animals (not pigs) finally figured it out and are fighting back.........please comment on your opinion of what happened after the end of this book.....................

[Lexey D.J.]

I beleive that the system the farm was running on finally died down, that is why Benjamin always went with the flow because he new that systems like that never stuck around for a long time. I think the rest of the farm finally fought back and put an end to Napoleon.

[paulteach]

Dear Triskele,
As the teacher of these wonderful freshmen, we read the book, just finished it in fact. I like (as well as discussed in any educational class) my students to dive into a new world without "the real happenings" as it would not only ruin the book, but relate terms and ideas to Russia and "communism". Why not first grapple with the idea that "all people and animals CAN be equal" and find fault in that form of government...before being told the fault...Thank you for your imput - I will make my comments to my students.

[juliagoolia]

Heidi- In response to your last post, I like to believe that Animal Farm is a vicious cycle: The animals rebel, the pigs take control, the government goes corrupt, the pigs turn into humans, repeat. I mean, why else would the book end when the pigs turn into humans? In a few years, when a new batch of non-human pigs come around, the animals will get the idea into their heads and overthrow the cruel, thoughtless humans that rule over them. They will form what they think to be an "equal" society, and the entire story will repeat itsself. Pretty cool, huh? :)

[carlie.p.onfire]

wow. i hadn't really liked the book. butafter seeing this, i have to say, i certianly missed something. maybe i'll go back and reread it!
i wonder, ifit wasn't for the pigs, would any of it happened though? or would the other animals continued to work for Jones? or would any of the others taken charge?
and another question, way off subject, but could humans have lived without animals?

[keannabug7]

hey mrs. paul does tht mean im not brilliant? cuz u said the rest of you.. lol
well yea thanx and i have a question for everyone tht can help me
didnt the pigs say not to read and drink or do anything liek the humans did??

[xIAxEllax]

keanna, i think that the pigs did say that they could not read or drink the way that the humans did and they did it in such a way that most of the animals didn't quite know what to say in retaliation as they still thought that what the pigs said was law. Unbeknownst to the animals, the pigs were going back on their word in order to benefit themselves. I could relate this to a certain situation that might give a better picture of what im trying to say, but because "some people are more equal than others" im not obliged to do so. much love.

[xIAxEllax]

Please do not discuss current politics here

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2982

any further such posts will be edited/removed.

this is why im not obliged to say more:banana:

[k_d_20]

the quote "some people are more equal than others" what does that really mean? because some people can argue that but they might use religion how like "every one is equal in gods eyes" so mabye it depends on the eyes of someone wich sees everything else differently I know we have a bunch of people with many different perspectives or point of view 'mitchell, bailey' cough cough j/k but I think that if we were ask everyone in our class I think that they would think most people or all are equal in which ways? im not sure.

like in animal farm the pigs are "more equal" than the others and the humans, because i bet if boxer told them "hey im like you and I do more stuff than you to help. You dont really do anything" then all the others could rebell against the pigs just because one animal knew they should be treated the same

[skipzorg13]

I think that boxer only knew hard work, so that is why he worked so hard not to relax later but because that was all he new.

[skipzorg13]

I wonder why napolean stole the windmill idea from snowball if he himself was against the idea ?

[skipzorg13]

i really dont think that even if the windmill got completed, the farm animals other than the pigs would really have benifited from it. and even if ithey did benifit from it it would ever be worth all the hard ship and death?

[ben lurie]

Someone said something about Animal Farm relating to politics today, but i think that it could relate to anywhere, anytime, any government for the last 4000 years. People have not changed dramatically in 4 millenia, our instincts and, i dont know how to say this but the deep lying forces that compell us to put ourselves first, those emotions that create greed, hate and love, are still there. People have always fought about power, who had the wealth, who did the work, etc. For more than 4k years, probably close to 100k years. WE NEED TO MAKE SOME PROGRESS!!!!!!

[ben lurie]

Or will progress EVER be made even if humans live for another 10mil years. Are we so set in our ways that our very genetics will have to be completley altered before we can all work together and prosper?

[ben lurie]

In response to Ms. Pauls original questions...the one about satire.
I dont think you can really consider this book to be satirical. The book is sad on a lot of levels, the first of them being whats actually happening to the actual animals on the farm. I was really sad when i saw what was going to happen to the animals, and then what eventually did was just terrible. Then you realize that what happened to the animals happened to 100 million russians. You develop a kind of affection for the animals that i dont think you would develop if animal farm was a nonfiction book about the russian revolution and that affection really ddrives the point home.

[ben lurie]

Heidi- In response to your last post, I like to believe that Animal Farm is a vicious cycle: The animals rebel, the pigs take control, the government goes corrupt, the pigs turn into humans, repeat. I mean, why else would the book end when the pigs turn into humans? In a few years, when a new batch of non-human pigs come around, the animals will get the idea into their heads and overthrow the cruel, thoughtless humans that rule over them. They will form what they think to be an "equal" society, and the entire story will repeat itsself. Pretty cool, huh? :)

I think that is probably true, but here is another variation on it. The pigs were able to overthrow the actual humans because of majors inspirational teachings And because of how badly Jones ran the farm. When the pigs took over and became nasty humans, things were a little different. There was no moral leader that would lead any pigs to revolt against the original nasty piggies, and if one did emerge, the nasty piggies would eliminate it. Secondly, the pigs would never allow for there to be any "non-human" pigs. They would grow up taught by pigs and have themselves brainwashed. Also, the pigs had a pretty sweet life, not working at getting all the food. The "non-human" pigs would have no reason to rebel. Only characters like Benjamin or other fairly intelligent animals that werent under the pigs controlw oudl have the chance to overthrow the pigs. They would also need the support of a Boxer, someone powerful enough to defeat the pigs physically.

[Hannahpanda]

I think that the main question that we need to ask is would this have happened without the pigs or not? Are the pigs really bad if the other animals wouldn't have done it without them?

P.S. HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!!!!!!


by the way i agree with you ben about the dialup

[Triskele]

Dear Triskele,
As the teacher of these wonderful freshmen, we read the book, just finished it in fact. I like (as well as discussed in any educational class) my students to dive into a new world without "the real happenings" as it would not only ruin the book, but relate terms and ideas to Russia and "communism". Why not first grapple with the idea that "all people and animals CAN be equal" and find fault in that form of government...before being told the fault...Thank you for your imput - I will make my comments to my students.

thank you for that insight, i do question however your connection b/w communism and Russia, is it not also true that communism could be applied to the EU, China, many south american countries, southern asia, socio-economic theory, as well as many other products of the utopian socialists theory. the book i believe was written during the time of the Cold War, but should that force the perspective into propagandistic intrigue? the concept that all people and animals can be free is the basis of the social utopians arguments and any argument for such an optimistic idea(whether possible or not) likely came from some of them... just a thought, forgive me but i like to think,

p.s.(thanks for putting your class in this forum, it has made for an excellent thread)

[Triskele]

the quote "some people are more equal than others" what does that really mean? because some people can argue that but they might use religion how like "every one is equal in gods eyes" so mabye it depends on the eyes of someone wich sees everything else differently I know we have a bunch of people with many different perspectives or point of view 'mitchell, bailey' cough cough j/k but I think that if we were ask everyone in our class I think that they would think most people or all are equal in which ways? im not sure.

like in animal farm the pigs are "more equal" than the others and the humans, because i bet if boxer told them "hey im like you and I do more stuff than you to help. You dont really do anything" then all the others could rebell against the pigs just because one animal knew they should be treated the same

thats the clincher, in order to be "more equal", the pigs have to continiue to hold the popular support. thats why democracy is the "govornment of the masses", and communism is in a way an extremely pure form of democracy, all equal say. so the pigs power is only through popularity. the others could rebel, it is the pigs duty in order to retain power to convince them to do otherwise

[Triskele]

Or will progress EVER be made even if humans live for another 10mil years. Are we so set in our ways that our very genetics will have to be completley altered before we can all work together and prosper?

yes, already we live in a more humane society than one hundred years ago, yes, atrocities still happen, but the very fact that there is a worldwide outcry when they are descovered(even if it takes while) shows that humans care more for other societies, and other people more than ever, we still have a long way to go, but its a decent start,

[memyself&gabby]

hey guys i definently agree with mayia about foreshadowing with the whole milk and apples deal. when they first start to plan all were equal...so what makes the pigs any better right? ;)

[memyself&gabby]

yes, already we live in a more humane society than one hundred years ago, yes, atrocities still happen, but the very fact that there is a worldwide outcry when they are descovered(even if it takes while) shows that humans care more for other societies, and other people more than ever, we still have a long way to go, but its a decent start,

i am not sure i agree with you. when you look at the world now-a-days, what makes it different from times of roman conquer? there is still murder and destruction and not to mention war. okay yes it does look less harsh out there but i truely beleive that the government and the world is trying and sucseeding to blind fold us. there is still torture. The world is becoming over... (welmed? that still doesn't sound right), we now have technology which make things different which may make you see things differnet in my opinian.:flare:

[juliagoolia]

I think that is probably true, but here is another variation on it. The pigs were able to overthrow the actual humans because of majors inspirational teachings And because of how badly Jones ran the farm. When the pigs took over and became nasty humans, things were a little different. There was no moral leader that would lead any pigs to revolt against the original nasty piggies, and if one did emerge, the nasty piggies would eliminate it. Secondly, the pigs would never allow for there to be any "non-human" pigs. They would grow up taught by pigs and have themselves brainwashed. Also, the pigs had a pretty sweet life, not working at getting all the food. The "non-human" pigs would have no reason to rebel. Only characters like Benjamin or other fairly intelligent animals that werent under the pigs controlw oudl have the chance to overthrow the pigs. They would also need the support of a Boxer, someone powerful enough to defeat the pigs physically.

Ben- I was interpreting the end of the story to mean that the pigs actually turned into humans. I figured that, if this were the case, time would cause them to forget that they were ever farm animals,and would therefore not treat the new, non-human pigs on their farm any differently than the other animals. However, that would deffinitely be different if the pigs did not change into human form or simply never forgot their lives as pigs.

[memyself&gabby]

I beleive that Boxer represents the uneducated, hard-working class of the social order. He doesn't question why he works he just wants to do it so that he can relax later. Much like a lot of people in our own country.

I completely agree, the author wrote about ONE government stratagy that went bad (comunism), What i do not think he had in mind was that most characters can be related to people in this present day, I mean not the exact characters, but the characteristics of the characters can be related to not just the government but the people in this world.

[ben lurie]

Ben- I was interpreting the end of the story to mean that the pigs actually turned into humans. I figured that, if this were the case, time would cause them to forget that they were ever farm animals,and would therefore not treat the new, non-human pigs on their farm any differently than the other animals. However, that would deffinitely be different if the pigs did not change into human form or simply never forgot their lives as pigs.


But if they actually turned into humans, wouldnt the human pigs have human piglets?

[Triskele]

i am not sure i agree with you. when you look at the world now-a-days, what makes it different from times of roman conquer? there is still murder and destruction and not to mention war. okay yes it does look less harsh out there but i truely beleive that the government and the world is trying and sucseeding to blind fold us. there is still torture. The world is becoming over... (welmed? that still doesn't sound right), we now have technology which make things different which may make you see things differnet in my opinian.:flare:

well, take laws for instance, civil justice has evolved from crucifixion, to hanging, to lethal injection, lynching has become illegal, and the UN is in place to prevent nations from commiting unneccessary acts of war. in ancient times law was in the hands of the population, now it is a system for equal treatment. its true, there is war, destruction, and all manner of bad things, but to say things haven't improved since the days of say... ghengis khan is simply preposterous, now if someone wants to rule the world, say, the bismark, other countries band together not only to create an end to the killing, but also so that this isn't repeated.

[Triskele]

I completely agree, the author wrote about ONE government stratagy that went bad (comunism), What i do not think he had in mind was that most characters can be related to people in this present day, I mean not the exact characters, but the characteristics of the characters can be related to not just the government but the people in this world.

i disagree in part, i think that Orwell disagreed with the "barracks room communism" marx warned against. not that communism is on the whole a bad form of govornment.

[juliagoolia]

But if they actually turned into humans, wouldnt the human pigs havehuman piglets?

NO! The old, human pigs would purchase new, non-human pigs for their farm that would get fat and then be slaughtered for food! That is how a farm works! DUH!

[Triskele]

NO! The old, human pigs would purchase new, non-human pigs for their farm that would get fat and then be slaughtered for food! That is how a farm works! DUH!

unless the new non-human pigs revolted became human and ate the human pigs...

[ben lurie]

Even if the old human pigs did do that, they had such a stranglehold on the farm w. the dogs and had so much authority, the chance of a another rebellion is very remote. The pigs ran a much nastier and tighter shop than jone's did.

[Triskele]

Even if the old human pigs did do that, they had such a stranglehold on the farm w. the dogs and had so much authority, the chance of a another rebellion is very remote. The pigs ran a much nastier and tighter shop than jone's did.

no, b/c once they became human they changed fully into humans so they were not as smart as pigs, thus giving the pigs opportunity to rebel.

[ben lurie]

lol i think were taking that topic a bit tooooo far into the hypothetical....
this is a bit off topic but it has to do with animal farm..the Pravda newspaper and russian communism.....that was squealer. Does anyone know much about the pravda newspaper and its origins, or any other important russian propaganda

[il-janus]

Ben- I was interpreting the end of the story to mean that the pigs actually turned into humans. I figured that, if this were the case, time would cause them to forget that they were ever farm animals,and would therefore not treat the new, non-human pigs on their farm any differently than the other animals. However, that would deffinitely be different if the pigs did not change into human form or simply never forgot their lives as pigs.


I interpreted the end of the story as a simple equation :
pigs = human politicians
Put it the other way round and mathemathically you have the same equation:
human politicians = pigs

I believe that George Orwell subtly wanted to insult human politicians. Well I maybe wrong on this one, but I think it makes sense.

[ben lurie]

ahhhh very clever il-janus..i think thats right, not only because of the equation you made but also because the whole book was a bit of a bash on politicians in general, not just the russian ones

[Triskele]

no, i definitely agree with you on that account, at least partly. i think that G. Orwell wanted to convey that politicians use words as weapons and tools, thus, the only way to judge them is with actions. the insulting part i disagree with for the same reasons i disagree with the concept that communism is bad, it is too simplistic. and ben... what were you alluding to with the Pravda Newspaper?

[ben lurie]

the russian pravda..the newspaper..represents snowball in its earlier times and later sqealer.

[XXXsammyXXX]

pravda meaning truth now isnt that ironic

[pwt13]

(Hello - to all others! I am a teacher and am planning for all my students to get on board here as an assingment and experience. In the next three weeks, there will be much from us - thank you for your patience with my Honors Freshman from North Tahoe High School)

CLASS - Lets get started! This is a great way to learn and use an online "discussion" site that you will use in your futures! Play around with this! I will offer extra credit for the students the utilize this site and can really find their way around it - Good luck and have fun!
Animal Farm - Where might there be foreshadowing in this novel?

i want extra credit. yay!! thank you teacher!!
i found out a reference to animal farm in the music of the english band pink floyd. their album called animals is based on the novel animal farm by george orwell. the songs are named after characters in the book i.e. pigs, dogs, sheep. the lyrics in each song describe describe the character of each animal as interpreted in the book. i think it would be a *great* idea to read the novel once, smoke some weed and listen to the album in order of songs.

peace.

[hschroepfer22]

Hey everybody!
Does anyone know who Vladimir Lenin was in the book?

[Andrewhugs]

Im pretty sure Vladimir is Major......

[bfrygopman]

You have to rememeber that the all of the animals except for the pigs had to work their tails off just to survive. It was not a matter of being stupid, just a matter of not having knowledge (ignorance).
The animals would return from the fields after a hard day work and didn't have the time or energy to think for themselves. It was easier to let the pigs do all the thinking for them.

It is no different than people in today's society, that come home read the newspaper or television news and believe that everything in it is true.
This is why the "sound bite" and "talking points" were invented. The American Democrats use these techinques on a daily basis.






Kristen, I belive that the reason the animals did not suspect the pigs is simply that they were...well, dumb. However, I do believe that some, including Benjamin, did understood what was happening. He probably realized that the other animals would not listen to him if he were to tell them that the pigs were using them all. Also, it was in his nature not to include himself in conversation on the farm. Remember, too, that the animals were forgetful; even when they thought they remembered a commandment as being different or having had better lives in the old days, the pigs always convinced them otherwise. Squealer always read them the "statistics" that proved how much better their lives were without humans, and since they could not remember the time when Jones was in control, they believed him.