Dorian Gray

[IWilKikU]

Ok, when I started this book I was wondering when someone was going to start some discussion on it. Now that I'm finished I realize why no one wanted to talk about it. I hope that I can forget that I ever wasted the week I spent snoring through this one. That being said, it did have its redeeming qualities.

1. Alot of good oneliner quotes from Lord Henry
2. Cool ending (won't reveal it just in case I was the only one who actually read it)
3. uhh.. If anyone can think of more than the first two, you could add your two cents here.

Seriously though, I thought that the book was just a bunch of gay banter between a couple rich boys. The whole vanity/beauty thing was just too far fetched for me. Who honestly is going to be as vein as Dorian? Its unbelievable, and in order for a novel to be good (in my humble opinion) the author has to convince the reader that everything in the book COULD happen in some messed up magical metaphysical way at least. But I just really wasn't buying Wilde's characters. They weren't realistic characters.

[b]

Well,

"The Portrait of Dorian Gray" is, in my honest opinion, by far the most amuzing story that Wilde wrote. In the Romantic world of thoughts, or in literature in general, however, it does not matter if characters or events appear "larger than life", or are not "realistic", my friend. You should not judge a book on that vulgar level, or when you want to approach "literature" like that, I would advise you to focus on contemporary postcololinst crap, for instance that of the recent Nobelprize winner J. M. Coetzee.

What you could try to do, is to derive to what kind of already existing literary realities his work appeals, to understand - and be amuzed by it - better. The life of Dorian Gray, for instance, has some remarkable similarties with the Narcissus-myth, as portraied in Ovid's Metamorhposis. The mellifluous Bohemian culture that Wilde creates and the implications of the transformation of a naive, unharmed boy to a desillusioned devil, reflect on the decadent lifestyle of upper class culture. Victorian lifestyle and pompous literature create some kind of "overeducated", "perverted" and especially "rotten" kind of image, which makes their attempts to attain artistic beauty hypocrite and false. It is the contrast between "beauty on the surface" and "internal unharmedness" that matters. When the final "iste-ego-sum" moment enters and the realisation of this antithese is there, the Melancholy of existance enters your soul.

Narcissus, unable to live with the fact that he loved himself, hence he could not attain that love, commit suicide, "hitting his chest with his marble palms". Narcissus not only changed into a flower, but also into a sculpture, as the comparison implies. Dorian Gray transformed into a painting.

Besides al these "insider jokes" that Wilde makes, it is also just very cleverly written, perhaps even in accordance with Wilde's love for mellifuous, almost idyllic aethetics. It is very stunning - indeed the expressions of this Lord Henry are almost as quotable as the quotes from Fight Club (the movie) - and I really enjoyed to read it. Literature, and especially non-contemporary literature, should not be read as an obligation. It is not the discussion afterwards that matters, but the experience itself.

[IWilKikU]

Thank you for explaining the signifacance of the book. That was a very thorough analysis. I understood what all that meant. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the unreality of characters. I just couldn't see Dorian or Basil or Lord Henry sitting in front of me. I didn't think that Wilde did a good job of aquainting the reader with the character. I mean, you get to know the characters, but you dont get to KNOW them, you know what I mean? I didn't feel like I was friends with any of them. Do you get what I'm saying, because I havn't slept in 40 some odd hours and I feel like I'm not really explaining myself very well.

[subterranean]

I Havent finish the book :(

This is what I can say about the book (well about Lord Henry more precisely) so far: he is a very confidence man and interesting things to say. While Dorian is just a young man who is so naive and lack self confidence

I see your point about the gay thing Kik. I mean the lines are unusual to use by man to describe other man

I will read further, is just that I divide my time between reading Dorian, the Solitare mystery and Frankenstein

[fayefaye]

I still haven't found a copy!!! :( You've already read it??

[subterranean]

You know how i get a copy Faye?
I printed the darn thing from this site !!
All pages

[piquant]

First of all...the one-liners....At first, I thought, "How witty!" Then, towards the end, they made me want to slit my wrists. I cannot think of anything that could possibly annoy me more. I know this is Wilde's style, so I guess I should just accept the fact that Wilde isn't my cup of tea.

Kik, I warned you all it was wretched (although On the Road hasn't got mush better reviews on the other thread).

As far as the realistic debate. It didn't strike me that Dorian and Lord Henry were real people, however it also didn't strike me that creating "realistic" characters was Wilde's objective. If anything, they were set up as type characters to comment wittly on societies foibles. As far as I know, Wilde himself was homosexual, and was persecuted heavily for it. (Also, Bart, Do you have a thing for "melliflous"? :D )

[IWilKikU]

Originally posted by piquant
As far as the realistic debate. It didn't strike me that Dorian and Lord Henry were real people, however it also didn't strike me that creating "realistic" characters was Wilde's objective.

exactly. And the main thing I look for in READING, no matter if its fiction or non, is story. If a STORY doesn't have characters that I can believe could actually exist, its not a convincing story. If the author doesnt convince me that the story is real (not actually real in my world, but in the realism of the authors inner world) than I find it a waste of time.

[piquant]

Amen. I cast Wilde into the abyss off loathing...oh wait, he was already there.

[Admin]

Originally posted by subterranean
You know how i get a copy Faye?
I printed the darn thing from this site !!
All pages

If you used your own printer/paper/ink for it you probably spent more in ink than it would have cost to buy a paperback, you know that right?

In anycase, here is the link again:

http://www.online-literature.com/wilde/dorian_gray/

[subterranean]

Oh not at all Chris. There's no paperback edition sold here :). To get the book from outside the country, means I have to pay more. I suppose it's still cheaper to print than to buy it !!

I read the whole book and I dont know, to me Dorian and his two friends sound real enough (their personalities). Basil and Harry are these two manipulative people, whom I often encounter in my everyday life. And I see Dorian's personalities in one of my close friends, though she doesn't as extreme as him. So I guess this one is real enough. Try to compare it with Prince Happy
And there are many lines by Harry which are "funny".

And, I don't know that Mr. Wilde is a gay...

[IWilKikU]

In my about the author bit, it said that he was imprisoned for homosexual soddamy and that he never recovered his social status afterwards.

And I just feel like his characters are nothing more than vehicles for his witty speach.

[subterranean]

so it's like a personal diary ?

[Dick Diver]

It's essentially a 'homosexual novel' (whatever that is) - and come on, it's by Oscar Wilde, it's never going to be gritty realism.

It's Oscar playing the aesthete and tossing off bons mots.

I think that it's a great concept - call me Mr Vain call me Mr Raider call me Mr Wrong but I'd love to never age.

[fayefaye]

well, I only just read it... three months behind the book club, you're gonna have to deal with me dragging out this topic. [SPOILERS]

1. Oscar wilde's writing, 'I have nothing to declare but my genious' YEAH? whatever ya reckon. Just keep tellin' ya'self that, wilde. Those cute little epigrams got pretty darned annoying after a while, esp the ones contradicting themselves, I hate Lord Henry.
[gonna side with piquant]
2. I don't think Wilde thought anything of his readers. It was pretty predictable, I mean, on page sixty, he may as well have written, 'SO. SOMETIME DOWN THE LINE SYBIL VANE'S BROTHER'S GONNA TRY TO KILL DORIAN' for all the difference it would have made.
3. Couldn't help but think, 'I'm wasting my youth!'
4. Despite my criticisms, still worth reading, imo, because, yes, to SOME degree, he is witty, and it was kinda interesting.

[IWilKikU]

Thats pretty much what I thought too.

[fayefaye]

No, you didn't want to reveal the ending, something Wilde basically did himself.

And you liked Harry's one liners, whereas I wanted to see hime die slow and painful.

[IWilKikU]

I liked hearing Harry's one liners yes, but I didn't like Harry the character because all he was was a pithy one liner machine. He had no depth. Neither did any of the others for that matter. And yes I guess it was a bit silly for me to preserve the sanctity of the end when Wilde himself violates it so brazenly.

[thesettingsun]

At the very beginning i was very much in love with the simply impossible wit of Lord Henry. I liked him so much I took down all of his quotes! But as the novel went on, well, the initial enthusiasm died down somewhat.
Plotwise, perhaps the book was not entirely satisfying. But as said above, its more about the experience when you were reading the book that might count more. I loved the frilly/frivolous tone of the entire novel. I feel that it was almost whimsical even. But it put me in a very light-hearted mood. But there are many things we can take from the novel. For one, there's the one-liners. For another, there's the haunting exegesis of the horrors of ageing, and the everlasting dream of immortality.
For me, strangely enough, what I liked most was the way he described scenes. Very richly done. I felt like putting myself up into some cozy room with the most well-dressed furnishings, and dining in the most luxurious surroundings. Wilde lured me into the Victorian era!

[emily655321]

Originally posted by subterranean
I will read further, is just that I divide my time between reading Dorian, the Solitare mystery and Frankenstein

Dorian and Frankenstein at the same time? Whoa, two of my biggest let-downs of all time. Should take the classics one at a time in case they turn out to be as crap as those two were.

Anyway.

[GoldenTears]

Personally, I really very muhc liked the book. It was also very amusing and I have never read a book where I hated the main character yet wanted to finish the book.

I <3 Oscar Wilde though. And his Bosie.

[fayefaye]

It is both amusing and bewildering how nobody picked up on the fact I have a mangled wilde quote for my sig that I'm too lazy to change... and here I am criticizing him. :p

[emily655321]

Well, but quotes are really all he does well. :D

[Koa]

Well well well, time for me to revive this old topic cos I finally read this classic...[SPOILERS in case anyone still cares]

I actually liked it. Except some places where the description of all these aesthetic pleasures made me want to sleep, I found it interesting... I don't know what to say about the predictability because for me it was a bit spoilt byt he fact that i had heard a lot about it before...(the end for example, I actually knew what was going to happen but not exactly how). It was indeed obvious that Sybil's brother was going to come and get revenge but I was expecting him much earlier and the way he appeared wasnt that banal imo... I also liked the end, the way it was expressed...

As for the characters, it's true that they are not so deeply developed, but I didnt mind too much (I'm the one who hated most characters in War and Peace)... I fell in love with lord Henry, I loved his witty self-confident lines... Maybe towards the end it got a bit too much, but I liked the fact that the character is characterised like that.

I liked hearing Harry's one liners yes, but I didn't like Harry the character because all he was was a pithy one liner machine. He had no depth.
I think the fact that he has no depth is actually is depth. He represent the empty boastful person who can just spit sentences that way, without caring about anything.
I liked Basil too, so foolishly simple... Dorian was my least favourite in the end, too easily manipulated, even if that feature does represent a character doesnt it?

What else... After Dorian kills Basil some bits reminded me of Crime and Punishment...but that was too easy to be reminded of in that situation I think...

[Monica]

In one of U2's songs "The Ocean" there's a reference to the book:

A picture in grey
Dorian Gray
Just me by the sea

And I felt like a star
I felt the world could go far
If they listened
To what I said

Washes my feet
Washed the feet
Splashes the soul of my shoes

[Koa]

Oh yes, good one. I love old U2 :)

[frozenlight]

i think i like the u2 song better than the book... if you can compare a song and a novel that is.
anyway, about dorian gray... i think i expected more. the idea was good, and i generally enjoyed reading it. though i was bored to death at some point, when pages and pages and pages are full of descriptions of dorian's passion for tapestry, musical instruments, art, blah blah... ok, got it already, time to move on with the story...
i guess if i hadn't known that wilde was gay before reading the book, i qould have realised it. that thing with dorian's beauty and basil seeing him as his source of inspiration... yeah, right, what hetero painter would be inspired by a guy? anyway, the story was kind of predictible, the ending also... the characters...
the characters. dorian was annoying. he practically doesn't have a personality, he is asick mixture between harry and basil, between pure cynicism and don't-give-a-****-ism and innocence, sincere passion and taste. he is way too easy to influence and, of course, it is easy to guess the way he will turn out eventually.
harry is all talk, wit and so, he sees the crap in the society he lives in, and yet he doesn't even try to change himself, not to mention the others, for the better.

[Koa]

though i was bored to death at some point, when pages and pages and pages are full of descriptions of dorian's passion for tapestry, musical instruments, art, blah blah... ok, got it already, time to move on with the story... .
I second that.



i guess if i hadn't known that wilde was gay before reading the book, i qould have realised it. that thing with dorian's beauty and basil seeing him as his source of inspiration... yeah, right, what hetero painter would be inspired by a guy?
I'm not completely sure... it can be an original person.. I don't know, I liked the idea of someone not gay who has such infatuation on a person of the same sex. Maybe I don't know how men really work in that sense (or in any other sense) but I wouldnt be surprised by a woman finding that kind of inspiration in another woman, despite liking men... I think it can be possible for some kinf of 'sensitive' people...I might be wrong, but that was my idea...



the characters. dorian was annoying. he practically doesn't have a personality, he is asick mixture between harry and basil, between pure cynicism and don't-give-a-****-ism and innocence, sincere passion and taste. he is way too easy to influence and, of course, it is easy to guess the way he will turn out eventually.
harry is all talk, wit and so, he sees the crap in the society he lives in, and yet he doesn't even try to change himself, not to mention the others, for the better.

I like this analysis, the lack of personality of Dorian is what strikes most about him... I agree about Henry too, as I said I like his wit but he had no ground, no real purpose...it was wit for the sake of with, like art for the sake of art...so it fits perfectly in the mood of the book! I'm not sure he really sees the crap of the society...he can analyse it and put it into wit, but I'm not sure he realises himself that that's really crap and something can be done about it... he sort of contemplates it and puts into beautiful sentences and thinks there is no more to it. Pretty aesthetic, too...

[Scheherazade]

the lack of personality of Dorian is what strikes most about him... Dorian's lack of personality;his impressionable nature and lack of conscience are the reasons for his downfall, I believe. Had he been otherwise, he wouldn't have need to assert his physical beauty and go such extremes.

It has been some time since I read TPODG but, if I remember correctly, Basil does have feelings for Dorian. Not sure if that would make him 'gay', though.

[subterranean]

I dont know whether the lack of personality or the narcisistic personality that got him down.

[byquist]

Although vague in memory, the black-and-white movie version of this book was pungent and persuasive.

[Scheherazade]

The library doesn't seem to have a copy of the movie! :(

[frozenlight]

I second that.


I'm not completely sure... it can be an original person.. I don't know, I liked the idea of someone not gay who has such infatuation on a person of the same sex. Maybe I don't know how men really work in that sense (or in any other sense) but I wouldnt be surprised by a woman finding that kind of inspiration in another woman, despite liking men... I think it can be possible for some kinf of 'sensitive' people...I might be wrong, but that was my idea...



I like this analysis, the lack of personality of Dorian is what strikes most about him... I agree about Henry too, as I said I like his wit but he had no ground, no real purpose...it was wit for the sake of with, like art for the sake of art...so it fits perfectly in the mood of the book! I'm not sure he really sees the crap of the society...he can analyse it and put it into wit, but I'm not sure he realises himself that that's really crap and something can be done about it... he sort of contemplates it and puts into beautiful sentences and thinks there is no more to it. Pretty aesthetic, too...


about harry... it's obvious he doesn't like the society he lives in. i don't have a copy of the book with me and i usually don't write down quotes, but i'm pretty sure i remember some scenes, when he talks at some parties i think, when he points out the others' shallowness right in their face. he realises that, but he's no better than them.

when it comes to basil... it's kind of striking that he sees in dorian not only innocence etc, but especially physical beauty. dorian's appearance is not only a means of conveying his inner qualities, but it's an important quality itself.

[dotk]

yeah i tot it was a great novel.
i understood all of that gay thing & it being unrealistic. and i also
100% agree that its a 'homosexual novel' and all that.
but u noe wat? realism was never real. and Wilde?
He's such a emotionally charged homo who needed to exude all
his feelings in subtlety. Thats pretty much sad isnt it. esp sinz when then
homosexuality was a crime. give that guy a break.
hes sexually disoriented thats all.

[MaryEliFit]

I have heard of Dorian Gray but never knew what it was about so on my birthday I bought the book. I really liked it and I was so into it and when I finished it I read it again.

[Dorian Gray]

Mmm....Surprisingly, I like it.

[Cicilin]

I like this novel "Portrait of Dorian Gray"!

[STX360]

the novel was mainly about " the forgotten value of pleasure". the human who always tries to hide and suppress the reality of his desires and passions behind moralities and is also suppressed by the fear of society. he has forgotten his greatest duty of all. the duty he has to himself (as lord Henry states).
somehow , the whole underlying concept of the novel can be seen in one of lord Henry's aphorisms. " the only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. resist it and your soul grows sick with longing for all the things it has forbidden to itself."
and Dorian is just like that. under the influence of lord Henry, he becomes the one who attempts to yield to his temptations, rather than resisting them. he takes a very liberal view towards his passions and seemingly shallow temptations. he yearns to stay young and to control people with that youth and beauty. he doesn't resist his desires with moral or social fears, rather he successfully dominates the surrounding society to his own desires.

and if you think he ended up in a bad way, just ask yourself, what would become of him if he hadn't lived like that? if he had lived like a respectable and morally loyal member of the common society?
then he would just get old and die eventually, with the difference that his whole life wouldn't worth writing a novel about. the way i see it, Dorian gray lived a life much better and fuller than that of the "morally committed" people around him.