Mein Kampf

[grace86]

My sister is studying Germany in her world history class and her teacher wanted her to read something about German history/influence. She chose to read Mein Kampf, and is only fifteen.

I am not one to say that someone cannot read something - so I think it is okay. However, my brother says that she will get ridiculed for reading it (even though she is allowed to) because he read it at fifteen for the same reason and he said the teacher looked down on him for it. My brother also said that the book is very influential (but then I think any book can be).

So, should I buy the book Mein Kampf for my fifteen year old sister? Does anyone have any thoughts about this idea who has had the opportunity to read it?

[Logos]

No haven't read it but there was a lengthy discussion of it here :)
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14430&highlight=mein+kampf

[grace86]

Thanks Logos.

[Veva]

Well Grace, if I were you I would recommend her not to do so. People are so afraid of these things that threaten the human rights. I have read it too and as a matter of fact, I feel that people are even suspicious of those who read it.
I don't say that she shouldn't read such a book, of course it is a matter of choice, but to choose it for a high school lesson, I think it's just too over the top.

[Virgil]

Grace, I think it is a bad choice. Not that she might be persuaded into being an anti-semite, but anyone who takes up this is resurrecting wounds and can be percieved to be sympathetic to its cause. Why pick that? So much other great German literature, from Goethe for instance. Plus I've heard that Mien kampf is poorly written German. Some works are so distateful that they ought to be ostricized. (Notice I didn't say banned.) Would someone pick up a work that rationalized slavery of blacks here? No I don't feel it would be right.

[grace86]

Thanks guys. I've been reading the old thread logos recommended, and it does seem like it would bring up a problem in class. My little sister likes to test the rules. If she can read something that will bring up a discussion on her rights to do so in school - she will do it. She tends to be on opposite ends with her teachers and very outspoken when it comes to freedoms. She might be wanting to read it just to prove to the school or something that she can.

She should read it eventually, but maybe for class it is too much. I will look into Goethe Virgil. She has been sent to the office one too many times already with her outspoken personality and views of politics (which is what I am sure her reading of it would turn into).

[ClaesGefvenberg]

She should read it eventually, but maybe for class it is too much. Most likely. Particularly if she is doing it for the reasons you mention. At 15, many of us liked to push the limits, and sometimes it came back to bite us. This could be one of those times. Perhaps HITLER - A study in tyranny, by Alan Bullock (http://www.accampbell.uklinux.net/bookreviews/r/bullock.html) would be a better choice if she insists on the subject? It is very interesting and good food for thought.

/Claes

[PeterL]

So, should I buy the book Mein Kampf for my fifteen year old sister? Does anyone have any thoughts about this idea who has had the opportunity to read it?

No, she should borrow it from a library. That's not the sort of book that most people would want to bother keeping around. I doubt that she'll ever want to reread it.

[grace86]

Thanks for the recommendation Claes, the biography looks more reasonable for class.

And I think I agree with you Peter, the idea of keeping something like that might actually give me nightmares.

[ShoutGrace]

Would someone pick up a work that rationalized slavery of blacks here?

I don't see why doing so would be in and of itself "wrong" in any way. Reading contemporary documents from any given time period helps immensely when trying to understand history. "Documentary" history allows the person to get right to the source, relieving the barrier of a middle man. There was much literature circulating in 19 century America which advocated slavery - reading it, while being an arduous chore (because hopefully the modern reader would disagree with the conclusion), would help greatly in gaining knowledge concerning that time period. Reading attempted justifications of slavery can serve to strengthen the belief and knowledge of slavery's erroneous and cruel nature.

Concerning a document from modern times, which rationalized the slavery of races based on skin color - this is a sepatate issue, I think. Mein Kampf may be considered a historical document. There is a fine line here, but Hitler's situation is not analogous to any others, in my opinion.

Re: Mein Kampf - I agree with others, and I think that it may be too much for a 15 year old.


However, my brother says that she will get ridiculed for reading it (even though she is allowed to) because he read it at fifteen for the same reason and he said the teacher looked down on him for it.


I think that is sad. As a teacher, if I could not dissuade him and get him to wait a few years, I would have applauded his courage, and begged him to come to me with any questions, concerns, or thoughts.



Not that she might be persuaded into being an anti-semite, but anyone who takes up this is resurrecting wounds and can be percieved to be sympathetic to its cause.


People are so afraid of these things that threaten the human rights.


Any reasonable minded person should be able to take one second and contemplate the possible reasons for the reading of Mein Kampf. If someone is unable to understand that it is a work of (perhaps badly written/formulated) literature, helpful in the understanding of one of the most vile and horrible men, eras, and atocities - then they probably haven't even heard of the book anyway.

As much as we all (again, hopefully) detest Hitler's views and acts, the bottom line is that he played a major role in one of the more abominable endeavors of human history, and is a powerful figure on a worldwide scale. If this book helps anybody understand him better than they did before reading it, it ought to be read and discussed (I don't find the word "understand" to be synonymous with "empathize with," or "sympathize with").

All this, I do believe, should be reserved for adults. I think that children of that age need to understand the basics, or at least get a groundwork of facts available to them to aid them in the understanding of such things as Mein Kampf - while everybody may not agree, I would contend that they should start from the known premise that Hitler and his actions were evil (notice, no quotation marks). Mein Kampf isn't going to get them there.

[Virgil]

I don't see why doing so would be in and of itself "wrong" in any way. Reading contemporary documents from any given time period helps immensely when trying to understand history. "Documentary" history allows the person to get right to the source, relieving the barrier of a middle man. .
This may be hard for me to explain. I hope I can make myself clear with my various responses here. I don't believe it's wrong for a scholar to read it for a thesis for instance. But yes, I'm against it being in the public square for debate.


There was much literature circulating in 19 century America which advocated slavery - reading it,
No one reads philosophic documents justifing slavery in the general public unless they're a scholar of the period.


Re: Mein Kampf - I agree with others, and I think that it may be too much for a 15 year old.
At least we agree this much.


Any reasonable minded person should be able to take one second and contemplate the possible reasons for the reading of Mein Kampf. If someone is unable to understand that it is a work of (perhaps badly written/formulated) literature, helpful in the understanding of one of the most vile and horrible men, eras, and atocities - then they probably haven't even heard of the book anyway....All this, I do believe, should be reserved for adults. I think that children of that age need to understand the basics, or at least get a groundwork of facts available to them to aid them in the understanding of such things as Mein Kampf - while everybody may not agree, I would contend that they should start from the known premise that Hitler and his actions were evil (notice, no quotation marks). Mein Kampf isn't going to get them there
Here's where we'll disagree. First i believe that everyone should know about the halocaust, including teenagers and would not hide the fact that hitler wrote some filthy book outlining his plans. But to bring the book into public debate is to give it moral equivalency. A debate is over issues of relative equality. To bring such a book into a debate is to elevate it. Now I firmly believe that 90 or 95 % of people will reject it, but the very fact that someone will defend its position is to propogate it in the culture. There was a time we may have said it was proper for a husband to kill his wife under certain circumstances. We have extirpated that notion from our culture. No one would debate that today except perhaps some boneheads. We would elevate that issue onto an equal plane if we now debated it. It has been removed from our cultural conscious. To debate Mien Kamf is to keep in the cultural conscious. I want to extirpate it, not give it some moral equivalency that some bonehead will start believing.

That's my point of view. Perhaps I'm wrong. But i don't feel its for general public debate. I feel it increases the pot of people who wind up supporting it. Look at that idiot in Iran who keeps pointing to "books" that claim the halocaust didn't happen. The very fact that a public debate on this happens gives it credence to some to believe it.

[cuppajoe_9]

. But to bring the book into public debate is to give it moral equivalency. A debate is over issues of relative equality. To bring such a book into a debate is to elevate it.I completely disagree. Mein Kampf not only should be brought into public debate, but it must be. Why? Because the fascists have not left us. In fact, there are many, many fascists in Europe, Australia and North America, and their numbers are growing. We cannot let them and their ideas remain in hiding, because that is where they will stay until they are dragged out and exposed to the cold hard light of public debate and shown to be completely, utterly, embarasingly and irrefutably wrong, violent, stupid and incoherent. Ignoring Mein Kampf makes them martyrs in their own mind, and all the more convinced that ther reason they are ignored is that the mainstream is terrified that the basic tennents of fascism are true.

In answer to the question above: no, Mein Kampf does not seem like the ideal candidate for the assignment, as Hitler was not a particularly talented prose writer, as well as the other obvious dificulties.

[SleepyWitch]

grace, I'd say it depends on how mature your sister is. I mean, if she's easy to influence or hasn't learned to distinguish between "facts" and subjective opinions yet, it's maybe not a good idea to read Mein Kampf.

does it have to be about Hitler?
I mean, we've got lots of history to pick from.
A Concise History of Germany (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concise-History-Germany-Cambridge-Histories/dp/0521540712/sr=1-1/qid=1166006509/ref=sr_1_1/203-4310753-3274324?ie=UTF8&s=books)

if it has to be a book to do with the Holocaust/ German Jews, I'd recommend
"Jud Süss" (Jew Suss) by Lion Feuchtwanger. He was a German Jewish writer. His book is about a Jewish man in the (17?18?) century who wants to climb the social ladder and has to pay the price for it. It's extremely well written and good to read.
Ironically, the Nazi turned this book (again: Feuchtwanger was Jewish himself and his book was not anti-semitic!!!) into a propaganda film later!

there are also lots of young adult books about the Holocaust/WWII. They show how WWII/ antisemitism affected the lives of Jewish and non-Jewish kids/young people. If you're interested in them I'll try to find out if they are available in English.

[Virgil]

I completely disagree. Mein Kampf not only should be brought into public debate, but it must be. Why? Because the fascists have not left us. In fact, there are many, many fascists in Europe, Australia and North America, and their numbers are growing. We cannot let them and their ideas remain in hiding, because that is where they will stay until they are dragged out and exposed to the cold hard light of public debate and shown to be completely, utterly, embarasingly and irrefutably wrong, violent, stupid and incoherent. Ignoring Mein Kampf makes them martyrs in their own mind, and all the more convinced that ther reason they are ignored is that the mainstream is terrified that the basic tennents of fascism are true.

In answer to the question above: no, Mein Kampf does not seem like the ideal candidate for the assignment, as Hitler was not a particularly talented prose writer, as well as the other obvious dificulties.

Listen, I understand what you're trying to say, Cuppa. But why debate this issue on Hitler's terms, from his point of view, from his very voice. That is what you do if you teach Mien Kampf. I'll say it again, you are elevating the book by debating it. But if you teach the issue from the halocaust's survivor's point of view, from their voice, present the debate on our terms, then I think you will have a more appropriate response.

[jon1jt]

they ought to burn that book along with the Turner Diaries. Ugh--
I read Mein Kampf my first year at college---Virgil is right, even the English translation is really bad---one big ramble start to finish.

Catcher in the Rye, now that's a cool book. :)

[grace86]

Listen, I understand what you're trying to say, Cuppa. But why debate this issue on Hitler's terms, from his point of view, from his very voice. That is what you do if you teach Mien Kampf. I'll say it again, you are elevating the book by debating it. But if you teach the issue from the halocaust's survivor's point of view, from their voice, present the debate on our terms, then I think you will have a more appropriate response.

What if you debate so that it may be disarmed? The mystifying impact that it has on people could be taken away if debated and shown for what it is. I think most people want to read it because it is so taboo. People criticize all types of literature and I think that maybe in criticizing/debating Mein Kampf it can possibly be turned into "just another book."

I can understand your reasons for your views Virgil, but I am afraid I can also understand Cuppajoe and ShoutGrace as well. See, I am under the idea that most people don't like to read - but then when something so controversial (like DaVinci Code - I am not comparing the two in how controversial they are so please don't think I am.) exists, everyone has to go out and read it so that they can see for themselves what the fuss is all about. I think that in demystifying (sp?) it, the book might not have that kind of power it once carried.

Sleepy: Yes she is very easily influenced. I've come to the conclusion she shouldn't read it. I guess the project is an extra credit assignment - and she says she would like to read Mein Kampf because her teacher was talking about it. But it is not something she HAS to read. If you can see if those titles are available in English, then that would be awesome. Thank you.

[Adventure Man]

Jon1jt read Farenheit 451 LOL Don't burn any books, no matter how awful. Future generations have a right to their access.

[PeterL]

Jon1jt read Farenheit 451 LOL Don't burn any books, no matter how awful. Future generations have a right to their access.

I agree. Good, bad, or otherwise books should not be burned, unless they are in very bad shape, and you need the heat.

[jon1jt]

Jon1jt read Farenheit 451 LOL Don't burn any books, no matter how awful. Future generations have a right to their access.

the smut has no objective moral/social value, NONE. so say what you like about the "right" of future generations, they'd fare better without it. yeah yeah i'm aware of John Mill's whole On Liberty utilitarian speel. spare me.

[Virgil]

For those who think it's best to teach and debate Mien Kampf, what would you take out of the curriculum to replace it with this? There is a limited amount of time and possible reading material to get through. Would you take out Aristotle? Or Shakespeare? or Plato? Or Hume? Something has to give. Would out take out Faulkner or Dante? Or Or is it better to read Hitler instead of Ellie Wiezel or Primo Levi? In a world of limited time, filth should be kept on the bottom where it belongs.

[Adventure Man]

I agree. Good, bad, or otherwise books should not be burned, unless they are in very bad shape, and you need the heat.

Sometimes works as food too LOL

[Adventure Man]

jon1jt and virgil, you both have great opinions. virg, I was thinking more in the vein of reference material rather then must read list LOL. I mean anybody who chooses Hitler over Socrates is going down the wrong path (exit NOW lol :thumbs_up ). I am for free access to any material :D . If we take books out of circulation because some feel it is "smut" then we are no better then the Nazi's who held book burning rallies (right/wrong?? I guess you guys can discuss that too ;) ). In closing, I agree with jon that mien kampf has no social/moral value, just disagree with getting rid of it. It's a piece of history, unfortunately a dark part of history.

Good night, be kind to one another.:crash:
A.M.

[jon1jt]

jon1jt and virgil, you both have great opinions. virg, I was thinking more in the vein of reference material rather then must read list LOL. I mean anybody who chooses Hitler over Socrates is going down the wrong path (exit NOW lol :thumbs_up ). I am for free access to any material :D . If we take books out of circulation because some feel it is "smut" then we are no better then the Nazi's who held book burning rallies (right/wrong?? I guess you guys can discuss that too ;) ). In closing, I agree with jon that mien kampf has no social/moral value, just disagree with getting rid of it. It's a piece of history, unfortunately a dark part of history.

Good night, be kind to one another.:crash:
A.M.

fair enough. but i don't see why people need to have smut like Mein Kampf available when, if it's lessons in virtue that we're ultimately after there are parents to teach kids the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. there is a school of thought out there that holds that no one can be the final arbiter of a book's value, lest we establish a super-censor board. this is relativist nonsense, because there are books out there that have no value, and "no value", in my mind, is based on the still relevant and legal, "reasonable person" standard, which holds that no reasonable person would agree that mein kampf is historically informative or relevant or has some overarching social/moral value. the book far more often incites hate and strife. the analogy you invoked comparing common sense to the likes of nazism is just a shrewd way to diffuse the debate, not saying that was your intent, but is the intent of relativists in the world.

as far as Mein Kampf having some value as part of the historical record, why would that book need to be cited to inform people that some loony came to power while an entire nation either went along or stood idly by (with some exceptions) in the face of an active and open genocide policy? plenty of good books have been written about the conditions under which nazism emerged, and that book was pure propaganda. i read the book and most of it is unintelligible, so the argument that it "swayed" people during the time doesn't work. most people manipulated had the seeds of anti-semitism long before Mein Kampf.

by the way, i taught a course once on 20th Century philosophical history and for the segment on nazism i didn't use Mein Kampf, didn't even mention it.
:D

[Virgil]

fair enough. but i don't see why people need to have smut like Mein Kampf available when, if it's lessons in virtue that we're ultimately after there are parents to teach kids the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. there is a school of thought out there that holds that no one can be the final arbiter of a book's value, lest we establish a super-censor board. this is relativist nonsense, because there are books out there that have no value, and "no value", in my mind, is based on the still relevant and legal, "reasonable person" standard, which holds that no reasonable person would agree that mein kampf is historically informative or relevant or has some overarching social/moral value.

Jon, you've spoken like a true Conservative (ie, moral relativism). ;) It warms my heart. :D


I was thinking more in the vein of reference material rather then must read list LOL. I mean anybody who chooses Hitler over Socrates is going down the wrong path (exit NOW lol ). I am for free access to any material
Well, I said I'm against banning and if scholars felt the need to read it that they should do so. I have never read it. Jon has and apparently feels it's a worthless read from whatever perspective one approaches it.

[jon1jt]

Jon, you've spoken like a true Conservative (ie, moral relativism). ;) It warms my heart. :D

:lol: :lol: you got me there, virgil! :lol:

[Adventure Man]

my hairy butt and back are all singed! Go easy friends! I think I'm reasonable though. For instance, today I allowed my patient the generic drug over the more expensive brand name. I put 87 octane in my car because my daughter told me my automobile is a "piece of crap" and doesn't need 94.

Sorry guys I'm not the best at debating, I spent most of my school days memorizing charts and graphs lol. I don't want to defend myself though, because it seems to be a circular argument (lawyer friend uses that phrase alot lol). If I am guilty of trying to diffuse the debate then so be it. It needed some water thrown on it --> :flare::bawling: ....I honestly had no "intent" (kinda ambiguous word) just wanted to hear some thoughts and keep this constructive. :)
jon you seem very passionate, I like that! Just please douse me with some water in between lashings :lol:

One last thought, "the book far more often incites hate and strife"....I don't agree with this. When I read it in college it incited sleepiness in me, so baahh :D ! Seriously though, I can name a big list of books that do that, for instance the Merck Manual! That incites hate and strife on the ward at times ;) Don't fear books, unless you see one flying from a students hand towards your head :p

[Adventure Man]

Jon
I like the Jack K. (I never spell his last name right lol) quote. The last bang! really hit me on the head!:sick:

[jon1jt]

my hairy butt and back are all singed! Go easy friends! I think I'm reasonable though. For instance, today I allowed my patient the generic drug over the more expensive brand name. I put 87 octane in my car because my daughter told me my automobile is a "piece of crap" and doesn't need 94.

Sorry guys I'm not the best at debating, I spent most of my school days memorizing charts and graphs lol. I don't want to defend myself though, because it seems to be a circular argument (lawyer friend uses that phrase alot lol). If I am guilty of trying to diffuse the debate then so be it. It needed some water thrown on it --> :flare::bawling: ....I honestly had no "intent" (kinda ambiguous word) just wanted to hear some thoughts and keep this constructive. :)
jon you seem very passionate, I like that! Just please douse me with some water in between lashings :lol:

One last thought, "the book far more often incites hate and strife"....I don't agree with this. When I read it in college it incited sleepiness in me, so baahh :D ! Seriously though, I can name a big list of books that do that, for instance the Merck Manual! That incites hate and strife on the ward at times ;) Don't fear books, unless you see one flying from a students hand towards your head :p

"hairy butt and back are all singed..." :lol: :lol: it's all in good fun, adventureman. "constructive", what's that? :lol: actually it's an interesting topic---you got me to think, so i'm glad you brought it up.

btw, nice to meet you, adventureman. see you around.

[SleepyWitch]

grace, I've found one of those young adult books
"Friedrich" (German title: Damals war es Friedrich) by Hans P. Richter. It's available on amazon.com but only as a used book.
apparently you can also order it in Egnlish from Amazon Deutschland.
click here (http://www.amazon.de/Friedrich-Puffin-Books-Hans-Richter/dp/customer-reviews/0140322051)
hope it helps.
if you need more recommendations give me some time to do research

[grace86]

grace, I've found one of those young adult books
"Friedrich" (German title: Damals war es Friedrich) by Hans P. Richter. It's available on amazon.com but only as a used book.
apparently you can also order it in Egnlish from Amazon Deutschland.
click here (http://www.amazon.de/Friedrich-Puffin-Books-Hans-Richter/dp/customer-reviews/0140322051)
hope it helps.
if you need more recommendations give me some time to do research

Thank you Sleepy. Very appreciated.

Virgil, I would not replace Socrates with Hitler on the school curriculum. I never said it should be in the hands of young adults - hence my initial question.

[EAP]

I read Mein Kampf at the age of eleven. It read like a pretty funny fairytale.

[PeterL]

I read Mein Kampf at the age of eleven. It read like a pretty funny fairytale.

Excellent. I have read only excerpts, so I can't judge it as a whole, but I had no desire to read it after reading what I have.

[Adventure Man]

Thank you Sleepy. Very appreciated.

Virgil, I would not replace Socrates with Hitler on the school curriculum. I never said it should be in the hands of young adults - hence my initial question.

good call. :thumbs_up
nice to meet you 2 jon. :D

[mtpspur]

My school library had an unabridged edition that highlighted the parts that English translations had left out but when I made an attempt at the supper table about it my Mother made her opinions quite clear and I returned the book. Had read only about 30 pages but do remember Hitler making a remark about not liking dictatorships but otherwise as boring as Winston's doctrinal readings from Orwell's 1984.

[SleepyWitch]

grace I've done some more research but somehow there don't seem to exist English translations of those books.. There ought to be, because whenever you open a German young adult book it says "translated into 32 languages"... so maybe amazon's search engine is to blame???
Would a list of titles and authors from amazon deutschland help? I'm afraid the titles and summaries will be in German but i could tell you which of them sound good and you can go to a bookshop and have them search their database for the books by the author's name????

[grace86]

grace I've done some more research but somehow there don't seem to exist English translations of those books.. There ought to be, because whenever you open a German young adult book it says "translated into 32 languages"... so maybe amazon's search engine is to blame???
Would a list of titles and authors from amazon deutschland help? I'm afraid the titles and summaries will be in German but i could tell you which of them sound good and you can go to a bookshop and have them search their database for the books by the author's name????

Sure thing, but don't work too hard sleepy, my sister is losing interest (as I thought she might) but please do.

Thanks

[a nooby in engl]

The book mein Kampf is very dangerous for young people. People who have this book must to be hitting.

[Laindessiel]

I have to read this book if it makes this much noise. Negative or positive power it will induce on me, I have my brains to back me up.

[Turk]

I've read it and enjoyed. It's a very good book for understanding human nature and psychology. When you read Hitler's life, his period and social conditions, you understand why he became a racist. I think he was an unlucky genius. If he wouldn't born as a villager's son and if he would have a little better life he could be next Nietzsche. His life is also a good example of "How Capitalism and Social Inequality Creates an Evil".

Though, anyway, history won't write 2. time. It's already written. And Hitler recorded as one of top 5 maniacs of world history and shame of well cultured German nation.

[SleepyWitch]

I think he was an unlucky genius.
??? :eek: what exactly do you mean by "unlucky genius"?


...and shame of well cultured German nation.
yep, that's more like it.

[Laindessiel]

??? :eek: what exactly do you mean by "unlucky genius"?

I think what Turk meant by "unlucky genius" is that if, and only IF Hitler used his power and intellectual faculties not in a misanthropic way, he would've made a great leader for Germany. Although I have yet to read the book (is it his biography?), I have an idea of how he took Germany's position of leadership and how he used it: cruelly and very unjustly. HE IS CRUEL AND UNJUST. (I think those two words are too small to fit his description.) He is, undeniably, intelligent. But he treated his authority like he's an invincible man, never to be touched by flaws. In that, he is wrong. And in everything he did, he was wrong.

The wrong intended purpose of one holding the superpower is one of man's greatest liabilities. It has happened too many a situation already (it is bad enough here in my country) and if people still believe in hedonism done in a valueless way and continue believing in that, then we are gone gooses and dead ducks.

But as I always say, there is hope. Hope is what keeps us going.

[Turk]

I think what Turk meant by "unlucky genius" is that if, and only IF Hitler used his power and intellectual faculties not in a misanthropic way, he would've made a great leader for Germany.


Actually no. He couldnt use his power for a better world. Because when he became a leader, he was already turned to a mad.

I mean "unlucky". Simply unlucky. People doesnt creates themselves. Their family, society, social conditions and many other facts shapes a man s mind and ideas. If society sucks, if it s inequal and unfair it s so normally psychos like Hitler grows.

[Laindessiel]

I get you Turk. I get you. And people in our surroundings ofcourse affect the way you see the world. As the saying goes, "You are the sum of all the people you met."

[SleepyWitch]

Actually no. He couldnt use his power for a better world. Because when he became a leader, he was already turned to a mad.

I mean "unlucky". Simply unlucky. People doesnt creates themselves. Their family, society, social conditions and many other facts shapes a man s mind and ideas. If society sucks, if it s inequal and unfair it s so normally psychos like Hitler grows.

ah, now I get it :) I'm inclined to agree. .. but on the other hand, lots of people grow up in miserable conditions but don't become mad or kill millions of people.
In other words, there is an element of choice.

Lain, I think Hitler wrote Mein Kampf before he actually became Chancellor of the Reich. He tried to overthrow the goverment and was sentenced to a couple of years in prison, where he dictated Mein Kampf to a friend who was imprisoned with him.
The Beer Hall Putsch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch)

[Laindessiel]

Vielen danke, Sleepy. Although I'm not able to open your link because most of the Internet is still down. I'll check the book out, though, that's for sure. :)

[Felixstowe]

Personally I don't think your sister should read this book. At her tender age, despite the fact that you may think she can handle it, or will be ok, can plant something that will affect her in her future life. I do not believe that teachers should encourage the reading of this book, especially in children. I consider teenagers still children, and whats more, children at a most suceptible period in the making of their future pyschology. Everything that your sister witnesses at this age will mould part of who she is in the future. As such it is not very wise to be putting the ideas of racial superiority and anti-semitism into their heads. (I'm not saying your sister wouldn't be able to resist it, but look at how many people it has already affected through history, and how they have reacted to its teachings, IE Neo Nazi in the US. The NNP in Germany.) Malasovich was a fan of Mein Kampf, since he thought it justified his use of genocide against Moslems.
I'm not saying she should nnever read, but should be careful. The book can have far reaching consequences if put into the hands of someone who cannot distance themselves from the writing.

The German version of the book, is poorly written. Hitler was a painter, not a writer. Personally its a load of anti-semitic bunkwod, cooked up by a man who after suffering from a mustard gas attack was deemed by the military psyciatrist as unstable, showing tendancies of the insane, and unfit to lead.
Further more it has had far reaching shame and consequence to the German people. You can all sit around your tables at social functions and discuss this stuff quite candidly. You have no idea how uncomfortable it feels at social gatherings, being German and being asked about Nazi's and their racist policies.
What more drives me to the extremes of anger is the re-establishment and gaining popularity of NNP, and other Nazi parties in Germany.



I completely disagree. Mein Kampf not only should be brought into public debate, but it must be. Why? Because the fascists have not left us. In fact, there are many, many fascists in Europe, Australia and North America, and their numbers are growing. We cannot let them and their ideas remain in hiding, because that is where they will stay until they are dragged out and exposed to the cold hard light of public debate and shown to be completely, utterly, embarasingly and irrefutably wrong, violent, stupid and incoherent. Ignoring Mein Kampf makes them martyrs in their own mind, and all the more convinced that ther reason they are ignored is that the mainstream is terrified that the basic tennents of fascism are true.

I think you have the ideas of Fascisti and NASSI mixed up, while they do have some similiar traints. I think you need to relook at them both, Fascism is a government system that has no reason for racism. (Nor were any fascist governments in this sense racist to their population.) While Nazism at its core has racial policy, and racist ideology.

Fascism is merely a call for strong government, through the use of corporatism, and guildism all run through a strong elitist party. Albeit a dictatorial party. This came from tghe belief that a strongman shouldn't necessarily be popular, but the most able to do the job and not seek short term and short sighted answers in order to appease the public. (The King of Italy support Fascism in his country, as did many members of the social elite. And many countries had fascist parties, Canada's brown shirt, America's silver shirts, Irelands blue shirts, Mexico's green shirts. Britians black shirts. )

Nazism was concerned with militarism and the growth of its nation at the expense of the so called inferior nations that surround it. Eventually, had they not been defeated, they would have not only mass murdered jews, but also slavs, blacks, arabs, and any other race which stood in the way of progress. They were also concerned greatly with racial purity, hence the reason the SS only allowed membership to those who could prove they were of five generations of German descent. They also had strict rules about marriage, society, and social law, all based on Racial purity.

[Ryan_002]

Mein Kampf is very hard to simply pick up and read. Many of Hitler's references (then contemporary) have since been obscured by time and are hard to find in the average library (unless they have German newspapers dating back to the Weimar era). Also, the arguments are difficult to follow (complex political theory and extensive early German history. Some would say a lack of logic compounds this.) and Hitler tends to assume his audience will pick up his references (logical for people living in his day, but your sister will need to do a lot of research to track the events and persons he refers to). Hitler's discussion of the trade unions and the educational / financial policies of the Weimar republic will require some understanding of at American and European foreign policy (specific to the era) and at least a fundamental knowledge of Marxist theory (which is mostly disputed in a very dry, point by point academic debate format).

If your sister is expecting a fiery tirade that will be highly provocative, she will be sadly dissapointed. Mein Kampf is extremely dry and reading it is akin to going through the details of a political party newsletter, with only the occasional digression where Hitler "rants" for a few short sentences.

It is very, VERY, boring. :yawnb:

[Francis Parker]

I'm stunned by the responses on this thread.

I received an auto generated email from this website today so I came in for a quick look around and stumbled on this thread. It's been some time since I last visited, and then only to respond to a question about Animal Farm, so perhaps my input won't be welcome here, but I have to add my two cents.

It appears, at least from what I have read thus far, that very few people have ever even picked up the book, much less read it. All I see are carefully conditioned responses that that are cookie cutter copies of one another. I see precious little open mindedness.

No work should be burned, I can't believe I actually read that on a forum dedicated to literature- isn't that what you all decry about the Nazis? And yet here you are espousing the very ideals you abhor. Irony anyone?

Nothing is completely evil and nothing is completely good, including Mein Kampf, but to try and steer others into a particular perspective without allowing them the freedom of their own conscience to disern what to accept and what to reject is worse than any form of government imposed restriction- it is a prohibition of free will, a self imposed slavishness that has no place in a truly free world.

I can't believe I am the only person to make this observation without disclaimer- you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Felixstowe]

LOL.
I should be ashamed of myself for having read a book, which caused one of the major changes in my countries history, for the worst? And then after having read said book, caution the other readers that the book is a piece of racist literature, that can have influence on all people young or old if they read it. Especially the young, and dissillusioned. (This was the target audience of the book, and always has been.) And that he should in care of his sister, put off her reading the book until she is at an age where she can make her mind up.
Essentially while I do not agree with the idea of destroying books, I do believe there are more books that do damage then good. And there should be measures in place to limit the reading of them.

[Francis Parker]

"You can all sit around your tables at social functions and discuss this stuff quite candidly. You have no idea how uncomfortable it feels at social gatherings, being German and being asked about Nazi's and their racist policies."

I can imagine. Thing is, does your discomfort stem from personal responsibility or from an imparted conditioning? If you're a German, I have a fairly good idea just where your "guilt" stems from and I feel sorry for you, because it isn't yours to own. You warn of the potential damage that might take place if someone who isn't mature enough to discern the difference between the positive and negative aspects of this particular book without realizing- at least on a conscious level- just how badly you've been conditioned by others, most likely in your formative years, to feel a personal responsibility for which you have absolutely NO reason to.

When I see people use terms like "racism" I can tell that they are responding to a cue that has been implanted rather than to a specific tendency or point of view. For example, should a person from China feel ashamed for loving his own race? For being Chinese and speaking the Chinese language and loving his history and the cultural accomplishments of his people? Of course not, he should be proud of who he is and who his antecedents are. This, in the strictest definition of the term is racism, yet when you use the term it imparts only a negative. Human beings are complex creatures with individual as well as collective identifications. I am a man and am proud of being a man and I can do that without wanting to hate women or enslave them. I can be proud of my nation or my race without harboring ill will towards others. Trying to enforce a monolithic worldview in regards to either Germans, or White people is no different, no less unreasonable as doing the same thing to someone based upon the fact that they might be a Jew or a Gypsy- and yet here you are, doing that very thing.

In order for anyone to make a logical and reasoned decision about where they stand on a particular issue or belief, the most important factor is to learn as much as possible, to accumulate as much information and to view from as many perspectives as possible in order to validate- or dismiss a given philosophy.

I stand firm in the belief that in order to better understand ourselves as humans, to judge where we stand in history, to see where we are bound in the future, nothing is more important than the open and free pursuit of knowledge from every source available.