The Art of Sophistication and Etiquette.

[Lily Adams]

Though I believe reading Balthasar Gracian's The Art of Wordly Wisdom would work just as well, here is the place to talk about improving one's etiquette and overall good form. I stumbled across these sites that might help though they do apply more the past than the present, but they work out all the same, I think.

http://www.missabigail.com/advice/selection67.html

http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/manners/rules2.cfm

I have found that using proper spelling and grammar work as well. :)

Enjoy, and add your own tips to a well-mannered life!

[Shadowsarin]

Etiquette, bah! Just a load more needless rules that make life more complex!

Hail Inner City life, where the only etiquette requred is the knowledge of how to fit the most 'eff words into a sentence posible.

Being a little more serious for a second, I do tend to find a lot of these rules unrequired and downright pointless. Ok, while putting your hand in front of your mouth when sneezing is one thing, having a rule about not laughing too much is excecive and makes it seem that these rules are there to de-humanise people.

Okay, rant over, lets get on with the topic :D

I always found it rude to frown upon other people, but not follow this through with an explenation. Its like saying "You're too vulgar and lowly to be worth my time, but I'll make a face to show how I know what you did is wrong."

[Lily Adams]

Oh, come now, Mr. Shawdowsarin. Etiquette is not useless. Maybe laughing too much around strangers is one thing, but doing it around close friends is perfectly alright. That's how I interpret it. (Even though I don't think most people care in this day and age.)

How about sophistication? Always be willing and ready to enrich your mind with knowledge!

[Virgil]

Boy do I need this thread. My wife swears I have the worst table ettiquette. :D In fact we were out at dinner tonight and I splilled suace on my shirt. :sick: I can be a real slob. So how do I improve?

[Lily Adams]

Especially for Mr. Virgil and the other gentlemen out there: (Though it applies to everyone.)

http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/table.html

[dramasnot6]

This is an excellent thread Lily!Or should i say Miss Lily? :D I'm so pleased you went through with it. Those links you gave were really informative. I showed my father the table manners one(he has a rather porcine ettiquette at times) and he merely laughed. My new plan is to develop very good manners myself to influence him. So you're my new behavioural inspiration. That Miss Abigails advice was very cute, i especially loved the poem. Do you know anything of etiquette in language and greeting? I think that would be very applicable to today, seeing as so many have developed very poor grammer and lack of formality in greeting. Thanks!

[Lily Adams]

Oh, it's my pleasure, Miss Dramasnot, and I am honored!

Here's one about speaking etiquette, though it is centered more on the working world.

http://www.itplacements.com/ITP/SpeakingwithEtiquette.html

And another:

http://www.placementmanual.com/interviewing/interviewing-08.html

Here is a really nice one on etiquette in general:

http://www.career.fsu.edu/ccis/guides/etiquette.html

[Lily Adams]

Here is something I've always found disrespectful.

Listening to one's iPod/MP3 player/CD player whilst another is conversing and vice versa. It has always aggravated me when someone has done that to me or when I see it happening. It is outwardly saying "My music is more important than you." Once I saw a young man at my school kissing his lover whilst he was listening to his iPod!

[miss tenderness]

nice,nice,I love prestige.

[Pensive]

Table manners? :lol:

Who cares? :p


Listening to one's iPod/MP3 player/CD player whilst another is conversing and vice versa.
Maybe a person is a way too much irritated by that person who is talking that he finds nothing better than switching his/her CD Player on? :p

Come on, it is not too good to be so much prestigious. Let the things go as they are. It does not hurt for the girls to laugh out aloud or to fetch the broast from your brother's plate just for fun. Does it? Who cares if it comes in Table manners or not? At least, I don't. It doesn't make me a savage person as long as I ain't attacking somebody else. :)

[SleepyWitch]

2d When in Company, put not your Hands to any Part of the Body, not usualy Discovered.
..........
.........

10th When you Sit down, Keep your Feet firm and Even, without putting one on the other or Crossing them.
about "2d": my professor scratched his parts at a more or less formal dinner once:sick: I glared at him but he kept doing it, or at least it looked as if he was fingering his parts...

about "10th": what's wrong with crossing one's legs? there's no way I could ever stick to that rule :)

about not laughing out loud and making a public scene: what's wrong with it? sometimes people even expect you to laugh in formal situations, e.g. when they crack a joke as part of a lecture.
hehe, i suppose I have very poor manners as I laugh out loud and make lots of public spectacle all the time :lol:

[Madhuri]

Here is something I've always found disrespectful.

Listening to one's iPod/MP3 player/CD player whilst another is conversing and vice versa. It has always aggravated me when someone has done that to me or when I see it happening. It is outwardly saying "My music is more important than you." Once I saw a young man at my school kissing his lover whilst he was listening to his iPod!


I think i'll have to agree with this....yes it is very disrespectful. But I find it more annoying (I have seen men doing this) when a guy takes his girlfriend out on a date, and they sit on a table where the guy hands the girl some ice-cream, and the guy on the other hand is talking constantly on the phone, and when he is done they go. I dont understand what kind of date that is supposed to be, if you cant take out time (this goes for both the guy and the girl) or find the other person annoying, then why go out with them in the first place.

[dramasnot6]

Here is something I've always found disrespectful.

Listening to one's iPod/MP3 player/CD player whilst another is conversing and vice versa. It has always aggravated me when someone has done that to me or when I see it happening. It is outwardly saying "My music is more important than you." Once I saw a young man at my school kissing his lover whilst he was listening to his iPod!



oh, i agree. I too see that all the time at my school. What also aggravates me is when in the middle of conversation people will answer their phone AND start talking complete, unimportant nonsense with the person on the other line without saying "sorry Im busy" or to even you "Excuse me while i take this call".

[dramasnot6]

Oh, it's my pleasure, Miss Dramasnot, and I am honored!


:D Thank you! Some great sites. I laughed when i saw "Miss Dramasnot", a very lovely, sophisticated title for a rather gross name:p . If you want to use Mira or Drame thatd be fine too.

Here's one about speaking etiquette, though it is centered more on the working world.

http://www.itplacements.com/ITP/SpeakingwithEtiquette.html

http://www.career.fsu.edu/ccis/guides/etiquette.html


Actually i found this first one the most relevant and useful. Especially the messaging and email advice, i learned a lot from that section. Their little smiley chart was also a cute touch:)
Thanks Miss Lily! As usual, your resourcefulness is very impressive:D

[Shadowsarin]

I've always been curious about this, and I guess this is the perfect topic to ask. Why is it wrong to put your elbows on a table when eating?

[Pensive]

I've always been curious about this, and I guess this is the perfect topic to ask. Why is it wrong to put your elbows on a table when eating?
Maybe because it offends the table.

And why does it offend the table, you will have to ask the table. :(

[Lily Adams]

Crossing one's legs is not salubrious for the circulatory system, for that matter!

Yes, Miss Drame! :) I just didn't know what else to call you, and you're very welcome!

About the elbows on the table bit-it is bad for digestion for one thing, and it is just wrong. It might say you're bored, the food isn't good, or the host is bad, etc.

Here is a link on table manners, even though it says it's "for kids":

http://www.drdaveanddee.com/elbows.html

[Shadowsarin]

It might say you're bored, the food isn't good, or the host is bad, etc.

For me, it says I find it uncomfortable to not put elbows on tables, but ah well. Also, I will usually cross my legs too...And I eat quite fast...And And, in fact, lets list 'em all and show the world how much a slob I am!


Eat with a fork unless the food is meant to be eaten with fingers.

If chips/fries come under that, I'm screwed.


Don't stuff your mouth full of food, it looks gross, and they could choke.

Wow, a rule I actually agree with!


Chew with your mouth closed. No one wants to be grossed out seeing food being chewed up or hearing it being chomped on. This includes no talking with your mouth full.

Guilty as charged...occationally.


Don't make any rude comments about any food being served. It will hurt someone's feelings.

I won't if I know the person, but if I'm at a resterunt I will deffinatly, I'm paying for the food and thus my satisfaction is the key concern.


Always say thank you when served something. Shows appreciation.

If the person serving me is polite and friendly, then I will. Bored and moody teenage grots who have a vocabulary equal to the number of words I can spell correctly, bugger off. Once again, I'm paying to be there and thus they could make some effort.


If the meal is not buffet style, then wait until everyone is served before eating. It shows consideration.

I eat fast. Always have, always will.


Eat slowly, don't gobble up the food. Someone took a long time to prepare the food, enjoy it slowly. Slowly means to wait about 5 seconds after swallowing before getting another forkful.

Same as above.


When eating rolls, break off a piece of bread before buttering. Eating a whole piece of bread looks tacky.

I personally find it looks human...


Don't reach over someone's plate for something, ask for the item to be passed to you. Shows consideration.

If I know the person I will usually reach, if I don't I won't.


Don't pick anything out of your teeth, it's gross. If it bothers you that bad, excuse yourself and go to the restroom to pick.

Have these people ever eaten a steak before?!


Always use a napkin to dab your mouth, which should be on your lap when not in use. Remember, dab your mouth only.

Oh, so thats what that thingy was. I just though it was there to look nice...


When eating at someone's home or a guest of someone at a restaurant, always thank the host and tell them how delicious it was, even if it wasn't. Again, someone took time, energy, and expense to prepare the food, show your appreciation.

So its polite to lie? In fact its expected that you lie? Actually, I've never been in this position before, so I don't know what I'd do. However, when it comes to food, I like being honest about it.

Hmm, perhaps I should stop now before I give you a stroke?

[Lily Adams]

I'd rather not make this into an argument. I opened this thread for friendly conversation, not scoffing.

You may do what you will, I agree that etiquette is not needed in all situations, but sometimes having good manners is a matter of getting hired for a job or not.

[Shadowsarin]

*Re-reads all posts made by me in this topic*

*Takes head out of backside*

Ah, it seems I came across a lot more agressive than I intended to, and I appologise for that. So, sorry I was a jerk.


(Why was the word a*s blocked? I cannot logically see the reason for that...)

[Lily Adams]

That's alright. Anyone who has the courage to apologize is okay in my book. :)

[kathycf]

Ah, manners. Nice idea fora thread, Lily. :) In my opinion, no discussion of manners is complete without "Miss Manners" (Judith Martin, syndicated columnist and author). I think she is pretty funny in a dry way and usually gives very good advice regarding sticky situations such as this:

Dear Miss Manners:

I work in a corporate setting and sit in a cubicle. My assistant sits about 10 feet away in her cube. Just about every single time someone comes to my desk to speak with me, she runs over to "crash" the conversation.This happens about three or more times a day. The last time she did it -- about 15 minutes ago -- she actually hopped up onto my desk and began swinging her legs! I tried to be subtle and ask her, "Gee, are you comfortable up there?" to which she coolly replied, "Yes, very, thank you." ....Read More about this. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/12/AR2006091201322.html)


Another fun site is Gothic Charm School (http://www.gothic-charm-school.com/), which answers many pressing etiquette questions for the young Goth around town. Is The Cure goth or merely "Emo" music? Now you can know for sure! ;)

[Nightshade]

Shadow there is a vulgarity filter on the forum, there is info about it under forum rules. I think manners are good and all but when I was in high school we actually had etiquette classes and that is the only class I have ever scived ad I did it with a totally free conciounse, Im happy I did actually becasue thats how I cam to help the librarian (she was ancient 16 the year of the corination of QEII) and she couldnt be expected to stand on rickety chairs.
BUt it was ok becasue all they taught us was the salsa and even though I was shortest I got to be the boy becasue the boys refused to dance with me or my friend , it was one of the worst experiances of my life.

My manners problem is my tendencey to say wha'? instead of pardon. somtimes I do sorry what? but still must rember pardon!

[dramasnot6]

I think language is the hardest pattern to break. I too used to have the problem with "pardon" instead of "what" and under very nervous conditions i will still sometimes slip a "what" out. But the best way to break those verbal bad habits i find is practice. I used to just try to repeat the proper phase or word many times to embed it in my mind but that was very much a failure. Its ok to slip up a few times at first, just as long as you dont give up. Same philosophy for most things actually....

[dramasnot6]

Ah, manners. Nice idea fora thread, Lily. :) In my opinion, no discussion of manners is complete without "Miss Manners" (Judith Martin, syndicated columnist and author). I think she is pretty funny in a dry way and usually gives very good advice regarding sticky situations such as this:


Another fun site is Gothic Charm School (http://www.gothic-charm-school.com/), which answers many pressing etiquette questions for the young Goth around town. Is The Cure goth or merely "Emo" music? Now you can know for sure! ;)

That gothic charm school was amazing Kathy!! The graphics were wonderful, and the writing was both hilarious and informative. Thanks!

[mir]

this is a good idea for a thread, Lily!! I could really use it! :p My family is middle-class, or not very formal anyways; but my grandparents are very much so, and i'm always getting into trouble when i go to visit them. possibly because i have a bad memory, and can never quite remember WHICH side of the plate the spoon goes on! :p

[Lily Adams]

Thank you for the compliments, and thank you, Miss kathycf, for the interesting links.

Here is a site about proper table-setting:

http://www.smpub.com/setatable/setatable.html

[TEND]

Hee hee, I love it, for some reason I've always had an interest in different concepts of proper behaviour, please continue to educate ladies :D .

[kathycf]

You're welcome Miss Lily. :) I like the informal setting, and I get very peeved when I go out to a restaurant and they don't have salad forks. Just too casual. I am not very formal, but I hate to have a dirty fork hanging around between the salad and the dinner.

[kathycf]

Hee hee, I love it, for some reason I've always had an interest in different concepts of proper behaviour, please continue to educate ladies :D .
Gah! Men! :p

[Pensive]

Here is a site about proper table-setting:

http://www.smpub.com/setatable/setatable.html

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Who cares about the table setting as long as Custard, Ice-cream, Salad, Mangoes, Soup and Noodles are present on the table? :p :D

[SleepyWitch]

I think language is the hardest pattern to break. I too used to have the problem with "pardon" instead of "what" and under very nervous conditions i will still sometimes slip a "what" out. But the best way to break those verbal bad habits i find is practice. I used to just try to repeat the proper phase or word many times to embed it in my mind but that was very much a failure. Its ok to slip up a few times at first, just as long as you dont give up. Same philosophy for most things actually....

hehe, I read this book "Watching the English" by an English anthropologist and she says that "pardon" marks you as middle class (i.e. eager to climb the social ladder, likely to order three piece furniture suits :sick: and concerned with lots of superficial things upper class people can't be bothered about). Both the working classes and the upper class use "What?" :) Of course, it might be totally different in the U.S.

I think as a general rule, the key to etiquette is to act appropriately in different situatoins. I.e. stick to etiquette rules in formal situations but in informal ones they are out of place!

Miss Lily, I absolutely agree with you that some civility doesn't hurt. But the rules you quoted are from what? the 19th century? Etiquette rules change over time and many of the things that were the norm then have changed radically since. It would be awfully nice if you could find an up to date manners guide. Is there something like the standard work on etiquette for the U.S. or U.K.? I only know the German one, sorry :(

[Lily Adams]

Well, people here in the United States use hardly any etiquette, unfortunately, or at least at my school there isn't any. I know these rules are from the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, some apply to today, and some don't. Either way it's just fun reading about them, and if you ever go to a really fancy dinner party or you have to participate in a historical reenactment, (I have already been in one, and I plan to partake in more to come.) you can always look these sites up for help and ideas. I created this

Yes, I quite agree, Miss Kathy, then you get all that salad dressing all over your dinner. XP

[Shalot]

My favorite "rule" of etiquette comes from my husband. He tells me that if you must belch at the dinner table, the polite thing to do is burp into your napkin and say "excuse me" to no one in particular.

What about farting? I hate when someone farts and then says excuse me. I would rather they just act like it didn't happen. Because if you say excuse me, then you acknowledge the fart and I don't think it's necessary.

I don't mind if someone says excuse me when they burp though. I might be weird, but that's the way I feel about it. In my etiquette book, the rule would be

"Farts should not be acknowledged in any way. A sublte scrunching of the nose in the event of a particulary acrid expulsion is acceptable." (and yes, fart would be an acceptable word in Shalot's Book of Etiquette.)

[Virgil]

My favorite "rule" of etiquette comes from my husband. He tells me that if you must belch at the dinner table, the polite thing to do is burp into your napkin and say "excuse me" to no one in particular.

What about farting? I hate when someone farts and then says excuse me. I would rather they just act like it didn't happen. Because if you say excuse me, then you acknowledge the fart and I don't think it's necessary.

I don't mind if someone says excuse me when they burp though. I might be weird, but that's the way I feel about it. In my etiquette book, the rule would be

"Farts should not be acknowledged in any way. A sublte scrunching of the nose in the event of a particulary acrid expulsion is acceptable." (and yes, fart would be an acceptable word in Shalot's Book of Etiquette.)

I feel the same with everything you say there, Shalot. The one time someone farted and said excuse me, I was in shock. :lol:

[Virgil]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Well, people here in the United States use hardly any etiquette, unfortunately, or at least at my school there isn't any. I know these rules are from the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, some apply to today, and some don't.

Well, what makes you say it's any different outside the US. I haven't noticed any better manners in my travels outside the country.

[Pensive]

...I know these rules are from the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, some apply to today, and some don't. Either way it's just fun reading about them...


Yes, I agree. These are really fun to read. Gave me a hearty laugh, which is very good when exams are near. :p

Thanks for sharing! Seriously, they were fun. Especially, the one about "not placing elbows on the table" cracked me with laughter. :D

[Lily Adams]

I have never traveled outside the U.S., so I don't know, and I don't expect manners to be better anywhere else, (I didn't say that!) but the things the people do and say at my school disgust and astound me.

:nod: My favorite rules come from "The Exercise of a Schoolboy" one that I put in my first post.

"7th Put not off your Cloths in the presence of Others, nor go out your Chamber half Drest. "

"12th Shake not the head, Feet, or Legs rowl not the Eys lift not one eyebrow higher than the other wry not the mouth, and bedew no mans face with your Spittle, by approaching too near him when you Speak."

:lol:

[SleepyWitch]

Yes, I agree. These are really fun to read. Gave me a hearty laugh, which is very good when exams are near. :p

Thanks for sharing! Seriously, they were fun. Especially, the one about "not placing elbows on the table" cracked me with laughter. :D

it's a JOKE? might have told me. I find them hilarious, too :)

the other day a friend and me went to a fancy 3 course dinner (it was for free, so it missed one of it's 3 courses, but never mind).
She said you can do anything as long as you pull it off with style (i.e. not in a self-conscious manner that seems concerned about etiquette). I think i'll stick by her rule because a) she's going to be a professor of American Literature, so she has to know and b) her rule made it possible for us to eat 5 scoops of ice cream each :)

on a more serious note, I need advice on this:

Intrude not where you're not desired,
our big boss sometimes asks people to go out with him and i know he wouldn't mind me coming along, but a friend of mine thinks he hates her and doesn't want her to come along. I think the real problem is that he doesn't know how to invite us. If he manages at all, it's through his colleague.
So we usually end up going out on our own, but I'm almost sure he wouldn't mind us coming along.
it's like we don't want to intrude but he expects us to somehow know whether we are welcome or not on particular occasions. And since he's the boss we don't want to be pushy, so we wait for him to invite us.
I usually cling to my friend because she's higher up in our unofficial hierarchy
---> what can I do about that?

[Pensive]

on a more serious note, I need advice on this:

our big boss sometimes asks people to go out with him and i know he wouldn't mind me coming along, but a friend of mine thinks he hates her and doesn't want her to come along. I think the real problem is that he doesn't know how to invite us. If he manages at all, it's through his colleague.
So we usually end up going out on our own, but I'm almost sure he wouldn't mind us coming along.
it's like we don't want to intrude but he expects us to somehow know whether we are welcome or not on particular occasions. And since he's the boss we don't want to be pushy, so we wait for him to invite us.
I usually cling to my friend because she's higher up in our unofficial hierarchy
---> what can I do about that?

Has he invited the whole office? (I mean the workers) If he hasn't, then I think that it would not be too wise to go out with him. It is not about manners but about a right of individual to spend his time with whoever he wants. :) You people (friend and you) can always go somewhere by yourself to have ice-cream or anything. :D Don't feel bad if the boss has not invited you. It is his choice.

But if he has invited all the workers/his colleagues, then you and your friend must go out with him. Your friend should not care whether they are on good terms, not going with him would even mess this up more.