Language Use in Poems

[muhsin]

Hello,
For long, language use by poets always suprise me. Yes, suprise in the sense that it isn't widely use by people in spoken or written English. How is this so?

Secondly, this language also, is to many, a great deal to deal with i.e to fathom. And this is what nowadays make this genre the most uncherished (to use this word 'uncherish' if it ever exist). Why not just write in simple language? I could remember oneday, when I aksed my teacher this very question and he had this to say; Poem is a language that tells more and more than an ordinary language. Is his defition in line?

Lastly, I know this thread should have been in not this forum but the one specified for poems. My reason is that; that forum don't attract many viewers as this one does. :crash: Is that above reason that's working there?

-Muhsin

[dramasnot6]

Poetry tells so much because interpretations of poetry are infinite. Every time a poem is read the readers context is different then the last and therefore the poem draws different meanings.

[Goodfella]

This remind me one saying I had once come across. And this is: .....If people would only say what they have to say in plain terms, how more eloquent they would be" Thus, I don't have much interest in that genre of literature.
Is that good idea?:flare:

[ShoutGrace]

The main object of poetry is not to relate to you a notion, story, idea, image or thought in the plainest possible terms. It is an art form which is able to provide for you a number of different things.



“Only one ship is seeking us, a black-
Sailed unfamiliar, towing at her back
A huge and birdless silence. In her wake
No waters breed or break.”



Why didn't Larkin just say that death eventually comes for everybody, and that there is nothing 'after' it? This is a more simplistic way of rendering it, but doesn't resonate nearly as well, nor does it convey the terror of death - as an active, 'seeking', dark monstrosity. Compare these two ways to communicate the notion of death as a final, obliterating surety. Here you will find one of the many differences between poetry and everything else.

[stlukesguild]

ShoutGrace pretty much says what I would say as well. To simply say something in plain and ordinary language is not necessarily what a poet is after because poetry is art and art involves embodying the content (what is said) in an artful/beautiful/expressive form.

How many poems simply say something to the effect of "you are going to get old and die so you better enjoy some lovin' now... preferrably with me"? Yet how much more is said through the language of actual poems such as:

When you are old, at eve, by candlelight,
Sitting by the fire, to unwind you skein and spin,
You'll sing my verses and in wonderment will say:
"Ronsard so honored me when I was young and fair."

Then every servent girl of yours, on hearing this,
Thenceforth, though she be half asleep at humdrum toil,
Will rouse herself to listen when she hears my name,
And lines that sanctify your name with deathless praise.

I'll be beneath the earth, and just a boneless ghost'
In the myrtle's shade, I'll be taking my repose;
And you beside the hearth will be a huddled crone

Regretting my lost love and your own proud disdain.
So heed my words, and live, 'wait not tomorrow's dawn,
But pick life's roses now, today, before they're gone.'

(Quand vous serez bien vieille, au soir à la chandelle,
Assise auprès du feu, dévidant et filant,
Direz chantant mes vers, en vous émerveillant :
« Ronsard me célébrait du temps que j'étais belle. »

Lors vous n'aurez servante oyant telle nouvelle,
Déjà sous le labeur à demi sommeillant,
Qui au bruit de mon nom ne s'aille réveillant,
Bénissant votre nom, de louange immortelle.

Je serai sous la terre et, fantôme sans os,
Par les ombres myrteux je prendrai mon repos ;
Vous serez au foyer une vieille accroupie,

Regrettant mon amour et votre fier dédain.
Vivez, si m'en croyez, n'attendez à demain :
Cueillez dès aujourd'hui les roses de la vie.)

Pierre Ronsard

To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying:
And this same flower that smiles to-day
To-morrow will be dying.

The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he's a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he's to setting.

That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.

Then be not coy, but use your time,
And while ye may, go marry:
For having lost but once your prime,
You may for ever tarry.

Robert Herrick

The art lies in the form... in the words or the colors or the musical sounds... and not merely in the ideas being conveyed.

[Goodfella]

Suprise! How can you say poetry doens't mean to send message to its readers? I'm curious about that point Shortgrace and stlukesguid.

[ShoutGrace]

Could you point out where either I or stlukesguild said that, please?

[Virgil]

[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="2"]Hello,
For long, language use by poets always suprise me. Yes, suprise in the sense that it isn't widely use by people in spoken or written English. How is this so?


The art of poetry is to use language in a different way. In a way that is not routine or mundane. I call that language, "charged language." That is why poets use rhythm or rhyme or metaphors and similes and sharp images. Use of those things are outside the norm, for the most part. No one speaks like that. They heighten the language. Yes, it has to have meaning. It can't just be jibberish. It has to move the reader, because heightened language does that. The themes are important but somewhat secondary. The themes for the most part have all been said before, as St. Lukes points out. If I poet was trying to convey an idea, then he could have just written an essay. But by using charged language, poetry, he gets you to feel it and think about it in a way that is not just a flat statement. Now great poetry is when the form and language match the theme. When the two work in harmony, then it approaches perfection, the sublime. Also poetry that seems like it is spoken language but carefully under examination is "charged" is also great poetry.

I was writing fast and rambling. I hope I made sense.

[Eagleheart]

One of Bulgaria's most esteemed national poets chose to write a poem in his cell addressing his strivings and causes before being hanged by the authorities. Not a pamphlet, not a letter...Why I mention this. It is /in relation to the subject/...open for interpretation

[muhsin]

Suprise! How can you say poetry doens't mean to send message to its readers? I'm curious about that point Shortgrace and stlukesguid.

Who do you mean Mr/Mrs Goodfella?

[muhsin]

One of Bulgaria's most esteemed national poets chose to write a poem in his cell addressing his strivings and causes before being hanged by the authorities. Not a pamphlet, not a letter...Why I mention this. It is /in relation to the subject/...open for interpretation

I had never heard of him. But, how do you think its related to this subject?

[muhsin]

The main object of poetry is not to relate to you a notion, story, idea, image or thought in the plainest possible terms. It is an art form which is able to provide for you a number of different things.



“Only one ship is seeking us, a black-
Sailed unfamiliar, towing at her back
A huge and birdless silence. In her wake
No waters breed or break.”



Why didn't Larkin just say that death eventually comes for everybody, and that there is nothing 'after' it? This is a more simplistic way of rendering it, but doesn't resonate nearly as well, nor does it convey the terror of death - as an active, 'seeking', dark monstrosity. Compare these two ways to communicate the notion of death as a final, obliterating surety. Here you will find one of the many differences between poetry and everything else.

Thanks...I now have started getting its head and tail. Any more explanation Shortgrace?

[ShoutGrace]

Thanks...I now have started getting its head and tail. Any more explanation Shortgrace?

What part did you have trouble with?

[Whifflingpin]

Thanks...I now have started getting its head and tail.

Aha, metaphorical use of language!

"getting its head and tail"

So Muhsin, you could have written "now I begin to understand," but you chose instead to use a metaphor.

Whether you thought about it or not, you likened the problem to an animal, made of complex parts but recognisable as a coherent whole, maybe a lively thing whose movement confuses the senses, but, when someone has shown you the nose, you can work out where all the other parts must be.

Of course, I may well be reading more into "getting its head and tail" than you meant, which is what makes poetic language both difficult and interesting.

Schoolchildren, years from now, may write whole essays on "What did the great poet Muhsin mean when he said "I now have started getting its head and tail"?"

[muhsin]

What part did you have trouble with?

Actually the words. Can I just write my poem in plain language? Can that really makes world of sense?
Again, must one write his peom with rhythm and rhyme eg AABB or ABAB etc?
I'm afraid or my question is on the right path....:flare:

[muhsin]

Aha, metaphorical use of language!

"getting its head and tail"

So Muhsin, you could have written "now I begin to understand," but you chose instead to use a metaphor.

Whether you thought about it or not, you likened the problem to an animal, made of complex parts but recognisable as a coherent whole, maybe a lively thing whose movement confuses the senses, but, when someone has shown you the nose, you can work out where all the other parts must be.

Of course, I may well be reading more into "getting its head and tail" than you meant, which is what makes poetic language both difficult and interesting.

Schoolchildren, years from now, may write whole essays on "What did the great poet Muhsin mean when he said "I now have started getting its head and tail"?"

Thanks for the approach. Whifflingpin, you are sound like a real great poem but Muhsin is just like an infant in the field. I mean what I said. Don't even think am teasing. Reason; even the English I write or speak, I perfectly well know that has lots of errors. Pls. bear with me.

[Eagleheart]

Muhsin, I only just saw your question...
Well-it follows the same line as all our major national figures do. The poetic form most profoundly expresses their strivings/ most of these personalities participated in the national-liberation movement/...I mentioned it as an example of how poetic language is no "consolation for the emotionally unstable" / in the radical stand/ or inferior to other forms of expression. Moreover the poetic language has all the characteristics of the influential one- even fits the propoganda scheme sometimes here in Bulgaria/ we have some poetic demagogues at present/...and serves to illuminate some serious causes...

[Goodfella]

Could you point out where either I or stlukesguild said that, please?


Who do you mean Mr/Mrs Goodfella?

Sorry my people. Don't please kill me with words. I just, as none of you is above that, fail to get its gist for the first time. But now I read it for a considerable time for better contextual comprehense and I now got it all.
Once more; forgive me.
:crash: :crash: :crash:

[Whifflingpin]

Muhsin:" even the English I write or speak, I perfectly well know that has lots of errors. Pls. bear with me."

You speak English far better than I speak your native language (Is it Hausa?)
In fact I know only one phrase - "Fadan da babu ruwanka, dadin kallone dashi" and I learnt that from you.

That phrase is certainly poetic. 1) It makes its point neatly; 2) It has meaning more than the simple interpretation of the words; 3) It has rhythm; 4) It has a defined form, (it is balanced around a pause, or could be written on two lines as a couplet.)

Rhyme is not necessary. Bad use of rhyme may spoil a poem. Good use of it may help with the form or sound of the poem. More importantly, good use of rhyme can relate the ideas in a poem on a level that mere punctuation does not.

[muhsin]

Muhsin:" even the English I write or speak, I perfectly well know that has lots of errors. Pls. bear with me."

You speak English far better than I speak your native language (Is it Hausa?)
In fact I know only one phrase - "Fadan da babu ruwanka, dadin kallone dashi" and I learnt that from you.

That phrase is certainly poetic. 1) It makes its point neatly; 2) It has meaning more than the simple interpretation of the words; 3) It has rhythm; 4) It has a defined form, (it is balanced around a pause, or could be written on two lines as a couplet.)

Rhyme is not necessary. Bad use of rhyme may spoil a poem. Good use of it may help with the form or sound of the poem. More importantly, good use of rhyme can relate the ideas in a poem on a level that mere punctuation does not.

What a wonderful figure you are?

Whifflingpin, I had never knew people like you exist in this Site till this time around. How did you dig things like this about me? Have you ever heard of Hausa as a language? Okay, this is just by the way.

Your clarification is very important. And by God's grace, I'll be following every inch of it.

[pixordia]

There are many ways of writing a poem and when you truly begin to study poetry you will begin to see a story seeking a form or a if you begin writing in a set form your mind will be so occupied with following the form it will free the subconscious for the true feelings to emerge.
It is a fascinating process once it all starts to flow. With writing don't wait for perfection just write every day on eveything and nothing that moves you and soon it will begin to to conform to the beauty of language.
Pix

[muhsin]

There are many ways of writing a poem and when you truly begin to study poetry you will begin to see a story seeking a form or a if you begin writing in a set form your mind will be so occupied with following the form it will free the subconscious for the true feelings to emerge.
It is a fascinating process once it all starts to flow. With writing don't wait for perfection just write every day on eveything and nothing that moves you and soon it will begin to to conform to the beauty of language.
Pix

Write almost everyday? Did I got you right?
If the above answer is yes, I think this can be a welcome idea as one popular saying says; trying makes perfect. By God's grace, am gonna try that.
Thanks.

[chasestalling]

muhsin, if i may, was it not louis armstrong who said that if you have to ask what jazz is....don't remember the rest of it.

to cite a more recent example ed harris who enacts jackson pollock says in response to an interviewer's query what is art that art is....don't remember the rest.

i must be getting senile. the three dead men joke i remember however, and believe you me when i say that i'll be telling it the world over as long as i am able to draw breath.

best regards,
chasestalling

[muhsin]

muhsin, if i may, was it not louis armstrong who said that if you have to ask what jazz is....don't remember the rest of it.

to cite a more recent example ed harris who enacts jackson pollock says in response to an interviewer's query what is art that art is....don't remember the rest.

i must be getting senile. the three dead men joke i remember however, and believe you me when i say that i'll be telling it the world over as long as i am able to draw breath.

best regards,
chasestalling

I got it all.:idea:

[Redzeppelin]

If I poet was trying to convey an idea, then he could have just written an essay. But by using charged language, poetry, he gets you to feel it and think about it in a way that is not just a flat statement. Now great poetry is when the form and language match the theme. When the two work in harmony, then it approaches perfection, the sublime. .


Well said (and by the way, Virgil, my compliments to your signature - Faulkner is a monster - a startling writer). When I teach poetry, I floor my students by telling them that poetry is not really about "expressing emotions" (they are hopelessly Romantic [capital R] in their conception of poetry); poetry is all about words. The language is the message. Once you change the language, you have changed the message of the poem. A poem full of profound ideas communicated in mundane language might as well have been an essay. But, well chosen language - language that is chosen for its sound and connotation - can make even a trite idea memorable.


I was writing fast and rambling. I hope I made sense.

I think you spoke quite well.

[mir]

hmmm . . . .

interesting stuff, Muhsin. I was actually talking about this, and about all the nuances of language people use, with my dad earlier today. I think it's just what fits the situation. in regular talk, you are supposed to keep to a very sequential and minimalistic norm. you try to get across only the idea of what you are trying to say, and maybe the details. Poetry, however, has evolved so that it HAS to be different from normal speech. We have things like freeverse, and other forms of poetry that would be indistinguishable from regular talk unless their language was different. You look for a flow, and I personally go by the feel of the words, which combines with the meaning to be often very different from talk. Talk is functional; poetry is beautiful; because they have different functions they need different words. My favorite poem of all is Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark (i know i just probably spelled all that wrong, sorry, it's 1:00 AM) which makes up a bunch of words to get its meaning across. but it definitely gets it.

I don't know if that helps, but it's what i think about it. :)

[muhsin]

It really does help, mir. Its very kind of you to offer such for me.

[brokenheartpoet]

You can write free verse or blank verse with no rgyme but rhythm . And use all the literary terms and vivid imagery . Hope this helps.

[muhsin]

You can write free verse or blank verse with no rgyme but rhythm . And use all the literary terms and vivid imagery . Hope this helps.

I'll soon go over it to see how it'll work-out my seem-like unending problem with poems.
I'm very gratefull to you brokenheartpoet. Thanks.

[Adolescent09]

In my poetry, I try to convey a coherent and understandable idea with as few words as possible. I aim to use words that are a bit flowery but ideal. Explicit at times, but direct to the point so that the reader knows exactly what I'm saying. I think getting across your idea in the first part of the poem is crucial because it lays down the foundation of what is there and what might happen (since my poems tend to have a lot of cynical twists alluding to various forms of society and customs). I make my twists and outcomes as vague as possible, so as to require maybe a second or even third read to fathom my point, but at the same time I want them to be blatant and truthful. Vague, for instance instead of writing;
"The lion's tale swished back and forth"
write,
"A stretch of fur tipped gold oscillating in the breeze"..

I'm not sure if this helped any... but this is the extent of my knowledge on poetry..lol.

[muhsin]

In my poetry, I try to convey a coherent and understandable idea with as few words as possible. I aim to use words that are a bit flowery but ideal. Explicit at times, but direct to the point so that the reader knows exactly what I'm saying. I think getting across your idea in the first part of the poem is crucial because it lays down the foundation of what is there and what might happen (since my poems tend to have a lot of cynical twists alluding to various forms of society and customs). I make my twists and outcomes as vague as possible, so as to require maybe a second or even third read to fathom my point, but at the same time I want them to be blatant and truthful. Vague, for instance instead of writing;
"The lion's tale swished back and forth"
write,
"A stretch of fur tipped gold oscillating in the breeze"..

I'm not sure if this helped any... but this is the extent of my knowledge on poetry..lol.

Thanks. And how can I get a copy of your poems. Or even a link, I mean.

[Adolescent09]

Here are some of my poetic works excerpted from poem book I'm writing.You can tell me what you think. (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21646)

[muhsin]

Thanks for the link.