One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

[fayefaye]

anyone?

[Capnplank]

Nurse Ratched is eeeeevil.

[amuse]

Chief talking was a shock!
Did you think Harding was gay? I somehow never got that sense.

[den]

Originally posted by fayefaye
anyone?

Yeah, I think I did last weekend :D

[simon]

Cuckoo's Nest is great, I remember reading it for a book report in the early years of high school, and beginning to understand authority, and the idea of subtlety.

[Koa]

i just found out it's a book... ignorant me knew only the movie (and doesnt remember much of it)

[simon]

The movie's with Jack Nicholson right?

[IWilKikU]

Yeah. I havn't read the book, but what a great film!

[fayefaye]

I totally thought Harding was gay. Which is what was weird about him having a wife. what was with that 'turtleneck years'?

[ravana]

I also saw only the film. Full of heart breaking scenes.

[emily655321]

LOL I stayed out of this one because I hadn't read the book, but now I don't feel dumb anymore. Thanks guys. (How's that for a backhanded compliment? :D) I guess I should have saved my story about seeing Sinise on Broadway for this thread, eh? Anyway, I found the story in play-form much more compelling than the film, because the stage already creates a trapped atmostphere. The way they built the set was to pull the curtain all the way up to the ceiling, and extend the walls of the set all the way up on all sides, with one barred window at the very top -- like a high school gymnasium. (Apt, eh? :p) They had reallly great sunset-type lighting coming throught it, and Chief and Whatshisname stood all the way in the corner with their necks craned up at it when they were talking about the cuckoos. That's really the one image that sticks with me, but it was almost like a diarama of their... trappy-ness. In the movie you obviously get a broader view of the institution as they experience it, but in the theater I felt like it was a better visual of their mental/emotional perception of the place. Was good.

[amuse]

i was horrified by nurse ratchet. and the two gay guys (janitors) grossed me out. what were they like in the play?

[fayefaye]

Everyone hates nurse ratchet, of course.

[subterranean]

I love Milos since I saw the movie..
You rock man!

[IWilKikU]

Sub, your new Avatar is hanging on my wall!!!

[Sancho]

Can't believe you twenty-somethings still dig the Lizard-King. Bravo! I put a bottle of Bushmills on his grave just last month.

[emily655321]

az -- I can't remember much about them from the play. Pretty standardly evil, I think. :D But the Playbill did have a lot to say about the actress who played Ratchet, if I recall. I guess she got a lot of praise from the critics.

I love your avatar too, Subby! Sancho -- you'll be happy to know that Jim's youth following is very much alive and well. I've been a fan since 8th grade, and almost all my friends love the Doors. :D I put a white rose on his grave a couple February's back, but I guess I put my foot on the edge or something, because all of a sudden I got called, "Madame, madame!" very frantically and the guard moved us along. Oops!

[fayefaye]

Guys, I have to write an essay on this. Can we at least TRY to have a discussion on it? Pleeeeeaaaasssee?? Book or play, I don't even care, but you know, something at least KINDA relevant. Just this once.

Characterisation, perhaps?

[random_hero]

I think what isn't talked about enough is the influence of drugs on literature. I am personally against them, I think, but after reading letters by Kesey I realized the affect/effects are very dramatic. The scenes where chief Broom sees the mist coming over him, thank those to Peote and LSD. Kesey was high and working at a mental institution in Menlo Park, which is why the story is so compelling: the characters and some of the events are real, or based on real, people. I love the book, and it really is a must read. Oh, and by the way I performed a scene from the play and played MacMurray.

[amuse]

i mentioned that before, and how hard it was to read kesey's work. i still say it's because of the lsd.
faye, i would help more but we wrote about the book from a societal standpoint, rather than character. any specific questions?

[fayefaye]

No, we can discuss it from a societal standpoint, I was just trying to get a discussion going. I thought characterisation because eveybody started bringing up nurse ratchet and I wanted to talk about if she's really as evil as kasey would have us believe. And the gay black guys' significance. The significance of their being black too.

I hadn't thought about the lsd's role, I figured partially because it was written from the chief's pov, and he's supposed to be a little crazy anyway, plus the metaphor, etc of it.

What did you think about it from a societal standpoint? or psychological/self image, etc?

[Sancho]

Sorry Faye, It’s been quite a few years since I’ve read that book and then it was for a school assignment so my reading wasn’t all that close. When I think about though, it has arguably had as great an influence on American culture as any 20th century novel. Here’s my take on the book:

Right or wrong, the American psyche (or myth) is centered around the “rugged individual,” you know, the cowboy mentality. Americans believe the nation was built by individuals who were strong, clever, resourceful, charismatic, hardworking and a little bit wild. But mostly America was built by individuals, and those individuals were emigrants. It’s starting to sound like McMurphy.

Individuals can be dangerous though, and must be controlled for the good of society as a whole and that’s starting to sound a bit Hobbesian. Thus we have the social machine, the Leviathan – the evil Nurse Ratchet. Could any one person really be as cruel as Nurse Ratchet? The Chief is a more ambiguous character, but of course, another group of undesirables that a society needs to control is that group that is being replaced. A good background book on North American history from the perspective of the Native American is Dee Brown’s “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee.”

Well the rest of the inmates in Cuckoo’s Nest we discover, reside there voluntarily. I suppose the vast majority of the population begrudgingly accepts the control that the state imposes on them. So I’m thinking that the book is about, at least in part, the insane asylum as an allegory for American Society and the loss of individually and freedom to the state. You know, the little guy against the government, the social machine the Leviathan.

Well anyway, I guess you have to take the novel within the context of who wrote it and when it was written. I’m not sure how well Ken Kesey knew Jack Kerouac but his association with Neal Cassidy (the Moriarty characture in "On the Road")is well known and well documented in Tom Wolfe’s book “The Electric Cool Aide Acid Test.” Kesey’s “Merry Band of Pranksters” marked the beginning of the Hippie culture in the sixties and was the direct descendant of Kerouac’s “Beats.” What was left of the Merry Band when Kesey left (Mountain Girl etc) became the group of hipsters who followed the Grateful Dead and were centered around the Haight Asbury region of San Francisco. After the “summer of love” and Woodstock turned to hate with the violence at the Rolling Stones concert at Altamont, Rock and Roll began to change. One group that marked that change was the Doors. They didn’t just sing about Love and stuff. – Therefore, We didn’t actually stray from the original subject of the tread after all with all of that Morrison stuff. Well OK, I’m stretching it. Ha.

[random_hero]

Actually, that was like 6 degrees of seperation, and it was a good read too.

[emily655321]

Impressive use of logic, Sanch. :D

[imthefoolonthehill]

I loved this book, and read it twice.

we all feel like Chief Broom at some point or another... I especially love how he explains when he started to feel ignored. One of the funnest things in the world is to try to go entire days without speaking. my record (for real) is 2 days and 4 hours without a word. try it... it can be very challenging and enlightening.

McMurphy does arouse the passionate American in me, the wild individualistic part of me. Nurse Ratcet is an absolutely beautiful symbol of authority and administration.

again... I loved the book, but loaned my copy out to someone and can't find it... so that makes me sad. :-(... I guess I'll get over it. But I don't think I'll be seeing through the fog any time soon...

a friend of mine talk about the fog machines all the time. It passes the time and acts as infrared goggles at times.

[subterranean]

Originally posted by IWilKikU
Sub, your new Avatar is hanging on my wall!!!



Kewl Mike...this one is kinda blur though.


Originally posted by sancho
Can't believe you twenty-somethings still dig the Lizard-King. Bravo! I put a bottle of Bushmills on his grave just last month

Lucky You! :)


Well anyway, I guess you have to take the novel within the context of who wrote it and when it was written. I’m not sure how well Ken Kesey knew Jack Kerouac but his association with Neal Cassidy (the Moriarty characture in "On the Road")is well known and well documented in Tom Wolfe’s book “The Electric Cool Aide Acid Test.” Kesey’s “Merry Band of Pranksters” marked the beginning of the Hippie culture in the sixties and was the direct descendant of Kerouac’s “Beats.” What was left of the Merry Band when Kesey left (Mountain Girl etc) became the group of hipsters who followed the Grateful Dead and were centered around the Haight Asbury region of San Francisco. After the “summer of love” and Woodstock turned to hate with the violence at the Rolling Stones concert at Altamont, Rock and Roll began to change. One group that marked that change was the Doors. They didn’t just sing about Love and stuff. – Therefore, We didn’t actually stray from the original subject of the tread after all with all of that Morrison stuff. Well OK, I’m stretching it. Ha.

I suppose you're one of the lucky people who witness the golden age of music by your self.
I like reading the posts in here, i miss some interesting points about the story coz i only saw the movie.

[IWilKikU]

No sub, that exact blurry picture is on my wall. Same trippy colours and everything. That avatar is a picture of my poster.

[subterranean]

Well i saw the same poster but it's brighter than the one in my av..I get ur point about the poster...i have the half body grey, black and white poster.

[Sancho]

Hey Sub, well I missed most of it. I was in grammar school in the late sixties. But I did sort of get in on it. I grew in the South and we were still in the fifties during the sixties and didn’t really hit the sixties until the seventies.

Thanks Em. Not too sure about Sancho-logic though. RH may have a point with the six degree bit. Sorry you were hassled in Paris. I went there in the pouring rain with 3 of my coworkers. We put roses on Edith Piaf’s grave, and after passing it around a couple times, the whiskey on Jim’s grave.

I’m glad to see Jim Morrison still has an appeal across a broad spectrum of folks. My wife hates his stuff but she does seem to like that line in “Maggie McGill”:

- So when you’re down and you’re feelin’ blue
- Go out and buy a brand new pair of shoes…

[fayefaye]

Was I the only one reminded of Frankenstein?

[fayefaye]

ah hell. Don't let me kill the thread; you guys go as off topic as you like.

What do you think of shows 'on ice'?

What do you think of faye failing english? :D

[simon]

No matter, failing english isn't too important, you can just fail write a play about it and then produce and direct it as a one act on ice, you can leap and frolic about on skates. You can charge people money and make some cash to retake english, if that is your desire for a second round of torture.

[Sancho]

What do you think of faye failing english? :D

Ah, Einstein was lousy student too.

[emily655321]

What's more important: passing English without knowing it (a.k.a kiss-***-extra-credit-over-achievers-who-couldn't-analyze-Faulkner-for-their-lives), or knowing it without passing it?

So you've got the knowledge without the grade. Which is going to serve you better in the long run?

[amuse]

definitely knowing without passing. it'll stay in your long-term better.

[kilted exile]

This was one of the last books I had to study in high school. On the first day we were given the book my english teacher (terrible, evil witch) told us all what happenned at the end of the story (much to my annoyance, as I had no prior knowledge of the book), and also what we should think of each of the characters (she wasn't much for freedom of expression).
When we were about halfway through the book, I happenned to venture the idea that McMurphy seemed to me a rather self-centred individual. She was none too pleased with my point of view, simply told me I was wrong (but did not explain why). It was at this point that I stopped paying attention to her. I wrote my own ideas on the novel during the exam and recieved a 70% (forunatley she did not mark my paper).
This experience has led to me giving up on "analysing" literature. I now read books only for the story.

***Rant Over***

[Sancho]

Just read a short article in Smithsonian's June '04 magazine about 60's pop culture. They had a picture of the actual "magic bus" and of Ken Kesey and Dean Cassady.

[fayefaye]

That was one cool bus. :)

[simon]

Didn't this thread have something to do with Ken Kesey at some point, that name sounds so familiar.

[Sancho]

Dat wuz wun kewl bus. I tried to find a link to a picture of it, but the Smithsonian's web site only had the text article. Oh well, the mag's on the stands. I'd read all that stuff years ago but it was really neat to see an actual photo.

simon, oddly enough we're really not all that far off subject this time. Ken Kesey wrote One Flew Over the Cuckcoo's Nest.

[genoveva]

Who here has read Ken Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Did you like it or not? What are your thoughts? I am especially interested in why someone would not like this book or not think it has literary significance.

[PeterL]

Who here has read Ken Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Did you like it or not? What are your thoughts? I am especially interested in why someone would not like this book or not think it has literary significance.

I read it and enjoyed it a number of years ago. I thought it was pretty good. I don't know why someone wouldn't like it, unless someone thinks that Kesey used too many words to get to the end.

[Martian Poet]

I've read it twice, and enjoyed it immensley both times. It is sad, moving, and most importatnly memorable. Although I did make the mistake of seeing the film first, and thus everytime R.P. McMurphy was in the book I couldn't help but picture Jack Nicholson in my mind. Although, for me, that made me enjoy it all the more considering I love Jack Nicholson's work as an actor.

[Thatch]

Although I did make the mistake of seeing the film first, and thus everytime R.P. McMurphy was in the book I couldn't help but picture Jack Nicholson in my mind.
:lol: Same here. I haven't read it in a while, but the first picture that comes to mind is when McMurphy taps the overhanging bat on the string as he waltzes in the room. Made me laugh as I pictured Jack Nicholson.
I enjoyed reading the book, although I had to read it for school. It was my luck to have to read what I wanted to read anyway. And, yes, the novel is very moving. Now that someone has brought it up, I'll have to read it again some time.

[B-Mental]

Every time I read this I envision the main character of Catcher in the Rye. I don't know why.

[Bysshe]

I've read it and enjoyed it. I should probaby read it again, as it's one of those books where I confuse the film with the novel. I always hear Kesey and Kerouac compared to one another, but I loved One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest whereas I couldn't stand On the Road.

[genoveva]

How do people feel about the misogynist and racial overtones?

[NickAdams]

How do people feel about the misogynist and racial overtones?

It's the characters and the times. And it's always good to have misogyny when referencing Freud.;)

[Sancho]

The B & N bookstore near my house is going out of business and they’ve got everything marked way-way down. So, the other day I walked out of there with a killer deal on an arm load of books. Anyway, I just finished Ken Kesey’s One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. It’s a book I haven’t read since high school and that was, ahem, a while back.

The story is told by Chief Bromden, one of the patients in a mental institution. The Chief can eavesdrop on everybody’s conversations because he’s got everyone convinced he’s a deaf-mute; hence people speak freely around him. It’s an effective story-telling technique.

Here’s a little nugget I didn’t catch on to years ago when I first read it: The Chief describes one of the tattoos on MacMurphy’s arm as a poker hand, aces and eights. That hand is known as dead-man’s hand. It was what Wild Bill Hickok held when he was accused of cheating and murdered in Deadwood, South Dakota in the late 19th century. Foreshadowing?

[PeterL]

Here’s a little nugget I didn’t catch on to years ago when I first read it: The Chief describes one of the tattoos on MacMurphy’s arm as a poker hand, aces and eights. That hand is known as dead-man’s hand. It was what Wild Bill Hickok held when he was accused of cheating and murdered in Deadwood, South Dakota in the late 19th century. Foreshadowing?

There was no accusation that he was cheating. He was shot when he held the hand, but the shooter was not part of the game.

[Sancho]

There was no accusation that he was cheating. He was shot when he held the hand, but the shooter was not part of the game.

Whoops, thanks Pete.

Falsely accusing a man of cheating at poker is liable to get somebody shot.

[PeterL]

Whoops, thanks Peter.

Falsely accusing a man of cheating at poker is liable to get somebody shot.

I'm sure that he would love to shoot you.

[dfloyd]

At first released, he was later hung for his trouble. Wild Bill never sat in a poker seat where someone could get behind him, but he did this day and his mistake cost him his life. The presentation of the series Deadwood was fairly acurate, except for Hickok's affair with Calamity Jane. Hickcok was too much of a dandy to be involved with such a slatternly woman.

[Sancho]

Hey-hey, Dfloyd, good to see you again.

In an attempt to steer this thread back to the insane asylum in Oregon from the saloon in South Dakota, let me bring up a cute little group-therapy scene from the book.

Nurse Ratched insists on butchering MacMurphy’s name and calling him Mr. MacMurry. He finally gets fed up and says, “The name is MacMurphy!” The nurse says, “Okay, Mr. MacMur-fee.”

People are touchy about their names. Kind of like above where I truncated the ‘r’ on PeterL’s user-name and then he took the trouble to add it back in when he quoted me. Sorry, Pete-err.