Starting out in poetry?

[cloids]

Where does one start if he want to study poetry? I want to learn poetry but I have no idea where to begin. I mean, by no means do I want to just start writing it, first I have to learn how to read it right? Your suggestions would be helpful.

Does anyone recommended I purchase the Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetics. What do you think? Keep in mind I am very new to this.

[piquant]

Start writing, accepting that what you write is crap, but keep the pen, moving. At the same time, read poetry to learn more about it. My biggest suggestion is to take a class (like creative writing). I never knew how to read poetry before I took that class, so I was getting very little out of what I was reading, and what I wrote never drifted even slightly above being complete drivel (and to this day, despite my efforts, lingers somewhere in this category)

I still have my syllabus from my creative writing class that defines a good poem. The professor is John Repp, and he has poetry books out and has written other things as well, so I respect his definition and advice. To quote him:

A good poem is a piece of writing arranged in lines and stanzas in which the how is at least as important as the what. In other words, a good poem embodies what it says by means of line-length, grammar, syntax, diction, imagry, figurative language, sound effects, and rhythmic qualities. When we read a good poem--if we're reading alertly--we experience it with our bodies.

For example, he used a poem by sappho in his lecture, where a "whirlwind swoops on an oak." When you say "whirlwind," you make a whirlwnd with your breath. It embodies what it says.

He also gave us this list of helpful advice, which I will paraphrase for you:

-Don't begin writing a poem with a message. Poems are not about "lessons"; poems are aboute experiences. Follow the poem where it wants to go. Robert Frost--No surprise for the writer, no surprise for the reader.

-Get a book that provides exercises for writing poetry, and commit yourself entirely to those exercises. (He provided us with a book that I can't remember the name of, but I can look it up if you want me to).

-If stuck, try writing in prose, then converting it to lines and stanzas.

-Practice with line length by specifing line length for yourself, then see what effect it has (try something short, and something very long; specify numbers of sylables, or locations of parts of speech)

-Try end-stopped lines and enjambed lines--see how this affects the poem

-Use active verbs, concrete nouns, precise adjectives (only when necessary), adverbs almost never. Beware of stringsof prepositional phrases.

-Don't try to rhyme. Unless carefully handled it often sounds nursery rhymish.

Well, this is the advice he gave us, aside from what he tought in class throughout the semester. (If you ever are in edinboro, PA, I recommend the class highly). Although, I must warn you, after working for weeks I still sucked, and probably always will. But at least I know how to enjoy other people's poetry now.

[cloids]

Wow! Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it.

>-Get a book that provides exercises for writing poetry, and commit yourself entirely to those exercises. (He provided us with a book that I can't remember the name of, but I can look it up if you want me to).

Hmm, if it is no trouble, I would ask of you to look it up for me, please.

Many thanks!

[piquant]

It's up at school, and I don't go back until the 12th, but I'll find it for you then.

[Isagel]

For some reason reading rules on how to make poetry makes me all defensive. Not very mature of me. Piqaunt makes good points.
And ways of writing - like Haiku can be wonderful toys for the mind.

Still, my advice would be to learn to love words. Some are born with that gift. Some just have to learn it. Try them. Feel them in your mouth. Try an ordinary word like chair and say it loud until you can hear the sound and almost forget the meaning the sound had. Taste the sound, and find out which colour it has with the tip of your tounge. I think Kipling said that words are the most powerful drug known to mankind. Words are magic. You can use them to make a person laugh or cry. Words can raise more passion than a mere caress.

For practice- Try spelling roadsigns backwards. Or take every second word out of a newspapers headline. Describe how an orange tastes like without using the words sour or sweet. Describe your fathers face. Write ramblings on poetry and magic on a forum to a person you do not know and make evryone think you are a lunatic.

Be fantastic. And let me read when your done.

[sloegin]

Poetry, or art for that matter, is a result of life. Live and ye shall understand.

[piquant]

The practice of poetry was the name of the book. I agree with Isagel, which is surprising because she was disagreeing with me. I think that most people don't start out knowing how to love words--they may not even know that it's okay to love words, or that it's possible to love words. This is what the rules and class are for, to try and teach that love of words to a bunch of business and economics majors. The rules are the beginning, and aren't really rules, but helpful hints. They're to help show you where the cliff is, so you can decide to jump off.

Sloegin, why then are there so many people who don't understand!?

[sloegin]

Piquant, so I can better answer your question; what is your definition of art (poetry included)? What purpose is it suppose to serve?

[Isagel]

Originally posted by piquant
I agree with Isagel, which is surprising because she was disagreeing with me. Does that mean I win? :D , just kidding.


Originally posted by piquant I think that most people don't start out knowing how to love words--they may not even know that it's okay to love words, or that it's possible to love words. This is what the rules and class are for, to try and teach that love of words to a bunch of business and economics majors. The rules are the beginning, and aren't really rules, but helpful hints. They're to help show you where the cliff is, so you can decide to jump off.
[/B]

Ok, then I understand you better. But rules in writing so easily turns into laws and dogmas. They stop being helpful pointers and start being restrictions. And I think that kills true peotry. But it might be easier to start there. Still curious on what Cloids will write...

And by the way, I think different anthologys of poetry are a great start. That´s the way I found Blake and Frost.

[piquant]

I don't think that all people naturally see the world. There are massive numbers of people who stumble through it blindly. Art for them is a non-issue. It is unessential and therefore inexpicable to them why people set such store by art. These are the people who walk through a modern art gallery by accident once in their life and question how rectangles of color are art.

I think that everyone has the possibility in them to love art and to create art. In a way, they have to be tought how to appreciate art--what to look for in a piece, what makes a good composition, etc. Some people see these things instinctively and others need to be tought to see them. And even people with an instinctive vision need training in seeing and creating, this is why artists even go to school, instead of secluding themselves with their childhood crayons and scribbling away their lives.

I am also not someone who thinks that anything an artist say is art is art. I think the goal of art is to find beauty and truth in the world, to somehow capture it, and then to show that beauty and truth to people who otherwise might miss it. It is sharing their unique vision of the world, the lens through which they see reality.

As to why art is important: I think that it is a form of transcendence. Life is dirty and ugly and foul. You scrounge for a living your entire life, but eventually die. Everything when looked at in scale, is phenominally unimportant. Art brings the viewer above that, out of the realm of desire, out of wanting and needing and striving. It creates moments of silence, of stillness, of timelessness. Art will never be what makes survival possible, but it will always be what makes survival desireable.

[sloegin]

Originally posted by piquant
I don't think that all people naturally see the world. There are massive numbers of people who stumble through it blindly. Art for them is a non-issue. It is unessential and therefore inexpicable to them why people set such store by art. These are the people who walk through a modern art gallery by accident once in their life and question how rectangles of color are art.
Good, they should question it.


I think that everyone has the possibility in them to love art and to create art. In a way, they have to be tought how to appreciate art--what to look for in a piece, what makes a good composition, etc. Some people see these things instinctively and others need to be tought to see them. And even people with an instinctive vision need training in seeing and creating, this is why artists even go to school, instead of secluding themselves with their childhood crayons and scribbling away their lives.

Why do you feel the need to make other people see things that are important to you?


I am also not someone who thinks that anything an artist say is art is art. I think the goal of art is to find beauty and truth in the world, to somehow capture it, and then to show that beauty and truth to people who otherwise might miss it. It is sharing their unique vision of the world, the lens through which they see reality.
What is beauty?


As to why art is important: I think that it is a form of transcendence. Life is dirty and ugly and foul. You scrounge for a living your entire life, but eventually die. Everything when looked at in scale, is phenominally unimportant. Art brings the viewer above that, out of the realm of desire, out of wanting and needing and striving. It creates moments of silence, of stillness, of timelessness. Art will never be what makes survival possible, but it will always be what makes survival desireable. [/B]
Are you sure it doesn't cause desire and the likes?

[surf boy]

That's it, take him down a peg.

[fayefaye]

Isn't piquant female?
As for art, I think art is anything that can subtly convey emotion. make you feel. happy, sad, whatever. Anything that can mess with your head or your heart. Course, I suppose it depends HOW it does that. Shock pictures can make you feel something [horrified, etc. In the case of sloegin, hungry? :)], but are not art. (in my opinion)

[serpico]

On a forum everyone is pansexual.

[fayefaye]

whatever. I want to retract my earlier statement as 'shock pictures' as non-art. I hate them, but I think they do classify as art, because they have the ability to question our society's conditioning of us, as to what is digusting/decent, etc. So, my defn of art=anything that can convey emotion, make you feel.

[zerotule]

go to this site::::: http://poetry.com/

look to top of page click where it says:::and click

POETRY IN MOTION CONTEST
$100 Winner Every Day

when the next page comes up click the big black dot.
give the lil window that pops up time to load the words
then pick one word at a time by clicking and holding, dragging the word you choose into the clear space use 20 words, play everyday using the words they give you to use, it is a learning experiance for all..
have fun..
here is web address for big black dot to click on:::

http://poetry.com/Poetry_IN_Motion/MagCon.asp#

zerotule

POETRY IN MOTION CONTEST POETRY IN MOTION CONTEST $100 Winner Every Day zerotule http://poetry.com/Poetry_IN_Motion/MagCon.asp# http://poetry.com/zerotule http://poetry.com/ http://poetry.com/Poetry_IN_Motion/MagCon.asp#[/

[zerotule]

here you get a free website signup and read,write, store and publish.........
your wordsongs


http://poetrypoem.com/



have fun


zerotule

[azmuse]

poetry.com is earth's blackest hole

[fayefaye]

See, I KNOW my poetry's too crappy to ever get published-which saves me from a lot of stupid scams I'm too cynical to go for anyway.

[azmuse]

Oh, Pish!

[piquant]

I won't even have the "blocks of color" argument. Just because no one would win.

I never claimed to be someone who has a vision to share. I personally feel that people who have inspiration and can see things other people don't should share it because I have benefited so much from other people's insight that I imagine life in a vacuum would be terribly empty. Isn't art just shouting out into the void, "I am here; this is how I feel. Can you feel it too?"

I think of beauty as anything that helps an individual transcend baseness. Anything that elevates is beauty.

The idea of the non-desire thing was totally stolen from Joyce, and I still agree with him. Art is a state of mind. It's why statues are nude, not naked.

Sloegin, what is your definition of art/beauty? What is it's purpose? (come on, don't I get a chance to rip apart your theories? ;) )

Surf boy, sorry if I come accros as self-righteous or pompous. I just have a tendency to write very formally...damn my lack of internet skills. (Actually, I'm just making up for my inferiority in real life.)

[sloegin]

Originally posted by piquant
I never claimed to be someone who has a vision to share. I personally feel that people who have inspiration and can see things other people don't should share it because I have benefited so much from other people's insight that I imagine life in a vacuum would be terribly empty. Isn't art just shouting out into the void, "I am here; this is how I feel. Can you feel it too?"
You can only guess what the artist was feeling. Then you guess what you feel, because you are the void...


I think of beauty as anything that helps an individual transcend baseness. Anything that elevates is beauty.
Baseness is defined by fear or a lack of understanding.


Sloegin, what is your definition of art/beauty? What is it's purpose? (come on, don't I get a chance to rip apart your theories? ;) )
Art is, creation on display. What's it for: to exist.
Beauty-Something that refutes,exalts, or confirms one's ideals of reality.
(Good luck.)

[Basil]

sloegin=coward

[sloegin]

Where do you get that?
Where in GA, are you?

[piquant]

Yes, I am the void, and by the laws of nature I seek filling.

I agree with you on baseness. Beauty is what helps us step out of our fear and lack of understanding.

I don't think I understand what you mean when you say art's purpose is to exist. Could you clarify?

By your definition of beauty, it will be something different for everyone. Do you believe in a universal beauty?

What about art that does deal in reality or beliefs or ideals? Can it be beautiful?

(If I fail it is only because you are deliberately vague.)

[sloegin]

I'm glad you have sense of humor about this.

Blaming nature, is a cop-out.

Desire takes one out of baseness, not beauty.

To exist, to be perceived.

People come together...and, shake that *ss you sexy thing, a universal beauty is born.

Aren't reality, beliefs, and ideals, acts of creation?

(Yeah, that's right blame me, it's all my fault. This is no where near vague.)

[sloegin]

Wait, did you mean 'universal beauty', as in one thing to define everything?

[piquant]

Sorry, I forgot my "n't".

The question is-- What about art that doesn't deal in reality or beliefs or ideals? Can it be beautiful?

When I say universal beauty, I mean a definition of beauty that is true for all people of all past past, present, and possible times. I mean a Platonian Form of beauty.

[azmuse]

even ugly art, if it is True art, is beautiful. the sublime something that touches one's senses isn't necessarily dependent on our present ideals of beauty - it can mold them and rework them until we are left stunned, newly wrought, transformed. it's not art itself that is ugly/beautiful, it's what it leaves us with after we've gone on. its ability to touch us to the core.

[piquant]

! round of applause !

Yes Azmuse, that's what I mean by universal beauty. And I like your definition of it--it isn't nit-picky or obscure or and incoherent attempt at sounding cunning.

My art history prof was saying that beauty was based on the ideals of a certain time period, but I disagree with her, and agree with you. I don't think beauty is something that changes over time or with taste. Beauty is beauty. And beauty is art.

[A poem test]

To be a poet
You must pass the given test
Think hard, do your best
The test you may not know it
But my name is a poem test

[star blue]

and don't touch my groinage
unless you've got some coinage.

[fayefaye]

Originally posted by azmuse
even ugly art, if it is True art, is beautiful. the sublime something that touches one's senses isn't necessarily dependent on our present ideals of beauty - it can mold them and rework them until we are left stunned, newly wrought, transformed. it's not art itself that is ugly/beautiful, it's what it leaves us with after we've gone on. its ability to touch us to the core.

yay! an answer! I think that something can be beautiful, and not be art, if it can't move us somehow. Something that is merely beautiful, but can't alter how you feel, is useless, in my opinion. I spent a day in an art gallery, stepped outisde, and realised I prefer the street performers anyway. Galleries can be so sterile.