American National Author

[cuppajoe_9]

In response to the great controversy surrounding who, exactly, gets to be the national writer for the United States in my other thread (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19833), (and in honour of my seven-hundredth post) we're going to have a vote on the topic. The vote, if nobody minds, will be restricted to Americans (by which I mean, people who think I spelled 'honour' wrong). The candidates, in the interest of fairness, will be aranged according to an alternative alphabetical order (t h e q u i c k b r o w n f x j m p s v l a z y d g). Polls will be closed in two weeks' time. Let the most culturally influential man win!

[aeroport]

Still no James? Is this some kind of joke?

[cuppajoe_9]

Still no James? Is this some kind of joke?

One vote registered for James. I can only put 10 options in a poll.

[genoveva]

Let the most culturally influential man win!

Only men? Hmm..

You should also think about distinguishing poets aside from "authors" in general.

[cuppajoe_9]

Only men? Hmm..

You should also think about distinguishing poets aside from "authors" in general.

Nope, sorry.

And yeah, it is only men. The US has a patriarchal history, as do most of the countries on my list. Canada, even though I have Laurence as our author, is not exempt.

[grace86]

Think I could read all the authors here in two weeks?! Too bad, it would be tweaked if I voted because I have only read about four of these authors. Wouldn't be fair...where's ShoutGrace, he's taking American Lit! :D

[Whifflingpin]

"it would be tweaked if I voted because I have only read about four of these authors. "

But that's the point, surely - "most read" would be a better criterion than "most respected by students of literature."

But, I'm surprised not to see H.W. Longfellow on the list, or E.A. Poe.

Henry James does not belong, because he seems to have spent his time trying, and failing, to become an Englishman. :D
.

[Virgil]

Still no James? Is this some kind of joke?

I think Henry James belongs. He may have lived in England a good deal, but I can't think of any of his novels that an American is not the central character. He was trying to understand the American character in all of his novels.

I would not have put Steinbeck and Salinger on that list. I have never had a Steinbeck work assigned to me in any of my undergrad or grad classes. Nor do I know of any writer who claims to have him as his primary influence. Only time I was assigned something (The Pearl, a nice work BTW) was in high school. Same thing with Salinger. I guess one could argue about Steinbeck (he did recieve the Nobel Prize, if that means anything to people) but Salinger is definitely a minor writer.

As to female writers, I guess one could have included Emily Dickenson. And perhaps she should have been. But the only other female I can think of off the top of my head is Toni Morrison, but she's way too recent. Still alive and writing, actually.

[Whifflingpin]

I'll concede you Henry James - I was just being perverse.

"As to female writers, I guess one could have included Emily Dickenson. And perhaps she should have been. But the only other female I can think of off the top of my head is Toni Morrison, but she's way too recent. Still alive and writing, actually."

Cecelia Holland, Ursula thingy, Joyce Carol Oates. All still writing, I think. Maybe only the last a possible contender, but all of them beat the pants off Emily Dickinson. Even Laura Ingalls Wilder does that (and, come to think of it, her writing is essentially American, and an embodiment of a good kind of Americanism.)

[Virgil]

Cecelia Holland, Ursula thingy, Joyce Carol Oates. All still writing, I think. Maybe only the last a possible contender, but all of them beat the pants off Emily Dickinson. Even Laura Ingalls Wilder does that (and, come to think of it, her writing is essentially American, and an embodiment of a good kind of Americanism.)

Of those you mention, only one I recognize is Joyce Carol Oats. I don't know the others.

[PeterL]

Of the authors listed I think that Twain most closely approaches being the mos influential author in the development of American writing. Hawthorne, Poe, and even Cooper made significant contributions, and Poe was very noteworthy as a writer and in the development of the short story.
I can see reasons for most of the other who are on the ballot, I can't think of a reason why Whitman is on the list.

[Virgil]

I can see reasons for most of the other who are on the ballot, I can't think of a reason why Whitman is on the list.

Why not? He is the first great American poet, and he formulated a language and style that is clearly American rather than British and his themes are clearly rooted in American ideals. If anything is clearly American in nature, and has had a huge influence on all major American poets and even most fiction writers, it is Walt Whitman. He is the Dante of America. Frankly now that I think of it, I should have voted for him. Here is the openning part of "Song of Myself". Nobody wrote poetry (free verse and free line structure) like this before, and lots of Americans have emulated since.


1

I celebrate myself, and sing myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.

I loafe and invite my soul,
I lean and loafe at my ease observing a spear of summer grass.

My tongue, every atom of my blood, form'd from this soil, this air,
Born here of parents born here from parents the same, and their
parents the same,
I, now thirty-seven years old in perfect health begin,
Hoping to cease not till death.

Creeds and schools in abeyance,
Retiring back a while sufficed at what they are, but never forgotten,
I harbor for good or bad, I permit to speak at every hazard,
Nature without check with original energy.

[Marceki111]

I prefer unabridged audiobooks. Not surprisingly, most audios I have on my iTunes are unabridged. I also prefer Retail Editions to Collector's or Trade Editions. I also prefer audiobooks in CD format (you won't see me listening to a cassette audiobook from now on.) *Laughs*.
Not surprisingly, yesterday I purchased the unabridged retail CD edition of "The Art of Detection" by Laurie R. King narrated by Alyssa Bresnahan and Robert Ian McKenzie. Thank you.

[Marceki111]

Nope, sorry.

And yeah, it is only men. The US has a patriarchal history, as do most of the countries on my list. Canada, even though I have Laurence as our author, is not exempt.

Unabridged CD Retail Editions RULE!!!

[PeterL]

Why not? He is the first great American poet, and he formulated a language and style that is clearly American rather than British and his themes are clearly rooted in American ideals. If anything is clearly American in nature, and has had a huge influence on all major American poets and even most fiction writers, it is Walt Whitman. He is the Dante of America. Frankly now that I think of it, I should have voted for him. Here is the openning part of "Song of Myself". Nobody wrote poetry (free verse and free line structure) like this before, and lots of Americans have emulated since.

Emily Dickinson was vastly better. "The Dante of America"!!??? I don't think so. I will admit that "Nobody wrote poetry (free verse and free line structure) like this before," but he wrote it badly. I don't think that anyone has emulated him, except in so far as thinking "Hmm, that's horrible, even I could do better."

The most clearly American thing about Whitman's poetry was his self-promotion.

[ShoutGrace]

The most clearly American thing about Whitman's poetry was his self-promotion.

I'm here going to repost what I posted in the "National Author's" thread.


I think he (Whitman) absolutely should be (considered the quintessential American poet), though there is always strong anti-Whitman sentiment from all sides. “Leaves of Grass” was written (and of course rewritten) during the beginnings of what we now know as America; it is the archetypal vision of America. As it is written:

“In another hundred years we may be able to acknowledge ‘Leaves of Grass’ as America’s epic, written in the dawn of her history when her people were vigorous and naïve, and their faith fresh and bold.”

"Leaves of Grass", every separate edition, is a clear reflection of what America is, and what it means to be an American. It is a portrait of early America, which, as alluded to above, contained at least the ideals that it stands for.


If anything is clearly American in nature, and has had a huge influence on all major American poets and even most fiction writers, it is Walt Whitman.

I agree wholeheartedly. :nod:

Joyce Carol Oates contending as the literary representative of America? Are we kidding? It's all in jest, correct?

[Whifflingpin]

"[Whitman 1809-1892] is the first great American poet, and he formulated a language and style that is clearly American rather than British and his themes are clearly rooted in American ideals."

Hmm - Poe (1809-1849) had lived and died before Whitman had published anything.
Longfellow (1807-1882) had been producing poetry for over a decade before Whitman's 'Leaves of Grass.'

So I'd challenge the statement that Whitman was America's first great poet.

However - compare 'Leaves of Grass' with 'Hiawatha,' both published in 1855, and it becomes clear that Whitman radically changed the approach to poetry.

However again - it could (I think 'should') be argued that Longfellow did more to shape Americans' view of themselves than Whitman. Within their lifetimes, I think, Longfellow would have been regarded as the national poet.

But, why am I, an Englishman, involved in this discussion?

And how, Virgil, can you not know Laura Ingalls Wilder?
"Laura Elizabeth Ingalls was born February 7, 1867, in a little log house in the Big Woods of Wisconsin. Laura's childhood was spent traveling west by covered wagon, to Indian Territory in Kansas, to Grasshopper Country in Minnesota, and then to Dakota Territory, where she met and married Almanzo Wilder.
...in the 1930s and 40s, Laura recorded her memories of those days of long ago in a children's series known as the "Little House"® books.

Although Laura died on February 10, 1957, at her home in the Ozarks of Missouri, she and her family will live forever in the hearts of her readers."
http://webpages.marshall.edu/~irby1/laura/frames.html

To read her books is to acknowledge her right to be the national author of America!!

[PeterL]

Opinions vary. I don't see any value in "The Leaves of Grass" or any other of Whitman's poetry. It most certainly is not "a clear reflection of what America is, and what it means to be an American." Nor is it "a portrait of early America." I will admit that it was one man's view of what America was, but I think that a clearer view of America can be found In Twain's Life on the Mississippi or any of several other of his books.

[Virgil]

Ooops. Double posted..

[Virgil]

Poe (1809-1849) had lived and died before Whitman had published anything.

Yeah, but is that the criteria. Chaucer lived and died before Shakespeare and one could make a very good case that Chaucer is England's national poet. As to Poe, he's rather superficial. And short stories don't have the stature or an epic poem like Leaves of Grass.


Longfellow (1807-1882) had been producing poetry for over a decade before Whitman's 'Leaves of Grass.'...
However again - it could (I think 'should') be argued that Longfellow did more to shape Americans' view of themselves than Whitman. Within their lifetimes, I think, Longfellow would have been regarded as the national poet.
Good point. Longfellow was definitely very popular in his day, but he has not aged well. His language is sort of stilted. No major American poet in the 20th century that I know adds Longfellow to their list of mentors.


So I'd challenge the statement that Whitman was America's first great poet.
Well, Longfellow may have been the first, but he has not lasted, I'm afraid.

However - compare 'Leaves of Grass' with 'Hiawatha,' both published in 1855, and it becomes clear that Whitman radically changed the approach to poetry.
Yes, and Longefellow voice is an artificial "British-y" voice, while Whitman is clearly American.


And how, Virgil, can you not know Laura Ingalls Wilder?...Thanks, and interesting, but I can't imagine her competing here.

Oh, I did think of a fine female American writer, Willa Cather. She could tenuously make the list.

[Virgil]

Opinions vary. I don't see any value in "The Leaves of Grass" or any other of Whitman's poetry.
Well, Ezra pound, T.S. Eliot, Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams, Allen Ginsberg, Langston Hughes, Carl Sandberg, Robert Frost, (need I go on) would disgree with you. I don't know how old you are, but obviously you haven't studied American literature.

but I think that a clearer view of America can be found In Twain's Life on the Mississippi or any of several other of his books
I agree that Mark Twain is a heavy favorite. You can make a very strong case for him.

[Whifflingpin]

"Longfellow was definitely very popular in his day, but he has not aged well. His language is sort of stilted. No major American poet in the 20th century that I know adds Longfellow to their list of mentors."

I did think of saying that Whitman is a poets' poet. Certainly he has influenced 20th century poets. But, given that Longfellow did more in the 19th century to shape an idea of America which endures to this day, I think he has a good claim to being a national writer. Depends on which criterion you want to use - influence on American writers or influence on Americans.

When you say that Longfellow has not lasted you remind me that I am a dinosaur. My sig is a misquotation from "Dutch Picture," and I, at least, enjoy "The Village Blacksmith" as much as I love "When lilacs last in the churchyard bloomed" etc. I am as likely to be heard singing "Excelsior" as "Oh Captain, my Captain." (The latter shows, perhaps, that Whitman did not escape his English roots entirely, since bits of it seem lifted straight from Wordsorth's "Lucy" poems.)

Anyway, Longfellow is not on the list, and I have no vote, so I concede and creep back to my rocking chair by the fire.

.

[Whifflingpin]

"And how, Virgil, can you not know Laura Ingalls Wilder?... "
"Thanks, and interesting, but I can't imagine her competing here."

Well - she "walked the walk," whatever that means, and her life and writings embody the indomitable frontier spirit which is central to the American idea. It may be, indeed, the only part of the American idea that stops America from being a cobbled together pastiche of European civilisation. She may not appear much in American literature courses, but I bet she's highly regarded by more Americans than most of those on the list. (OK, I recognise that for Americanness and popularity the inventor of Superman would far outweigh the author of 'Leaves of Grass,' so I'll shut up and get back to the rocking chair - talking of which, how about Norman Rockwell as America's national painter? OK, OK, I'm going!)

[ShoutGrace]

Opinions vary. I don't see any value in "The Leaves of Grass" or any other of Whitman's poetry. It most certainly is not "a clear reflection of what America is, and what it means to be an American." Nor is it "a portrait of early America." I will admit that it was one man's view of what America was, but I think that a clearer view of America can be found In Twain's Life on the Mississippi or any of several other of his books.

I guess it is opinion. Perhaps both Twain and Whitman saw their America the way they did and each one is just as valid? I guess to discern we would need to have the correct view of America and what it was during that time, and such a thing doesn't exist.


Alone far in the wilds and mountains I hunt,
Wandering amazed at my own lightness and glee,
In the late afternoon choosing a safe spot to pass the night,
Kindling a fire and broiling the fresh-kill'd game,
Falling asleep on the gather'd leaves with my dog and gun by my side.

The Yankee clipper is under her sky-sails, she cuts the sparkle and scud,
My eyes settle the land, I bend at her prow or shout joyously from the deck.

The boatmen and clam-diggers arose early and stopt for me,
I tuck'd my trowser-ends in my boots and went and had a good time;
You should have been with us that day round the chowder-kettle.

I saw the marriage of the trapper in the open air in the far west,
the bride was a red girl,
Her father and his friends sat near cross-legged and dumbly smoking,
they had moccasins to their feet and large thick blankets
hanging from their shoulders,
On a bank lounged the trapper, he was drest mostly in skins, his luxuriant
beard and curls protected his neck, he held his bride by the hand,
She had long eyelashes, her head was bare, her coarse straight locks
descended upon her voluptuous limbs and reach'd to her feet.

The runaway slave came to my house and stopt outside,
I heard his motions crackling the twigs of the woodpile,
Through the swung half-door of the kitchen I saw him limpsy and weak,
And went where he sat on a log and led him in and assured him,
And brought water and fill'd a tub for his sweated body and bruis'd feet,
And gave him a room that enter'd from my own, and gave him some
coarse clean clothes,
And remember perfectly well his revolving eyes and his awkwardness,
And remember putting plasters on the galls of his neck and ankles;
He staid with me a week before he was recuperated and pass'd north,
I had him sit next me at table, my fire-lock lean'd in the corner.


I am as likely to be heard singing "Excelsior" as "Oh Captain, my Captain." (The latter shows, perhaps, that Whitman did not escape his English roots entirely, since bits of it seem lifted straight from Wordsorth's "Lucy" poems.)

"Oh Captain, My Captain" is one of Whitman's most popular and worst poems, in my opinion. It's sad that that poem gets anthologized so much, when I can't see much going for it in light of Whitman's other works.

I think it's fair that you vote, Whifflingpin (as long as you vote for either Whitman or Faulkner :D). What matters is knowledge of American literature (an area I am damnably deficient in), rather than ancestry or location.

[cuppajoe_9]

Sorry folks, it's not a complete list. It's basically all the nominees from the National Authors thread, plus a few that I added as representative of certain defining time periods for the US (Crane for the Civil War, Fitzgerald for the 20s, Steinbeck for the depression and Sallinger for the 50s). One could easily make the case that Dickenson should be up there instead of Salinger, but, unfortuantely for her, I like J.D. Salinger. Much as I would like to have 30 authors up there, I'm capped at 10.

[cuppajoe_9]

Last call, poll closes tomorrow at 7.00 pm.

[ShoutGrace]

Looks like Twain then . . .

[Pendragon]

Sorry I missed the voting, I really need to visit this section more often, but the author I would have voted for won anyway. Twain is, in my opinion, the outstanding American Author to date. People complain of racism in his books, but they should read The Adventures of Huckelberry Finn a darn sight closer! It shows the friendship between people of different races when slavery was an accursed fact, and how far Huck, a white kid would go to free his black friend Jim. The language used is the language of the day, and I've seen worse from people accurately recording street gang language. Read Twain's letter's and you will find blistering letters to the editor over lynching of black men later proven innocent of any wrong doing. Read his The War Prayer, published after his death, and see a view of how he felt about war. Twain gets my vote every time. He could tell it like it was, with sardonic humor, but woe to people who were in the wrong!

[cuppajoe_9]

I agree, Twain was, if anything, an anti-racist.

[Virgil]

As one who did not vote for Twain, let me say he is a proper choice.

[genoveva]

Read his The War Prayer, published after his death, and see a view of how he felt about war.

Interestingly enough, he insisted that The War Prayer only be publish after he was dead!

[jon1jt]

Twain, Hawthorne, Fitzgerald, Melville, Crane, Steinbeck, Crane: Yawn.

Emerson----Thoreau----Whitman----Henry Miller----Jack Kerouac...The beginning and end of the greatest American literature. :)

[Pendragon]

Interestingly enough, he insisted that The War Prayer only be publish after he was dead!Ah, someone whom at least knew what I was talking about! Yes, he did insist it be published posthumously. He stated that he knew people would flare up about the content of this poem? short short story?, and did not feel like dealing with it. But it will make one who prays to God think carefully about what one is actually asking. I call it a masterpiece, myself. I keep a copy on hand, and have used it for demonstration purpose while preaching. Amazing how people do not like to swallow their medicine when one makes them think about consequences! :)