The idea of mental illness being caused by biological illness is wrong

[Jtolj]

It's ridiculous because people are the way they are, or people feel certain ways, (not counting hallucinations, but hallucinations alone are not called mental illness and crazy reactions people may have to them are genuine because they feel it is real) etc.

Basically, I think that since they haven't defintive proof that mental illness is caused by a physical ill (and they haven't, the tests were debunked), then that must mean that it probably is just people's life.

The idea of it being biological is destroying a lot of our society, and it must be exposed. We have souls, and considering human facets physical flaws is radical athiesm (there is nothing wrong moderate athiesm, although I greatly am not in its standings) that has penetrated our sciences.

Rise up and stop with this evil.

[Logos]

Basically, I think that since they haven't defintive proof that mental illness is caused by a physical ill (and they haven't, the tests were debunked)
Which tests are you referring to?

[RobinHood3000]

On the one hand, I wonder how humans got along emotionally before conditions caused by "mental chemical imbalance" were discovered. On the other, I've seen the effects of mental/emotional conditions on people very close to me. Are they social? Evolutionary? Natural from the beginning of time?

And of course, the question: would we rather know or not know about them?

[Jtolj]

Which tests are you referring to?

Those studies they did, where they tested people and said look, they're brain is different.

[Jtolj]

On the one hand, I wonder how humans got along emotionally before conditions caused by "mental chemical imbalance" were discovered. On the other, I've seen the effects of mental/emotional conditions on people very close to me. Are they social? Evolutionary? Natural from the beginning of time?

And of course, the question: would we rather know or not know about them?Of course we wouldn't want to know, but here is the thing.

Even if someone's state is strong, cannot that be a natural human state.

Here's what I think of so-called "depression":
Most people get very depressed all the time, but usually they are concerned about death, and it rarely ever considered sick to be afraid of death, because it's considered natural. But when people are depressed from stuff that isn't about death, and in fact is about life, then they want to die, and then that's when that get all on it.

[cuppajoe_9]

The idea of it being biological is destroying a lot of our society, and it must be exposed. We have souls, and considering human facets physical flaws is radical athiesm (there is nothing wrong moderate athiesm, although I greatly am not in its standings) that has penetrated our sciences.

Rise up and stop with this evil.

Am I geting called evil more often than usual lately, or is it just me?

First off, I completely agree that disorders such as clinical depression are overdiagnosed and that anti-depressants can have horrible side effects and the stigma that goes along can destroy lives. However: being constantly paranoid, hearing voices in one's head, anhedonia and long-term depression are not just 'part of life', friend, they are debilitating conditions, and they need treatment.


Those studies they did, where they tested people and said look, they're brain is different.Give us a link, give us a reference, give us anything but your word for it.
Most people get very depressed all the time, but usually they are concerned about death, and it rarely ever considered sick to be afraid of death, because it's considered natural. But when people are depressed from stuff that isn't about death, and in fact is about life, then they want to die, and then that's when that get all on it.Clinical depression is usually unfocused with no readily apparent cause.
On the one hand, I wonder how humans got along emotionally before conditions caused by "mental chemical imbalance" were discovered.Not very well. A schizophrenic would have simply been burned as a witch before about 1500, and it was only around about 1900 that the treatment for most mental disorders advanced beyond torturing the patient to death.

[kathycf]

Of course we wouldn't want to know, but here is the thing.

Even if someone's state is strong, cannot that be a natural human state.

Here's what I think of so-called "depression":
Most people get very depressed all the time, but usually they are concerned about death, and it rarely ever considered sick to be afraid of death, because it's considered natural. But when people are depressed from stuff that isn't about death, and in fact is about life, then they want to die, and then that's when that get all on it.


Hi Jtolj, welcome to the forums.

I am sorry (not trying to be rude here) but just what the heck does "that's when that get all on it" mean? Also could you clarify what you mean by "so-called depression" please? I am a person who has depression and it is very real and I am not very receptive to comments like "so-called" as if what I am experiencing is NOT REAL.

I think it is important that you have respect for other people's experiences. I am not going into detail about what my life has been like, but after dealing with 17 years of torture and different types of abuse, well...let me put it this way... I have an inkling about what mental anguish is.

I am not trying to come down hard on you, but this is a subject that just makes my blood boil. If you think mental illness is a load of hogwash, then of course you are entitled to that belief. However, please try to understand and have empathy (and RESPECT) for folks whose feelings and experiences do not match yours.


Those studies they did, where they tested people and said look, they're brain is different.

Uh, you are going to need to do better than vaguely say "those studies". It is all well and good to state your opinion (as you have) but "those studies" is simply much to vague. WHICH studies are you referring to--conducted by whom--what are the credentials of the people involved in the study--ect ect...The search engine Google would be a good start to help you find out this information.


Again, not trying to be mean to you or be rude. It is just a bit hard for me to read something like what you posted without getting very upset and annoyed.

~Kathy

[RobinHood3000]

Jtolj, before you continue, there are a few things you should know.

1) There are very much-beloved forumers here, Kathy here being one and Pendragon being another, who suffer from the conditions in question.

2) They have feelings.

While I agree with cuppajoe that some scientists are getting overly enthusiastic in attempting to discover, diagnose, and treat many of these diseases, and while I'm still unsure as to whether their cause is social or genuinely biological, their existence and their effects are real and occasionally extreme enough to merit attention.

[miss tenderness]

Is the mental illness caused by biological reasons?????

Yes, it can be, JT .I know families which 2 or 3 members of them (if not all) have mental illnesses due to some biological reasons (or more accurately, heredity). Actually, reasons vary, we just can't stand up an say hey, and biological causes are not real. Eventually, it's up to scientists and the last discoveries in this field, I admit, I just gave my p.o.v without any scientific base.



I think it is important that you have respect for other people's experiences. I am not going into detail about what my life has been like, but after dealing with 17 years of torture and different types of abuse, well...let me put it this way... I have an inkling about what mental anguish is.

I am not trying to come down hard on you, but this is a subject that just makes my blood boil. If you think mental illness is a load of hogwash, then of course you are entitled to that belief. However, please try to understand and have empathy (and RESPECT) for folks whose feelings and experiences do not match yours.


I don't think that JT meant to decrease from the importance and reality of Depresssion, I mean who can do so?I think his words failed him! We have real dear people who suffer this illness(my bro)is one. So it's kinda an uningnorable illness.plus,it's one of the most widely spread illnesses. Will you,JT, plz clarify your point of view?? For Kathy is just dear to me and I was really annoyed.,I'm taking her side till things (mainly ur point of view) is more obvious. Hope we misunderstood you!

[Jtolj]

I was trying to say its causes were only social, and clearly, Kathy, who responded to me, feels that way, by her mentioning.

Look, people feeling sad is a real thing but people feeling that way from brain disorder as the sole cause is not.

The thing about the tests, is that it is others, who have not shown it is true. http://psychcentral.com/library/schizo_causes.htm

The truth is that they cannot find abnormalities and perfectly brainly fine people get the disease.

[Jtolj]

Is the mental illness caused by biological reasons?????

Yes, it can be, JT .I know families which 2 or 3 members of them (if not all) have mental illnesses due to some biological reasons (or more accurately, heredity). Actually, reasons vary, we just can't stand up an say hey, and biological causes are not real. Eventually, it's up to scientists and the last discoveries in this field, I admit, I just gave my p.o.v without any scientific base.




I don't think that JT meant to decrease from the importance and reality of Depresssion, I mean who can do so?I think his words failed him! We have real dear people who suffer this illness(my bro)is one. So it's kinda an uningnorable illness.plus,it's one of the most widely spread illnesses. Will you,JT, plz clarify your point of view?? For Kathy is just dear to me and I was really annoyed.,I'm taking her side till things (mainly ur point of view) is more obvious. Hope we misunderstood you!
What biological reasons? Tell of the family. Of depression and all mental illness, I just wish to say, it's pretty obvious that it is social and most people get depressed constantly but it's about death, so it is doesn't get last as long and attract attention.

[kathycf]

Ok, deep breath. Again, I am not trying to be mean to you Jtolj....



I was trying to say its causes were only social, and clearly, Kathy, who responded to me, feels that way, by her mentioning.



Well, actually....I think it is very difficult to seperate biology and external influences in determining the root cause of many mental illnesses. Let us not forget that the brain is an organ and that humans are biological organisms. Our minds are not some seperate place unaffected by our body...our mind is part of our body and subject to the same biological influences as any other organ in the human body. Would you say that heart disease and diabetes are not real physical illnesses? Yet they also have roots in external causes. A website such as WebMD (http://www.webmd.com/) would give more information about that. (Smoking and one's diet come to mind as some influences on different types of diseases. )

Depression may or may not have roots in brain functioning, as a side note many antidepressants target serotonin levels in the brain. Also, depression is much much more than simply feeling "sad". At times it is impossible for me to leave the house, to eat and to sleep. These are symptoms shared by many with major depression--losses in ability to function. It just annoys me that there are people who don't understand that. I am not a weak person, anyone who thinks that a person is weak or lazy because they cannot function all the time is just plain wrong.


Of depression and all mental illness, I just wish to say, it's pretty obvious that it is social and most people get depressed constantly but it's about death, so it is doesn't get last as long and attract attention.

Um...NO. Sorry. Uh, "obvious" ????

I think that what is obvious (to me at least) is that A.) You have an opinion and B.) are making broad sweeping statements about things and people you don't even know and C.) you are trying to present your opinion as FACT.

Please do not try to tell me what I am depressed about. It is not death, and sorry but that is incredibly insulting (and presumptious) on your part. You are not qualified to speak for me about what goes on in MY mind. Don't take it personally...I would be hard pressed to find ANY individual who could do so. That is why I prefer to actually respect other people's feelings as I feel that each person is best qualified to judge how they themselves feel.

Pendragon has stated that he suffers from bipolar disorder (which used to be know as manic depression) and I will formally state that I suffer from major depression, panic disorder and post traumatic stress disorder.

Perhaps it would benefit you to actually learn that all mental illnesses are NOT the same, and not every mental illness is depression. Education goes a LONG way to understanding. *edit* I posted some links below...

[mir]

i agree with Kathy. there's no way to lump people into one big category and call them just "schizophrenic" or "insane". my dad is a psychiatrist and i've taken several classes on psychology, and i think there is no way to understand mental illness unless you have it. it's not rational, and it's not something you can just break free of from sheer willpower. i'm struggling with anorexia, and both my parents are doctors, so you'd certainly think i'd know better and be able to just up and get better when the only person stopping myself is me, but it's not that easy.

i think some mental illnesses may result from chemical imbalances in the brain - like depression, for instance - but i also think there's more to it than that. you can't refer to a person as a condition, and you can't define everybody's condition by the same name.

[kathycf]

Ok I wanted to add some links.

NAMI (http://www.nami.org/)

American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org/)

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter2/sec2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_illness


In case you were curious about me, (or even if you are not ;) ) I am a college student with a dual major in Sociology and Psychology and I also do volunteer work for the Massachusetts Department of Social Services. There are things that I do not agree with in my studies, but there is much to be learned (I think) from them. I have seen alot in my own life and also have seen too much in my volunteer work to not have empathy for others.

I am happy to respect people's viewpoints and opinions even if I do not agree with them...what angers me is folks who feel a certain way and try to present their opinion as a set in stone fact. I am sure you are a nice person Jtolj, please don't feel as if I hate you. I don't hate anybody.

[Pendragon]

Here's what I think of so-called "depression":
Most people get very depressed all the time, but usually they are concerned about death, and it rarely ever considered sick to be afraid of death, because it's considered natural. But when people are depressed from stuff that isn't about death, and in fact is about life, then they want to die, and then that's when that get all on it.Mon ami, I would very much like to tell you something which you obviously do not know and cannot understand. I have lived almost all my life with your "so-called" Depression. It has finally diagnosed as Bi-Polar II with complications I won't go into, because I get enough trash talk as it is. But I can tell you this. If you think it is just feeling "sad" or being "down on it", then allow me to tell you something. What I face every day of my life there has never been anyone who has wronged me bad enough for me to wish this horror upon them. And I don't think anyone could ever hurt me bad enough for me to want them cursed with my illness. If you think it is not all that bad, live in my shoes for a day. I must take 12 pills a day. I miss one dose, and it shows. They have to change my medicine two to three times a year, as my body gets used to it, and it no longer works. Be thankful that you don't have the disease you deny exists, and pray like everything you never see the inside of a mental hospital. I've been there five times. It is not pretty nor pleasant.

[kilted exile]

Ok, my knowledge of mental illness is limited to a family friend (), one very basic college course in Abnormal Psychology, discussions with a social worker specializing in Mental Health Work and Counselling (one of the parents) and 6 months of personal hell when I was younger (which is unimportant and shall not be discussed).

During certain outbreaks, the friend spends time in a mental hospital, curiously these outbreaks seem to occur when she stops taking her lithium:eek2: but of course it is not biological so this must merely be a coincidence

Also I think you are definetely confused about depression and severity I suggest you look at the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) - http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html before you offend people further!



The idea of it being biological is destroying a lot of our society, and it must be exposed. We have souls, and considering human facets physical flaws is radical athiesm (there is nothing wrong moderate athiesm, although I greatly am not in its standings) that has penetrated our sciences.


This part seems out of place and must definetely have been meant to be posted in part of a topic in the "Religious Texts Forum"

[miss tenderness]

What biological reasons? Tell of the family. Of depression and all mental illness, I just wish to say, it's pretty obvious that it is social and most people get depressed constantly but it's about death, so it is doesn't get last as long and attract attention.


oh, the q was not for u,I asked an answered. dnt worry about it.

I agree with u on the point above.

[Jtolj]

What did I say that was so offensive? I am not saying any of you feel not the way you do. I am just saying it is not brain organics, because the brain is not just an organ. It represents us, and we don't represent it.

Now, is this of what depression is like:
The feeling that there is not a point because life is not worth living?

Because people feel that all the time, when they think of death.

[Logos]

blah.. I was going to post something different but I can't be bothered because you can't be bothered to back up your opinion that you purport as truth.

[cuppajoe_9]

Now, is this of what depression is like:
The feeling that there is not a point because life is not worth living?

Because people feel that all the time, when they think of death.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression#Symptoms), very roughly, is what depression is like.

[Jtolj]

blah.. I was going to post something different but I can't be bothered because you can't be bothered to back up your opinion that you purport as truth.

http://antipsychiatry.org/exist.htm
http://antipsychiatry.org/depressi.htm

All I want to say right now is just that it is not physical. It is not logical to think that just because a thing is so bad, it couldn't possibly be a natural thing.

[AimusSage]

This all reminds me a bit of certain things Tom Cruise once said, before he started jumping on couches that is. :D

[Idril]

This all reminds me a bit of certain things Tom Cruise once said, before he started jumping on couches that is. :D

Yes it does...and look what it did to his public image. ;)

[Logos]

Ahh yes, Scientology! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry)

[miss tenderness]

This all reminds me a bit of certain things Tom Cruise once said, before he started jumping on couches that is. :D



:D:D is n't he so silly?

[sol77]

http://antipsychiatry.org/exist.htm
http://antipsychiatry.org/depressi.htm

All I want to say right now is just that it is not physical. It is not logical to think that just because a thing is so bad, it couldn't possibly be a natural thing. Had to jump in on this discussion, hi. :)
First of, Jtolj are we talking mental disorders in general or just depression?
Also those texts were quite interesting, thanks for sharing. However, are those texts peer reviewed? I couldn't find them or the author's name in any scientific databases that I tried. A text can still be valid and of great importance, it just doesn't carry the same weight when contending and refuting scientificly established theories.
But anyways. Disease does have a broader definition in the english language than yours so maybe this is all moot.


dis·ease (dĭ-zēz')
n.

1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.
2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.
3. Obsolete. Lack of ease; trouble.

the American Heritage dictionaries

This definition isn't medical though as ailments are categoriced slightly different if I understand things correctly.

According to my experience depression can and often is caused by social conditions. But just like psychosomatic disorders it will have a physical impact and can lead to conditions that according to 1. in above definition de facto is defined as a disease. This doesn't really contend with what you have said, it is just to build up to my point.

I haven't tested this idea yet but I believe that we can be programmed by attitude, lifestyle, experiences etc in such a way that our bodies changes it's chemical balance long-term. E.g less dopamine is produced maybe because an individual is suffering from a depression which could lead to a lack of motivation and a harder time learning. This ailments would be a mental illness caused by social factors and this supports what I percieve to be your point. (I should point out that the role of dopamine hasn't fully been mapped yet but many experiments suggest that it is involved in not only learning but motivation as well.)

However we also have conditions like Alzheimers and Parkinsons etc. Those are just as biological as cancer. So as you see mental illness can be both social and biological in nature. I fetched this publication, that isn't the best for the discussion but it serves it's purpose. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN2-45C0VDT-3M&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2000&_alid=474199311&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6950&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c0adc79ce69f6339a7e69bb4ed759740
I don't present it as proof and I have only read the abstract but it does show the nature of this issue, that both the social and biological play parts in this.

Are you also saying that because an ailment is natural, like wear and tear on the body's organs, it should not be called a disease?

/cheers

ps. You should be aware that it is 3.30 am here in Sweden so if my english is perplexing in any way.. well then you can guess why. :)

[Jtolj]

Everything can be talked about, but depression is probably the most important, because it is the key debate. When it ends, it will affect everything else.

First things are first. Alzheiemrs and other stuff like that are neurological, not mental. Alzheiermers is a clear memory loss. Mental is stuff like depression, where it is not memory and nerve impulses but behavior and feelings. You could be blind and it could be referred to as nuero.

The author of the writings was a lawyer, who has done extensive research. Psychiatrist, Thomas Szaz(or something like that), pioneeeed the idea he supports.

My beleive is that disease is that the only natural illness is physical hurt because it can be measured and seen. While mental illness is just a way people are.

[Jtolj]

Had to jump in on this discussion, hi. :)
First of, Jtolj are we talking mental disorders in general or just depression?
Also those texts were quite interesting, thanks for sharing. However, are those texts peer reviewed? I couldn't find them or the author's name in any scientific databases that I tried. A text can still be valid and of great importance, it just doesn't carry the same weight when contending and refuting scientificly established theories.
But anyways. Disease does have a broader definition in the english language than yours so maybe this is all moot.


dis·ease (dĭ-zēz')
n.

1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.
2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.
3. Obsolete. Lack of ease; trouble.

the American Heritage dictionaries

This definition isn't medical though as ailments are categoriced slightly different if I understand things correctly.

According to my experience depression can and often is caused by social conditions. But just like psychosomatic disorders it will have a physical impact and can lead to conditions that according to 1. in above definition de facto is defined as a disease. This doesn't really contend with what you have said, it is just to build up to my point.

I haven't tested this idea yet but I believe that we can be programmed by attitude, lifestyle, experiences etc in such a way that our bodies changes it's chemical balance long-term. E.g less dopamine is produced maybe because an individual is suffering from a depression which could lead to a lack of motivation and a harder time learning. This ailments would be a mental illness caused by social factors and this supports what I percieve to be your point. (I should point out that the role of dopamine hasn't fully been mapped yet but many experiments suggest that it is involved in not only learning but motivation as well.)

However we also have conditions like Alzheimers and Parkinsons etc. Those are just as biological as cancer. So as you see mental illness can be both social and biological in nature. I fetched this publication, that isn't the best for the discussion but it serves it's purpose. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN2-45C0VDT-3M&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2000&_alid=474199311&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6950&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c0adc79ce69f6339a7e69bb4ed759740
I don't present it as proof and I have only read the abstract but it does show the nature of this issue, that both the social and biological play parts in this.

Are you also saying that because an ailment is natural, like wear and tear on the body's organs, it should not be called a disease?

/cheers

ps. You should be aware that it is 3.30 am here in Sweden so if my english is perplexing in any way.. well then you can guess why. :)

Also, the problem with the thing you presented was that it only focuses on mechanism and not cause and sees mechanism as if it were cause. What causes the mechanism?

[infernal_dream]

:crash: mental illness doesnt have to be exactly from biological illness as you said, i agree. it has to do with the people around you. your parents can screw you over when youre young, the people at school can make you paranoid by what they do and its sometimes the environment and of course, yourself...or being so different in your views, that people tag you as INSANE:crash:

[cuppajoe_9]

Major depressive disorder it is...

First off, what you need to realize is tha disease is a social construct. Yes, viewing depression as a disease is a new thing, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Viewing alcoholism as a disease is also new, but withdrawl symptoms are very very real, and alcoholism runs a bit deeper than a simple lack of willpower as was previously believed.

Second off, clinical depresion does not have a single cause. Bad things do happen to people, and it's normal to be depressed from time to time. In the case of clinical depresion, however, sufferers have been known to have episodes of depression with no readily apparent external cause. This, I think you'll agree, is something that deserves looking into. Dismissing this phenomenon as 'just how people are' does nothing whatsoever to stop the problem. If a person is having these episodes of depression, and it is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain (as is widely believed in the medical community), then that imbalance needs to be fixed, as major episodes of depresion are debilitating at best and lethal at worst.

[kathycf]

Had to jump in on this discussion, hi. :)

I haven't tested this idea yet but I believe that we can be programmed by attitude, lifestyle, experiences etc in such a way that our bodies changes it's chemical balance long-term. E.g less dopamine is produced maybe because an individual is suffering from a depression which could lead to a lack of motivation and a harder time learning. This ailments would be a mental illness caused by social factors and this supports what I percieve to be your point. (I should point out that the role of dopamine hasn't fully been mapped yet but many experiments suggest that it is involved in not only learning but motivation as well.)


Awww, my dear friend Solly has joined the Forum. Yay! :D So, sol welcome to the forum. :) :) :) http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kathycf/smileys/hug.gif

Ok, I think you make an interesting point here, which is something I was trying to convey earlier. I think it is very difficult to seperate strictly biological or strictly enviromental causes for most diseases, never mind mental illness. People who never smoke can and do get lung cancer, but are any of us going to question that smoking greatly increases one's risk? This would be an one example (in my mind anyways) of internal factors (something that may be inherited, or that an individual has a genetic predisposition to) vs external (cigarette smoking) that influence a disease. Of course diseases of the brain are not as understood....medicine is still trying to learn all the ways the brain functions. This also puts me in mind of the whole nature vs nurture debate and the controversy surrounding that.


ps. You should be aware that it is 3.30 am here in Sweden so if my english is perplexing in any way.. well then you can guess why. :)
I will of course do some research on this but it is now almost 2 am my time, and I of course have no excuse if MY English becomes hard to understand as it is my native language. :p ;)

The feeling that there is not a point because life is not worth living? Because people feel that all the time, when they think of death.
Sigh, It seems you are now again deciding how everybody feels. That is what that reads like to me....Maybe you could clarify this statement by saying it is YOUR interpretation of how YOU think other people feel. Unless you have the ability to be able to read the minds and hearts of millions of people. (????)

[sol77]

First things are first. Alzheimers and other stuff like that are neurological, not mental. Alzheiermers is a clear memory loss. Mental is stuff like depression, where it is not memory and nerve impulses but behavior and feelings. You could be blind and it could be referred to as nuero.
Ok, but how are we going to discuss biological causes to mental disorders without discussing neuropsychology? With your definition of this problem the discussion is almost moot.

"Mental is stuff like depression, where it is not memory and nerve impulses but behavior and feelings."You could just as easily say that condition A is biological in nature and therefore not mental...
Alzheimers afflicts the mental aspects of a human being and is therefore called a mental disorder. Yes it's mechanism is neurological but therefore also biological.

But even a thing like depression.. a person can be born with a condition similar to bi-polarity. Was the cause social? I think you would say the cause was likely genetic and/or neurological. I would agree. Is it still a mental disorder? Yes! There is nothing wrong with the person otherwise (if lucky) he/she just has a hard time functioning because of mood swings.


Also, the problem with the thing you presented was that it only focuses on mechanism and not cause and sees mechanism as if it were cause. What causes the mechanism? Well I told you it was late. :P I missed your focus on cause.
The cause of the depression where the chemical balance has been altered long-term was likely social. If we just focus on depression then I think we will both find that the cause is often social. Just like lung cancer. After all it was peer pressure that got that person smoking in the first place. Heh, I admit this reasoning is taking it a bit far, but you see my point right? The initial cause might not be of the nature we would expect. I'm sure that is nothing new to you. Now, maybe a person is born with a genetic predisposition for depression? Maybe he/she doesn't have the mental faculties to cope with setbacks like the majority of people. In this case medical treatment would be just the right thing to help the person function normally. Comment?

I suppose you could call all the disorders that are social in nature conditions as they are a state the person has ended up in, and not a disease. Agreed, but therein lies the answer to this as well. It is a state that the person has ended up in but it is not a natural state and therefore not just the way that person is (paraphrasing). So treatment is needed.

If the cause was genetic then yes, I would say that is the way that person is but treatment is still needed so they can function normally in life. Should this be called a disease? Only according to 2. in the definiton of the word I provided earlier, if you ask me. Truthfully I haven't really made up my mind here. But it is likely called a genetic disease by the experts so it would be 1.

If it was caused by e.g a virus (meaning mental disorders in general now) then the mental disorder would only be a symptom of a disease.

Why this focus on only depressions and similar mental disorders?
It has been pointed out be several people here that no matter the nature of these afflictions they still need to be treated and should not be taken likely, do you agree?

I have finals tomorrow so it might be a while before I can reply. :(


Thanks for the welcome kathy! :brow: ;)

[Pendragon]

Everything can be talked about, but depression is probably the most important, because it is the key debate. When it ends, it will affect everything else.

First things are first. Alzheiemrs and other stuff like that are neurological, not mental. Alzheiermers is a clear memory loss. Mental is stuff like depression, where it is not memory and nerve impulses but behavior and feelings. You could be blind and it could be referred to as nuero.

The author of the writings was a lawyer, who has done extensive research. Psychiatrist, Thomas Szaz(or something like that), pioneeeed the idea he supports.

My beleive is that disease is that the only natural illness is physical hurt because it can be measured and seen. While mental illness is just a way people are.So this all is in my head and just the way I am, according to you and some vague person you are quoting. You do not think it genetic at all. My father's family pretty much all suffered from it, and became alcoholics to combat what they couldn't understand. All of my siblings have it. And before you ask, my IQ has been measured at 142. So I am far from an idiot. In fact, Bipolar has been called "The Brilliant Madness". Look it up sometime and you would be surprised just who is on the list of sufferers.

[Petrarch's Love]

Jtolj--I can tell you've never intimately known someone who has clinical depression (or schizophrenia or any other serious mental disease). If you had you would know that there is no doubt that this is a disease, and something seperate from the essential being or soul or whatever you want to call it, of the person suffering from it. I have been close to people who suffer from this, and there was no question whatsoever to me that the mental illness had nothing at all to do with their personalities. These were not normally weak people or unhappy sulky types who worried about death all the time. One person whom I was very close to and who suffered from severe clinical depression was honestly one of the happiest, most loving and optimistic people I have ever known. When she had a bad episode though, it was like something had taken away part of the person I knew and sapped her of the mental strength to do even the most basic things. It was the same way I've felt knowing someone who has had their physical strength sapped by an illness like cancer. You may think this is an "invisible" illness, but if you had ever witnessed a mental illness like this transform someone you love, and watched their true self trying to battle against it, you would know that it is just as visible and palpable an illness as anything else.

Since I'm not sure if any of the above is going to get through to you, I thought I'd also point out why people find what you're saying so deeply callous and offensive. You're saying that these conditions are just a part of a person's personality and attributable to them thinking about certain stuff like death too much, and that implies that they could just think their way out of this problem. I'm sorry but, whether you like it or not, people with mental illnesses cannot just decide to think positive and get out of their problems. They would do anything if they only could. It's like telling someone with cancer that there's nothing wrong with them that a little normal diet and exercise wouldn't fix.

[Dimitra]

I completely disaggree with the title..Clearly there are some other factors besides social that play a part in the development of a disease like shizophrenia,depression,paranoia even many kinds of phobias.The easiest way to determine the existense and importance of these factors is by studying a family tree.When such diseases are appearing many times over the generations of a family tree,as they do,that's a clear sign that there are hereditary factors in the equation...

[Jtolj]

Even if there is no clear external cause, it could be a cause of someone simply realizing something. There is never ever ever a genetic/biological cause to mental illness.

One thing:
It has never prooved and no evidence exists that would suggest it after scrutiny

Other thing:
People are't born to certain mental characteristsic as in illnesses. Probably, the family was just that way because persons take from eachothers attitude.

Other thing:
There is a big difference with "mental" and "neurological"

I am not ever going to believe that in a form of any way it is biological, because they have no proof, and they will never find it, because if you think hard, it just couldn't be.

[cuppajoe_9]

Jt, buddy, you have two things:

1. An opinion.
2. Nothing to back it up.


It has never prooved and no evidence exists that would suggest it after scrutiny

Read this (http://depression.about.com/od/causes/a/mutantgene.htm), bearing in mind that nobody is saying that it is the only cause, and that, in fact, there is no single cause.

[kathycf]

I have more to discuss with this, but am wondering if I should. So many people have written intelligent and thoughtful answers to the original question....and yet it seems the author of the thread, for all his or her's apparent intelligence is simply interested in broad sweeping generalizations about people, making guesses and assumptions about what takes place in other people's minds.

Sorry, jtolj, but it really just seems like you are not interested in even reading what others write, but more in presenting your assumptions and opinions as facts. Again, I must say opinions are well and good, but need to be presented as such...as in "It is my opinion that depression does not have a genetic component" or "It is my opinion that all depression is sadness when people think about death"

But instead, you present those opinions as FACT. Maybe some people do feel the way you say, but you cannot (nor will you) speak for me. Your opinions are yours, they may be shared by others but they are also subjective in nature....

Apologies in advance for my sarcasm, :blush: but I am just annoyed. This is an analogy of when opinions run amuck...

We can all agree that the sky is blue. We look up and lo, there it is, a whole big expanse of blue. Shall we discuss why it is so? Well, it is MY opinion that the sky is blue because it is made up of millions and millions of robin's eggs. Since that is MY opinion, and everybody else thinks that too, (I said so) gosh, it must be the truth right? :rolleyes:

[RobinHood3000]

I think it's fairly clear that Jtolj has no intent of modifying his/her opinion, regardless of what is presented before him/her. To add my two cents...

"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
-- Winston Churchill

[Logos]

Rise up and stop with this evil.
Are you a scientologist? (http://www.cchr.com/)


All I want to say right now is just that it is not physical.


Mental is stuff like depression, where it is not memory and nerve impulses but behavior and feelings.

My beleive is that disease is that the only natural illness is physical hurt because it can be measured and seen. While mental illness is just a way people are.

Obviously then you've never heard of MRI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_Resonance_Imaging), EEGs, CAT or PET scans etc., all which in myriad ways can capture images and activity within the brain and it's many neurotransmitters like serotonin transporter genes etc. which are responsible for how a person feels.
http://www.brainviews.com/abFiles/ImgPet.htm
http://www.physorg.com/news4026.html

[Jtolj]

I apolgize. It's just I know in my heart this is true, and I would gladly considering die so it could be made in great proof. Assume now that what I said so far is opinion (but it is true!)

[Jtolj]

Jt, buddy, you have two things:

1. An opinion.
2. Nothing to back it up.



Read this (http://depression.about.com/od/causes/a/mutantgene.htm), bearing in mind that nobody is saying that it is the only cause, and that, in fact, there is no single cause.The gene prooves nothing in that sense. They have not proven that a lack of serotonin causes depression. They only proved that a lack of serotonin could mean depression. All this prooves is that they could feel the physiological symptons of normal depression more.


Also:
Look, maybe I'm unique but I consider issuses of feelings and thoughts different than memory. One is reactions and one is data.

[RobinHood3000]

No man commits atrocities with as much vigor and as much cheerfulness as in the name of religion. Make no mistake, the belief that is the premise of this thread has less corroboration than most world religions, and is at least as absurd.

Memory and emotions can be found in the same place. Is it so difficult to believe that what can affect one can affect the other?

[Jtolj]

Are you a scientologist? (http://www.cchr.com/)





Obviously then you've never heard of MRI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_Resonance_Imaging), EEGs, CAT or PET scans etc., all which in myriad ways can capture images and activity within the brain and it's many neurotransmitters like serotonin transporter genes etc. which are responsible for how a person feels.
http://www.brainviews.com/abFiles/ImgPet.htm
http://www.physorg.com/news4026.html
No, but the way we feel is represented by the brain.

[RobinHood3000]

Memory and emotions can be found in the same place. Is it so difficult to believe that what can affect one can affect the other?

[AimusSage]

Can I just shout one word???

Please???

Okay, here it goes: DENIAL!

[cuppajoe_9]

The gene prooves nothing in that sense. They have not proven that a lack of serotonin causes depression. They only proved that a lack of serotonin could mean depression.Ok, but by your standards they have not 'proven' that decapitation causes death. They have only proved that the fact that your head is no longer connected to your body could mean that you're dead.
I apolgize. It's just I know in my heart this is true, and I would gladly considering die so it could be made in great proof.In science, sincerity of belief is not considered an indicator of truth. For exactly this reason, actually.

[cuppajoe_9]

Even if there is no clear external cause, it could be a cause of someone simply realizing something.

Just so we're clear, how many times do you think this scene has played out in reality?

Psychiatrist: When did you start experiencing this depression?
Patient: Hmmm, it was just around the time that I realized that life is meaningless and nothing can be known or communicated.
Psychiatrist: Well, that's probably just a coincidence.

[Logos]

Can I just shout one word???

Please???

Okay, here it goes: DENIAL!
I didn't get that, maybe you could type _ s l o w e r _ next time :p

[Jtolj]

Ok, but by your standards they have not 'proven' that decapitation causes death. They have only proved that the fact that your head is no longer connected to your body could mean that you're dead.In science, sincerity of belief is not considered an indicator of truth. For exactly this reason, actually.If a person were depressed naturally, they may have different serotonin. That's what I meant. That's very different.

Sure, emotion is affected by memory, in the sense we think of emotional memories. Our ability to feel emotion and our ability to make memory are different. One is the way a person feels and one is data.

[Jtolj]

Just so we're clear, how many times do you think this scene has played out in reality?

Psychiatrist: When did you start experiencing this depression?
Patient: Hmmm, it was just around the time that I realized that life is meaningless and nothing can be known or communicated.
Psychiatrist: Well, that's probably just a coincidence.It might not happen a ton because Psychiatrists are too busy with these crackpot ideas!

People don't even make an effort to say real things.

[cuppajoe_9]

If a person were depressed naturally, they may have different serotonin. That's what I meant. That's very different.

*sigh* And the fact that the seratonin-repressing gene is present 10 times more often in sufferers of clinical depression than in the general population is just a coincidence, is it?


It might not happen a ton because Psychiatrists are too busy with these crackpot ideas! That instance probably occurs a ton!

Are you aware that the vast majority of psychiatrists went to school for all those years out of a desire to actually cure their patients, or are you going to involk the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (http://www.cyberdespot.com/home.html?eac.html&frames/left.html&frames/top.html) again?

[AimusSage]

I didn't get that, maybe you could type _ s l o w e r _ next time :p
SLOWER

Better?

apologies to everyone who can take this seriously. :goof:

[Logos]

srsly, my brain hurts now :p --> :brickwall

[Jtolj]

*sigh[B]* And the fact that the seratonin-repressing gene is present 10 times more often in sufferers of clinical depression than in the general population is just a coincidence, is it?


Are you aware that the vast majority of psychiatrists went to school for all those years out of a desire to actually cure their patients, or are you going to involk the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (http://www.cyberdespot.com/home.html?eac.html&frames/left.html&frames/top.html) again?
No, it's not a coincidence. Maybe those that feel worse about their depression (in terms of physiological response), will then even get depressed for how bad they might physically feel.

[Jtolj]

*sigh* And the fact that the seratonin-repressing gene is present 10 times more often in sufferers of clinical depression than in the general population is just a coincidence, is it?



Are you aware that the vast majority of psychiatrists went to school for all those years out of a desire to actually cure their patients, or are you going to involk the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (http://www.cyberdespot.com/home.html?eac.html&frames/left.html&frames/top.html) again?The Athiest conspiracy isn't a real conspiracy but merely an ill-informed movement that only looks at things from an athiestic perspective (and not a neutrel one) and thus is hurting society by taking ideas that are less likely to be true but more athiestic.

[kathycf]

Well, thank you all for a stirring debate. I do not doubt the sincerity of your opinions, jtolj and I am not going to try to change your mind, and as you may have guessed by now....you are not going to change mine. It is my belief (as I have tried to convey before) that many illnesses (not just mental illness) have a myriad of causes.

Depression is just ONE mental illness and it's cause may be from internal sources (genes, neural transmitter levels in the brain) OR from external (abuse, neglect, loss) OR even (and here is a crazy idea) maybe a combination of factors!!! Or even nothing that is readily apparent! Humans are complicated and if any doctors or team of scientists says they know everything about how the human brain functions then I will have to laugh because that would be an April Fools joke indeed.

[RobinHood3000]

Sure, emotion is affected by memory, in the sense we think of emotional memories. Our ability to feel emotion and our ability to make memory are different. One is the way a person feels and one is data.Both boil down to the interaction of chemicals between the ears.

The most ironic thing about your argument that "emotional illness is purely social": the binary of emotions-vs-logic is a social construct.

[cuppajoe_9]

The Athiest conspiracy isn't a real conspiracy but merely an ill-informed movement that only looks at things from an athiestic perspective (and not a neutrel one) and thus is hurting society by taking ideas that are less likely to be true but more athiestic.

*sigh* From the official Evil Atheist Conspiracy website (http://evilatheistconspiracy.org/):
The Evil Atheist Conspiracy — a shadowy, diabolic organization of the godless that has infiltrated all the world's power structures and is gradually tightening its hold in preparation for the day when it will strike, conquer the planet itself and exterminate all things good, right and holy once and for all.

It doesn't exist.

In other words: We're not out to get you! Some of us (myself included) consider organized religion a 'bad thing', but we leave agressive conversions to the religions!

[cuppajoe_9]

Maybe those that feel worse about their depression (in terms of physiological response), will then even get depressed for how bad they might physically feel.Well that would be clinical depression as a result of a biological disorder, now wouldn't it?

[Pendragon]

One thing:
It has never prooved and no evidence exists that would suggest it after scrutiny

Other thing:
People are't born to certain mental characteristsic as in illnesses. Probably, the family was just that way because persons take from eachothers attitude.

Other thing:
There is a big difference with "mental" and "neurological"

I am not ever going to believe that in a form of any way it is biological, because they have no proof, and they will never find it, because if you think hard, it just couldn't be.You are definitely living in your own little world, mon ami. Take this statement: "Probably, the family was just that way because persons take from each others attitude." For your information, the disease runs in my dad's family. My dad left my family soon after my younger brother was born, before I was 5. I had pretty much zero contact with dad or his side of the family. I went down with the illness first in the sixth grade, it was misdiagnosed, and when I finally went down for good, I was 33. My brother went down for good at 42. My sister has had episodes her whole life. She got married at 15, moved away, and I see her maybe once a year. My brother and I are not close either. So much for your theory.

[Jtolj]

Well that would be clinical depression as a result of a biological disorder, now wouldn't it?No. It would be as people feeling sad from physical pain.It doesn't make people depressed arbitrarily, but in a real way, and that is as maybe far as it can go. It is a real thing causing depression and not a chemical wrong.

[Jtolj]

You are definitely living in your own little world, mon ami. Take this statement: "Probably, the family was just that way because persons take from each others attitude." For your information, the disease runs in my dad's family. My dad left my family soon after my younger brother was born, before I was 5. I had pretty much zero contact with dad or his side of the family. I went down with the illness first in the sixth grade, it was misdiagnosed, and when I finally went down for good, I was 33. My brother went down for good at 42. My sister has had episodes her whole life. She got married at 15, moved away, and I see her maybe once a year. My brother and I are not close either. So much for your theory.What illness was this?

[miss tenderness]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sol77
Had to jump in on this discussion, hi.

I haven't tested this idea yet but I believe that we can be programmed by attitude, lifestyle, experiences etc in such a way that our bodies changes it's chemical balance long-term. E.g less dopamine is produced maybe because an individual is suffering from a depression which could lead to a lack of motivation and a harder time learning. This ailments would be a mental illness caused by social factors and this supports what I percieve to be your point. (I should point out that the role of dopamine hasn't fully been mapped yet but many experiments suggest that it is involved in not only learning but motivation as well.)


Awww, my dear friend Solly has joined the Forum. Yay! So, sol welcome to the forum.

Ok, I think you make an interesting point here, which is something I was trying to convey earlier. I think it is very difficult to seperate strictly biological or strictly enviromental causes for most diseases, never mind mental illness. People who never smoke can and do get lung cancer, but are any of us going to question that smoking greatly increases one's risk? This would be an one example (in my mind anyways) of internal factors (something that may be inherited, or that an individual has a genetic predisposition to) vs external (cigarette smoking) that influence a disease. Of course diseases of the brain are not as understood....medicine is still trying to learn all the ways the brain functions. This also puts me in mind of the whole nature vs nurture debate and the controversy surrounding that.

Welcome to Kath's friends have a good time here.
Here's what I think"
Whomever has experienced a thing ,he knows about it better and he's qualified to talk about it!

[cuppajoe_9]

No. It would be as people feeling sad from physical pain.It doesn't make people depressed arbitrarily, but in a real way, and that is as maybe far as it can go. It is a real thing causing depression and not a chemical wrong.Everybody on earth experiences physical pain, but not everybody suffers from clinical depression. A gene that can be demonstrated in experiment to supress seratonin production is found in sufferers of clinical depression 10 times more frequently than in the general population. The fact that seratonin affects one's mood is beyond question. The drug ecstasy, for example, works by (among other things) spiking seratonin levels. To say that there is no evidence that would suggest a chemical link to major depressive disorder is to sugest and enormous conspiracy of psychologists, psychiatrists and medical researchers.
What illness was this?Pendragon suffers from bi-polar disorder.

[Shalot]

I was treated for depression and before my therapist prescribed the anti-depressants, we did this whole cognitive therapy thing. She talked to me about actively trying to reprogram my thoughts. The idea is that I was supposed to just think new thoughts instead of being caught in the same thought patterns and dwelling on the negative thoughts that were making me depressed. And she also suggested that I have a spiritual life.

Anyway, I don't think you can just dismiss depression (or any other mental disorder or problem) like that.

I am better now and it took a long time to get over it. It took a combination of drugs (although I just kind of stopped taking them one day because I decided they were making me goofy) and therapy and time. In fact, because of insurance issues, I stopped having my therapy before I was actually ready. But I do think the therapy was beneficial and necessary. I think each case is different and you can't just issue a blanket statement like, "... the idea of mental illness being caused by biological illness is wrong."

[Jtolj]

Everybody on earth experiences physical pain, but not everybody suffers from clinical depression. A gene that can be demonstrated in experiment to supress seratonin production is found in sufferers of clinical depression 10 times more frequently than in the general population. The fact that seratonin affects one's mood is beyond question. The drug ecstasy, for example, works by (among other things) spiking seratonin levels. To say that there is no evidence that would suggest a chemical link to major depressive disorder is to sugest and enormous conspiracy of psychologists, psychiatrists and medical researchers.Pendragon suffers from bi-polar disorder.
I am not saying it is conspiracy but simply a general misview that has been put into consensus. What I wish to say is that people are depressed for a real reason and are not arbitrarily depressed by chemical breakage.

Pendragon, People are in bipolar phases all the time, I think maybe you all just happened to act that way. Cuz, anyway, even if it were "genetic", there'd still have to be a reason to trigger it, and I think more likely, you all just happened to act that way at some point, going to see it as bipolar. I can't give another example, but I find it hard to think you all've the same chemical breakage, causing you to act that way arbitrarily.

Just in general I know just which I am talking about. I have met who were said to have such and I have read your side. I'm not satisfied. The example of the person with red image I think prooves my point, that depression is not arbitrarily from chemical breakage.

[cuppajoe_9]

I am not saying it is conspiracy but simply a general misview that has been put into consensus. What I wish to say is that people are depressed for a real reason and are not arbitrarily depressed by chemical breakage.Ok, one more time: Clinical depression has multiple causes. One of them is social. Another one is genetic. Whether you believe this or not has no effect whatsoever on whether or not it is true.
Pendragon, People are in bipolar phases all the time, I think maybe you all just happened to act that way. Cuz, anyway, even if it were "genetic", there'd still have to be a reason to trigger it, and I think more likely, you all just happened to act that way at some point, going to see it as bipolar.Son, do you have ANY idea what bi-polar disorder is? I'll give you a hint: it isn't just "mood swings" (kind of the way major depressive disorder isn't just "feeling sad").
Just in general I do grasp what I am talking of. I have met who were said to have such and I have read your side. I'm not satisfied. The example of the person with red image I think prooves my point, that depression is not arbitrarily from chemical breakage.No, there are multiple causes. I was under the impression that the 'point' you are trying to get across is:
I was trying to say its causes were only social.

[Gordon Comstock]

I have a little time at the end of the day to indulge in the freedom of speech after spending my days in an alternative classroom full of students who experience a myriad of mental disorders. It wasn't until this evening's post from JT that he mentioned a word I don't think he understands: trigger. Triggers are not always identifiable. Chemical, neurological, external, whatever. The key is trigger. I am a sufferer of many of the discussed and was diagnosed late. "They" have found that there isn't one thing but many numerous stimuli that trigger my episodes; some still are undefined.

If educated researchers who have devoted lengthy periods and substantial funds are still perplexed by such abnormalities, how can we condemn this poor uneducated soul? Harsh is Harsh, and as Forrest Gump's mom said: "Life is like a box of chocolates..."

[RobinHood3000]

It is a real thing causing depression and not a chemical wrong.Chemists all the world over are indignant at the opinion that chemicals are no less real than social stimuli.


Pendragon, People are in bipolar phases all the time, I think maybe you all just happened to act that way. Cuz, anyway, even if it were "genetic", there'd still have to be a reason to trigger it, and I think more likely, you all just happened to act that way at some point, going to see it as bipolar. I can't give another example, but I find it hard to think you all've the same chemical breakage, causing you to act that way arbitrarily.The same "chemical breakage" among various people is no less incredible than similar social stimuli among them. And I would thank you not to dismiss my friend's troubles without some comprehension of their gravity.


Just in general I know just which I am talking about. I have met who were said to have such and I have read your side. I'm not satisfied. The example of the person with red image I think prooves my point, that depression is not arbitrarily from chemical breakage.You mean Shalot, who said that chemical therapy was necessary to help her condition? (My apologies, Shalot, if I misread.)

What more do you want? Would that you could exchange minds with one of the sufferers here for a while and try to think your way out of it...

[Pendragon]

You know, Jtolj, I am beginning to see why people like myself and others feel we must be silent about our illness, because it is people like yourself that attach the stigma of the illness to us. Perhaps you do not read the Bible either, but this quote fits so well I am going to use it: "but if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."--(1 Cor. 14:37). You cannot be bothered to educate yourself to understand anything about mental disorders, you sound like the same people who excommunicated me from church despite service of 14 years as an Ordained Minister, and I don't need your permission to exist, thank you very much. I still fulfill my duty as a Minister when health allows, and don't sit on my tail and feel sorry for myself. I write, I've tried several times to return to work, earning skills in the process, and I will do what I have to do. You're always welcome to spend three weeks in a mental hospital as a patient, if you think it's not bad.

[kathycf]

You know when I first read this thread a few days ago, it made me feel very upset and disrespected. Now, I really don't feel bad about it. It just is not important enough to me to worry about the opinions of people who may be nice and great people and all that, but who will just never ever understand people like me, no matter what I say.

I must repeat again: the OPINION of people who will not understand me...because that is what it is. No matter how vehemently or how sincerely an opinion is expressed it does not make it FACT. My experiences and opinions are my own and others may feel that I am wrong, well, so be it. I do not pretend to have all the answers, nor do I have the overwhelming self confidence to feel that my way is the only way....

[Gordon Comstock]

My way is sure not the only way, and my friends in group and sessions support that concept also. So who are we? We are, to quote one of my personal favorites: "I yam who I yam . . ." Popeye

[Jtolj]

Look, I understand you, I just don't think it is biologically causes.

[ShoutGrace]

Look, I understand you,

You clearly do not.


I just don't think it is biologically causes.

You can think whatever you like. What you cannot do is succeed in rationally defending your uninformed, willfully ignorant opinion.

Kathy, Pen, Shalot, and the rest of you brave souls who have been so candid and honest, your contributions here have served a great purpose. You may not have managed to change the opening poster's mind, but you have provided a clear and concise refutation to their opinion, replete with facts and personal testimony. Any future reader will benefit greatly from your efforts. I for one thank you humbly.

[Madhuri]

JT, I think that depression could be from reasons other than social.

For example -- A person is very happy, all is going great in his/her life (personally, professionaly), but that person has a family history of depression caused from genetic reasons. Now, there will be a day when the symptoms will appear (mind you, the person has no social reasons to get depressed), only because of genetic reasons, and then things will change. He/she will have to take help (be it medicines/counselling), to get over the disease.

So, the 'real reason' as you say, to cause depression could be any (social/biological).

[kathycf]

Kathy, Pen, Shalot, and the rest of you brave souls who have been so candid and honest, your contributions here have served a great purpose. You may not have managed to change the opening poster's mind, but you have provided a clear and concise refutation to their opinion, replete with facts and personal testimony. Any future reader will benefit greatly from your efforts. I for one thank you humbly.
Thank you David.

Look, I understand you, I just don't think it is biologically causes.
And you are entitled to your opinion. I personally do not feel that you understand, nor do I think you have really even bothered to read through what others have been writing here. I tend to believe that you are making the issue overly simple. The causes may be myriad, and to say that your belief is more valid than the experiences of people like myself who have actually suffered and dealt with mental illnesses is just wrong to me. There a billions of people on this earth...some may share your feelings and opinions and yet....many may not.

I do not pretend to have all the answers, nor do I have the overwhelming self confidence to feel that my way is the only way....

My way is sure not the only way, and my friends in group and sessions support that concept also. So who are we? We are, to quote one of my personal favorites: "I yam who I yam . . ." Popeye
Right on! :thumbs_up :)

[Shalot]

You know what? I don't think this person really even cares about the issue. I think he/she is just trying to posts things that most of us are going to be offended by. At first, I was just trying to offer what little I know about mental illness, but then I read some of the other threads and it seems to me like he/she is just trying to push emotional hot buttons for fun or amusement or whatever. Maybe he/she is playing the "how many controversial threads/posts does it take to get banned?" game. Is that what you're doing Jtolj?

I like LitNet because the rules state that you have to be respectful of everyone else. There is nothing worse than posting something somewhere and then getting "flamed" (is that the term now?-- it was five years ago).

And just to get back on topic -- I remember when I was right in the middle of the whole depression episode and I did encounter people who thought I was selfish or weak or whatever and didn't think my affliction was legitimate. But I like to think of myself as a recovered person and to repeat myself, the treatment was necessary and beneficial. So there.

[Gordon Comstock]

But I like to think of myself as a recovered person and to repeat myself, the treatment was necessary and beneficial. So there. - Shalot

This very much how I believe as I have learned to cope. Great answer!:thumbs_up

[genoveva]

It's ridiculous because people are the way they are, or people feel certain ways, (not counting hallucinations, but hallucinations alone are not called mental illness and crazy reactions people may have to them are genuine because they feel it is real) etc.

Basically, I think that since they haven't defintive proof that mental illness is caused by a physical ill (and they haven't, the tests were debunked), then that must mean that it probably is just people's life.

The idea of it being biological is destroying a lot of our society, and it must be exposed. We have souls, and considering human facets physical flaws is radical athiesm (there is nothing wrong moderate athiesm, although I greatly am not in its standings) that has penetrated our sciences.

Rise up and stop with this evil.

Very interesting post, though not well written, and hard to understand what is meant at times. When you talk about mental illness, you should really be careful using the word "crazy". This term is not embraced by the community who support the "mentally ill" rights.

It is also important to not group all mental illnesses in the same category. So, you can't make such untrue generalizations. There are psychosomatic, somatoform, and anxiety disorders. There is depression and mania, suicidal behavior, eating disorders, sexuality and psychosexual disorders, disorders of sexual function, personality disorders, dissociative disorder, schizophrenia, and delusional disorders, and drug dependence and addiction. Many mental illnesses have been linked to biological bases, though not all.

[Pendragon]

I also appreciate your kind words, David. And to Kathy, Gordon Comstock, (By the way, Gordon, welcome to the forum!), and Shalot for sharing their stories. In my own case, I shall probably have to make do with a day to day existence, medicine and counseling can do only so much when you go misdiagnosed for as long as I did, and then had people convince me of the things of which JT was speaking, so that I refused treatment until I had a total breakdown. And then it was too late and those same people said "YOYO, bye!" I may be too broke to fix completely. But when I lost my support group, and no one around here would give me the time of day, I found another support group--called LitNet. Here I am welcome, and the one time I thought about leaving I was asked to stay. Here I find people who care, people who even are willing to take up for me when they think someone is riding me too hard. I am thankful for LitNet, because when I'm down, someone makes me laugh somehow, when my nerves are shot, someone manages to calm them, often without knowing it at all. Thanks to all of my LitNet friends. And JT, you did make me think, anyway, and I'm the type who would rather be a friend than an enemy. I'll offer an olive branch. Will you accept it?

[tucsongirl]

Wow! I am new to Litnet and this is by far the most emotion evoking thread I've seen.
Shalot I agree with you they just want to offend.

I appreciate the honesty of everyone who posted something positive here. I too have a few disorders, mostly anxiety and panic disorder, but sometimes the depression creeps back in.
I think people who experience any these disorders have enough to deal with just getting through the day sometimes.

Be kind whenever possible.......It is always possible Dalai Lama

[Shalot]

well, it does appear that JT has been banned. when did that happen? What was the last straw?

[Logos]

Well, they were banned for something to do with one last ignored warning (of many) about the forum rules.

[Gordon Comstock]

Well, they were banned for something to do with one last ignored warning (of many) ...

Hey,
I've been caught up teaching the last couple of weeks and have missed this place. Glad to see this has happened. As I tell my students: arrogance and ignorance mix like chocolate and milk.
Glad to be back

[PistisSophia]

PET scan - biological basis for mental illness can can be seen in live, real time.

[Shalot]

I keep hearing these reports about how the anti-depressants such as Zoloft and Prozac cause suicidal thinking (morning edition NPR), but the people who are taking these pills are already depressed so could the thoughts just be part of the depression? It's just an observation though. I am not a doctor and not qualified to make any sort of assessement. But to the uninformed person, that whole report just sounded kind of....not right to me. Of course I was getting ready for work, not fully awake, stepping over my cat, and drinking my coffee while this news report was on, so I could have missed some key details. Just an observation.

[kathycf]

Sometimes anti-depressants have been associated with suicidal behavior with younger children and adolescents. Not sure if that is what the radio program was referring to however.

The Washington Post: "Two to 3 percent of children treated with antidepressants had suicidal thoughts or behavior as a result of the drugs, officials said yesterday (at the FDA hearing).... In a sharp departure from a decade-old position, agency officials said the increase in suicidal tendencies was not a result of the children's underlying depression but was caused by the medications themselves."

The New York Times: "Top officials of the FDA acknowledged for the first time on Monday that antidepressants appeared to lead some children and teenagers to become suicidal. Dr. Robert Temple, director of the FDA's office of medical policy, said ...that analyses of 15 clinical trials, some of which were hidden for years from the public by the drug companies that sponsored them, showed a consistent link with suicidal behavior."

[Pendragon]

I keep hearing these reports about how the anti-depressants such as Zoloft and Prozac cause suicidal thinking (morning edition NPR), but the people who are taking these pills are already depressed so could the thoughts just be part of the depression? It's just an observation though. I am not a doctor and not qualified to make any sort of assessement. But to the uninformed person, that whole report just sounded kind of....not right to me. Of course I was getting ready for work, not fully awake, stepping over my cat, and drinking my coffee while this news report was on, so I could have missed some key details. Just an observation.
It would be a very tough call. I know myself that since I have to have my medicine changed and updated regularly to live any sort of normal life, they have twice crossed up my medications and sent me into seizures. In one case, the drug manufacturer had changed the formula for the extended release portion of the drug. Now, I am allergic to that medication. In the other, one medicine causes the other to be more effective and drove the level to a toxic dose. I am still going through withdrawal there, as I had to suddendly discontinue a 150mg dose with no taperring. But the medicine I am on now is doing great! So I guess you go through the fire to find the refined product that does the job! No fun, but you do what you do what you just gotta do! :(