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Broken mirror
10-10-2006, 12:44 PM
PLEASE RESPECT COPYRIGHT LAWS: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17515

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- Vicent Andrés Estellés, Valencian, 1924-1993
From his "Book of Wonders", translation by Jack H. Smith, Professor at the University at Albany (so, a good translation):


THE LOVERS


Flesh craves flesh (Ausias March)


Never were there in València two lovers like us.

We loved ferociously, from morn 'til night.
I recall everything, as you hang out the clothes.
Years have passed, many years: many things have happened.
Suddenly that wind, or love, seizes me still
And we roll on the ground amidst embraces and kisses.
We do not know love as a loving custom,
As a quiet custom of politeness and finery
(and may the chaste López-Picó* pardon us).
Love, It awakens suddenly, like an old hurricane,
it throws us to the ground, it joins us together,
squeezing us tightly.
Sometimes I desired a courteous love,
With the gramophone on, kissing you idly,
Now a shoulder, next an ear lobe.
Our love is a brusque and savage love
And we feel a bitter yearning for the earth,
Of rolling upside down amidst kisses and clutches.
I'll say it clear. Primal, ... I know it.
We ignore Petrarch's work, we ignore many things.
The stanzas of Riba**, the rhymes of Bécquer.
Afterwards, lying somehow on the ground,
We realise that we are barbarous, that this may not be,
we are not in the right age, and this and that.

Never were there in València two lovers like us,
Lovers like us are just not born !

* López-Picó, http://www.uoc.edu/lletra/especials/folch/lopezpic.htm , was a very religious catalan poet, who had a strange catholic conception of Love.
** Carles Riba was another catalan poet, and an excellent translator of Homer, Virgil, Dante, even the Bible!

Original poem:

ELS AMANTS

La carn vol carn (Ausias March)


No hi havia a València dos amants com nosaltres.

Feroçment ens amàvem del matí a la nit.
Tot ho recorde mentre vas estenent la roba.
Han passat anys, molt anys; han passat moltes coses.
De sobte encara em pren aquell vent o l'amor
i rodolem per terra entre abraços i besos.
No comprenem l'amor com un costum amable,
com un costum pacífic de compliment i teles
(i que ens perdone el cast senyor López-Picó).
Es desperta, de sobte, com un vell huracà,
i ens tomba en terra els dos, ens ajunta, ens empeny.
Jo desitjava, a voltes, un amor educat
i en marxa el tocadiscos, negligentment besant-te,
ara un muscle i després el peço d'una orella.
El nostre amor es un amor brusc i salvatge
i tenim l'enyorança amarga de la terra,
d'anar a rebolcons entre besos i arraps.
Què voleu que hi faça! Elemental, ja ho sé.
Ignorem el Petrarca i ignorem moltes coses.
Les Estances de Riba i les Rimas de Bécquer.
Després, tombats en terra de qualsevol manera,
comprenem que som bàrbars, i que aixòno deu ser,
que no estem en l'edat, i tot això i allò.

No hi havia a València dos amants com nosaltres,
car d'amants com nosaltres en son parits ben pocs.

Mrs. Dalloway
03-23-2007, 08:26 AM
Are you Catalan?? I'm Catalan!! I'm very surprised to find a message of Catalan literature, and very happy as well! :D

Does anyone knows sth about Catalan literature? Have you ever read sth? :yawnb:

Mrs. Dalloway
03-25-2007, 05:43 PM
:yawnb:

niblungen
03-26-2007, 02:02 PM
I wonder what the "Catalan Countries" are. They certainly don't appear in my Atlas...

Mrs. Dalloway
09-08-2007, 08:52 AM
I wonder what the "Catalan Countries" are. They certainly don't appear in my Atlas...

Of course they appear there... But they're considered Spanish, French and also Italian lands. Does Ireland/North Ireland appear? and Scotland?

quasimodo1
09-09-2007, 04:22 PM
To Broken Mirror and Mrs. Dallaway: Great choice of thread. My knowledge of Spanish is limited to a few years and one great Catalan teacher, a Marist priest from that area. Didn't the "sth" thing arise from the King of Spain at the time had some kind of speach impediment? Then he made his countrymen imitate it? Guessing. quasimodo1

Mrs. Dalloway
09-09-2007, 07:22 PM
Quasimodo I don't know what do you mean by "sth". Is it a sound? Do you mean the "ch" (not "k") ?

quasimodo1
09-09-2007, 07:28 PM
To Mrs. Dalloway: My understanding is from association with a friend who has deep knowledge of Spain and Spanish. The suffix mentioned comes across as sounding like a lisp, hence the "sth" sound which would only be applied to certain words. Maybe the author of this thread could tell us. quasimodo1

Mrs. Dalloway
09-09-2007, 07:36 PM
can you say a word with that suffix please? (you can use an English word with that sound if you want because I don't know what "sth" sound is :)...)

I speak Spanish and Catalan very usually because I'm from Barcelona. In some areas there is lisp but I need a little bit more information to know what you are saying.

quasimodo1
09-09-2007, 07:46 PM
Ok, the word "Barcelona" would probably sound like, "Barthelona" with a slightly exaggerated "th" sound. I know it seems ridiculous but the way I understand it... a certain King of Spain (and there is some more history to this) spoke with a lisp. If the information I have is sound, this monarchy would have anyone speeking in his presence, pronounce words the same way. Then it was adopted by the population. Far fetched? Yea quasimodo1

Mrs. Dalloway
09-09-2007, 08:04 PM
Really interesting quasimodo. I'll check it! Anyway, it's really strange because this lisp is only said in some areas of "Spain". So, if it was a King with that lisp and he made his people say it, why is it said in a some areas of Spain but not in the others? I'll check it, OK?

I heard, a similar "story" but this is really true: there was a poet whose name is Juan Ramon Jimenez. Well, "Jimenez" is a castilian surname which is written with a "G" instead of with a "J" but this poet always wrote it with a "J" because he has an speech or writing problem. So, now this surname exists with a "J" and also with a "G". ;)

quasimodo1
09-09-2007, 08:09 PM
To Mrs. Dalloway: Please, I'd like to know for sure. Trying to update some threads, and wish there would be more postings. Get back to me, stuck on this machine until 11pm. quasimodo1

Mrs. Dalloway
09-09-2007, 08:24 PM
I've found it :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceceo

http://www.spanish.bz/dialects.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-57225,00.html

http://linguistlist.org/issues/11/11-2186.html

I'm sorry but it seems to be a legend... ;) and it's because it is only said in the South of Spain. However, maybe we won't ever know it!

quasimodo1
09-09-2007, 08:33 PM
Actually, I'm relieved to find out it is legendary. The historical Moorish connection makes alot more sense. There must be a little truth in the "kings lisp" theory according to my friend and he spent seven years in a Spanish Augustinian order. So where are all the poetry posters? quasimodo1

quasimodo1
09-09-2007, 08:42 PM
http://perso.wanadoo.es/lipmic/Pluricat/eng/index.htm

Mrs. Dalloway
09-10-2007, 07:08 AM
Very nice link! I didn't know that catalan poems were translated into English!! wonderful :D do you like catalan literature?

quasimodo1
09-10-2007, 09:44 AM
To Mrs. Dalloway: Just go lucky with the link. As for Catolan poetry, it's a learning experience. quasimodo1

Mrs. Dalloway
09-14-2007, 06:19 PM
we have excellent poets here!!! If you are interested in them, just say it to me :thumbs_up

ifiaskaquestion
09-20-2007, 12:18 PM
Could anyone name me the best catalan poets... with good English translations ?

quasimodo1
09-20-2007, 12:53 PM
to Ifiaskaquestion: There is a link noted in previous posting on this thread. Whether they are the best or not, well, maybe only Catalan natives would have the best opinion since they read without translation. quasi

Mrs. Dalloway
09-20-2007, 01:00 PM
Yes, most of the poets of the link are "the best" ones. But there are more that don't appear at the link. I like J.V. Foix, Josep Carner, Salvador Espriu, Pere Quart, Ausiàs March i Carles Riba but the other poets are also great :) as Joan Maragall, Maria Mercè Marçal, Joan Salvat Pappasseit, Joan Fuster, Gabriel Ferrater, Joan Margarit...

I'll try to find some links with English translations ;)

Mrs. Dalloway
09-20-2007, 01:09 PM
Here I've found a very good website: http://www.uoc.edu/lletra/especials/folch/

There you can find poems of any period in Catalan Literature. If a "British flag" appears above the poem, it means that there is an English translation of it. If not, it means that there is only the original poem. "Noves Generacions" means the poets of this century or the end of XX Century. So there you can find Maria Mercè Marçal's poems.

Then: http://www.geocities.com/johbeil/ferrater-e.html 3 poems of Gabriel Ferrater (only in English).

I'll search some other links if you like it :)

Where are you from, ifiaskaquestion? maybe in your country you can find Catalan poetry translated.

littlewing53
09-20-2007, 01:55 PM
:thumbs_up MrsD and QM1...awesome post...the poetry is beautiful..saved the links...i wish i was more familiar w/the spanish language to read them in their native tongue....LW

Mrs. Dalloway
09-20-2007, 02:01 PM
:thumbs_up MrsD and QM1...awesome post...the poetry is beautiful..saved the links...i wish i was more familiar w/the spanish language to read them in their native tongue....LW

I'm sorry littlewing53 but it's Catalan not Spanish language... They're different languages ;)

ifiaskaquestion
09-29-2007, 03:43 PM
Thankyou Mrs.Dalloway, much appreciated x

ifiaskaquestion
09-29-2007, 03:46 PM
I come from England... i've been searching for English translations myself, but haven't had much luck.

Mrs. Dalloway
10-03-2007, 05:02 PM
have you read the websites I recommended ? ;)

littlewing53
10-03-2007, 08:58 PM
back there a few....oh my...Mrs. D...my apologies...i feel silly now...is the language related to portuguese at all? it appears as if it is a mix of languages...i am intrigued and will read more....

ClickForth
10-03-2007, 10:13 PM
okokok

Mrs. Dalloway
10-04-2007, 08:50 AM
Well... littlewing53 & ClickForth the language that is similar to Portuguese is Galician. Catalan is similar to Spanish and I think that more to Italian than to French but it's really an opinion. It's not a mixing of languages because Catalan is a language itself. It came from Latin, as Spanish, Italian and other languages.

So maybe it's normal that a person who has never listened o read a text in Catalan would think that it's a mixing of something... It happens the same when someone hasn't ever listened Korean, Chinese and Japanese because s/he may think they're are the same languages or that Vietnamete it's a mixing of those three languages. And that's not true.

:)

ClickForth
10-04-2007, 03:31 PM
okokok

Mrs. Dalloway
10-04-2007, 05:22 PM
that's great :) I speak Catalan, Spanish and a bit of Italian and that's why I think that phonetically and in terms of writing Catalan isn't similar to Portuguese...

when you would read Catalan poetry, tell us your opinion please! :):)

littlewing53
10-04-2007, 05:37 PM
yes, Mrs.D that makes sense...