Aleksandr Pushkin

[superunknown]

I've noticed that Pushkin, Russia's greatest poet and the father of Russian literature, doesn't really get as much attention as he deserves outside of the Russian-speaking world, although I suppose that's understandable to an extent as, from what I hear, even the most meticulous translations do him no justice. But I figure, if Gogol, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Bulgakov, Nabokov, Akhmatova, and pretty much every single great Russian writer ever all bow and cower before the ghost of Pushkin, it's good enough for us, right? To call him Russia's answer to Shakespeare would even be selling him short, as he was not only on Shakespeare's level as a poet, but he also developed the Russian language as a whole and significantly augmented its vocabulary.

I'm taking a Russian lit course at school and, after very briefly going over Russian folk stories like The Firebird and Igor's Campaign, we've been studying Yevgeniy Onegin (Nabokov's translations), and I have to say it's truly a fascinating book. The techniques Pushkin uses, like narrative digression and unreliable/self-conscious narrator were way ahead of their time and didn't become popular in the Western world until the 20th century. Also fascinating is the structure, in which the book is divided into two halves, with correlations between the two halves. Not to mention, on a purely technical level, the astonishing achievement of writing a whole 8-chapter novel made up of iambic tetrameter sonnets with an extremely unusual rhyme scheme (aBaBccDDeFFeGG, with capitals being masculine and lower-case being feminine rhymes) which, according to all Russian people I've asked, flows beautifully and is very easily legible. I've started learning Russian this year, and I intend to keep it going. Hopefully in about 5 years or so I can get to a level where I can read some of Pushkin's stuff and see for myself how good the real thing is, rather than a translation (however meticulously Nabokov translated it, by his own admission it's nothing compared to the original).

[Logos]

He is a great author and not forgotten here, his biography and many english translations will be added to the site in the next few days :)

[holograph]

i am russian by nationality, and my parents have always taught me how great pushkin is, but until i actually began to read his poetry in russian did i understand what they mean. he is an excellent, genius writer. once i had an english teacher, though, who told me that pushkin is overrated, and his poetry isnt as great as it is perceived to be. HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND RUSSIAN. and pushkin NEEDS to be read in russian in order for you to understand his essence. the nuances of pushkin do not translate into other languages, at least that is what i think. im glad you like russian lit. kudos to you, man. :)

[aeroport]

I've actually got a book of his "collected stories" which I've been trying to get around to lately. I kind of wanted to wait until I knew Russian to look into him, but I actually heard that he is one of the easier Russians to translate, so I was less concerned. I'm sure it's far superior in the original anyway, regardless.

[Boris239]

My native language is Russian, so I can appreciate Pushkin in original. It's not very surprising that he is not as widely known outside of Russian as let's say Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. In Russia he is considered the greatest partly because of his great influence on the Russian language. He wasn't, of course, the first Russian poet, but if you read some 18th century poets, the language there was completely different. His poems , as evereybody said, are not translated easily(true for all poetry), so it's difficult for a foreigner to appreciate the beauty. Personally, Pushkin is not my favorite Russian poet- I like Lermontov or Gumilev much more, but a lot of people told me that you appreciate his poetry more and more, as you become older.
Superunknow was telling about "Eugene Onegin", but there is also a lot of other things by Pushkin that are worth reading: Belkin Stories( 5 or 6 short stories), Captain's daughter, Queen of Spades and Poltava, and a lot of other stuff.

[Turk]

I don't think Pushkin is important for universal literature as Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy. It's important for Russian literature because he's a pioneer for Russian literature. Let's say Goethe of Russia. But that doesn't mean he's great FOR world literature. His effect was limited, if you compare him great Dostoyevsky's effect on world literature you understand what am i trying to say.

Btw, as i see there's few Russian people, i want to ask if any of you knows Ilf, Petrov, Zozula or Leonid Lenç?

[Thorwench]

Well, Turk, I don't know, there are for instance a few great operas based on Pushkin like Eugen Onegin or Pique Dame exactly for the reason that his storylines and their realisation are so dramatic and, like in Pique Dame, not only psychologically fascinating but also quite mysterious. They have been great movie adaptations especially of "children's poems". I personally adore the Tsar Saltan fairy tale which may be available in Russian since you can get it in a remastered German version (i.e. German dubbing). The characters in the movie speak in Pushkin's rhymes and the entire thing is beautifully done, so if anyone is interested try to get it. It's really worth it.

[Turk]

I didn't say Pushkin is worthless, i just explain why Pushkin is not well known out of Russia.

[Boris239]

Turk, to be Goethe of Russia is not that bad. After allk evrybody has read some Goethe- at least "Faust". Nobody says that Pushkin's influence on world literature can e compared to Dostoevsky's.
And I've read Ilf and Petrov's "12 Chairs" and "Golden Calf". Both of them are absolutely hilarious.

[Turk]

Turk, to be Goethe of Russia is not that bad. After allk evrybody has read some Goethe- at least "Faust". Nobody says that Pushkin's influence on world literature can e compared to Dostoevsky's.
And I've read Ilf and Petrov's "12 Chairs" and "Golden Calf". Both of them are absolutely hilarious.

I didn't say to be Goethe of Russia is bad, i just wanted to mean that's why he's not so famous out of Russia. Think it; Goethe is not famous as other German poets-novelists such as Thomass Mann or Kafka too. Why? Because he's older and yeah let's be honest he's not that good, i mean while there are Thomas Mann, Hermann Hesse or Kafka, why people would read Goethe? I'm not neglecting importance of Goethe or Pushkin, but it's truth. They are important because they are pioneers, that's all.

On the other hand you say Goethe known more than Pushkin, but don't forget while Russia is Eastern, Germany is Western. If Pushkin would be German or English, he would known more, it's truth, i agree that. In Turkey, we have very good poets and writers such as Attila İlhan or Oğuz Atay, but they are unknown out of Turkey. Why? Because it's a world dominated by Western culture.

Anyway... And i noticed something, someone says Nabokov is part of Russian literature. No, it's not right. Nabokov is a Russian who wrote in English, so he's a part of English literature.

And yeah, btw, i asked Lenç, Petrov, Ilf and Zozula, is anyone have their short stories in English? I really want to read these authors more, but it's almost impossible to find their books in Turkey.

Because they are not well known out of Russia. :brow: :)

[Boris239]

Nabokov has written not only in English but in Russian too, so he can be considered part of both.
I would imagine that "12 chairs" is translated into English, so it's probably possible to find it.

[Turk]

Well, true, but only his first works was Russian. His major works were in English. Don't worry buddy, you still have Dostoyevsky, one of best 3 novelists of all times. If we call Nabokov Russian, we should call Joseph Conrad as Polish. And Ilya Ehrenburg would be Jewish. For example greatest poet of all times; Mawlana Jalal Ad-Din is also racially Turkish but he wrote his books in Persian, so he's a part of Persian literature.

12 Chair s also translated in Turkish. I actually want some short stories, particulary humour stories of Zozula. Thx for your interest.

[Logos]

I have seen some references to Pushkin as "Russia's Bard", surely putting him up there with Shakespeare, the English Bard. Maybe because he was born into a long line of old Russian nobility, but he was born (1799) and started writing early (first publication 1814) in the 19th century, long before Lermontov, Turgenev, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Gorky, and Gogol etc. were born or were published, so he does have some claim to being an `original' or pioneer. See below links..
http://www1.umn.edu/lol-russ/hpgary/Russ3421/lesson4.htm
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pushkin.html
http://cr.middlebury.edu/public/russian/Bulgakov/public_html/ASPushkin.html
http://www.odessaglobe.com/english/people/pushkin.htm

Recently his name has been tainted by scandal that he was hoarding pornographic materials. Other than that it's a great article:
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=114352005

Does the westernisation of the Russian alphabet have anything to do with lack of translations or the difficulty in doing so? My understanding of partly why Pushkin (and some others in Russian Lit) aren't as popular as others is because of the vernacular speech they used, local idioms and sayings/terms/words not even common to other parts of the country, making translations to English awkward when there aren't really existing words/terms to use in their place. Pushkin wrote much of the southern Caucasus and Crimean regions/cultures when he was forced into exile there, far away from Moscow or St. Petersburg. He also wrote some works in French before translating them to Russian, furthermore complicating matters of translation to English.

While Onegin is originally about a 100 page document, Vladimir Nabakov's translation to English became a 4 volume work! trying to get across all the complexities and nuance of the Russian original. Nabokov is credited with furthering the west's appreciation and accessing of Pushkin's work, but of course he has fiercly criticised other's translations. I agree though until I can read Russian who am I to imagine I have a good grasp of Russian literary works?

[jon1jt]

Pushkin's no Dostoevsky.

[Idril]

Pushkin's no Dostoevsky.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that he is. They have completely different writing styles, it's like comparing apples and oranges. I haven't read a great deal of his poetry, I tend to stick to his short stories but he has a such lyrical quality, even in translation that I just love, I can't even imagine how much more pronouced that quality in his native language. He can say so much with so few words, he can paint such a clear picture of people and events without pages and pages of description, they may be considered short stories yet they can span the same scope as a 300+ page book because there's nothing superfluous in the story telling at all and unlike so many great Russian writers, he never goes off on tangents. ;)

[superunknown]

Pushkin's no Dostoevsky.
They're totally different, but I know for a fact that Dostoevsky himself (as well as pretty much every Russian writer) considered Pushkin's talents far more advanced than his. Anyway, Dostoevsky was a novelist and Pushkin was a poet and dramatist, so it's like comparing T.S. Eliot to James Joyce (except in that example the novelist influenced the poet/dramatist rather than vice-versa). And besides, you can't make a statement like that until you read Pushkin in Russian. And without Pushkin there wouldn't have been Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Turgenev, (possibly) Gogol, Chekhov, Lermontov... Russian lit as we know it would have been totally different.

I put Pushkin and Dostoevsky at the same level really, as when you get to that level of literary merit you can't say who's better. I love Dostoevsky because his mind is totally twisted, just as mine is, but Pushkin's technical skill (roughly 400 sonnets, all with the strange rhyme scheme I mentioned above and all of which flow beautifully? Do you have an idea how astonishing that is?!) as well as storytelling ability are dazzling.

[superunknown]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that he is. They have completely different writing styles, it's like comparing apples and oranges. I haven't read a great deal of his poetry, I tend to stick to his short stories but he has a such lyrical quality, even in translation that I just love, I can't even imagine how much more pronouced that quality in his native language. He can say so much with so few words, he can paint such a clear picture of people and events without pages and pages of description, they may be considered short stories yet they can span the same scope as a 300+ page book because there's nothing superfluous in the story telling at all and unlike so many great Russian writers, he never goes off on tangents. ;)
Doesn't go off on tangents?! You haven't read Eugene Onegin, he goes off ALL the time in that one, but the tangents are the best part sometimes (like the massive 5-page-long creepy foot fetish tangent :D ). It's also not just a random tangent with no purpose but a great literary technique as it gives us the persona of an unreliable narrator who is not only totally biased towards his characters but is sometimes even incompetent as a narrator, as he often goes off and completely forgets the story discussing his foot fetish or which wines he likes most or what ballets he's been to the theater to see lately, getting so wrapped up in tangents that the story happens without him telling us anything. Another cool subtle thing is the recurring motif of waiting for/catching up with the character: he spends some time discussing Eugene's wardrobe and how "he three hours, at the least, / in front of mirrors spent," and by the time he's finished his character has already left, and he says, "we'd better hurry to the ball / whither headlong in a hack coach / already my Onegin has sped off." There's some very interesting narrative quirks in there, and when you think about it this style of narration became very popular in the West in the 20th century, but Pushkin was already doing it nearly 100 years before.

[Idril]

Doesn't go off on tangents?! You haven't read Eugene Onegin, he goes off ALL the time in that one, but the tangents are the best part sometimes (like the massive 5-page-long creepy foot fetish tangent :D ).

I have read it and I really didn't think of those little asides as going off on tangents in the same way that Dostoevsky goes off on tangents, he (Dosteovsky) is the King of tangents. And I honestly have no memory of a 5 page long foot fetish diatribe and you'd think that would be something I'd remember. ;) :lol: I do remember him mentioning feet every now and again but I don't remember 5 pages of it. I will admit there was more of that sort of thing in Eugene Onegin than in his other writings but I really didn't think it was that distracting, they didn't completely take you out of the story the way they so often can.

[bazarov]

And without Pushkin there wouldn't have been Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Turgenev, (possibly) Gogol, Chekhov, Lermontov... Russian lit as we know it would have been totally different.


Dostoevsky's famous quote is: "We have all issued out of Gogol's Cloak."
If Pushkin have had that influence, Fyodor and Tolstoy would be poets and not novelists.


I put Pushkin and Dostoevsky at the same level really, as when you get to that level of literary merit you can't say who's better. I love Dostoevsky because his mind is totally twisted, just as mine is, but Pushkin's technical skill (roughly 400 sonnets, all with the strange rhyme scheme I mentioned above and all of which flow beautifully? Do you have an idea how astonishing that is?!) as well as storytelling ability are dazzling.
:lol: :lol: Yes, Pushkin really is great, The Poor Knight is one of my favorite poems at all.

[superunknown]

Dostoevsky's famous quote is: "We have all issued out of Gogol's Cloak."
If Pushkin have had that influence, Fyodor and Tolstoy would be poets and not novelists.
Ummm.... no. By that logic, Eliot, who was massively influenced by Joyce (he compared Ulysses to one of Einstein's scientific discoveries, saying that like all scientists would have to learn Einstein's theories and put them to use to advance, so writers would have to learn Joyce and use his discoveries), could not possibly have been a poet and must by sheer necessity have been a novelist. Same goes for Samuel Beckett and just about every post-Joyce non-novelist (of which there are many). That's just stupid.

Sure, Dostoevsky might have said that. But here's something else he also said (and a very famous speech it is):

"Pushkin is an extraordinary, perhaps unique, manifestation of the Russian spirit, said Gogol. I will add "and a prophetic manifestation." There is in his life, for all us Russians, something incontestably prophetic... He set down a very gallery of exquisite types drawn from the Russian people. The exquisiteness is in their truth, their positive and undeniable truth. You cannot deny them, they stand as though in stone."

http://www.artrusse.ca/Pushkin/pushkin_en.htm

[Woland]

I love Pushkin

VIII

Всё тот же ль он иль усмирился?
Иль корчит так же чудака?
Скажите, чем он возвратился?
Что нам представит он пока?
Чем ныне явится? Мельмотом,
Космополитом, патриотом,
Гарольдом, квакером, ханжой,
Иль маской щегольнёт иной,
Иль просто будет добрый малый,
Как вы да я, как целый свет?
По крайней мере, мой совет:
Отстать от моды обветшалой.
Довольно он морочил свет...
―Знаком он вам? ― И да и нет.

Brilliant

[bazarov]

I love Pushkin

VIII

Всё тот же ль он иль усмирился?
Иль корчит так же чудака?
Скажите, чем он возвратился?
Что нам представит он пока?
Чем ныне явится? Мельмотом,
Космополитом, патриотом,
Гарольдом, квакером, ханжой,
Иль маской щегольнёт иной,
Иль просто будет добрый малый,
Как вы да я, как целый свет?
По крайней мере, мой совет:
Отстать от моды обветшалой.
Довольно он морочил свет...
―Знаком он вам? ― И да и нет.

Brilliant

I also like Pushkin and for those who can't read this, let see what was Woland trying to say...:lol:


Is this the same man, or has he since softened?
Or does he act the same old freak?
Tell me, does he come here often?
And what character does he play this week?
What is his stage persona? Melmoth?
A cosmopolitan, a patriot,
Childe Harolde, a quaker, or a bigot?
Or does he show off a mask he has brought?
Or perhaps he is just a jolly good sport,
Like you and I, like the world, in short?
My advice is this, if he will take it,
To put aside all that worn out kit.
He has fooled the world more than we can tell..
―So you know him then? ― Ye

[Logos]

I also like Pushkin and for those who can't read this, let see what was Woland trying to say...:lol:

Thanks for the translation! :)

[Boris239]

The English translation is OK, but can't even come close to being as beautiful as the original. Having said thsi, I actually has always liked Lermontov more than Pushkin.

[bazarov]

I don't where had you find those poems, but can you look up for The Poor Knight? Thank you.

[Evi]

I feel so sad reading all the discussion about Puschkin in this thread. I am not Russian and i cant speak this language ( unfortunately for me) so i cant read his works in Russian, but i am lucky enough that all his works have been translated very good in my own language. The translation of Onegin has been made by a woman who is half Greek and half Russian so she made a wonderful job , since she knew both languages by her heart.

Why i am feeling bad? Because Dostoevsky and all the others Russian writers, who i adore and love very much, were his students! People outside Russia only know Tolstoy ( who is great by the way) , Dostoevsky and Gorky.

Turk,

Have you read Eugene Onegin either in Russian either in a good translation in your won language? If yes, then , you cant say that he is famous only because he is a pioneer.

And something else. Just my opinion, but when a writer is writting his novels in a foreign language that doesnt mean that doesnt have the nationality of his own counrty. I know a lot of Greeks artits ( and not only) who work abroad that doesnt mean that they are not Greeks. You never loose your nationality.

Evi

[bazarov]

And something else. Just my opinion, but when a writer is writting his novels in a foreign language that doesnt mean that doesnt have the nationality of his own counrty. I know a lot of Greeks artits ( and not only) who work abroad that doesnt mean that they are not Greeks. You never loose your nationality.

Evi
I agree, many Russian writers left Russia because of political situation like Nabokov, Solzhenycin, Gorky etc.

[Evi]

Mayakofski also lived in USA for many years, but he is Russian. I consider him as a Russian writer and not an American. I love Mayakofski ( hopefully i spell his name correct!)

Evi

[bazarov]

Mayakofski also lived in USA for many years, but he is Russian. I consider him as a Russian writer and not an American. I love Mayakofski ( hopefully i spell his name correct!)

Evi

Mayakovski:)

[Evi]

Bazarov,


Thanks for correcting, i always make mistakes with spelling of the names. :confused:

Evi

[Boris239]

Where have you read abou Mayakovsky living in the US for a long time? He spent some time there, but he definitely lived most of his life in Russia/USSR. I actually can't imagine Mayakovsky being translated. What have you read- his plays or only poems? My grandmother actually lived in the same apartment as Mayakovsky's last love Lilya Brik.
Gorky has spent a while abroad, but still he lived most of his life in Russia.
Nabokov wrote in both English and Russian, and left Russia when he was young, so he can be considered part of both Russian and American literature.

[Evi]

Boris,

The citizenchip can be gained either by birth ( being a Russian -for example -because you have been borned there and your parents are Russian , or at least one of your parents) either becaue you are married to a Russian ( for example) or generally you have applied for a reason for the citizenship.

But the nationality doesnt change. If you want to moove in another country and you can moove ( if you have all the legal documents requested etc) and if the other country ( the foreign one) accepts you, that doesnt mean that you are not the person you were from the nation you came for.

A lot of Greeks emigrated to many countries during the years beacuse of the poverty ( for " a better luck") or because of other reasons. This doesnt stop them being Greeks. ONLY if they wanted to forget their own language they will become something "strange" as the citizens of the new country they wont exactly welcome them at least for the first years!

I have read Mayakofsky when i was younger , many years ago. I remember ( if i am not totaly uncorrect ) that he died in America ( US) That he lived a lot of years there and that he died there. I have to search my books in order to answer you about Mayakofsky.
Evi

[Boris239]

I am sorry to tell you but you are mistaken, and Mayakovsky died in USSR. In fact, his death was very mysterious- although officially he commited suicide, a lot of people suspected some NKVD involvement.
I don't understand what about Nabokov you don't agree with. I am not saying that he stopped being Russian, but because most of his books are written in English, he is part of American literature as well as Russian. And don't worry I know how citizenship is being granted and all about emigration- after all I am one myself.

[Evi]

Boris,

I told you from teh beginning that i am not sure where he died. I have to reread my old book and i will come back with this.

As about Nabokov, i havent said anything bad. I just said that the fact that he is born Russian doesnt change. Doesnt make him American. Nana Muskuri is a famous Greek singer who lived many years in France. French consider her a French value but she is still Greek and she feels Greek.

I am sure you know everything about citizenhsip,sorry if i gave the impression that i wanted "to teach you anything". I was just discussing.

Evi

[bazarov]

Nabokov wrote in both English and Russian, and left Russia when he was young, so he can be considered part of both Russian and American literature.



I don't understand what about Nabokov you don't agree with. I am not saying that he stopped being Russian, but because most of his books are written in English, he is part of American literature as well as Russian.



Boris,

As about Nabokov, i havent said anything bad. I just said that the fact that he is born Russian doesnt change. Doesnt make him American.

Evi



Boris didn't say that Nabokov became an American, he said that he became a part of American literature!

[bazarov]

By A. Pushkin



If I walk the noisy streets,
Or enter a many thronged church,
Or sit among the wild young generation,
I give way to my thoughts.

I say to myself: the years are fleeting,
And however many there seem to be,
We must all go under the eternal vault,
And someone's hour is already at hand.

When I look at a solitary oak
I think: the patriarch of the woods.
It will outlive my forgotten age
As it outlived that of my grandfathers'.

If I caress a young child,
Immediately I think: farewell!
I will yield my place to you,
For I must fade while your flower blooms.


Each day, every hour
I habitually follow in my thoughts,
Trying to guess from their number
The year which brings my death.


And where will fate send death to me?
In battle, in my travels, or on the seas?
Or will the neighbouring valley
Receive my chilled ashes?

And although to the senseless body
It is indifferent wherever it rots,
Yet close to my beloved countryside
I still would prefer to rest.


And let it be, beside the grave's vault
That young life forever will be playing,
And impartial, indifferent nature
Eternally be shining in beauty.

[bazarov]

By Alexander Pushkin


The storm wind covers the sky
Whirling the fleecy snow drifts,
Now it howls like a wolf,
Now it is crying, like a lost child,
Now rustling the decayed thatch
On our tumbledown roof,
Now, like a delayed traveller,
Knocking on our window pane.


Our wretched little cottage
Is gloomy and dark.
Why do you sit all silent
Hugging the window, old gran?
Has the howling of the storm
Wearied you, at last, dear friend?
Or are you dozing fitfully
Under the spinning wheel's humming?


Let us drink, dearest friend
To my poor wasted youth.
Let us drink from grief - Where's the glass?
Our hearts at least will be lightened.
Sing me a song of how the bluetit
Quietly lives across the sea.
Sing me a song of how the young girl
Went to fetch water in the morning.


The storm wind covers the sky
Whirling the fleecy snow drifts
Now it howls like a wolf,
Now it is crying, like a lost child.
Let us drink, dearest friend
To my poor wasted youth.
Let us drink from grief - Where's the glass?
Our hearts at least will be lightened.

[bazarov]

By Pushkin.

If I walk the noisy streets,
Or enter a many thronged church,
Or sit among the wild young generation,
I give way to my thoughts.

I say to myself: the years are fleeting,
And however many there seem to be,
We must all go under the eternal vault,
And someone's hour is already at hand.


When I look at a solitary oak
I think: the patriarch of the woods.
It will outlive my forgotten age
As it outlived that of my grandfathers'.


If I dandle a young infant,
Immediately I think: farewell!
I will yield my place to you,
For I must fade while your flower blooms.

Each day, and every hour
I habitually follow in my thoughts,
Trying to guess from their number
The year which brings my death.


And where will fate send death to me?
In battle, in my travels, or on the seas?
Or will the neighbouring valley
Receive my chilled ashes?


And although to the senseless body
It is indifferent wherever it rots,
Yet close to my beloved countryside
I still would prefer to rest.


And let it be, beside the grave's vault
That young life forever will be playing,
And impartial, indifferent nature
Eternally be shining in beauty.

[Evi]

Bazarov,
Literature doesnt have a citizenship and a nationality after all. Everyone can enjoy ( thanks God for that!) all the books and all the authors. Of course Nabokov is a part of American ( and general) literature. And not only. Tolstoy and Shakespeare etc etc are great authors and they represent all citizens of this world. Maybe my writting is wrong? maybe i dont know English anymore? Whatever i said i have to explain it afterwards not to make a problem. anyway, i dint want io insult anybody people!

Bazarov,
Thank you for the verions. Very beautiful.

evi

[bazarov]

Literature doesnt have a citizenship and a nationality after all. Everyone can enjoy ( thanks God for that!) all the books and all the authorsevi
I agree.


Of course Nabokov is a part of American ( and general) literature. And not only. Tolstoy and Shakespeare etc etc are great authors and they represent all citizens of this world.
Nobody is saying that Nabokov isn't part of American literature, actually that was something that Boris also pointed, but Nabokov is also a part of Russian literature, and he is Russian and only a Russian, no mather of being a part of American literature.


Maybe my writting is wrong? maybe i dont know English anymore? Whatever i said i have to explain it afterwards not to make a problem. anyway, i dint want io insult anybody people!
You're writing is OK, but it seems to me you don't fully understand what was Boris saying. I suggest you to read his posts once again:D


Bazarov,
Thank you for the verions. Very beautiful.

You're welcome.

[d_rebelutionary]

"With a sword he clove my breast
plucked out the heart he made beat higher
and in my stricken bosom pressed
in its stead a coal of living fire"

This is not meticulously stated but spoken truly from the top of my head.
I took this poem and I feel it describes my unspoken philosophies about the human character. I will speak of them once I know the words to describe how much I love Pushkin. I do not know when that day will come.
:banana:

[bazarov]

This one of my favorite poems...


The Poor Knight
(A.S. Pushkin)

There was once a poor knight living
All alone in the wide world;
His appearance grim and livid,
But his spirit true and bold.

He once saw a saintly vision,
Something dazzling he did see,
And profoundly the impression
Cut into his memory.

For Geneva bound, he tarried
By the road; beside a cross
He beheld the Virgin Mary,
Mother of the Holy Christ.

Since that time, his soul on fire,
He at females never glanced;
Til his dying day drew nigher,
Didn’t address them ever once.

Since that time, an iron lattice
Never lifted from his face –
And the scarf gone – where the neck is,
Hung a rosary in its place.

To take prayers to the Father,
Or the Spirit, or the Son,
Was, it being an odd thing rather,
Something he had never done.

He would spend his nights entire
Bowed before the Virgin’s brow,
Weeping quietly – with dire
Tears, that melancholy flow.

Full of faith, enamored dearly
Of his pious dream, with blood
Ave, Mater Dei clearly
He inscribed upon his shield.

While the cavalry of errants
Through the Palestinian plains
Ran at trembling adversaries,
Calling the beloved names,

Lumen coelum, sancta rosa!
He called louder than the rest,
As the Muslim threats came closer
To his head from every nest.

Then, returning to his castle,
Lived, with no one by his side.
Still enamored, still bedazzled,
Uncommunioned he died.

As he readied to expire,
Lo, the Evil Spirit came.
Keen to, as the time drew nigher,
Drag his soul into His realm.

Saying, he has said no prayers.
Saying, he has held no fast;
And not properly made passes
At the mother of the Christ,

But the Holy Virgin pleaded
For his soul before the King,
Letting into Heaven’s kingdom
Her beloved paladin.


Translated by Genia Gurarie

Sended to PM by jersey_bird.

[Newcomer]

An interesting site for discussions of Eugene Onegin is the Russian Literature Message Board
mb.sparknotes.com/mb.epl?b=60&m=541949&f=1&p=2&t=161602#541949

[aeroport]

Bazarov,
Literature doesnt have a citizenship and a nationality after all. Everyone can enjoy ( thanks God for that!) all the books and all the authors. Of course Nabokov is a part of American ( and general) literature. And not only. Tolstoy and Shakespeare etc etc are great authors and they represent all citizens of this world.

Well, yes, more or less. I can agree with the latter part of this, but, quite honestly, I am increasingly unsure about translated literature. (This is why I signed up for Russian in college - only to be disappointed in finding that my university has not been offering it for a few years...:mad: ) I only say this because there are a few things - granted only a few, but still - that I simply cannot imagine in translation. One of these is Finnegan's Wake; another is Late James. I'll let the former go, as it is totally unreasonable in English alone (I doubt people are confident enough in reading it, let alone translating!), and there are so many made-up words that it scarcely matters anyway, but the James does present an issue for me, as there is simply no limit to the sheer number of words the man knew, which brings me to the number of words in the English language itself. It is perhaps slightly unfair to point out that it is well over twice as vast as any other language (save perhaps Russian, which I'll come back to momentarily), as it is the very nature of the language to assimilate foreign words; yet it is still a concern that a translated work which does its best to capture the narrative but (necessarily) loses a great deal of the connotation and subtext is almost a total waste of the reader's time. Fortunately, I know English and need not worry about a translation with James, but I worry about similar problems with Russian literature. The impression I get is that Russian has a more or less equal number of words to English. And while this might make English translations of Russian literature somewhat simpler than, say, German or French translations, it still seems that the nature of the words themselves is largely different. (I vaguely recall hearing a joke once about "the Russian word for 'sitting on a rock at night, watching the sea...under the stars...quietly' ", or something like that. A mighty verb, I must say. :lol: )

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying amounts to a questioning of whether all literature really can be enjoyed by all literate people. Is there really any point to reading translated literature if it is unable to reproduce the subtleties that can actually give the work its meaning? Just curious what people think. This actually might apply more to poetry, though...

[Newcomer]

“Literature doesn't have a citizenship and a nationality after all.” Nor a unique sensibility of the human condition expressed in a particular language. Transference from the author to the reader is an approximation. Time and experience changes the denotation of words. To the question of “Is there really any point to reading translated literature if it is unable to reproduce the subtleties that can actually give the work its meaning?”, I would ask – to what degree?
Surely you would not maintain that two Russian speakers, one brought up in a hellhole and a Nabakov would derive the same understanding or pleasure from Eugene Onegin?
Onegin has been transferred to opera (Tchaikovsky), to film ( director, Martha Fiennes), to ballet (Cranko) and all to some degree lost the uniqueness of the original. The Russians being particularly scatting in criticism of the foreign productions. And the translations whether the scholarly Nabakov or the versification by Douglas Hofstadter, the rhyming version by Charles Johnson or the James E. Falen's translation must pale to the original. But would we not be impoverished had these attempts not been made?
What of the fragments of Sappho? The archaic Greek is not understood even by the contemporary Greeks. What of the Iliad and Odyssey where the consciousness of self has radically changed? Should we dismiss these translations and loose the perspective offered because we can not recapture the original?
To the question,” whether all literature really can be enjoyed by all literate people”, I would answer “Well, yes, more or less.”

[bazarov]

Well, yes, more or less. I can agree with the latter part of this, but, quite honestly, I am increasingly unsure about translated literature. (This is why I signed up for Russian in college - only to be disappointed in finding that my university has not been offering it for a few years...:mad: )

I have finally successfully signed up for my Russian classes:banana: Really nice language.

[Boris239]

Congratulations, Baz! If you need any help, fell free to ask.

[bazarov]

Congratulations, Baz! If you need any help, fell free to ask.

Thanks!
It's really nice, but our dear Olga doesn't know any Croatian, so I am glad that my English serves me well!:D

[Erichtho]

I had read some shorter prose works and The Captain's Daughter in German and wondered what was so great about Pushkin. It was only when I bought a poetry selection in Russian and started to read it that I caught a glimpse of Pushkin's greatness, even though my Russian is unfortunately less-than-desirable albeit years of studies (I guess I have no talent when it comes to languages :(). Eugen Onegin is one of my reading gaps I'm most ashamed of and I hope one day I shall be able to read it in original.


...but, quite honestly, I am increasingly unsure about translated literature.

I share your sentiments, and especially poetry is actually impossible to be translated (and Russian is such a wonderful language for poetry!). Unfortunately even if we can speak a couple of languages and are able to read in them the vast majority of literature will always only be accessible for us through translations, so we are doomed to either stick to our national literatures (which would be such a loss) or to depend on hopefully good translations.



[...] It is perhaps slightly unfair to point out that it is well over twice as vast as any other language (save perhaps Russian, which I'll come back to momentarily), as it is the very nature of the language to assimilate foreign words; yet it is still a concern that a translated work which does its best to capture the narrative but (necessarily) loses a great deal of the connotation and subtext is almost a total waste of the reader's time. Fortunately, I know English and need not worry about a translation with James, but I worry about similar problems with Russian literature. The impression I get is that Russian has a more or less equal number of words to English. And while this might make English translations of Russian literature somewhat simpler than, say, German or French translations, it still seems that the nature of the words themselves is largely different. (I vaguely recall hearing a joke once about "the Russian word for 'sitting on a rock at night, watching the sea...under the stars...quietly' ", or something like that. A mighty verb, I must say. :lol: )

Can you give me any source for your claim that English and Russian have more words than German and French? I'm highly sceptical of that (and can actually not see a great advantage because I imagine the active and passive vocabulary of a person, be it an English or French native speaker, to be around the same size.


Anyway, I guess what I'm saying amounts to a questioning of whether all literature really can be enjoyed by all literate people. Is there really any point to reading translated literature if it is unable to reproduce the subtleties that can actually give the work its meaning? Just curious what people think. This actually might apply more to poetry, though...

Of course there is a point in reading translated literature! Literature gives an insight into minds and cultures that no other medium can offer, and even though one might not be able to judge the literary value it, the experience is still worth every page of it. How difficult a translation is depends of course on how closely the two languages are related, whether we are talking about prose, drama or poetry, how many slang or dialect words there are included, etc..
No translation can have all subtle nuances of the original, usually there are two ideals for a translator: to reproduce
1) the content or
2) the mood and style as exactly as possible.

2) is usually in the focus of translators of literary works, because this is of course what literature is in essence, but one always has to cut back...

My 0.02$.

[sinopound]

I like Pushkin's To A.P.Kern


I remember a wonderful moment
As before my eyes you appeared,
Like a vision, fleeting, momentary,
Like a spirit of the purest beauty.

In the torture of hopeless melancholy,
In the bustle of the world's noisy hours,
That voice rang out so tenderly,
I dreamed of that lovely face of yours.

The years flew quickly. The storm's blast
Scattered the dreams of former times,
And I forgot your tender voice,
And the features of your heavenly face.

In remoteness, in gloomy isolation,
My days dragged quietly, nothing was new,
No godlike face, no inspiration,
No tears, no life, no love, no you.

Then to my soul an awakening came,
And there again your face appeared,
Like a vision, fleeting, momentary,
Like a spirit of the purest beauty.

And my heart beat with a rapture new,
And for its sake arose again
A godlike face, an inspiration,
And life, and tears, and love, and you.

Very neat and its content is minute, the feelings strong.

If only I could have someone write such a poem for me.