Pictures of Prophets; where do we got them?

[Goodfella]

Hello,
I had already stated it in my last post in this Forum that I don't specifically have any connection with any paricular religion for atleast discussion in this Forum. So, don't please misunderstand me and think I'm sided, ok? This is an issue that probably you too don't have a full compherension on. This is:

Since when I was in school. I once asked our teacher, where does christian got the picture of Jesus, while I have never(up to this time) see Muslims with Muhammad's picture. The point here is; Muhammad existed after Jesus, thus, if it's civilisation that brought it, this should have come during Muhammad, since it's always on develop as time goes.

Suprisingly enough, not only Jesus's picture is with Christian but also his mother's. What a suprise thing?

Please Logos, understand my point well. I'm afraid or I insult one side.

[Nightwalk]

Interesting question Goodfella. Perhaps it's because of the West's penchant for iconography and portraiture that we have numerous images of Jesus and Mary. If I'm not mistaken the Arab world ( especially at the time ) did not share this enthusiasm so perhaps that's why there is no existing image of Muhammad. Or maybe there was, but perhaps suppressed or long lost.

[Thorwench]

If I remember correctly (please correct me if wrong) the main reason for the absence of pictures of Mohammed is that Islam prohibits (or prohibited pictorial representation of humans). That's why old Arab art, like the arabesque, is floral or geometric or artistic representation of scripture. I am not sure about animals.
Christian art also shows some funny misrepresentation. Moses is often shown with little horns because of a faulty translation of Biblical texts. Later on they realised the mistake but kept the horns because they had become iconographic features.

[Shield&Sword]

Its true that drawing creatures with soul is not allowed in islam. Beside we cant draw Muhammed or Jesus or Moses or Abraham or any other prophet peace be upon them all for respecting them and honoring them, and that we dont limit thier shapes in our minds because we honor them alot as pure handsome men. Describtion of prophet Muhammed pbuh we got it, his face his body every detail, but for us following prophet Muhammed pbuh is not by putting his image in our cars or in houses because it wont mean any thing, but in behaiving like him and follow every order he ordered us, and if Allah wants if we do so we will see his beutiful face in other other life, not his face only but face of Jesus and all other prophets peace be upon them all.

Tried not to write in forum because of my study :blush: but when it depend in islam i cant stay away :)

[aeroport]

Well, once a friend of mine, who was planning to study art history, told me he had read that long hair was simply the way renaissance artists did things, so Jesus wound up as a long-haired fella. I have no idea, myself, but I did find a somewhat interesting site about the matter of Jesus's image:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282186.html?page=2&c=y

[muhsin]

Hello guys,
I really appreciated this kind of question you ask goodfella. That is how everybody is supposed to do; ask when we don't know, don't just misjudge.

Well, to your question, we Muslims completely condemn this act of drawing pictures of livingthings, particularly humanbeings. So. don't ever be suprised by not seeing Prophet Muhammad's (SAW) picture.

Moreover. All these drawings of jesus are not truely his.
Thanks and Ramadan Kareem to our fellow Muslims

[subterranean]

Moreover. All these drawings of jesus are not truely his.


Hello, muhsin. Please elaborate more on your above statement.

[Nightshade]

Actually Ive always belived that we dont have pictures of the prophets particullaly even when well bend the rules about other living things - if youve lived in the arab world and seen the cartoon prophets and messangers that comes on in Ramadan- is because well I was taught that the preislamic I dont know the english term idol worshipers(? ) didnt actually worship the stautes r rather the statues werent actually their gods.
Rather originally the statues were of faithful honest good men and theywere eracted as symbols to remind people to be good but over time they increased in importance and people began to pray to the ghosts of these dead people to interced with God /gods for them. And they prayed to the statue as a channel for the spirt of these people to help them gain I guess merit points with god.

And the reason we dont have pictures/ physical representation of the prophets/meesangers is becasue how easy would it be for all this to happen again? So to avoid anyone taking pictures as a religious symbol of God/ an exctention of God and His power we just dont have them.
The actaual meaning of the word "shurk" is rooted in to share meaning partnered in this case the glory of God and it is shurk that is absaloutly utteruy forbidden in islam and as I just said the theory is pictures of holy people and prophets could lead to the slippy road to shurk.
:)

[muhsin]

Hello, muhsin. Please elaborate more on your above statement.

That's how I was told by one of my mallams teachers.
But, I too have many reasons, which if I tell you now it will be off topic. If i get chance, I'll post a new fresh topic with this topic. Right?

[miss tenderness]

Do Christians believe that these drawings represent the real image of Jesus,pbuh? just curious..

[subterranean]

Well, there are many different versions of Jesus' image.

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/image_gallery.htm

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20051219/jesus_his.html

[ShoutGrace]

Do Christians believe that these drawings represent the real image of Jesus,pbuh? just curious..


I don't. :D

Though I do like my Jesus completely blonde haired, blue eyed and perfectly manicured. ;)

[subterranean]

I don't. :D

Though I do like my Jesus completely blonde haired, blue eyed and perfectly manicured. ;)

Manicured? Like a lady-boy? :D

[ShoutGrace]

No, like a divinely conspired angel who can't be bothered with such things as hangnails and dirty hair. :D

[Goodfella]

Well, there are many different versions of Jesus' image.

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/image_gallery.htm

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20051219/jesus_his.html

Subterranean, what that got to do with the question asked by misstenderness? Just lets know your position toward that, ok?

[subterranean]

Well Goodfella, my answer is simple, which drawings Miss T referring to? I posted the links as a hint that there are many drawings depicting Jesus' image. Was she referring to all of those drawings?

[ShoutGrace]

Subterranean, what that got to do with the question asked by misstenderness? Just lets know your position toward that, ok?

Wow. Amazing . . . just two sentences. So much to work with here. :D

Your first question is painfully lacking credibility. It only takes a few moments of directed thought to divine how subterranean’s post could possibly relate to the question asked by miss tenderness. In addition to providing clarity, subterranean’s post also implied a small insight into her possible answer.

It had everything to do with the question asked.

Your second question could be taken as mildly insulting, in that it implies that subterranean is necessarily a Christian. miss tenderness’ question was directed towards Christians, and was a question meant to be answered by Christians. In putting forth that illuminating post in the manner that she did, subterranean tactfully avoiding this issue entirely. In addition, by saying that you only want to be made aware of subterranean’s position in such a strict formula, you besmirch the natural legitimacy of the post she did take the time to furnish.

I, for one, found no problem with what subterranean posted and in fact was looking forward to observing the thoughts that miss tenderness, and others, would have in relation to it.

[miss tenderness]

Take it easy ,all of you, plz. Sub, thanks indeed for the links, they opened my mind on new things concerning Jesus,pbuh,particularly concerning his image. I got the feeling that these drawings are merely paintings showing the Christian belief but not intended in the first place to show how Jesus,pbuh, truly looked like. I just find it disgraceful, if you consider Jesus as a God, to draw such drawings to represent him, excuse me for saying so, I just frankly tell you the way I felt without any intention for insult whatsoever.
ShoutGrace's answer is just what I wanted but I also appreciate Sub's .Still I want to hear from Sub,I'll be thankful if she does, if all Christians agree with ShoutGrace when he says that he doesn't believe that these pictures do represent Jesus as he was.
Again, we are just discussing things ,let's be moderate and calm:) I asked the question out of curiostity and I do not want it to provoke anyone.

[subterranean]

Take it easy ,all of you, plz. Sub, thanks indeed for the links, they opened my mind on new things concerning Jesus,pbuh,particularly concerning his image.

You are welcome. And don’t worry, I do take this easily :) .


I got the feeling that these drawings are merely paintings showing the Christian belief but not intended in the first place to show how Jesus,pbuh, truly looked like.

I see that you share the same opinion with the statement written in the Religion Facts gallery. But I personally think Jesus Christ is after all, the foundation and the center of Christian belief.


I just find it disgraceful, if you consider Jesus as a God, to draw such drawings to represent him, excuse me for saying so, I just frankly tell you the way I felt without any intention for insult whatsoever.

I understand your point here, which I think, finds its basis on your personal belief. But if you asked me, do I think these drawings can be considered as an act of disgraceful towards Jesus? No. To me, His graceful existence and authority as God remains even there are billions of man made drawings of His image. The issue of “disgraceful” related to other people’s opinion or expressions on Jesus' image doesn't fit me. However, I may have personal interest to certain images based on their artistic side or historical backgrounds.


ShoutGrace's answer is just what I wanted but I also appreciate Sub's .Still I want to hear from Sub,I'll be thankful if she does, if all Christians agree with ShoutGrace when he says that he doesn't believe that these pictures do represent Jesus as he was.

Well, ShoutGrace entitles to his own opinion and each and every Christian entitles to his/her own opinion. The fact here is that not all Christians in this world agree with ShoutGrace and I don’t see why this should be considered as an issue.

If you want my plain answer, then my answer is no, I don’t as there’s no Biblical reference can be found related to Jesus’ image. But why, if there’s no such reference can be found, there are still many different images on Jesus’ look? I think the article from Discovery can be referred to answer the question:


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs...jesus_his.html
While Hirschfeld does not know precisely what influenced early artists' notion of what biblical figures looked like, he said, "It is reasonable to assume that artists who originally depicted Jesus had some kind of 'historical memory' of his character."


In this case, historical memory is used as the basis to depict Jesus’ image. And there’s other drawing which is based on scientific analysis. So scientists (who might be Christians) have their own version of Jesus’ image, artist/painters/sculptures (who might also be Christ followers) have their own version, ShoutGrace (who most likely a Christian) is not really in to this image version thingy :)…and this situation is perfectly fine for me.

[Bita]

Its true that drawing creatures with soul is not allowed in islam.

How come? I am a Muslim and I never knew that. What I was told and taught was that the Prophets and God must not be visualised with images but rather with words - but other "creatures with soul"???
(I thought here was a picture of pro. Muhammad aged 14 (not yet a prophet) drwan by a christian priest?)

Anyways - people like to visualise their heros (be it Jesus or a national hero) as beautiful human beings: and that depends alot on what is considered "beautiful" in a particular time and place. Basically depends on what looks are in fashion.
;)

[Amra]

Bita,

The prohibition is based on these hadiths:

Abdullah bin Masood reported that the Prophet (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “ Image makers will be most severely punished by Allah on the day of resurrection” [Bukhari]. Abu Huraira reported I heard the Prophet saying, "Allah said, 'Who are most unjust than those who try to create something like My creation? I challenge them to create even a smallest ant, a wheat grain or a barley grain." The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture”.

[miss tenderness]

How he look like is not a big deal, the holy Qura'an gives a high and graceful description for Jeuse's morality, piety and character. There are many many verses telling his and his mother's,virgin Mary, story . How she gets pregnant and the difficulties she faces and then how he speaks in his cradle and then the blesses that he was given by his Creator to support his message e.g. to give life for the deads,etc….
Talking about the way he looks, there is a very beautiful description said by prophet Mohammad ,pbuh, descriping Jesus Christ, his hair and height .I'll try to find the exact text(hadith)as I'm very careful when reporting a holy text.

[Bita]

Bita,

The prohibition is based on these hadiths:

Abdullah bin Masood reported that the Prophet (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “ Image makers will be most severely punished by Allah on the day of resurrection” [Bukhari]. Abu Huraira reported I heard the Prophet saying, "Allah said, 'Who are most unjust than those who try to create something like My creation? I challenge them to create even a smallest ant, a wheat grain or a barley grain." The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture”.

Amra - thankyou for the reply.

But I have this question: Can we find a similar statement in the holy quran? Surely God would not forget to metion this! As you know important issues in Islam are repeated several times in the Quran. I am reading the Quran in this holy month and I am also reading the translation so I will be on the look-out. :idea:

In my view art can be like a kind of prayer: because one looks much more closely to the creations and then thinks of the one who created all. Of course we humans have the unfortunate habit of idolising anything and anybody (Is this because we feel so empty and small - that we cling to anything?), but by focusing on God and directing all our actions and thoughts in that direction we can minimise the risk.

[Bita]

This story of Jesus reminds me of a story: A Nigerian guy said (on a forum like this) that when he was a child and they would go to church and they all had to stand up infront of a white mans image (jesus) and there were images of dark evil creatures (depicting Hell I suppose). He said he hated it and he never really liked being a christian because he didn't want to worship a white guy etc ... he was really passionate about it, but I think his passion and anger was justified. Of course Christianity is not about white men - though some do say that christianity was used to justify colonisation.
Anyways I am getting lost: what I mean is that depicting a prophet has this kind of problems!

[miss tenderness]

Can we find a similar statement in the holy quran? Surely God would not forget to metion this! As you know important issues in Islam are repeated several times in the Quran.
Dear Bita, I'm sure that you know that Hadith is as holy as the Quran. The prophet Mohammad's sayings are the 2nd source of Sharia or Islam. There are many things that the Quran gives just guidelines and the Sunnah, hadith, elaborated ,such as the way of wudo or ablution and many other basic things in our deen. Allah, swt, says"whatever the messenger of Allah says do, then do and whatever he says do not do, then don't" my humble translation for the verse. Why we have to follow whatever the messenger ordered us to do? Because his orders are simply Allah's orders. Thus to underestimates the prophet's saying and think that they are not sufficient is not appropriate, of course after taking into consideration the levels of the hadith.

[ShoutGrace]

ShoutGrace's answer is just what I wanted but I also appreciate Sub's .Still I want to hear from Sub,I'll be thankful if she does, if all Christians agree with ShoutGrace when he says that he doesn't believe that these pictures do represent Jesus as he was.


I don't think all Christians agree with me, though I can't imagine how anybody would consider a painting, image, or representation of Jesus to be accurate to any degree. There can't be any specificity as far as that is concerned. We simply cannot say with any confidence that we know the way Jesus of Nazareth looked.

We can't specifically describe any of his features. We can (and do) assume generalities.



Again, we are just discussing things ,let's be moderate and calm:) I asked the question out of curiostity and I do not want it to provoke anyone.


It's too bad, then, that you cannot dictate the way other people will respond. :D



However, I may have personal interest to certain images based on their artistic side or historical backgrounds.


I find it interesting to imagine what Jesus would have looked like. It's kind of a fun endeavor . . . but I restrict it to just that. Any image that I take a fancy to or personally delight in is merely a reflection of my wants, and doesn't signify any real knowldege of what I think Jesus looked like (as I have absolutely know way of knowing.)



If you want my plain answer, then my answer is no, I don’t as there’s no Biblical reference can be found related to Jesus’ image.


There are a few, or perhaps maybe one, depending on how you look at it. There is a verse in Revelations which describes Jesus' feet as being "bronze." This would certainly seem evident as he was a Semite. All other Scriptural references are vague at best (as far as I know).

[subterranean]

There are a few, or perhaps maybe one, depending on how you look at it. There is a verse in Revelations which describes Jesus' feet as being "bronze." This would certainly seem evident as he was a Semite. All other Scriptural references are vague at best (as far as I know).


Suppose it is only a form of symbolism. Like in Daniel's propechies, things like clay, bronze, silver, actually represents nations of the world. But I'll need to check it out first before giving further comment. Thanks, SG :).

[Thorwench]

There are quite a few people (not me though) who believe the shroud of Turin to be genuine, given that belief you would have a genuine image of Jesus as left on the shroud. However, the blond, blue eyed and healthy looking Jesus is an image that comes with modernity. The point of depicting Jesus in Christian art was not so much a point of depicting for its own sake but was a way to tell the story i.e. to spread and to itinerate the faith. Many people, especially in the middle ages were neither able to read (including almost all nobles) nor were their particularly fluent in Latin, i.e. they couldn't even understand the preaching in church. Depicting Jesus and scenes from the Bible was a common and apt way to still tell the story. At different times, different interpretations of Jesu "role" where given, thus shifting the expression and subjects of the images. In one period the suffering, the pain, the humanity of Jesus were emphasised (e.g. Gruenewald, Master H.W.) in another it was his innocence and the relationship to and the pain of Mary (Madonnae, Pietas, my favourites are Raphael and Michelangelo here). They were not images per se but had a narrative and an emotional message. I am not particularly Christian myself (although I happily live in Christian tradition) but the sorry fact that Europe's masses have been illiterate for so long has left us with the most beautiful and most touching treasure of art there ever was. And if modern artists have other ideas I am happy to look at them and to contemplate their story. I can find no disgracefulness in any of these.

[Shield&Sword]

Scuse me Bita i didnt answer you, i was working these 2 days :bawling: must pay university and room. But sis Amra and Miss answered you enough. Images of living things are forbidden, but there are hadeeths that show of these images are on things that we use to stand on or to sit on then they ae not forbidden, any way better to leave them all that way we will be without doubt:) .
about Jesus, as i know that these images doesnt reppresent Jesus, because Jews are not with blue eyes and blond hair, the image of Jesus is more like a Roman person (who lived at time of Jesus) because they were with blue eyes and so on things. Thats reminded me with syrian people, alot of them look like europian people, also muslims, i heared that are in such shape because the Romans were there and they mixed with arab's blood.
I want to ask something, why always Jesus is blond with blue eyes? i saw Muhammed Ali film (i dont watch them any more), he said: "for sure i am not going to pray to blond hair with blue eyes Jesus" , and thats raised a point for me, do drowings of Jesus (blond hair and blue eyes) are also a form of racism? because for sure Jesus didnt have an europian form, but a jews form which is more close to arabic and asian forms, with all these facts west still insist to draw Jesus as an eurpian, and they spread these images in all world. In other words: do images of Jesus are images of what western people wanted and not what facts say? If we ask why images of Jesus are not of a person with little eyes, they will respond that he wasnt Japanese, and this is fact, and if we ask why Jesus is blond they say these images are not really for him they are immagination, why we can immagine that he is blond with blue eyes like Romans, while when we immagine him as an african or far east person they use the words : "he wasnt black or with little eyes", they "forget" he is not blond with blue eyes also.Interesting, i think its relaited all to history of Romans through ages begining with time of Jesus.

[Virgil]

Romans were not blonde and blue eyed.

[subterranean]

Shield&Sword, please see some of the images in the link I provided earlier

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/image_gallery.htm


Do you see any of the images depicting a man with blonde hair and blue eyes?

[muhsin]

Subterranean, what that got to do with the question asked by misstenderness? Just lets know your position toward that, ok?

Goodfella, I don't understand? Which side you are specifically? It seems as we're together. This reply depict something of this nature.

[Shield&Sword]

Yes Romans were blond with blue eyes see thier old drawings, and if they werent it will be worst, because through ages they changed the form of face to fit the europian shape and didnt mantain the tipic Jews shape which will the closest to Fact, as i think its matter of history not matter of loving Jesus, the exciting thing is that they succeded in putting these drawings in all people's minds no matter thier nation, and no one said: "Jesus wasnt blond with blue eyes he was Jews, and we want truth as its not the without changes".
I am only wondering, because if you ask any person in all world how Jesus looked he wont say he looked like Jews, he will say he is blond with blue eyes. In all churchs you wont see images of Jesus as jews but blond with blue eyes and i am wondering why, in vatican the church that Jesus built it as its writen you will see Jesus 100% Roman shape, in all churchs Jesus is blond with blue eyes, the form of face differ from church to church but it will be always a form of the tipical europian shape. Now if i want to draw Jesus as a black or Latin or Asian person on walls of vatican church will they accept? even as Jews (and it will be the closest image that i can draw for Jesus, because he was 100% Jews, in other words the closest image to truth) will they accept (he will be close to Arabs)? If not why?
Out of topic: Even angles are are blond or red hair (and its not soft but its like circles) with europian face shape, when i see them i remember the old greek legends, you see the hero always blond with hair like little circles.
Again i say, I think its all relaited to history and what the white man wanted through ages.

[Virgil]

Yes Romans were blond with blue eyes see thier old drawings, and if they werent it will be worst, because through ages they changed the form of face to fit the europian shape and didnt mantain the tipic Jews shape which will the closest to Fact,
Look I agree artists generated images of Jesus from their imagination and it is likely they projected their cultural resemblances on to the image. But Romans were not blonde and blue eyed. Romans were mediterranian people. I'm of Italian descent and just about all Italians have dark hair and dark eyes. Nordic people tend to be blonde and blue eyed. So I don't know what Roman drawings you are referring to, but the ones I've seen have dark haired people.

[Shield&Sword]

Virgil, all your problem is that Romans weren't blond and dark hair, ok they are not. Italian are mixed to be more specific, there are blond, dark hair, and so on, but they got the tipical form of europian even thse with dark hair, believe me i know them very well, beside the fact that iatlians are dark hair doesnt mean any thing, they tried perhaps to make him a handsome blond Roman so where is the problem. The form of face of Jesus and his hair and eyes (even if his hair is not blond, enough the form of face) are 100% the form of white and europian person, and they refuse any other shape, all churchs are with the blond Jesus.
Sub. i didnt say that other faces of Jesus dont exist for nothing, you will find him drawn with dark hair and black eyes or look like Latin and so on, the point is who know about these pics, why always the blond Jesus with the whites face shape exist and its spreaded in all world nearlly 100%, even in indonesia i ask you to go to church and look at image of Jesus, you wont see Jews man you will see europian man, i ask why? only this interest me, because its so far from truth, even if they draw him with black hair and black eyes with europian face shape it will be more close to turth because jews are not blond with blue eyes, but they made him so far from truth and made him 100% white man. And the thing that interest me more is that no one these days ask about this matter, because for me its a sensibile matter, always religioun seek for truth, why the followers of these religiouns didnt seek it in the shape of the man that they consider him God. If it doesnt matter the shape of Jesus then i think also black Jesus and Latin and Asian must be drawn in vatican or any other big church that rappresent a group and Latin and Asian, the q is will they accept?
I remember the story of Da Vinci when he wanted to draw Jesus he went to seek the most handsome man and he found one, then when he wanted to draw Judah he went to seek an ugly person (i think he went to jail) and he found an ugly man, after that they discovered that this Ugly man was the same handsome that was drawn as Jesus, with time he became the ugly guy.
For me Jesus got the tipical Jews form, but for me also he was so handsome even more handsome than the blond with blue eyes people, thats what i think about prophets, prophet Muhammed pbuh was white skin but he got the tipical arabic face, and i believe that he is the most handsome man on earth, for me its enough to have this idea about his face and i dont want any one to draw him or any other prophet for me, because the idea of having the most handsome pure face of these faithful persons peace be upon them is better than any image that people can draw.

[subterranean]

The form of face of Jesus and his hair and eyes (even if his hair is not blond, enough the form of face) are 100% the form of white and europian person, and they refuse any other shape, all churchs are with the blond Jesus


even in indonesia i ask you to go to church and look at image of Jesus, you wont see Jews man you will see europian man..

Have you been to Indonesia? Have you enter some (if not many) churches in Indonesia to prove your statement?

Before you can give sufficient facts to support your statement, please DO NOT assume and claim about something you don't really know. I gave you a link which consist various kinds of Jesus' images from many parts of the world and from various times. And so far, I think you fail to prove your statement. Now, you even claim that all churches believe in this image you claimed to be correct, in which, you fail to prove its correctnes!

[Logos]

Some interesting links, other than the one sub provided, because I'm not going to name names but I'm seeing some wild generalisations going on here! :p

"This image, from a church in Rome, dates from AD530."
http://www.rejesus.co.uk/expressions/faces_jesus/facesj_media/b_cosmas_damian_christ.jpg

"This picture of Jesus is from Ethiopia, from the 17th or 18th centuries."
http://www.rejesus.co.uk/expressions/faces_jesus/facesj_media/b_ethiopian_jesus_2.gif

edited to add:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041220/boyjesus.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_of_Jesus

[Shield&Sword]

I didnt go to indonesia, but i went to most important places for christians: palastine (i dont know how the white man shape arrived there) and italy, and where ever i go i find the same europian man in every church i enter, same angels also blond or red hair.
I post these posts because i find it so interesting that such images are spreaded in whole world, again i am not saying that other images does not exist, i am wondering how the west secceded in spreading an image that rappresent him not Jesus, when i see people with image of Jesus in thier pockets i find pictures look like Jeffry hunter. In past there was variety of images of Jesus (the europian man included) but they are not famous as the bond with blue eyes Jesus which is so far from reality, with time Jesus became blond with blue eyes, thats why i said that if you ask any one to draw Jesus he will draw him europian, even angels will draw them that way, these days Jesus is western man.
Only i am wondering why Jesus is blond with blue eyes, and such images are so spreaded in whole world in all church nearlly, i think you will find black Jesus in little churchs which few poor black people built it here and there to express (and this one also is far from truth) but who know about them. count the images of white Jesus in all churchs and you will fand him the max.
Logos i didnt know that black Jesus exist in Vatican but who know about him and thats my point, i always saw only the white man Jesus in tv and in the most famous image that Da Vinci made i think its name coppa .... i dont remember the rest. I think searching in net images of other Jesus shape is does not respond any thing, who know about them, and how much are they spreaded in churchs, and does they exist alone in church or the white man exist in so beutiful and large images with so beutifull angles. I am not saying any thing here, its only interesting for me. For me its like when the west say THE SECOND WORLD WAR, but not all the world participated in this war the main place is europe and large part of the world didnt participated but the west see europe as world only and they succeded to put this idea in minds of others, also like saying the world art while its art of europe only, where is the rest of world? and now the man that they think he is God made him europian and they succeded, even for us non christians we know Jeffry Hunter shape of Jesus. I am not discussing christianity here and has nothing with religioun, even perhaps some christians (perhaps Asian, Latina and African) agree with me, that the west is spreading god as western man, or to be mure specific the western man as god.

[subterranean]

I didnt go to indonesia


even in indonesia i ask you to go to church and look at image of Jesus, you wont see Jews man you will see europian man..


So, are you humble enough to correct your statement now that you admit you never been to Indonesia?

From what I read so far in this thread and the other thread, you like to make statements without any basis and you hold on to them even though other members have shown you, with facts, that your statements are wrong. And I think, you need to start working on that. This is just an input for you if you want to continue to keep having good discussions in the forum.

[Shield&Sword]

I say also to Latins go your churchs and see the white Jesus, i say also to Asians go to churchs and see white Jesus in churchs that doesnt mean that i went there so i dont know how you got this idea, when i said that thing it was because i am sure the image of white Jesus exist perhaps not in all churchs in that countries but in a huge amount of churchs, i didnt claim that i was in Indonesia and then i said i wasnt there, i claim that white Jesus is spreaded there in churchs (especially new churchs) and i wasnt wrong, so i dont know why you stoped on this statment of mine and even didnt talk about the white Jesus that invading churchs.
I dont think that you are defending your religioun because our discuss is not on religioun, you are defending west and his spreading of wrong image of Jesus, Jesus was Jews so his image must be an image of Jews, but all i see is Jeffry Hunter shape even in palastine the main place of christianity thats what make me wondering how christians are not saying any thing.

[Scheherazade]

Please do not personalise your comments during discussions; it is the ideas that we discuss, not people who hold them.

It is also important to keep in mind that many who post here do not speak English as their first language and at times fail to express their views properly; some more so than the others.

[subterranean]

I'm not challenging the person but I'm challenging the ideas and statements. Funny that after all these posts, I still can't find any image of Jesus with blue eyes and blond hair. And I'm hoping that S&S can assist me by providing a link to articles or whatever, that can support his statements/claims (about white Jesus domination all over the world). What I wanted to see here is just fact; that simple.

Being a non native English speaker, I probably have problem in conveying and understanding written English language. If this is indeed the case here, then please excuse me. My intention is to take the discussion to the next level. However, if S&S wants to stay on the opinion level, then I probably refrain from posting further comment because there's not much to say when it comes to opinion.

[Shield&Sword]

Its all your choice to accept that white Jesus is invading the world or not. I dont know which sites you mean, are you waiting that i find sites with the title: WHITE JESUS IS INVADING THE WORLD, i ask you to go to churchs its best way to understand, or you can go to any shop that sell images of Jesus and angles (in angels case even western babys got thier place in heaven, i wish i could see japanese angle or african or asian in churchs, all i find is little white baby with wings). I am not talking about religioun but i am talking how west is working in putting the idea that God and angels are like white man. I am talking about what i saw always in churchs, even if you find Jesus with black hair you will find the white face shape. its not that i am trying to force you to believe me because really i dont care alot about it, only i find it so interesting when i think about it and wanted to hear christians opinions, its up to you to go to churchs and check. Any way nothing happened, scuse me alot if you felt that i insulted religioun really i didnt intend that, only i was talking about west and his ways in invading other parts of world even with image of person they consider him god. When i see these images i think white man want to say: "i am god".

[subterranean]

Still no facts....


Well, I'm outta of this thread :).

[Thorwench]

As I said before: blond and blue eyed is a modern version (19th/20th century) shaping the image to fit an ideal of beauty which is, indeed, Western in origin. Until then Jesus was more or less depicted as black haired with mostly dark eyes, sometimes dark blue though. He looked quite semitic because that is what he was. In the works of art before the 19th century and even after, he never wears a roman hairstyle (short and cleanly shaven) but wore the longer hair of his people and is often shown with a beard (as again was common amongst his people). People in Syria, the Lebanon and elsewhere can look blond and blue eyed because people mixed quite frequently at the times of the crusades from 1099 (taking of Jerusalem) until 1453 (fall of Constantinople). For more than 100 years after 1099 there even was a Christian Kingdom in the Middle East called Outremer stretching from Akaba in the South to Latakia in the North (borders of 1165). It was relatively small from East to West, including Genezareth but not Baalbek, However it included Petra, Gaza, Jaffa, Beirut, Tripolis, Tyros, Nablus etc. There were numerous mixed marriages also between the nobles of all sides since, once Outremer was established after 1099, the ex-crusaders there didn't like the new crusaders after having settled in nicely with the locals. There common interests lay mainly with their arab neighbours and not with new knights who wanted their bit of the cake. That's how blond and blue eyed can appear in the Middle East apart from the Viking influence of course.

[Goodfella]

Still no facts....


Well, I'm outta of this thread :).

Mr Subterranean, I am really sorry but I didn't mean to anger you about my last post. And if I got you two well, S&S didn't mean to also make you hurt. So, please, be sorry. Continue posting your replies- are very educated and erudite.
Once again, don't go like that.

[Goodfella]

You kept me waiting Sub. are you still worry?

[Madhuri]

I am sure she will reply, Goodfella. I have not seen her around lately, maybe she is busy.

[ShoutGrace]

I am sure she will reply, Goodfella.


I highly doubt it. :D



Still no facts....


Well, I'm outta of this thread :).

[Shield&Sword]

I think i made her angry, scuse me alot, i was only talking about things i see in everyday life, i didnt intend to talk about religioun or any thing.

[Evi]

I dont think that this thread has really had to do with literature and i dont know why it is existing.

I dont know why in all forums have to be discussions like that: arguements about everything, espcesially about relious things.

Why Jesus has blue eyes? Why the Western culture is like that? Indifferent of Jesus/ Alah ( this is for Muslims, i dont know how you call your God, sorry) , /Budhha etc was blond , dark haired etc , the people who want to believe in this they will believe, let them believe. Which is the point?

Do you really think that if the icon of Jesus was a black man Christians wont believe in him??:?

Evi

[ShoutGrace]

I think i made her angry, scuse me alot, i was only talking about things i see in everyday life, i didnt intend to talk about religioun or any thing.

Maybe it would have been wise to avoid the 'Religious Texts' section, then.



I dont think that this thread has really had to do with literature and i dont know why it is existing.

What does the 'general chat' section have to do with literature? This subsection is designed to facilitate the discussion of 'sacred' texts . . . why are such things not considered literature to you? Would you like to start a thread on this topic?



I dont know why in all forums have to be discussions like that: arguements about everything, espcesially about relious things.

I know exactly what you mean here . . . if there wasn't a forum moderator standing behind me with a pistol pressed against my skull, I should feel freer to avoid arguing.


Why Jesus has blue eyes?

Clarify, please. Your next statement implies that 'Western culture' is responsible. So far on this thread we haven't produced any pictures of Jesus with blue eyes, as far as I can remember.



Indifferent of Jesus/ Alah ( this is for Muslims, i dont know how you call your God, sorry) , /Budhha etc was blond , dark haired etc , the people who want to believe in this they will believe, let them believe. Which is the point?

What is the point? How about spreading information and clarifying confusing issues through the medium of (semi)intelligent, varied discussion? Go back and read the opening post, then imagine if the questions raised there had simply been ignored. This forum serves a noble purpose.


Do you really think that if the icon of Jesus was a black man Christians wont believe in him??:?

Illogically, inconsistently, irrationally, stupidly . . . yes, there would be. There are such things as Christian Aryan supremacists (who stolidly ignore the contradiction they epitomize).

[muhsin]

I dont think that this thread has really had to do with literature and i dont know why it is existing.

I dont know why in all forums have to be discussions like that: arguements about everything, espcesially about relious things.

Why Jesus has blue eyes? Why the Western culture is like that? Indifferent of Jesus/ Alah ( this is for Muslims, i dont know how you call your God, sorry) , /Budhha etc was blond , dark haired etc , the people who want to believe in this they will believe, let them believe. Which is the point?

Do you really think that if the icon of Jesus was a black man Christians wont believe in him??:?

Evi

How "I don't care" do you think you sounded? It's to me no good. You don't even the name of Muslim's God..hahaha I wish such folk aren't members of this forum. How?
Wonderful!:thumbs_up

[Evi]

"hahaha I wish such folk aren't members of this forum. How?
Wonderful!"


Dont worry Muhsin,

I wont post again in this forum anyway. Have a wonderful time in discussing religious themes here!

Evi

[miss tenderness]

/ Alah ( this is for Muslims, i dont know how you call your God, sorry)
Evi

Evi,welcome to the forums. Allah,swt, is our God and this is His name. We always praise Him with many praises and out of a grand respect,we do not mention His name alone. My favorite is,Allah,the most Gracious the most Merciful.

[Nightshade]

Actaullay that term your god annoys me, well actually prehaps not depends I guess if you are a chrisitian or a jew or a umm whats it called followers of abraham , then its OUR God since we all belive in the same god we just have differant ways of going about it.

not that it really has anything to do with this thread just count it as my random thought of the day.

[miss tenderness]

:D:D,Night!

[Evi]

Because of a message that i received from a member here( a very kind message and thank you! I already answered back to you) i wanted to clarify some things. Well, i have been a member of many forums the last years( about cinema and literature etc) and i usually try to find new friends to discuss about common things and to learn new things etc. But i have observed that in all forums sooner or later there will be figths , especially when the discussion is about politics and religions. Every person has his own beliefs and this is it, there are things in my opinion that are very gentle to discuss and very easy to fight( without a reason) This was the point of my post at this religious thread. I wanted to say that there is not a point to fight because of God, anyway He is the same God for all people indifferent of his name. I am not the more clever person in this world but i have a University degree and i have traveled in half of this planet. Of course i know the name that Muslims use for God. I wasnt sure about the spelling thought. Anyway, this wasnt the point. I just wanted to say that for me, it is better discussions remaining in a more civilised level in order to avoid bad feelings and fights.

At the internet it is very easy saying what ever you want and it is much more easier to fight with somebody , since everyone is using a nick name and we dont know each others details. So, we dont think twice before writting and insulting somebody.

I am not insulted very easy usually. And i just stated my opinion without insulting. Sorry if i gave the impression to the Muslims members of thsi forum that i insulted them only because i said that i am not exactly sure about the name they use about God. This wasnt my point. But i find Mushims reaction insulting to me when she/ he is stating that he/ she is feeling sorry that in this forum are existing persons like me. It is very easy insulting someone when you are "hiding" with a nick name at the internet.

I wasnt intented to write again especialy in this thread! But since i had the very gentle response from Miss Tenderness explaining to me about her God and since i received a friendly message i felt that i had to explain.

Thanls for listening everybody.

Evi

[muhsin]

Am sorry Evi. I learnt you're upset because of my respond to your reply which I thought or felt extremely as a disgrace to ny religion.

Sincerely, you yourself know that; you frankly sounded a bit hash and disrespected in your reply. I think, no any religion gives right to its followers to relegate any other, isn't it? So, if what I suspected is really true why should I not respond in the I do. Though, I even "simplify" my tongue. However, I said am awfully sorry. We despise any rancour in this Site.

Please, lets respect one anothers' belief and have a good stay in this Site.

[miss tenderness]

I wasnt intented to write again especialy in this thread! But since i had the very gentle response from Miss Tenderness explaining to me about her God and since i received a friendly message i felt that i had to explain.

Hey,Evi,you are welcome anytime>>>off topic: the way you put your sentences above makes one think that it's me who send the gentle private message:lol: so, as I do not make confusion or falsely accept the assuming that I'm the sender,I would clearly state that I'm not the one who send this gentle pm to Evi .


I am not insulted very easy usually. And i just stated my opinion without insulting. Sorry if i gave the impression to the Muslims members of thsi forum that i insulted them only because i said that i am not exactly sure about the name they use about God. This wasnt my point. But i find Mushims reaction insulting to me when she/ he is stating that he/ she is feeling sorry that in this forum are existing persons like me. It is very easy insulting someone when you are "hiding" with a nick name at the internet.

Muhsin was insulted, I do not blame him. But I do blame the way he reacted. It's not good at all to say such a sentence ,Muhsin. You know why I was so cool in my response for Evi,Muhsin?because my God,Allah,swt, is just great,the fact that Evi did not know His grand name(though she knew actually,but was trying to make sure) neither reduce nor add to His greatness, you know that. It's actually a pity on those who do not know about Allah,swt. I bet if they've known Him and read His words in the Quran,they will pay the respect needed for His exaltedness.



But i have observed that in all forums sooner or later there will be figths , especially when the discussion is about politics and religions. Every person has his own beliefs and this is it, there are things in my opinion that are very gentle to discuss and very easy to fight( without a reason) This was the point of my post at this religious thread. I wanted to say that there is not a point to fight because of God, anyway He is the same God for all people indifferent of his name.
I see your point,Evi. Can't say that there haven't been fights,but I assure ye that most of the members here know how to hold a very civilized discussions when it comes to religions. I'd love to learn about other religions , exchange opinions,increase my knowledge in everything,thus,closing the religious forum for the fear of(may fights happen ) doesn't make sense,u know. I knew that you knew Allah's,swt, name, you were just afraid of misspell it,thanks for that.
One more thing: I'd love you to join us in the religion forum, seriously. Or els,maybe I'll accept your invitation for books discussion:lol:,I'm here and there anyway:D

[Evi]

Muhsin,

Of course we respect each others faith. Maybe our English has to blame, and we dont understand each other sometimes. Or maybe we have to read first carefully before posting. We are here people from all over the world from different cultures and from different religions, nations etc. So we have to be much more carefull in everything.

Actually this was my point: that a religious topic will bring sooner or later troubles like that. For example : not being sure how exactly it is written a name in a foreign language ( English of me is a foreign language , since my mother language is Greek) doesnt mean that i dont respect your religion!!!!I dont want to fight with you ( or with anybody anymore) but do you know for example how it is written in Italian ( just an example the name of my God?) If you dont know or if you are not sure that means that you dont respect my religion? Just to give to you to understand how you make me feel with yor comment. You dont know me and i dont know you, and it is very easy through internet hurt each other.

Apologise accepted. End of the topic, lets move and hope i will meet you in another thread about books and writers( this is the main topic of the forum anyway).

Last statement of the day: Miss Tenderness wasnt the one who sent the gentle message. I just thanked MT because of her prompt reply to this thread.

Evi