Old English: And Wilt Thou?!

[Ahmed-Adel]

Hello Friends,
I have been thinking of opening this discussion for a while. What about talking about Old English?! It is generally known that while reading classic novels or plays, we encounter Old English words/phrases. What dost thou think?
And wilt thou discuss this topic? Tell me for sooth; ay, indeed!
Methinks it is an interesting topic. When I usually chat with my colleagues, they do ask me why I love to insert those Old English words in my chats. Why, I love it!
I will be waiting for thine replies all.

And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay, for shame!

Sir Thomas Wyatt, An Appeal

[Shannanigan]

Isn't actual Old English nearly intelligible to the unpracticed ear? :p

I think you mean Middle English...or just older English than we are speaking, :)

I learned about Old English and Middle English only last semester, and they seemed so interesting...to think that what we speak today somehow evolved out of...THAT...and that a few hundred years from now, the English we speak now will be hard for the general population to understand...

[Wild Apple]

Those words aren't really old english. The "thou"s, "dost"s, "forsooth"s etc... are actually pretty modern. I would be surprised if they were older than early modern english.

The langauge of Wyatt (whom you quote) and Shakespeare isn't very far from what we speak today. Which is a great thing, because we can read them without too many explanatory notes or translations. Old english on the other hand is about 1000 years old, and you would need to study many years to read it with any fluidity.


But for thy general point, thou speakest the truth.

[Virgil]

Hello Friends,
I have been thinking of opening this discussion for a while. What about talking about Old English?! It is generally known that while reading classic novels or plays, we encounter Old English words/phrases. What dost thou think?
And wilt thou discuss this topic? Tell me for sooth; ay, indeed!
Methinks it is an interesting topic. When I usually chat with my colleagues, they do ask me why I love to insert those Old English words in my chats. Why, I love it!
I will be waiting for thine replies all.

And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay, for shame!

Sir Thomas Wyatt, An Appeal

What did you have in mind, Ahmed. I know Shea and Petrarch know some old english and I can probably go back to some of my books and look things up. Old english is usually classified as the language from 449 to 1100.

[Whifflingpin]

Just to be a bore, I will comment that "Old English" refers to English that was spoken/written before the Norman Conquest had its effect on the language. (I accept the argument, it should more properly be called Anglo-Saxon.)

Try these heart rending lines from The Wanderer -
"Hwaer cwom mearg? hwear cwom mago?
Hwaer cwom mathumgifa?
hwaer cwom symbla gesetu? hwaer sindon seledreamas?
Eala beorht bune! eala byrnwiga!"

Methinks (which actually means "it seems to me" rather than "I think") thou wouldst use Elizabethan English, but whither would such a discussion lead?

Mayhap the proper place would be as a game in the general discussion forum, unless this thread were for the discussion of meanings or use of particular words or phrases.

[PeterL]

Hello Friends,
I have been thinking of opening this discussion for a while. What about talking about Old English?! It is generally known that while reading classic novels or plays, we encounter Old English words/phrases. What dost thou think?
And wilt thou discuss this topic? Tell me for sooth; ay, indeed!
Methinks it is an interesting topic. When I usually chat with my colleagues, they do ask me why I love to insert those Old English words in my chats. Why, I love it!
I will be waiting for thine replies all.

And wilt thou leave me thus?
Say nay, say nay, for shame!

Sir Thomas Wyatt, An Appeal

Old English was completely different from Middle English (Chaucer, etc.) and even more distant from Wyatt's Modern English, which is easily understandable to any literate speaker and reader of English.
Here are some links about Old English
http://www.bede.net/umass/in/gram/KingAlfredGrammar.html
http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/engl401/lessons/lesson1.htm

[Wild Apple]

Alright guys, no more piling it on the guy.

[Ahmed-Adel]

Hwaer cwom mearg? hwear cwom mago?
Hwaer cwom mathumgifa?
hwaer cwom symbla gesetu? hwaer sindon seledreamas?
Eala beorht bune! eala byrnwiga!
Why, well, I did not mean OLD English literally. I meant that of the thee's and thou's. Wilt thou hear a man speaking like this today? Why, of course not. Wilt thou hear a man saying "would'st"? Why, of course not. Wilt any of thee hear a man adding the word "why" in the beginning of each sentence? Why, methinks not :D!
I did not mean, then, that totally different language. Old English, as Anthony Burgess says in his English Literature, "was a language rich in consonants, fond of clustering its consonants together, so that the mouth seems to perform a swift act of violence." See this line from Beowulf:

Steap stanlitho -- stige nearwe
(Steep stone-slopes, paths narrow)
This is really strange.
Thus, I mean the English starting from the Elizabethan period, or a bit earlier, from Chaucer. This English, methinks, is OLD for us -- living in 2006!
What dost thou, all, think now?
And concerning what this will lead to, why, me knows not. I wanted to see how we can write totally in that language -- that of "wilt, would'st, thou..."
I haven't had the chance to write thus now, because I wanted just to explain my aim. Later, I will try my best to write to you totally in that language. Ok?! :)
:idea: Let us consider it a sort of competition, proving our abilities in writing thus, and only thus! Let us discuss that language using that language.
Thou agree'st?! :rolleyes:

[Nightwalk]

Alright guys, no more piling it on the guy.

Good point Wild Apple. Sheesh, the guy was merely suggesting a topic for discussion.

Good thread Ahmed-Ahdel. Old English is too distant for moderns to comprehend, Beowulf being the most famous example. The english of Chaucer's time is already a language on it's own. Some people take courses to learn the earliest forms of the language, like some would study Ancient Greek or Latin.

[Petrarch's Love]

God dæg, eart wilcuman thou that art yclept Ahmed-Adel. Hwaet! Dost thou then think four or five hundred years a long time? Be thou not afeared of these pedantic persons who object to thine ill choosen adjective when thou didst call such English "old." :lol: Sooth to say I have oft been such a Polonious myself, as 'tis indeed good modern English of which thou speak'st (you seem to mean "Early Modern" or perhaps more specifically Tudor period or Elizabethan English, which some people refer to as "archaic" when looking for an adjective to avoid the old pitfall you've fallen into ;) ).

A merry idea 'tis thou hast happened on. Surely these good folk will most willingly partake of this fond exercise when they have once let quaking for fear to be forced into speaking in the Anglo-Saxon tongue! What then shall we speak of? Happily some fine invention may be discovered to guide our antique discourse.

[Whifflingpin]

Ah Laura, my pigges nye, 'twas not the adjective that was ill-chose, but merely the capital that was misplaced. Who knows naught of Old English may yet write in old English.

[Ahmed-Adel]

God dæg, eart wilcuman ye that art yclept Ahmed-Adel. Hwaet!

Be thou not afeared of these pedantic persons who object to thine ill choosen adjective when thou didst call such English "old."

A merry idea 'tis thou hast happened on. Surely these good folk will most willingly partake of this fond exercise when they have once let quaking for fear to be forced into speaking in the Anglo-Saxon tongue! What then shall we speak of? Happily some fine invention may be discovered to guide our antique discourse.
Now I must thank thee, Petrarch's Love, for thine excellent reply. Thou hast encouraged me to go ahead. Methinks the point is clear now. 'Tis good to change our tongues a little!
The tongue that thou hast spoken in is really good, but Pray, is there a translation for the first sentence :D :lol:?!
I must needs to thank thee too, Wild Apple... and thee to, Nightwalk, for thou both hast liked the idea of "change" :). The idea of "change" is usually not accepted by many a persons. Thou wert a defence; a defence indeed!
Yer know what? Many a time and oft have I been misunderstood. 'Tis not a good feeling, quoth I, for a person to be misunderstood. It giveth him the feeling that he hath something wrong in the way with which he expresseth himself, doth it not?!

Let us all not talk about the definition of Old English, for I know it for sure; let us talk in a different tongue; a different way!
And Wilt Thou?!

[PeterL]

The tongue that thou hast spoken in is really good, but Pray, is there a translation for the first sentence :D :lol:?!

"God dæg, eart wilcuman ye that art yclept Ahmed-Adel. Hwaet!"
In Modern English would be:
Good day, be welcome, you who is called Ahmed-Adel. surely!

I think that her comment was wordy.
God dæg, yclept Ahmed-Adel eart wilcuman. Hwaet!

[Ahmed-Adel]

"God dæg, eart wilcuman ye that art yclept Ahmed-Adel. Hwaet!"
In Modern English would be:
Good day, be welcome, you who is called Ahmed-Adel. surely!

I think that her comment was wordy.
God dæg, yclept Ahmed-Adel eart wilcuman. Hwaet!
Well, thank thee, PeterL, for the translation. Now I can understand it :).
Why, methinks the comment of Petrarch's Love was wordy indeed.
Prithee, where art thou members?!

[miss tenderness]

now it's a competion for translation Peterl,lad!translate this easy sentences:That day by day to scole was hir awone,presently ridan to work(that is me!). I lufianO.E and lufian to hieran it spooken.
Middle English is specified by some writers starting from1100 -15oo.By the end of O.E. period, about1100,we still have a form of English that looks like a foreign tongue; by 13oo the language has taken an appearance that is much more like modern English, the Norman Conquest has a great influence upon developing the O.E to its Middle English form which is close to the modern English we speak today.
Well,can't say it's a nice thread coz nice used to mean foolish or silly!( check Shakespeare),shifting of the meanings of words is very interesting topic,I'd love if we discuss it here.

[Ahmed-Adel]

now it's a competion for translation Peterl,lad!translate this easy sentences:That day by day to scole was hir awone,presently ridan to work(that is me!). I lufianO.E and lufian to hieran it spooken.

Well,can't say it's a nice thread coz nice used to mean foolish or silly!( check Shakespeare),shifting of the meanings of words is very interesting topic,I'd love if we discuss it here.
Well, let's discuss anything concern'd with that "strange" language here, as long as one writeth in that language, whatever it may be call'd, whether Early Modern or Old... Ok?!
Nice sentence Miss Tenderness. And wilt thou translate it PeterL? I must needs to wait and see!

[PeterL]

now it's a competion for translation Peterl,lad!translate this easy sentences:That day by day to scole was hir awone,presently ridan to work(that is me!). I lufianO.E and lufian to hieran it spooken.
Middle English is specified by some writers starting from1100 -15oo.By the end of O.E. period, about1100,we still have a form of English that looks like a foreign tongue; by 13oo the language has taken an appearance that is much more like modern English, the Norman Conquest has a great influence upon developing the O.E to its Middle English form which is close to the modern English we speak today.
Well,can't say it's a nice thread coz nice used to mean foolish or silly!( check Shakespeare),shifting of the meanings of words is very interesting topic,I'd love if we discuss it here.

I suspect that, although you now ride to work rather than to school, that you still love O.E. and would still love to hear it spoken.

The shifting of meanings is a more interesting study than the changes in sounds and spelling. It often appears that the shifts in meanings are from figurative or joking uses of a word. Descriptive adjectives seems to change more readily than basic nouns and verbs. "ridan" still means ride, but I can't figure out what "awone" means, nor did I find it in an online OE dictionary.

The most difficult part of OE for me is the difference in the alphabet. When OE is spelled in the modern alphabet, I can usually figure out what it means.

[PeterL]

Well, thank thee, PeterL, for the translation. Now I can understand it :).
Why, methinks the comment of Petrarch's Love was wordy indeed.
Prithee, where art thou members?!


Your question: "Prithee, where art thou members?!" is unclear. Either you used the wrong case and number in "thou" or there should be a comma after "thou".


Old English resources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english

[Ahmed-Adel]

Why, yes... I should have said, "Prithee, where art thou, members?"
The other meaning would'st have been, "Prithee, where art thy/thine (I am not sure!) members?" Right?!

[Whifflingpin]

""Prithee, where art thou members?!" is unclear. Either you used the wrong case and number in "thou""

Right case, wrong number. Since you've mentioned it first, I will admit the misuse of the second person singular in this thread is jarring. Even Petrarch's Love mixed a "ye" with an "art"

singular (and, at certain periods, familiar) - "thou art" "thou hast" "thou wouldst" "thou who art yclept"

plural (or, at certain periods, formal) - "ye are" "ye have" ye would" "you who are called"

"Prithee, tell me where are thy members? where thy legs? where thine arms?" are questions that might have been asked of a certain knight in "Monty Python & the Holy Grail."

[edit] "thy/thine" - possessive adjectives, they both mean "belonging to thee." Use "thy" before a consonant and "thine" before a vowel.
Not "where art thy members?" because the verb ("art") has to agree with "members" - so it should be "where are thy members?"
[end edit]


"I pray you, tell me where are you, members?"

Exit fitzPolonius stage left.

[PeterL]

""Prithee, where art thou members?!" is unclear. Either you used the wrong case and number in "thou""

Right case, wrong number. Since you've mentioned it first, I will admit the misuse of the second person singular in this thread is jarring. Even Petrarch's Love mixed a "ye" with an "art"

singular (and, at certain periods, familiar) - "thou art" "thou hast" "thou wouldst" "thou who art yclept"

plural (or, at certain periods, formal) - "ye are" "ye have" ye would" "you who are called"

"Prithee, tell me where are thy members? where thy legs? where thine arms?" are questions that might have been asked of a certain knight in "Monty Python & the Holy Grail."

[edit] "thy/thine" - possessive adjectives, they both mean "belonging to thee." Use "thy" before a consonant and "thine" before a vowel.
Not "where art thy members?" because the verb ("art") has to agree with "members" - so it should be "where are thy members?"
[end edit]


"I pray you, tell me where are you, members?"

Exit fitzPolonius stage left.


I love syntax. It can make so many problems and cure them just as easily. I was thinking of one such as that unfortunate knight. I am glad that you went through the details.

[PeterL]

Why, yes... I should have said, "Prithee, where art thou, members?"
The other meaning would'st have been, "Prithee, where art thy/thine (I am not sure!) members?" Right?!

"Prithee, where art thou, members?" if that's what you meant, then it is still incorrect, because "thou" is the singular. While the singular forms of the personal pronoun were originally used just as the singular, sometime in the early modern period those forms came to be used only among close friends, much the way that "tu" is used in French today. In any event, you should have used the plural.

[miss tenderness]

I suspect that, although you now ride to work rather than to school, that you still love O.E. and would still love to hear it spoken..almost close;the translation is:
who day by day used[to go]to school,now ride to work:)so great work.actually the first sentence is used by Chauser in one of his poem.


The shifting of meanings is a more interesting study than the changes in sounds and spelling. It often appears that the shifts in meanings are from figurative or joking uses of a word. Descriptive adjectives seems to change more readily than basic nouns and verbs. "ridan" still means ride, but I can't figure out what "awone" means, nor did I find it in an online OE dictionary.
.I agree with all of this,yes,very true. Ridan is an infinitive verb.

[Whifflingpin]

"Ridan is an infinitive verb"

I think the verbs in "I lufianO.E and lufian to hieran it spooken" are all in the infinitive form, so the "lufians" are not proper.

Perhaps - "the eald engliscgereord myn lust is ond ic wolde it hieran" - "the old english tongue is my delight and I desire to hear it."

.

[PeterL]

almost close;the translation is:
who day by day used[to go]to school,now ride to work:)so great work.actually the first sentence is used by Chauser in one of his poem.


Aha! Chaucer, so it was Middle English. I suspected it might be, rather than OE written in modern letters.

[Ahmed-Adel]

"Sownynge in moral vertu was his speche,
And gladly wolde he lerne, and gladly teche."

Chaucer, from The Canterbury Tales, lines 309,310.
This can be translated as follows:

"Filled with moral virtue was his speech;
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach."

Ye see this? This is somehow close to our English, isn't it?!
By the way, thanks for all who helped us with their explanations :thumbs_up.

[miss tenderness]

QUOTE=PeterL;250549]The shifting of meanings is a more interesting study than the changes in sounds and spelling. It often appears that the shifts in meanings are from figurative or joking uses of a word. Descriptive adjectives seems to change more readily than basic nouns and verbs. "ridan" still means ride, but I can't figure out what "awone" means, nor did I find it in an online OE dictionary.
.[/QUOTE]the shift of meanings is very interesting ,the changes of spelling and sturucture have lesss interest but it is worthy to be studied and looked at,you'll discover new things and some of them are really surprising.lets see some interesting examples for the shift of meaning:fond meant foolish in Shakespeare like in Remeo and Juliet:
Thou fond mad man,hear me a little speak.
The word nice which originally had the meaning ignorant(latin),is used in Elizabethan English in the series foolish,trifling.
Moving from foolishness let's take the word naughty ,it's a mild term of reproach today but was much stronger in Shakespeare's age and is equivalent to Mod.wicked.cf.Merchant of Venus.(V,1,91):so shines a good deed in a naughty world. These above words have experienced words raise of meaning. There are other many words that had lowering of meaning like:silly which used to mean happy,blessed,it then took on the meaning simple and later degenerated into its modern sense. Interesting, yah?

[PeterL]

the shift of meanings is very interesting ,the changes of spelling and sturucture have lesss interest but it is worthy to be studied and looked at,you'll discover new things and some of them are really surprising.

I agree in part. The changes in structure, syntax, may be important, but changes in spelling don't mean anything in English. Spelling has been far behind the spoken language for hundreds of years, perhaps since the early Middle English period. Then damned Webster froze spelling.

P.L.

[Petrarch's Love]

I agree in part. The changes in structure, syntax, may be important, but changes in spelling don't mean anything in English. Spelling has been far behind the spoken language for hundreds of years, perhaps since the early Middle English period. Then damned Webster froze spelling.

Demmed meddelsum Websterre!

[PeterL]

Demmed meddelsum Websterre!

Dammed meddelsum Websta.