The Point of no Return

[PhantomLover2]

I was wondering why in the musical/ lyrics by ALW. Christine rips off Erik's mask. She seems to have the hots for him in that scene and doesn't really seem to want to hurt him. Haunting as the scene is: Erik's "Say you'll share with me one love one lifetime. Lead me, save me, from my solitude. Say you want me with you here beside you. Anywhere you go let me go too, Christine, that's all I ask of you!" declaration has been made and rather than shock, horror, or screaming from Christine she simply looks as though she is going to caress Erik's face but then she rips his mask off for what? Raoul knows it's the phantom and yet won't let the police arrest him which is his brilliant plan to rid the opera house of Erik. Does she want to cause Erik pain from the gasp that runs through the audience? I think not. Why expose Erik at all? In this scene, she really seems to care for him and maybe even love him a little. She allows him to hold her and run his fingers through her hair during the song and she seems hypnotized by Erik. Almost as though there's nothing more in the world she wants than Erik at her side loving her. So why? Why rip off the mask? It doesn't make sense to me.

[RDraconis]

I don't know either. I think ALW was desperate for a way to get him to kidnap her. I mean- in the book he does... But... well... I don't know.
It doesn't make sense in the movie.

Maybe she remembered that he could make her follow him with his voice and there was no way to escape from it. The only way she could think to stop it was to unmask him. I mean, she does open her eyes during "here beside you"... Kind of like a realization or something.

[white camellia]

Maybe intoxicated by his music, she forgot his grotesque face from which once her judgemental sense had drew her back and then unconsciously managed to rip off his mask as if in this way she could better feel him, his music and love...
I only watched this movie of recent version many times and loved it! I suppose I would be much more intrigued by the novel!

[RDraconis]

Maybe intoxicated by his music, she forgot his grotesque face from which once her judgemental sense had drew her back and then unconsciously managed to rip off his mask as if in this way she could better feel him, his music and love...
I only watched this movie of recent version many times and loved it! I suppose I would be much more intrigued by the novel!

Maybe... but she was listening, eyes closed, like she was so happy. Then her eyes open and it was like she got a bit of her sense back. Like in the Labyrinth(spoiler)- that scene at the end "You have no power over me".(/spoiler) I always thought it was more like that. Not a "I want to feel it completely", just a "Your hold on me is gone."
She also looked really apologetic after- if it was "I want to feel you better", she probably wouldn't look like that.
I think that's why he looked like 'Right, of course. Why would I think you'd be different?' for a moment before letting loose the chandelier.
If he didn't think that he'd lost his power over her- why would he've hoped Raoul'd follow so that he had some leverage to force her to marry him?

I think you'd like the novel alot. I'd really suggest it! The characters seem so much more real, and alot of it is that much better.

[Vpoiske]

Well, when I first saw this moment this scene didn’t make sense for me too. But then I watched this particular scene many times and it seems to me that I’ve found en explanation, at least for myself :). In fact, the policemen who are supposed to catch him do not know the phantom’s face and while they are singing everybody is so hypnotized by them that people can’t just say a word. When the Phantom says “You’ve decided” Chrisitine realizes that there’s no way out and she has betrayed him and that there’s no point of return. But she still can’t resist him and then she looks at Raul as if trying to convince herself that she is doing right. But from this very moment though she is doing everything to deceive and to lull his vigilance she is singing only the truth I mean what she really feels. And when she is ready to forget everything in his arms she understands that his power over her is too strong and that’s why she also remembers what she MUST (but does not want to – that’s why she then looks so guilty - ) do – to pull off the mask as if to renounce him publicly. Maybe my imagination is too strong, but maybe because of the fact that the phantom seems to deserve her love more, there’s such a strong desire to penetrate into their minds and search at least there the desirable end :)

[Phantom'sAria29]

I totally agree with Vpoiske. I also agree that you should read the book because I also think that ALW is trying to fit the whole " love of the most exquisite kind, the kind which people do not admit even to themselves." In that scene its like Christine finally realized that there was more than his song holding her, she finally realized she loved him. I think this thought might have put her into realization of what she had to do. I would also suggest going to www.phantomcollecton.com to see some awesome works of art and www.ladyghost.com if you have any questions, then you will get an answer there.

[Coloratura42]

I explained it in a fanfic like this: "Erik gently took my hand, singing softly. I stared up at him in wonder, a smile on my face. I suddenly felt the urge to see his face again, to show him – to show everyone! – that I was not afraid, that there was no reason to be afraid… And so I reached up and pulled his mask away…

It was a mistake. Someone screamed – I could not tell if it was someone in the wings or from the audience… All I could see was the look in Erik’s eyes… I knew that he thought I had betrayed him… No… no! I hadn’t meant…"

It's true, though: that, the song "Twisted Every Way", and the "tears of hate" line are a little odd if one thinks that she really does live him.

~Coloratura42

[amanda_isabel]

in the same way that people just aren't sure of why shakespeare put hamlet's to be or not to be speech where he put it, i guess the same goes for ALW in this case. but hey, you're right, it's a good qustion, unfortunately you'll have to get a real answer from none other than ALW himself.

p.s. i miss coming here! been so busy lately,...

[RDraconis]

I explained it in a fanfic like this: "Erik gently took my hand, singing softly. I stared up at him in wonder, a smile on my face. I suddenly felt the urge to see his face again, to show him – to show everyone! – that I was not afraid, that there was no reason to be afraid… And so I reached up and pulled his mask away…

It was a mistake. Someone screamed – I could not tell if it was someone in the wings or from the audience… All I could see was the look in Erik’s eyes… I knew that he thought I had betrayed him… No… no! I hadn’t meant…"

It's true, though: that, the song "Twisted Every Way", and the "tears of hate" line are a little odd if one thinks that she really does live him.

~Coloratura42



She doesn't love him. Christine thought he was the angel of music... or her father... then she finds out that he's a man. A murderer, a stalker, but not an angel. She finds out he lied to her and betrayed her. Why would she love him? Because he's got a pretty voice? Hardly a good reason. And he's already proven he'd hurt her in a minute- he did when she took off his mask. She did it just because she wanted to see his face, and he totally knocks her down and away with a single swipe.
In the book,he warned her not to and she did out of anger. In the movie he never did, and she had this look of affection as she did it. I'm willing to bet if he hadn't hit her then shouted at her- she wouldn't have cared. But he did those things- and screwed himself over in the process.


I saw no love for him except for at the beginning. After the whole Il Muto thing, she doesn't. She pities him a bit- but she's still frightened, and calls him a murderer. She doesn't say she loves him. And the whole "rose dropping" was symbolic for the fact that she doesn't feel any connection to him. It's why Erik says she denied and betrayed him. She did.



in the same way that people just aren't sure of why shakespeare put hamlet's to be or not to be speech where he put it, i guess the same goes for ALW in this case. but hey, you're right, it's a good qustion, unfortunately you'll have to get a real answer from none other than ALW himself.

I'm tempted to write him a letter that says "WTF was up with that?" in politer terms, of course. But I do want to. What's the likelihood he'd reply?

[ehath]

Of course, the recent movie in 2004 and the Musical have different presentations of it. In the movie, recall Raul talking with the Managers about a plan to capture him. They would act out his Opera, and Christine would betray him somehow, but they don't say exactly how. My guess is that removal of the Mask was the way - the ultimate betrayal. She sings about being torn, not wanting to betray the man who once inspired her voice, etc. But, Raul and the others persist and she agrees to do it. She seemed to be pretending that she was under his influence (as she had been in past scenes where he appears to hypnotize her.) At the right moment - when he is vulnerable she takes the action. In the movie, there is a delay before he exits with her. In that time, he looks into her eyes - if you look at the expression, it appears as though he is hurt or shocked that she did this. The movie made more of a tragic love story out of the story. In the movie, I believe she loved both men, just differently. I don't think she recognized that right away though. As for the musical - there I am not certain. I saw that in the 1980's and at that time only 1/2 understood.

The original book was more a horror, not so much a romance. In 1911 when it was published in the US in English, some information was probably lost in the translation. I don't recall if there was a time in the actual book that she removed his mask for any particular reason.

[RDraconis]

The original book was more a horror, not so much a romance. In 1911 when it was published in the US in English, some information was probably lost in the translation. I don't recall if there was a time in the actual book that she removed his mask for any particular reason.

In the book she does. During her stay at his house- in it she takes off the mask after awhile of shouting insults and demanding to see his face. After this he gets angry, screams at her, forces her to claw her fingernails into his face before sulking back to his room.
In all honesty, I don't think the face would've bugged her too much if it weren't for the emotion that results from having that happen to someone.

It's in Apollo's Lyre and tells it to Raoul. I don't think there's a version where she doesn't. In the '25 she does... In the '89 she does... in the Musical she does... In the rewrites I've seen she does... In Phantom of Manhatten the kid does.... Erik just can't keep that mask on.

[Wandering_Child]

I don't think there's a version where she doesn't. In the '25 she does... In the '89 she does... in the Musical she does... In the rewrites I've seen she does... In Phantom of Manhatten the kid does.... Erik just can't keep that mask on.

Of course. The revealing of Erik's face is the pivitol moment in basically all adaptations and interpretations of the story. The story couldn't exist without Christine seeing Erik's face. And in the musical, they needed a reason for Erik to kidnap Christine, besides many other reasons.

Just have to take a moment and say that I thought the Phantom of Manhattan was the worst continuation I've ever read. It belongs on ff.net along with the other horrible "tragic" stories that I've had the misfortune to read.

[RDraconis]

Of course. The revealing of Erik's face is the pivitol moment in basically all adaptations and interpretations of the story. The story couldn't exist without Christine seeing Erik's face. And in the musical, they needed a reason for Erik to kidnap Christine, besides many other reasons.

Just have to take a moment and say that I thought the Phantom of Manhattan was the worst continuation I've ever read. It belongs on ff.net along with the other horrible "tragic" stories that I've had the misfortune to read.

I read that. I loved the style- how they switched first person so well (Susan Kay could've taken lessons on that). But you're right about the plot. It started out well enough, but then it was just weird. It's like, it was all lead up and then they sort of dropped you into the climax without enough explanation and then it ended so quickly. The idea was sound enough, but the book needed a bit more work before it reached the public.
Although the end reeeeaaally sucked. "They lived happily ever after! Yayz!" >_<

[Wandering_Child]

I read that. I loved the style- how they switched first person so well (Susan Kay could've taken lessons on that). But you're right about the plot. It started out well enough, but then it was just weird. It's like, it was all lead up and then they sort of dropped you into the climax without enough explanation and then it ended so quickly. The idea was sound enough, but the book needed a bit more work before it reached the public.
Although the end reeeeaaally sucked. "They lived happily ever after! Yayz!" >_<

It was...okaaaay...but I read the foreward...that guy is a HYPOCRITE! He was bashing Leroux's book. Something like, "The Persian had been mentioned only once or twice...takes over the whole story..." (Not exact quote.) Who had ever heard of Cholly Bloom before he took over the story? And yes, the ending just sort of...came. And Erik just stands there as Christine's dying...I hated that part the worst.

[RDraconis]

It was...okaaaay...but I read the foreward...that guy is a HYPOCRITE! He was bashing Leroux's book. Something like, "The Persian had been mentioned only once or twice...takes over the whole story..." (Not exact quote.) Who had ever heard of Cholly Bloom before he took over the story? And yes, the ending just sort of...came. And Erik just stands there as Christine's dying...I hated that part the worst.

Yeah, I know. It's like... um... Okey. She gets there, finds out Erik's there and then... nothing for awhile. Then she goes to try and find him. And then she does and it's like, his minion goes and tries to kill the kid. Then, instead, Christine dies?! And then it's all Ok because teh kid takes of the mask and is all "Aww! It's not that bad!" and everyone's happy and the kid lives with his real daddy and I don't remember what happened with Raoul- but I'm sure it was happy. >_<
It leaves you sitting there going 'OK.... WTF? Did that just happen?'

[Wandering_Child]

Yeah, I know. It's like... um... Okey. She gets there, finds out Erik's there and then... nothing for awhile. Then she goes to try and find him. And then she does and it's like, his minion goes and tries to kill the kid. Then, instead, Christine dies?! And then it's all Ok because teh kid takes of the mask and is all "Aww! It's not that bad!" and everyone's happy and the kid lives with his real daddy and I don't remember what happened with Raoul- but I'm sure it was happy. >_<
It leaves you sitting there going 'OK.... WTF? Did that just happen?'

I know! She's just sitting there, talking to him in the Mirror House as if he didn't kidnap her, drive her practically insane, and almost kill her fiancee. And the part where Pierre decides to live with Erik is the worst. I mean, he had just seen him shoot a man in the forehead. And isn't this supposed to be a CONTINUATION of Leroux's book? HOW again is Erik his father?? (Yes...I know...Kay. But this is LEROUX.) Yeah, Christine couldn't even see past Erik's deformity in Leroux, so I doubt a twelve year-old kid could....Oh, and of course he's perfect-looking, too.

[RDraconis]

I know! She's just sitting there, talking to him in the Mirror House as if he didn't kidnap her, drive her practically insane, and almost kill her fiancee. And the part where Pierre decides to live with Erik is the worst. I mean, he had just seen him shoot a man in the forehead. And isn't this supposed to be a CONTINUATION of Leroux's book? HOW again is Erik his father?? (Yes...I know...Kay. But this is LEROUX.) Yeah, Christine couldn't even see past Erik's deformity in Leroux, so I doubt a twelve year-old kid could....Oh, and of course he's perfect-looking, too.

I dunno, apparently while she was at his house the second time he raped her? Or the reason she was banging her head so hard is the realization of what she did finally dawned on her. :lol:
I am, of course, joking. But it's the only thing I can figure... ^^;

Besides, if Pierre doesn't end up living with his daddy- it won't be a happy happy ending! XD

[Wandering_Child]

I dunno, apparently while she was at his house the second time he raped her? Or the reason she was banging her head so hard is the realization of what she did finally dawned on her. :lol:
I am, of course, joking. But it's the only thing I can figure... ^^;

Besides, if Pierre doesn't end up living with his daddy- it won't be a happy happy ending! XD

Grr! The worst thing is his opera. It takes him his whole life to write Don Juan, and took him, what, two months (?) to write Angel of Shiloh or whatever the crap it's called. Don Juan is crap, but of course everyone loves Shiloh.

[emilysweety]

um, i need to correct u something, Erik was singing, "All I ask of you", but he never reached "You."

[emilysweety]

Christine ripped off Erik's mask because she loved him very much, she didn't even care how does he look like anymore, she just wanted to assure that she loved Erik deeply in her heart by looking at Erik's real deformed face(because she wasn't sure if she loved him, she also loved Raoul). She did it, and she found out that she truly loved him. While the audiance were screaming, she didn't react to any thing. Her eyes were simply filled with tears, i did not see any fears in her eyes. I know she loved him, deep down her heart, she had always loved him... That's TRUE LOVE.

[RDraconis]

Christine ripped off Erik's mask because she loved him very much, she didn't even care how does he look like anymore, she just wanted to assure that she loved Erik deeply in her heart by looking at Erik's real deformed face(because she wasn't sure if she loved him, she also loved Raoul). She did it, and she found out that she truly loved him. While the audiance were screaming, she didn't react to any thing. Her eyes were simply filled with tears, i did not see any fears in her eyes. I know she loved him, deep down her heart, she had always loved him... That's TRUE LOVE.

STOP TALKING ABOUT THE MOVIE!
In the book she took it off ONCE, he spazzed out and to make sure he didn't kill her she burned the mask as a "eh, eh? See? It's Ok... Can I go home to the guy who really loves me yet?" move, which she later told Raoul about. She pitied him but wanted to escape him; the only reason she didn't leave right then was so he could hear her sing again. Not because she loved him. The movie was so... very... OFF.

[Wandering_Child]

STOP TALKING ABOUT THE MOVIE!
In the book she took it off ONCE, he spazzed out and to make sure he didn't kill her she burned the mask as a "eh, eh? See? It's Ok... Can I go home to the guy who really loves me yet?" move, which she later told Raoul about. She pitied him but wanted to escape him; the only reason she didn't leave right then was so he could hear her sing again. Not because she loved him. The movie was so... very... OFF.

HALLELUJAH! AMEN! WOOT! *ahem* That's my input there...

[Phangirl7]

I think it was an act of betrayl. (or maybe, thought just occured to me,) Raoul and the others told her to do it, as part of thier plan. But, overall, I think she commited the ultimate act of betrayl by ripping his mask off in front of the entire opera house like that.
I don't blame him for being angry. If I had to wear a mask, I'd be mad if somebody just ripped it off like that.
P.G.7.

[RDraconis]

I think it was an act of betrayl. (or maybe, thought just occured to me,) Raoul and the others told her to do it, as part of thier plan. But, overall, I think she commited the ultimate act of betrayl by ripping his mask off in front of the entire opera house like that.
I don't blame him for being angry. If I had to wear a mask, I'd be mad if somebody just ripped it off like that.

I agree with that. The only other time she took it off he basically threw her across the room and went into an angry, self-pitying rage. I don't think doing the exact same thing in front of a GIANT AUDIENCE is really an act of love.

If anything, it revealed to everyone what hte phantom really was. Without his mask, he loses a lot of the mystery that makes people fear him. He's not a phantom, he's not a ghost, he's a man. And people are much less afraid of a man.