Tennessee Williams

[fayefaye]

Anyone want to discuss his plays?

[IWilKikU]

I would love to, now if only I had read any of them

[Stanislaw]

I read the glass menagerie. I didn't mind it but it wasn't my favorite play, it was kind of long and autobiographical. Tennesse struck me as a real Jerk.

[fayefaye]

How so? I read the Glass Menagerie too. ... SPOLLERS






Even if she wasn't supposed to, I would have liked her to end up with Jim.

[ThomasMore]

if by a real jerk you mean that tom is tennessee I can maybe see it (I'm about half way through reading and thought I would see what others thought)... Im studying up on it for a Lit final here at school. But he does seem pretty trapped. Maybe more by his own guilt than anything.... any thoughts from anyone else or some clarification on why you think it is more of an autobiographical work?

[Stanislaw]

If you read the biography of tennesse, you will find similarities. I even belive he said that the story was based upon his life. (don't quote me on that). He abandoned his sister, and in real life he was abnoxiouse to those around him, especially his fans.

[ThomasMore]

It would seem that you are right... my curiosity was piqued so I did a little extra reading. Not only was his father a saleseman that traveled but his mother was an over doting - former - spoiled southern belle. He took a job in a shoe warehouse (at the end of the play tom gets fired for writing a poem on the top of a shoe box). I couldn't find anything about him specifically abandonding his sister, as his father was still around, but she did get a lobotomy due to uncontrolled mental illness (lobotomies were usu. used to treat bi-polar disorder)
My biggest interest in this piece of literature is the trapped feeling that Tom had. It would seem to me that he deffinitely was trapped and that he acted the way he did to escape the vicious cycle of always having to provide for his mother and at the same time never being good enough for her... BUT was he really trapped? it would seem that Jim was in the same position as Tom but didn't feel nearly as powerless or see the need to do something as drastic to improve his situation. How often are the traps of circumstance we find ourselves in realy of our own contrivance?

[fayefaye]

Yeah, I don't think tennessee was a real jerk, but he was perhaps desparate for a way out of his life. I mean, in the play, you could tell tom really did care for his mother and sister, he just didn't want to be stuck there. [and let's face it-his mum was annnoyying]The trap he was in was probably partially of his own contrivance, but also he was in reality partially trapped. Jim was in the factory too, but he was ok with that as long as he could go up-even if it was in the same line of work. Tom just didn't want to be in the factory at all.

[nicholasburrus]

Who was he

[fayefaye]

do you read our posts before you reply nic?

tennessee williams, 1911-1983 was an American author who's fairly well known for his plays. We were just discussing the possible autobiographical content of his play, the Glass Menagerie. Anyone want to discuss the significance of the title also?

[nicholasburrus]

Thank you

[nicholasburrus]

I actually skim I will read them more Throuhly

[fayefaye]

Yeah, you can kinda tell .... you don't skim all that much, do you? :)

[nicholasburrus]

no

[fayefaye]

lol. I noticed.

[nicholasburrus]

I'll start reading it throully no biggy i have a lot of time i like to rush thats all. Thanks for your asvice

[fayefaye]

ok. let's get back on topic.

[nicholasburrus]

Yes very well
Mr. Williams seems pretty good now

[fayefaye]

nah, he's not that good. I just felt like discussing his plays. [which I would still like to do, btw. this is still fairly off-topic]

[ThomasMore]

let me see if I can help...*G*

The glass menagerie obviously refers to the glass animal collection, why that would be the focus of the title is a bit of a reach for me but I did have one thought on the bit about the unicorn loosing it's horn...

In all honesty I don't see how breaking the horn off of a magical creature to make it be just like everyone else 'so that it fits in with all the other horses' is a good thing. Why would you want to loose your magic so you could fit in. However Laura's horn wasn't so magical and her ability to loose her horn as it were would have been an asset as opposed to a liability.

But it wasn't only laura that 'lost a horn' I would say that Tom lost some magic when he left her behind. So... maybe some unicorn horns are magic and some aren't?

[fayefaye]

well, it's definately symbolic. Laura's a bit like the glass menagerie-all beautiful and fragile. Maybe when it breaks it's horn it's not supposed to be losing something special, but perhaps just breaking down the barrier between it and the other animals? Like laura did with jim? I just finished Catcher in the Rye. Have you read it? Holden Caulfield (main character) reminded me a lot of Tom. hmmm ... so what are your thoughts on tom?

We can talk about Tennessee some more, also.

[Stanislaw]

I felt that when the unicorn lost its horn, Laura thought that she would be able to lead a normal life, she said that it wasn't such a freak anymore. When she found out that Jim(?) was to be married she gave him the horse because her chance for a normal life was with him and no other.

I didn't like Tom. His Job sucked, but he had a responsibility to his familly. he broke Lauras menagerie in one of his fits, and left hi helpless sister high and drie. I thought he was a useless self centered coward.

[azmuse]

i liked cat on a hot tin roof...

[fayefaye]

Tom wasn't that bad. He didn't break all the animals in her menagerie and maybe it was symbolic that she had to get over that sort of stuff? Become less fragile? What do you think of Jim?

[fayefaye]

Jim.. 'a symbol of the always expected thing that we wait for' and then he just up and LEAVES?

[fayefaye]

what about streetcar named desire?

[Stanislaw]

Jim was an ***. He makes the moves on laura, and then just when laura is turning normalish, he goes, oops, I am getting married, but thanks for supper.

No wonder he was a friend of Tom.

[fayefaye]

lol. yeah, true. I can't believe he didn't tell her. I mean-what was he thinking?

[Zooey]

Tennessee Williams is without a doubt my favorite playwright, and one of my favorite writers ever. Cat on a Hot Tin Roof is my personal favorite, with A Streetcar Named Desire a close second. I really need to reread The Glass Menagerie which I read several years ago for school, but don't remember more than the barest plot points and the fact that I enjoyed it. Suddenly Last Summer is interesting, but minor (the film version is superior, in my opinion).

What I love about his writing is that he takes what quite easily could be an uninteresting and mundane subject, and through his writing makes them probing and fascinating character studies with dialogue that can't be described as anything but poetry. The man was a genius.

Here's an interesting quote I jotted down from a commentary in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof written by Williams:

"I'm trying to catch the true quality of experience in a group of people, that cloudy, flickering, evanescent - fiercely charged!- interplay of live human beings in the thundercloud of a common crisis."

[fayefaye]

What do you like so much about streetcar?

[Zooey]

Originally posted by fayefaye
What do you like so much about streetcar? Well, I did fall in love with the classic Elia Kazan movie first, so I pictured the brilliant Marlon Brando and Vivien Leigh from the very start.

As for the play itself, I really love the clash of the strong vs. the weak, the animalistic vs. the sophisticated, and reality vs. fantasy. I think it's heartbreaking to experience the crumbling of the mental state of a delusional but essentially good woman.

In Stanley Kowalksi and Blanche du Bois, Williams really created two incredibly complex characters, and that their epic battle of wills is one of the greatest ever conceived, as far as I'm concerned.

[fayefaye]

meh. I didn't think they were that complex. Stanley, in particular.

[Sindhu]

Streecar is my absolute favourite follwed by Cat and Glass menagerie. I did a paer comparing Blanche with the protagonist in
Dunbar's poems. My prof thought I was crazy when I first told her my topic (it was sparked off specifically by the "I know why the caged bird sings" poem) delicate white southern belle and Dunbar!!? But she kind of liked the end product! I think Blanche is an incredible character- there's something about her unfragile frgility that gets to me- something similar on a lesser level with Laura. And IMO Faye, Stanley's complex all right- deceptively so I'm not very sure who's the cat and who the mouse but the cat and mouse game is well- WOW!

[fayefaye]

Sindhu, it is so great to see you posting again. :) This place really lacked that nice little touch of sanity you bring to it. It's become a maaaddd house! How do you think Stan's complex? He kinda just comes off as a big brute. And the thing about Blanche is she strikes you mostly as fragile, and that's sort of just it. Fragile.

[Sindhu]

Ah, but one of the reasons I like this place is because it's a maaaad house, faye!:D
As to Stanley and Blanche- there is more to Stanley than just "animalism". He knows how to hit and exactly where to hit, which spots are vulnerable and how exactly to get at them. That takes quite a lot of smarts- especially when the antagonist is someone like Blanche- don't be too taken in by her "fragility" She's tough all right- and if Stanley hadn't been around, she'd probably have had Stella and the other men hoodwinked in no time. True, circumstances and Stanley prove too much for her in the end, but she puts up quite a fight!

[fayefaye]

'hoodwinked'? :confused:

[Sindhu]

Sindhu :confused: at faye's
:confused: What exactly is the:confused: about faye?

[fayefaye]

Sorry Sindhu, it's been a while since I read it, and I'm not sure what you mean by hoodwinked Stella.

[Shea]

I think she means something like dupped. Am I right?

The mother of The Glass Menagerie and Blanche DuBois remind me of my grandmother only she wasn't raised in the south. All their chatter and subtle mentioned insults really annoy me. That's why I can sympathize a bit with Tom. But he shouldn't have left his responsibility to them.

(sorry, joined the disscussion late.)

[Sindhu]

Originally posted by Shea
[B]I think she means something like dupped. Am I right?


Yep-Duped is exactly what I meant - about her age, her finances, her past in general.

[IWilKikU]

I liked hoodwinked.

[Sindhu]

Thanks- I thought it fitted the case perfectly!:)

[fayefaye]

How old was she supposed to be? *wondering why she'd lie about her age*

[Shea]

She was lying about her age because she was losing her youthful charm. She makes me think of a cross between the mother of the Glass Menagerie and the man from Lolita ( I'm only vaguely familiar with the story). But her youth was going that's why she constantly dimmed the lights.

[fayefaye]

Didn't her descent into insanity sorta mean that she was as confused about her situation? You know, the way she kept talking about that guy who was supposed to be coming *can't really remember* the rich guy? And then they come and take her away? *wondering if I'm thinking of something else*

[fayefaye]

what do you think of streetcar's plot?

[piquant]

Simone De Beauvoir...I know I read something by her...Now what was it?

[fayefaye]

huh? *wondering how this is related to tennessee williams*

[Sindhu]

Originally posted by fayefaye
huh? *wondering how this is related to tennessee williams*
C'mon faye- You should know it's positively unheard of to stay on topic for more than ten messages or so! We've actually gone beyond the limit here!
;)
Actually, I guess we should go back and check the whole thread to see if Simone de beavouir makes a guest appearance earlier, but I'm feeling too lazy at the moment! :)
Sindhu.

[fayefaye]

No, she(?) doesn't. :) c'mon-what of it's plot?

[Sindhu]

Well, WHAT of it's plot? Pretty tightly constructed, Iwould say- but I don't think Williams deserves his ststus as a playwright because of his plots- he was defenitely better at characterization. Streetcar is interesting because of who Blanche and Stanley are- what happens to them is secondary. But there's quite a lot of technical skill displayed in the way the plot evolves from the charcter traits.
Sindhu.

[fayefaye]

yeah, I don't think much of it either. But then again, I didn't really consider Stanley and Blanche to be very complex either. I preferred the characters in Sweet Bird of Youth. I love the quote:
'When monster meets monster, one must give way. AND IT WILL NEVER BE ME' Something like that, spoken by Alexandre del lago.

[IWilKikU]

wait wait wait, now great characters cant appear in plays??? What, do they have to only be found in novels??? Cause Shakespeare wrote some pretty damn good characters: Falstaff, Hamlet, Macbeth, Iago, ect. ect. And they all apeared in plays. People still refer to Shakespeare as a playwrite, right?

[Sindhu]

Originally posted by IWilKikU
wait wait wait, now great characters cant appear in plays??? What, do they have to only be found in novels???
HUH!!?:confused: Now where did that come from? I thought whatn I was saying was that Williams' characterswere so much better than his plots and fayes reply was that she didn't think the characters in this particular case were too great either! Surely the idea was that you DO find great characters in plays! We seem to have got tangled up somewhere along the line!:)
Sindhu.

[IWilKikU]

Originally posted by Sindhu
I don't think Williams deserves his ststus as a playwright because of his plots- he was defenitely better at characterization.

See, the thing is, I was drunk when I read and replied to that. So I was a little confused as to what you really meant. Now that I'm not drunk anymore I see what your saying. :rolleyes: My bad.

[Sindhu]

Originally posted by IWilKikU
:rolleyes: My bad.
:D

[fayefaye]

lol @ kik. hehe

I reread Streetcar, and I can see what you mean about the characterisation and plot. Blanche's descent into craziness was so subtle... sort of surprising. sad, too.

[Sindhu]

Good going faye!:)
Yes, it IS pretty sad.(:

[Cartier789]

i love a streetcar named desire if anyone's interested in talking about that one.

[Lamiq]

I read street car named desire when I was twelve and then I got to study it at school...I think it is THE best play of Williams...
I actually think that Blanche's descent into madness was pretty obvious...I think it was just a question of whether Blanch was going to be saved from her spiraling and if so how...
But on the other hand I always thought there was a poetic dignity in how she accepted her fate...she seemed to have accepted her madness..or rather her difference from the rest of the others.
"I have always looked for strangers for help"
:D

It seemed that in her world, her sanity wasnt questioned....but we never get to see her world...that world inside her mind....only glimps of it...what we see is the world of Stanley and stella...and really,it doesnt appeal at all..

[byquist]

"Night of the Iguana" is my favorite; Richard Burton as Shannon in the movie is perfect casting. He certainly enjoyed playing the role and it has much humor along with the seriousness.

[Sindhu]

It seemed that in her world, her sanity wasnt questioned....but we never get to see her world...that world inside her mind....only glimps of it...what we see is the world of Stanley and stella...and really,it doesnt appeal at all..

Interesting!:confused: I found the play so fascinating mainly because of the revelation of Blanche's inner world and its stark contrast with the real world. I would really be happy if we could have adiscussion about why you think we don't see Blanche's world.
Also, I'm astonished at the comment that Blanche has accepted her madnesss- In my analysis she was trying to do nothing but keep from acknowledging itand even when she finally loses the battle, it is through a kind of last degree self deception.

[loe]

"Night of the Iguana" is my favorite; Richard Burton as Shannon in the movie is perfect casting. He certainly enjoyed playing the role and it has much humor along with the seriousness.

I can't say it better. :)
But I also like the other plays very much - Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, The Glasmenagerie and of course A Streetcar named Desire.

These plays were one of my first books of "real literature" and I also love the film-versions.

Greetings

[Scheherazade]

The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone is one of the best writings I have read.

(Back at university, a friend was supposed to write a paper on Tennessee Williams. He hadn't done any reading so I helped him to come up with a thesis statement to meet his deadline... and he could have got away with it if he hadn't put the author's name as 'Williams Tennessee' because he thought 'no one could have a first name like 'Tennessee'... :-/)

[queenofdreams]

im doing street car named desire for my mocks and igcses its the best play, i also like the characters they're very unique

[kandaurov]

I've only read Not About Nightingails, and disliked it with a passion, for too many reasons to mention. But it was one of his first plays, so I cut him some slack, and I still want to read A Streetcar Named Desire. I'd also be willing to read other plays by him that you find particularly good.

[rachel_bookworm]

I just wrote an essay about 'twoness' in A Streetcar Named Desire. Very interesting research.

Couldn't really figure Stella out in the play though? I think she ends up being the most heroic but ambiguous character in the play.

[kelby_lake]

I love A Streetcar Named Desire. Seen the film? ;)

[rachel_bookworm]

Yes I love the film

I think Marlon Brando plays an excellent Stanley

[kelby_lake]

let me see if I can help...*G*

The glass menagerie obviously refers to the glass animal collection, why that would be the focus of the title is a bit of a reach for me but I did have one thought on the bit about the unicorn loosing it's horn...

In all honesty I don't see how breaking the horn off of a magical creature to make it be just like everyone else 'so that it fits in with all the other horses' is a good thing. Why would you want to loose your magic so you could fit in. However Laura's horn wasn't so magical and her ability to loose her horn as it were would have been an asset as opposed to a liability.


I think because the unicorn is an extinct mythical creature, a bit like laura, because of that horn. It is a bump back to reality for her.

I change my favourites all the time. I do like the wit of Cat, I like Streetcar too but I find Cat less depressing to read. Glass Menagerie is beautiful. Night of The Iguana is very amusing. Orpheus Descending is similarly beautiful and richly symbolic, like glass menagerie. never really cared much for rose tatoo- didn't finish it. Suddenly Last Summer is weird.


I think there are two aspects to Williams writing: the witty and the very dark.