Hip-hop/Rap

[EDTSCS3]

Hi... I'm new here and I was wondering what the "literary community" thinks of the lyricists in the rap genre of music. I personally think that artists like Tupac Shakur and Nassir Jones are creative thinkers that actually deserve some credit when discussed in an "intellectual" sense. Unfortunately, I think people (especially those who are a tad older and haven't given it much of a chance) tend to look at rap with disgust because of the simple and explicit lyrics of the newer artists that are only interested in money and women. I don't think this was/is the case with such rappers as Tupac and Nas... If you think I'm crazy, don't hesitate to tell me--I'm just curious.

[ShoutGrace]

Disgusting and explicit lyrics?

No way! (http://lyrics.rare-lyrics.com/T/Tupac-Shakur/A-Crooked-Nigga-Too.html)

Or, alternately:


eye's on tha prize
finger on tha trigga when a nig*a rides
shootin' craps
bustin' nig*as out tha door
pick my money off tha floor
god bless tha tre-four
stuck on full, drunk again
sippin' on Gin
with a couple of friends
sayin' those thug life nig*as be like major pimps
stickin' to tha rules is what made it simp
and if I die
let it be
but when they come for me
bury me a G


I suspect it is probable that the hip-hop community in general has earned greater literary merit than the 'intellectuals' have given it.

It is probably a racial bias.

[mono]

Hello, EDTSCS3, welcome to the forum. :)
Though, to tell all honesty, I cannot really consider myself a fan of rap and hip-hop music, I still express whatever respect I have for those who have talent, most talent relying on lyrics (a rare virtue among some contemporary rap artists these days). I recall hearing something, actually, that the first intention of rap began with expressing slam-poetry; though not to sound rude, I think the glam, crime, and promiscuity has partially ruined that aim at slam-poetry with most artists.
In retrospect, I remember hearing a song by Tupac calls Changes (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/2pac/changes.html). As I said, I cannot consider myself a big fan, I found the lyrics amiable, interesting, and containing quite a message. ;)

[Sabo]

I don't like the music side of the rap. I doesn't speak to me. The few times I've tried to listen to the [I]lyrics[I] I've been positively surprised by its freshness and innovativity. Sure, there is a lot of words not be mentioned on a forum like this one, but I see that more as a part of the stilistic marker of the genre than as a signifing content.

[genoveva]

Like, with everything, there are some really awesome lyrics, and some that just aren't our taste. I've always enjoyed KRS-ONE's lyrics, and here's one from Tupac:


Liberty Needs Glasses

Liberty Needs Glasses
excuse me but lady liberty needs glasses
and so does mrs justice by her side
both the broads r blind as bats
stumbling thru the system
justice bumbed into mutulu and
trippin on geronimo pratt
but stepped right over oliver
and his crooked partner ronnie

justice stubbed her big toe on mandela
and liberty was misquoted by the indians
slavery was a learning phase
forgotten with out a verdict
while justice is on a rampage
4 endangered surviving black males
i mean really if anyone really valued life
and cared about the masses
theyd take em both 2 pen optical
and get 2 pair of glasses

Written by Tupac Shakur (1971-1996)

[genoveva]

I remember hearing a song by Tupac calls Changes (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/2pac/changes.html).

Thanks for this- Now I want to hear the song sung! :banana: :thumbs_up

[genoveva]

It is probably a racial bias.
:confused: What is?

[EDTSCS3]

Sure, there is a lot of words not be mentioned on a forum like this one, but I see that more as a part of the stilistic marker of the genre than as a signifing content.

Yeah... I definitely agree with you here. I think that I have a problem with people dismissing literature and art just because of its explicitness. (is that a word?) And I want to say that most rap, especially today, is terrible, not creative, and totally lacking any sort of meaning at all. (in my opinion) But, even in "Bury Me a G" that was posted here, I believe Tupac is giving a message of a fallen or tragic hero. I don't think he's promoting the vulgar ideals in his lyrics. Instead, he's using the reality of how he lived (lives) to show how bad it was.

I guess the bottom line is that I don't believe literature and art should be shunned by society only because of explicitness. If a person can use vulgar content to convey a message through creativity, I don't see a problem with that.

[Ryduce]

Dear Mama by Tupac is probably one of the greatest songs I've ever heard.Though I'm not a fan of most rap music,some of Tupac's songs are heavy,and Dear Mama is a prime example.

[Virgil]

I suspect it is probable that the hip-hop community in general has earned greater literary merit than the 'intellectuals' have given it.

It is probably a racial bias.
Oh, I wouldn't go that far. No pop music or pop art is given any credit by the intellectual community. It doesn't have anythng to do with race. And how can you say there is no violence or explicit lyrics? They have a special term called "gangsta rap." I don't really listen to it, but when I've caught a video on TV, it was pretty explicit to me.

[ShoutGrace]

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. No pop music or pop art is given any credit by the intellectual community. It doesn't have anythng to do with race. And how can you say there is no violence or explicit lyrics? They have a special term called "gangsta rap." I don't really listen to it, but when I've caught a video on TV, it was pretty explicit to me.

Virgil, I was being entirely sarcastic. :D I posted the violent and explicit lyrics to evidence that aim; my statement is hopefully glaringly contradictory to the nature of the lyrics that I posted.

Perhaps we need to differentiate between 'gangsta rap' and 'hip hop'. The rhythm and beat of hip hop music is not altogether offensive to me; the lyrics are. I find the explicitness degrading. I find the themes and values presented therein to be counterproductive and demeaning; hurtful and shallow.

[Virgil]

Virgil, I was being entirely sarcastic. :D I posted the violent and explicit lyrics to evidence that aim; my statement is hopefully glaringly contradictory to the nature of the lyrics that I posted.

:lol: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't pick up on it. Silly me. :redface:

[genoveva]

in "Bury Me a G" that was posted here, I believe Tupac is giving a message of a fallen or tragic hero. I don't think he's promoting the vulgar ideals in his lyrics. Instead, he's using the reality of how he lived (lives) to show how bad it was.

He's writing what he knows. For this reason and more make him a very effective poet.



I guess the bottom line is that I don't believe literature and art should be shunned by society only because of explicitness. If a person can use vulgar content to convey a message through creativity, I don't see a problem with that.

There is lots of vulgarity and explicitness in much of great literature. Take the Marque de Sade for example.

[EDTSCS3]

There is lots of vulgarity and explicitness in much of great literature. Take the Marque de Sade for example.

Thank you... someone that finally thinks like me ;)

[EDTSCS3]

Perhaps we need to differentiate between 'gangsta rap' and 'hip hop'. The rhythm and beat of hip hop music is not altogether offensive to me; the lyrics are. I find the explicitness degrading. I find the themes and values presented therein to be counterproductive and demeaning; hurtful and shallow.

I respect that stand whole-heartedly. And as I said before, a lot of the artists (especially the newer ones) do communicate the hurtful and shallow themes you speak of. However, I think people like Tupac Shakur convey deeper messages than the lyrics send upon first glance.

I guess the question I'm really asking here is: is art bad if it has explicitness in it? And if so, is there a way to draw the line between "too explicit" and "acceptable explicitness?"

[ShoutGrace]

:confused: What is?

I was just being facetious. I was obviating the notion that people denounce rap music for racial reasons; they avoid and decry such filth because of it's nature, and do so regardless of what skin color it's creators have.


There is lots of vulgarity and explicitness in much of great literature.

It is not just the explicitness that disturbs and offends me - it is the combination of the explicitness and the devalued, basic, and shameful topics.

I am not willing to compare rap lyrics with any form of literature.



And as I said before, a lot of the artists (especially the newer ones) do communicate the hurtful and shallow themes you speak of. However, I think people like Tupac Shakur convey deeper messages than the lyrics send upon first glance.


Could you please explain the following lyrics for me? I would like to understand the deeper meanings.




It's like I tell my niggaz, keep your eyes on these *****es
They love to G a nigga young dumb and gettin riches
What the **** you think a trick is nigga
Nigga done stick and wet his d**k
and then get tricked out all his riches by a -- *****!
I'm here to school you to the rules of the game, it'll cost ya
Think you alla that just cause she let a nigga toss her
It's like a mother****in priveledge
So don't give up your conversation, give that ***** your 7 digits
When she call ya, ask that tramp whassup
And if she hesitate, nigga hang up, worrrd up
And let that ***** meditate to the dial tone
And call me when you're ready to bone, and it's on
A mother****ing mack tonight
Stay that stay strapped cause my raps is tight
You ****in punks, I hate you snitches
Went against the grain and the game to be fake *** *****es

(God, damn! You can't just hit them niggaz with that game
and expect them to accept it; girl your heard me it gets skanless.
But we gonna kick this **** like this here)


I can't stand it, hoes talkin bout they got a man
**** all I wanted her to do is suck my D**K
So how about hittin a mother****er on my pager
Busy now ***** but you can give me the pussy later
Fly how I fade her, played her like a game of Sega
****in with the player that done made her, huh
And I ain't sleepin caught you creepin for my money
Got the d**k and now you get the pistol honey (*****)
So get the bozack, knockin hoes back, keep my dough stacked
So where the mother****in hoes at?
Punk niggaz can't fade the mack, livin fat
Gettin paid to rap, it's like that, you mother****in *****es



Rap music glorifies misogynism, dipsomania, crime, sex, drugs, etc. etc.

It promulgates the above ideas constantly and alluringly. There is no redeeming aspect of it; it is altogether deleterious. There may be a few exceptions to the rule; they are few and far between, and they are no match for the plethora of disgusting and volatile material spewed forth by the rap industry every year.



He's writing what he knows. For this reason and more make him a very effective poet.

His writing, producing, recording, selling, and diffusing of sexist, racist, offensive and delinquent material made him a very effective moneymaker. That is the bottom line: money.

[Sabo]

is art bad if it has explicitness in it?

No! As genoveva wrote, there is planty of fine art that is explicit, not to mention all those works that were considered immoral when written and that most people today wouldn't consider as such.

[mono]

I guess the question I'm really asking here is: is art bad if it has explicitness in it? And if so, is there a way to draw the line between "too explicit" and "acceptable explicitness?"
No, no, no, art does not appear 'bad' if it seems explicit. Other people may have some very skeptical feelings of it, or share some disgust with lyrics or literature, but a part of the definition of art, I believe, relies greatly upon self expression. Assuming that no two people have similar lives and similar experiences, this can immensely alter their self expression.
If you desire to speak of an explicit nature in literature, try reading Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs. I can never describe how offensive, mind-twisting, and disturbing it gets, but, deep (very deep) inside of the book, I must respect its art, Burroughs' oddly unique self expression, and its obvious deviance. I hold the same position for some rap and hip-hop lyrics; as with Burroughs, I may not have the ability to relate or share similar experiences of self expression, but still see the elements of art. :)

[EDTSCS3]

Rap music glorifies misogynism, dipsomania, crime, sex, drugs, etc. etc.

Can't you see the logical fallacy of generalization you're using here? You're using one song to prove your point that rap altogeter glorifies those themes... I never said every song in the industry should be put in school textbooks. Here are a few off the top of my head that I consider to be very creative, thought provoking poems put to a beat...

My Block-2pac
Keep ya Head up-2pac
Brenda's Got a Baby-2pac
Changes-2pac
Better Dayz-2pac
Unconditional Love-2pac
Life Goes On-2pac
Dance-NaS
I Can-NaS
Mockingbird-Eminem
Lose Yourself-Eminem
When I'm Gone-Eminem

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. In short, I think the rap genre of music has a lot to offer its listeners. Unfortunately, people automatically associate it with vulgarity and unintelligent lyrics. I think there is too much good in this genre to totally dismiss it as a whole...

[ShoutGrace]

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. In short, I think the rap genre of music has a lot to offer its listeners. Unfortunately, people automatically associate it with vulgarity and unintelligent lyrics. I think there is too much good in this genre to totally dismiss it as a whole...

Surely we can't dismiss the genre as a whole; that is, depending on which genre we are talking about. In my opinion, 'Gangsta Rap' can be dismissed. Perhaps the songs you posted don't fall into that category; perhaps they can be called simply 'Rap'.

I guess my original intention in posting in this thread was to offer my view on Tupac's lyrics. On the whole, I haven't found them poetic or inspiring; many of them, to me, are exactly as I described them above. That doesn't mean that some of them aren't of a different quality.

I was thinking of your words :


Unfortunately, I think people (especially those who are a tad older and haven't given it much of a chance) tend to look at rap with disgust because of the simple and explicit lyrics of the newer artists that are only interested in money and women.

I guess I am one of those people. I do think that the majority of Tupac's lyrics (and the newer artist's) are simple and explicit.


You're using one song to prove your point that rap altogeter glorifies those themes...

The song I posted there I hoped would illustrate the nature of the majority of Tupac's lyrics. My quoting that song pertained to your statement that I held above it; the off topic diatribe that followed was another matter altogether. I apologize if that wasn't clear enough. I posted that song merely because you had said that :


However, I think people like Tupac Shakur convey deeper messages than the lyrics send upon first glance.

On the whole, I disagree.

I don't wish to be argumentative. In the end, I suppose that my opinion of Tupac's lyrics as a whole, rap music, and gangsta rap music, will be largely my own and entirely subjective.

[Sabo]

Rap music glorifies misogynism,

I think B Spears is a much worse potential threat :) No voice, no music, selling on a certain appeal, affects dressing and other attitudes of young girls. Much worse in my eyes, not to mention my suffering ears. :D


try reading Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs

Yes! A great book.

[genoveva]

I guess the question I'm really asking here is: is art bad if it has explicitness in it? And if so, is there a way to draw the line between "too explicit" and "acceptable explicitness?"

My answer is no. Explicitness in art is not an automatic label for "bad art". Take much of Salvador Dali's paintings as another example of explicitness in art.

I think the line between "too explicit" and "acceptable explicitness" is a sign of the times.

[genoveva]

I am not willing to compare rap lyrics with any form of literature.



This type of closed mindedness is not constructive for critical analysis nor comparing literature.

[genoveva]

Here's one by KRS-ONE:

Artist: Boogie Down Productions
Album: By Any Means Necessary
Song: Stop the Violence

Worldwide BDP are the freshest!
Worldwide! Worldwide! Worldwide!

One two three, the crew is called BDP
and if you want to go to the tip top
stop the violence in hip-hop, Y-O

Time and time again, as I pick up the pen
as my thoughts emerge, these are those words
I glance at the paper to know what's going on
someone's doing wrong, the story goes on
Mary Lue's had a baby someone else decapitated
the drama of the world shouldn't keep us so frustrated
I look, but it doesn't coincide with my books
social studies when I speak upon political crooks
It's just the presidents, and all the money they spent
all the things they invent and how the house is so immaculate
They paid missiles, my family's eating gristle
then they get upset when the press blows the whistle
Of course the main profiles are kept low
you temper with some jobs, now the press is controlled
Not only newspapers, but every single station
you only get to hear the president is on vacation
But ehrm, stay calm, there's no need for alarm
You say "go back" to your mom, and you're off to Vietnam
You shoot to kill, come back and you're a veteran
but how many veterans are out there pedaling?
There's no telling, 'cause they continue selling
As quiet as it's kept, I won't go into depth
You can talk about Nigeria, people used to laugh at ya.
Now I take a look, I say "USA for Africa?!"

Huh.
What's the solution, to stop all this confusion?
Rewrite the constitution, change the drug which you're using
Rewrite the constitution or the emancipation proclamation
we fight inflation, yet the president's still on vacation

BDP posse!
I say: one two three, the crew is called BDP
And if you wanna go to the tip top
stop the violence in the hip-hop, Y-O

This might sound a little strange to you
well here's the reason I came to you
We gotta put our heads together, and stop the violence
Cause real bad boys move in silence
When you're in a club, you come to chill out
not watch someones blood just spill out
That's what these other people want to see
another race fight endlessly
You know we're being watched, you know we're being seen
Some wish to destroy this scene called hip-hop
But I won't drop
not I or Scott LaRock
Now here is the message that we bring today:
hip-hop will surely decay
if we as a people don't stand up and say:
"Stop the violence!"
"Stop the violence!"
"Stop the violence!"
"Stop the violence!"
"Stop the violence!"

I say: one two three, the crew is called BDP
And if you wanna go to the tip top
stop the violence in the hip-hop, Y-O

BDP and me
we step into the party top celebrity
Say when we're coming to dance, we never have to pay a fee
Cause that's where we got R-E-S-P-E-C-T
I have this one wife, her name is Miss Melody
I know I'm from the Bronx, she from the Brooklyn posse
I tell ya look a little like this, then I tell you some that I
Sometimes I got my gear on, sometimes I wear a hat
Sometimes I'm in a Mercedes and sometimes I'm in a plain
Sometimes I find myself upon the number two train
Some people look at me and see negativity
some people look at me and see positivity
But when I see myself I see creativity
So if I can create, well then I make some money
Sha man, just put your hands up if you're out here gettin' paid
Sha man, just put your hands up if you're out here gettin' paid
One two three, the crew is called BDP
And if you wanna go to the tip top
stop the violence in the hip-hop, Y-O

[genoveva]

One of my favorites by KRS-ONE:

Artist: Boogie Down Productions
Album: Ghetto Music: The Blueprint of Hip Hop
Song: Who Protects Us From You?
Typed by: OHHLA.com

Verse

(Fy-ah! Come down fas'...)

You were put here to protect us
But who protects us from you?
Every time you say "That's illegal"
Doesn't mean that that's true (Uh-huh)
Your authority's never questioned
No-one questions you
If I hit you I'll be killed
But you hit me? I can sue (Order! Order!)
Lookin' through my history book
I've watched you as you grew
Killin' blacks and callin' it the law
(Bo! Bo! Bo!) And worshipping Jesus too
There was a time when a black man
Couldn't be down wit' your crew (Can I have a job please?)
Now you want all the help you can get
Scared? Well ain't that true (You goddamn right)
You were put here to protect us
But who protects us from you?
Or should I say, who are you protecting?
The rich? the poor? Who?
It seems that when you walk the ghetto
You walk wit' your own point of view (Look at that gold chain)
You judge a man by the car he drives
Or if his hat match his shoe (Yo, you lookin' kinda fresh)
Well, back in the days of Sherlock Holmes
A man was judged by a clue
Now he's judged by if he's Spanish,
Black, Italian or Jew
So do not kick my door down and tie me up
While my wife cooks the stew (You're under arrest!)
Cos you were put here to protect us
But who protects us from you?

(A public service announcement brought to you by the scientists of
Boogie Down Productions. Fy-ah! Come again...)

[genoveva]

Another great one by KRS-ONE:

Artist: Boogie Down Productions
Album: Edutainment
Song: The Racist
Typed by: OHHLA.com

Verse

I've been taught to respect my elders and behave
Even if when they were young they sold slaves
Truth and understandin' is what I crave
In the land of the thief, home of the slave
Turn your page to a brief demonstration
Cos now in '90 it's strictly information I'm givin'
Teachin' on a regular basis
Today's lecture is about The Racist
We're not out to exaggerate or diss him
But show the symptoms and facts of racism
Understand The Racist ain't equal
There's about five different types of racist people
First of the five different types of cases
Is the individual brought up racist
Here you have young men and women
Brought up in the Great White Way opinion
This opinion introduced by the parent
To the civilised becomes transparent
The civilised man could look through the faces
Make the analysis and see The Racist
Number two case which y'all must hear
Is the individual racist out of fear
Here you have people that fear the African
And conjure up new ways of trappin' him
Number three is the unconscious racist
Not knowin' they're racist they invade your spaces
They say, "I'm not a racist, I'm not a bigot"
Yet they allow it to go on and won't admit it
Number four is the money racist
The one that used the topics of sheer economics
They say, "Owning a business isn't for the black man
He don't want that", yet they went and took his land
Damn, that's like a rock in a hard place
You don't have your land yet this ain't your space
America was built by every other race
Except the European that runs this place
What a waste, America's doomed
To be overthrown by the righteous real soon
But last but not least racial prejudice
Is the black man speakin' out of ignorance
Whitey this and Ching-Chow that
Is not how the intelligent man acts
You can't blame the whole white race
For slavery, cos this ain't the case
A large sum of white people died with black
Tryin' hard to fight racial attacks
The media wants you to think that no whites
Really fought and died for Civil Rights
But once we have a true sense of history
You'll see this too as a mystery
If black and white didn't argue the most
They could clearly see the government's screwin' 'em both.

[genoveva]

Try this one by KRS-ONE:

Artist: KRS-One f/ Channel Live
Album: KRS-One
Song: Free Mumia
Typed by: OHHLA Webmaster DJ Flash

Knowledge, where the people at?
Free Mumia!
Channel Live! (KRS-One, come and represent)
(The wisdom)
Hah hah hah hah hah hahaha!
Free Mumia!

Everywhere I look there's another house negro
Talkin about they people and how they should be equal
They talkin but the conversation ain't goin nowhere
You can't diss hip-hop, so don't you even go there
C. Delores Tucker, you wanna quote the scripture
Everytime you hear nigga, listen up sista

Verse One: Hakim, KRS, Tuffy

I met up with this girl named Delores, a prankster
I said I MC, she said, "You're a gangster"
But she was caught up, she hit the floor like a breakdance
Wrapped her up like the arms in a b-boy stance
Recognize moms I'm one of your sons I'm hip-hop
in the form of Channel Live and KRS-One
Representin MC's across America
She said, "You're the one who be causin all that mass hysteria"

Wisdom shall come out of the mouths of babes and sucklings
But you blinded by cultural ignorance and steady judging
But judge not, lest ye may be judged
For the judgment ye judge ye shall surely be judged, you gets no love

She said, "I like it, that's why I jock it"
Then I said, "You only on my back because I fill brother's pockets"
Got em drivin Benzes Jeeps and Rolls Royces
Attackin me will leave youth with no voices
The choice is yours not mine hang with me
I'll have you freestyle and bombin graffiti
We can cut it up like like wax
Claimin I cause violence but America was violent before rap, FACT

Chorus: KRS-One

Warner, Elektra, Atlantic equals WEA
Instead of fighting them why don't you go free Mumia
(repeat 2X)

Verse Two: Tuffy, KRS, Hakim

Wild recital, I kicks the vital, like the _Final
Call_ as I watch, Babylon fall
I had to Rush Limbaugh, get that pig with an axe
Tuffy dips to the side, buckin cannons that's phat
Because he censors the uses of the metaphor
You can get the dick bum up
Because it's you that brings the, real horrorcore
Expenditures forgettin, gut from the poor

Why sure! Back before we were born they sold us out
Yeah Dade Jackson we know what you about
Youse a Slave Mason, not a Free Mason
Before long the Goddess Tiamat through hip-hop you'll be facin
Don't start me, cause I be the, lyricist
At the nineteen ninety-nine millenium party held at Giza
Sayin he's a, fraud, oh my Goddess
Never in your life should you disrespect an artist
Instead, focus your attention on astronomy
And the up and coming, shift in the economy
If you can't do that, then heed the final call
To free Mumia, Abu-Jamal

Hate to be so rough, it could be the White Owls
House niggaz are full of crap, like my Colin Powell
Kickin vowels, is how we relieve the tension
Until we start to bounce white people like suspension (revolution)
You paint the pictures, the black man on the corner
But tell me, who blew up Oklahoma?
The City, ain't no pity, for the beast
It's Hakim that voice from the East

Chorus

Verse Three: KRS, Hakim, Tuffy

Buck buck! Buck buck buck!
It sound like gunshots but it could be the plot
of a chicken, definition, is what you're missin and
listen to your children instead of dissin em
Senator Dole doesn't understand the young people
Like they be sayin want to, but we be sayin wanna
They gettin dumber every summer as they walk the rope
Maybe because they cannot understand the quotes

Word, in actuality, this Norman Bates mentality
always seems to represent, minus three-sixty percent
For degrees full circle, dead from the purple
rays of the sun I gots melanin so check it
Bag your nuts quick or get sick from being naked
Suspect it, was it a means for the end
For just a few to drive the Benz while you eat the pigskins
Turned you into mannequins, cause the trick of technology
A revelation, revalations
Sensation gives me inspiration of revolution
That's my solution, there will be no sequels
I'm audi hundred forty four thousand with my people

From Caligula to Hitler, now it's Schwartzeneggar
A lust for the violence is the science of their behavior
Who enslaved ya (it's the Devil) but the God of virtuosity
And of the world created, could it be mental sodomy
Got my mind twisted like the blades of fonta leaf
I sit in disbelief as he crawls underneath
the rock **** back the glock, cause I don't trust
the Devil I rebel until Babylon is dust

Chorus

[Petrarch's Love]

I suspect it is probable that the hip-hop community in general has earned greater literary merit than the 'intellectuals' have given it.

No pop music or pop art is given any credit by the intellectual community.

While it's certainly not a staple of every English Department, I've noticed that rap, hip hop, and other popular music does seem to get more attention than people might imagine in the intellectual community. Many top notch schools have begun to offer courses on things like "The History of Hip Hop," and professors (including at least one in my English Department) sometimes include rap pieces in their syllabi for courses on modern poetry, modern music and modern cultural studies. Tupac alone has had books and articles written on himself and his work, and Harvard held a symposium in 2003 to discuss the life and work of Tupac Shakur (see link here (http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/04.24/11-hiphop.html) ). The Black Studies department at University of California Berkely also had a course dedicated to Tupac for at least a few years (I'm not sure if it's still ongoing). My own university held a conference on Feminisim and Hip Hop last year (link here (http://csrpc.uchicago.edu/fhhc/conference_description.shtml) ) to debate the influences of Hip Hop on our culture and its place as an art. I didn't get to attend myself, but I heard from a friend that it was absolutely packed and full of very lively discussion. Regardless of your views on this subject, it has been a tremendous influence on American culture for the last twenty years and people are interested in talking about that.

[EDTSCS3]

The song I posted there I hoped would illustrate the nature of the majority of Tupac's lyrics. My quoting that song pertained to your statement that I held above it; the off topic diatribe that followed was another matter altogether. I apologize if that wasn't clear enough. I posted that song merely because you had said that :



On the whole, I disagree.

I don't wish to be argumentative. In the end, I suppose that my opinion of Tupac's lyrics as a whole, rap music, and gangsta rap music, will be largely my own and entirely subjective.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your use of that song, and I guess this will have to be one of those situations in which we'll have to agree to disagree. I made this thread knowing there would be different opinions and I actually thought there would be more people that think like you do. You definitely make a great case against gangsta rap, but let me ask one more question: I grew up around rap and to be honest it's the only style of music I know well. I'm still young and honestly looking to branch out... Do you know anybody that has thought provoking lyrics that aren't nauseatingly emotional or shallow? If so, could you give me the name of the artist and style? (I guess this goes for anyone not just ShoutGrace) thank you

[EDTSCS3]

Here's one by KRS-ONE:

Dang those lyrics are nice... I didn't realize KRS was that good cuz he stays predominantly underground. Those are nice

[rabid reader]

Not a big fan of rap because I find little message being sent, but I like to sit here and defend 2-Pac a member of the modern Civil Rights movement and a victum of a blind society. He often used his voice as an outlet to express his veiws and he then often used it to sell records. I like to take a quote out of his song To Live and Die in LA (http://www.lyricstime.com/2-pac-to-live-die-in-la-lyrics.html)


To Live and Die in LA[/I]]Cost me more to be free than a life in the penn
Making money off of cuss words--writin’ again
Learn how to think ahead--so I fight with my pen
Late night down sunset like in a sin
What’s the worst they could do to a n****
Get me lost in hell--to live and die in la
On bail--my angels sing...

Or a power lyric that has been stuck in my mined since I heard it when I was twelve, from the song http://www.lyrics007.com/2%20Pac%20Lyrics/Changes%20Lyrics.html


Changes[/I]]I see no changes wake up in the morning and I ask myself
is life worth living should I blast myself?
I'm tired of bein' poor & even worse I'm black
my stomach hurts so I'm lookin' for a purse to snatch
Cops give a damn about a n*****
pull the trigger kill a n**** he's a hero

Or from the same song


Changes[/I]]And still I see no changes can't a brother get a little peace
It's war on the streets & the war in the Middle East
Instead of war on poverty they got a war on drugs
so the police can bother me
And I ain't never did a crime I ain't have to do
But now I'm back with the blacks givin' it back to you
Don't let 'em jack you up, back you up,
crack you up and pimp smack you up
You gotta learn to hold ya own

If I remember correctly this was his last single before he was killed. This is one of the most powerful songs written in the 90s, and it was given to us from a man who dedicated his life to help rally a forgotten and often discrimnated people. He questions the misplaced morals of our society, "Instead of war on poverty they got a war on drugs" earily in this thread someone mentioned that all he did was support misgonism, sex, drugs & voilance, what people fail to relize is that the people he's talking to are not you or I, they are poor, sometimes straving people who we don't even think exist because of our sheltered midclass lives.

Kids the same age as myself, being in gun fights to defend or take the most insignifagant peices of proporty because thats all they have. He seems to support that life style, but then you see songs like these and you think no 2-Pac is telling them how to survive those life styles. Ivf you don't like what he "supports" then change the situation that breeds thast mantality. Drug running, "pimping", theif, voilance, these are the jobs that we allow these capable men and women to have, so if you disagreee with what they have to do, then "Let's see some changes."

[genoveva]

Another awesome rap group, The Coup from Oakland, California:

The Coup Underdog lyrics

(chorus)
This is for my folkers who got bills overdue
This is for my folkers, um, check one two
This is for my folkers who never lived like a hog
Me and you, toe to toe, I got love for the underdog
*repeat chorus*
I raise this glass for the ones who die meaninglessly
And the newborns who get fed intravenously
Somebody's mom caught a job and a welfare fraud case
When she breathe she swear it feels like plastic wrap around her face
Lights turned off and its the third month the rent is late
Thoughts of being homeless, crying till you hyperventilate
Despair permeates the air then sets in your ear
The kids play with that one toy they learned how to share
Coming home don't never seem to be a celebration
Bills they piled up on the coffee table like they're decorations
Big ol' spoons of peanut butter, big *** glass of water
Makes the hunger subside, save the real food for your daughter
You feel like swingin haymakers at a moving truck
You feel like laughing so it seems like you don't give a ****
You feel like getting so high you smoke a whole damn crop
You feel like crying but you think that you might never stop
Homes with no heat stiffen your joints like arthritis
If this was fiction, it'd be easier to write this
Some folks try to front like they so above you
They'd tear this mother****er up if they really loved you
*chorus*
There's certain tricks of the trade to try and hault your defeat
Like taking tupperware to an all you can eat
Returning used **** for new saying you lost your receipt
And writing four figure checks when your accounts deplete
Then all your problems pile up about a mile up
Thinkin about a partner you can dial up to help you out this foul stuff
Whole family sleepin on a futon while you're clippin coupons
Eatin salad tryin to get full off the croutons
'Crosstown, the situation is identical
Somebody's getting strangled by the system and its tentacles
Misconceptions raise questions to be solved
Alot of b-boys are broke, alot of homeless got jobs
You can make 8 bones an hour till you pass out and still be assed out
Most pyramid schemes don't let you cash out
They say this generation makes the harmony pray
But crime rises consistent with the povery rate
You take the workers and jobs, you're gonna have murders and mobs
A gang of preachers screamin sermons over murmurs and sobs
Saying pray for a change from the Lord above you
They'd tear this mother****er up if they really loved you
*chorus*
You like this song cause it relates, it's you in this rhyme
We go to stores that only let us in two at a time
We live in places where it costs to get your check cashed
Arguements about money usually drown out the tec blasts
Work six days a week, can't sleep Saturdays though
Muscles tremblin like a pager when the battery's low
And you just don't know where the years went
Although every long shift feels like a year spent
And you can write your resume, but it wouldn't even mention
All the life lessons learned doing six years of detention
Or how you learned the police was just some handicappers
On the ground next to broken glass and candy wrappers
Now don't accept my collects on the phone
Just hit me at the house so I know I ain't alone
And we can chop it up about this messed up system
Homies that's been killed, how we always gonna miss them
It's almost impossible survivin on this fraction
Sip a 40 to the brain for the chemical reaction
You gotta hustle cause they're tryin to push and shove you
I'll tear this mother****er up since I really love you
*chorus*

[genoveva]

Here's another by The Coup:

The Coup Ghetto Manifesto lyrics

[* People talking *]
[Boots]
I write my lyrics on parking tickets and summons to the court
I scribbled this on an application for county support
I practice this like a sport
Met Donald Trump and he froze up
Standing on his Bentley yelling Pimps down, hoes up
Some tryin' to front off
Break her *** a clump off
We gon' stop the world and make y'all mother****ers jump off
This is my resume slash resignation
A ransom note with proposed legislation
A fevered ultimatum you should take it verbatim
Cause I got two bangin' pieces and you don't wanna date em'
Flyin' kites for my folks at home
Who takin' tokes alone
We payin' rent on **** they ain't even sposed to own
Narratin' through my verse, agitatin' when ya curse
It's a million mother****ers just waitin' on the first
Anticipatin' on the worst, wanna weightin' up ya purse
Shook the jobby job down at noon and don't disperse
They wouldn't pay ya *** as far as they can throw you
They think you punkin' but they don't know you
Dissin' turf operata, play with twelve shot berettas
Buy the Burger King workers and we slappin' on ya lettuce
Wrote that in the back of those apartments
A coupon from agricultural departments
When we put down the X-O, we can let the threats go
And start ****, it's the ghetto manifesto
[Chorus x2]
That's what I'm talking about
Make me scream and shout
East, West, North, and South
Gonna turn this party out
Hey, hey
[* People talking *]
[Boots]
Call me bird cause of my legs but my *** don't sing
Got a house arrest anklet but it don't bling bling
The homie with a cell but that **** don't ring
But at lights out bars clang and souls get stang
Now it's the hustlin' sound, trick where they muscle around blacks
Make ya thoughts heavy, drop a joint and make the ground crack
Even renowned historians have found that
The people only bounce back when they pound back
So I take out a spray can and paste the pavement
Defacin' gravements of a sufferin' nation
The files are flagrant and that's the fragrance
I overheard them askin' vagrance for patients
So check the liner notes, I steal my finer quotes
For d-boys tryin' to flow them Gucci's and designer boats
And party liner jokes and all kinds of folks
Who all kind of broke
But bought twenties cause they feel like a lot of smoke
The trees we got lifted by made our feet dangle
So when I say burn one I mean the Star-Spangled
Let's all get high from the income angle
Bump this at the party even if it ain't the single
Here's a slum serenade, on razor blades and grenades
By nannies and maids who be polishin' the suede
You could let the sess blow but let's make the sets grow
Into brigades with the ghetto manifesto
[Chorus x2]
[* People talking *]

[genoveva]

Not a big fan of rap because I find little message being sent, but I like to sit here and defend 2-Pac a member of the modern Civil Rights movement and a victum of a blind society.

I appreciate your post and defense of 2-Pac, however, it is your first phrase which makes me go "huh?" :confused: "Not a big fan of rap because I find little message being sent". Your entire post describes a very big message being sent, and is just fraction of issues and themes beign sung about. Are you only a fan of music that sends large messages? Or, perhaps you are not a fan of rap because it has too much bass and just isn't your type of music?

I own few rap albums and am not a big fan myself simply because it is just not my prefered style of listening or dancing music (give me The Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd or Bob Dylan any day) Still, I have a high respect for the art form. And, yes, sometimes I do get in the mood for certain songs, like KRS-ONE's "Take me to a higher level". :banana:

[rabid reader]

I appreciate your post and defense of 2-Pac, however, it is your first phrase which makes me go "huh?" :confused: "Not a big fan of rap because I find little message being sent". Your entire post describes a very big message being sent, and is just fraction of issues and themes beign sung about. Are you only a fan of music that sends large messages? Or, perhaps you are not a fan of rap because it has too much bass and just isn't your type of music?

I own few rap albums and am not a big fan myself simply because it is just not my prefered style of listening or dancing music (give me The Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd or Bob Dylan any day) Still, I have a high respect for the art form. And, yes, sometimes I do get in the mood for certain songs, like KRS-ONE's "Take me to a higher level". :banana:

I said "not a big fan" I enjoy deep and enjoyable lryics and lets face it with the expection of K-os, Nas and T-Pac and sometimes Emiumim(or however he likes to spell it) those type of lyrics are hard to find.

[JackKerouac]

The thing you people seem to miss is that hiphop is so much more than gangster-mentality and MTV. The rap you're talking about is, in the eyes of hiphop listeners like only mentioning Dan Brown and Stephen King when talking about literature.
There is a deeper side, a side that people do not see unless they dig a bit. This side is called underground hiphop.

Let me quote;



Atmosphere - The Woman With The Tattooed Hands

I used to know this woman who had the most beautiful
tattooes on the top sides of both of her hands
She was forty-three years old and as far as I know
had never yet been with a man
It's not that she wasn't attractive;
she was beautiful, but it was the way that she interacted
She was aggresively passive to the point where she
would've intimidated any mitt that ever tried to catch it
on the right hand she had a tattooe of a nude girl
she claimed it is what God resembled
but on the left she had a mirrored image of the same female
and this one she explained looked like the devil
I remember once watching her touch her own breasts
how the tattooes smiled as they stared down her stomach
as if anticipating when they'd be allowed to caress
the sweet flower that they both seemed too hungry (sweet flower)
Now maybe I was high but it felt so right
heaven and hell both take to this woman's womb
It didn't make sense how she could commence
touching herself with me wide awake in the same room
but if I've learned anything in my years (my years)
I learned I no longer believe in surprise (in surprise)
but what happened next damn near stold my tears
the tattooes came alive right in front of my eyes
they both slowly stood up and climbed off her hands
and showed me why she never took some time with a man
they climbed deep inside of this woman's garden
she closed her eyes and she gently bit her bottom lip
I stepped I left and I don't regret leaving
and I'd never forget all the things I saw that evening
a glimpse of religion a piece of coming closer
to understanding more about what intrigues me most
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn
so now I keep my eyes open hoping to take in all I can
about women taking in all she can
And for as long as I breathe I'll save receipt in my memory
for that woman with the tattooed hands

(Chorus: repeat 5x till song fades)
There's good and evil in each individual fire
Identifies needs and feeds our desire
As long as we keep our spirit inspired
She can bite her bottom lip all she wants

Or for something a little different



Aesop Rock - Daylight

Yo...put one up shackle me, not clean logic procreation
I did not invent the wheel I was the crooked spoke adjacent
While the triple sixers lassos keep angels roped in the basement
I walk the block with a halo and a stick poking your patience
Ya'll catch a 30 second flash visual
Dirty cooperative Neptune blue head hurt splits
Ridiculous fathom the splicing of first generation
**** up or trickle down anti hero smack (Cracking!)
I paste the game to zero all completion green (Splash!)
Took an early retirement pick a dream
American nightmare hogging the screen
I'll hold the door open so you can stumble in
and you would stop following me around the jungle gym
Now it's an honor and I spell it with the 'H' I stole from heritage
Marry crutch stolen wretched refuge refuse my teaming resonance
I promise temperance storm breed with a leaning conscious
In a credence relax responsive with my sports outsource the wattage
And I'm sleeping now (Wow!) And the settlers laugh
You won't be laughing when your covered wagons crash
You won't be laughing when the buses drag your brother's flags into rags
You won't be laughing when your front lawn is spangled with epitaphs
You won't be laughing
And I hang my boots to rest when I'm impressed
So I triple knot them then I forgot them
This origami dream is beautiful
but man those wings will never leave the ground
Without a feather and a lottery ticket, now settle down

All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way
All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way
All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way
All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way

Slacker bounded imitated tabloid headlined with the post
Shimmy cross the centerfold, and a dead time in ghosts

Giving crumbs for the better souls with seven deadly sins
To hear the plane to crystal conscious
To results a low life counting on one hand what he's accomplished
Ok, lift me to activism chain activate street sweep
Plug in deteriorating zenith pen dragging
I hack swords wars for the morbid spreading of mad men
Now he's got soul
Sitting there licking log cabin in Charlie Chaplin waddle
I could zig zag and zig 'em again for the bad dreams
Sparking my brick wall windows another thicket storm
And if one night in Gotham without the wretched
Houston we have a problem
Dispatch a task of infested patch of city goblins
Who split how many freaks with box cuts of a high road bellow
Heads ripped! Watch red bricks turn yellow
Sort of similar to most backbones at camp Icarus
Raw feelings start congregating at pamper for bickering
Life's not a ***** life is a beautiful woman
Your only call her a ***** because she won't let you get that pussy
Maybe she didn't feel y'all shared any similar interests
Or maybe you're just an ******* who couldn't sweet talk the princess
Kiss the speaker wire or either pass it for some pagan thresh hold
Stomach full of halo kibbles
Wings span cast black of porn visuals hear the duck hunt ticker tape
Vision and pick apart the pixels
I got a friend of polar nature and it's all peace
When I seek similar stars but can't sit at the same feast Metal Captain!
This cat is asking if I've seen his little lost passion
I told him: 'Yeah, but only when I pedaled past him'

All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way
All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way
All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way
All I ever wanted was to pick apart the day
put the pieces back together my way

And rabid reader - Do you ever read anything else than mainstream literature where the world is happy place full of fluffy pink bunnies and cups of tea, where the worst thing that could happen is another bunny calling your favorite bunny something mean? If not, you should. Start with something light, like the bible.

[rabid reader]

And rabid reader - Do you ever read anything else than mainstream literature where the world is happy place full of fluffy pink bunnies and cups of tea, where the worst thing that could happen is another bunny calling your favorite bunny something mean? If not, you should. Start with something light, like the bible.

If I'm not interested in it why would I look for under ground rappers. Question when you see someone arguing the the same argument as you, to you spit in their eye? I do not have simular interests as you, but if you read my two prior posts you will see I am defending rap not attacking.

[genoveva]

Question when you see someone arguing the the same argument as you, to you spit in their eye? I do not have simular interests as you, but if you read my two prior posts you will see I am defending rap not attacking.

Yes, I totally see this. :nod: What was confusing to me was the "because" part of the reason why you are not a big fan of rap. Perhaps you meant that it had little meaning to you, and not little meaning in general?

[JackKerouac]

If I'm not interested in it why would I look for under ground rappers. Question when you see someone arguing the the same argument as you, to you spit in their eye? I do not have simular interests as you, but if you read my two prior posts you will see I am defending rap not attacking.

The bunny-thing was not about underground rap. The bunny-thing was about your statements about rap being vulgar and meaningless. Of course it is, everything is vulgar and meaningless.
I'm sorry for the tone though, it was not my intention to spit you in the eye.

[rabid reader]

The bunny-thing was not about underground rap. The bunny-thing was about your statements about rap being vulgar and meaningless. Of course it is, everything is vulgar and meaningless.
I'm sorry for the tone though, it was not my intention to spit you in the eye.

I said "not a big fan" I enjoy deep and enjoyable lryics and lets face it with the expection of K-os, Nas and T-Pac and sometimes Emiumim(or however he likes to spell it) those type of lyrics are hard to find.

Ummm, I am trying to understand what your talking about, but I see no point. Unless you mean:


If I remember correctly this was his last single before he was killed. This is one of the most powerful songs written in the 90s, and it was given to us from a man who dedicated his life to help rally a forgotten and often discrimnated people. He questions the misplaced morals of our society, "Instead of war on poverty they got a war on drugs" earily in this thread someone mentioned that all he did was support misgonism, sex, drugs & voilance, what people fail to relize is that the people he's talking to are not you or I, they are poor, sometimes straving people who we don't even think exist because of our sheltered midclass lives.
In which you would probably want to take what I said into contexted because then you would once again see I was agreeing with you.

[JackKerouac]

Oh well, then I probably made a mistake somewhere. My bad, I'm sorry.