Does God have a God?

[Gurrato Alaien]

In John 20:17 we read: "Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your."

Not only is God Jesus' father, but He is also his GOD. Think about this carefully. Also notice how Jesus is equating between himself and mankind in these matters and not between himself and God. He is making it as clear as he possibly can that he is one of US and not a god. Why did he not just say "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father." ... and stop !? Why did Jesus feel it necessary to add the words "...and to my God, and your God." What additional information was he trying to convey to us with these extra words? Think about it carefully.

Peace.

[mono]

In John 20:17 we read: "Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your."
Of course, this only seems my interpretation, as I remember reading this quotation years ago. In the common Christian belief, God appears as omnipotent, omniscient, and ever-present (infinite, in essence). I think what The Bible intended on communicating rests in the thought that a Supreme Being seems the Father/Mother of everyone; hence Jesus states 'unto my Father, and your Father' and 'to my God, and your' - meaning He/She/It seems present among all.
On a second thought, or, perhaps, I could take this interpretation too far (pardon me, if I do), I believe subjectivity seems entirely inevitable; no matter what religion, what spirituality, what system of beliefs even two individuals share, the two people will always differ in interpretations, opinions, meditations, etc. (but thus seems the human role in objectivity). Assuming existence, an infinite Supreme Being, proving as infinite, appears beyond human comprehension - in cognition, perception, imagination, and all of the finite human faculties. Again, maybe taking this too far, perhaps Jesus, in the passage you quoted, could have emphasized that he 'goes unto' the objective, but acknowledging the differences of what he perceived as 'Father' and/or 'God,' and what another perceived.

[cuppajoe_9]

I believe Jesus is supposed to be God incarnate, not God Himself. God took a human form in order to provide an example of righteousness for the other humans. Thus, since God wants people to worship Him, it's perfectly natural that Jesus would think of God as a god.


I'm sure Mil will be along in a few minutes to settle this.

[miss tenderness]

I'm sure Mil will be along in a few minutes to settle this.

:lol:

I'm happy to see you back Gurrato Alien, thought u quite coming here.

[Gurrato Alaien]

Peace be upon you all,

The following verses confirms my claim:
Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

Clearly we see Jesus pbuh denies the divinity.

Also Here another verse confirms what I am trying to say:

Warning from Jesus in the bible for people who make him God

Matthew 15:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

This prove:

1- Jesus is not God and should not be worshipped
2- The bible has been changed by men.
3- The folloers of Jesus (christians) don't follow the true teaching but rather they worship him in vain.

This is just a small example from the bible prove that Jesus pbuh neither God nor son of God nor even has a divine power.

Peace.

[ShoutGrace]

The following verses confirms my claim:
Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

Despite the fact that many people have already hashed this over with you many times, this may yet be a verse well worth discussion, but not the way you've presented it.



Clearly we see Jesus pbuh denies the divinity.

Clearly? Really, is it clear?

I clearly see nothing of the sort.



Warning from Jesus in the bible for people who make him God

If you will indulge me with your recollection for a moment, this specific point was also touched on earlier.

It causes me discomfort to dreg up such things, but I feel compelled to in light of your post. I already addressed this topic in a crude, reprehensible, inexcusably brash and arrogant post some months ago.

Anyone should feel free to read it here (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16811). I apologize again for the content and tone of that post.



This is just a small example from the bible prove that Jesus pbuh neither God nor son of God nor even has a divine power.

This just isn't true.

This is an exegetical issue. In order to evaluate what your saying, don't we have to assume a veracity of the Bible's words? I don't think that we can pick and choose. We can't use some verses to make a point and ignore others.

You have said above that the Bible 'proves' that neither Jesus or God has divine power.

I trust that any reader should be able to identify the blatant lack of logic and research in that assertion.

There is not an inconguity between the Christian faith and the words of the Bible.

There just isn't.

If one reads the Bible as a whole, or even just the New Testament, one must, in all honesty, conclude that it postulates the following facts :

That there is a God, he has divine power, he gave the world his literal Son for the purpose of restituting humanity to Himself, that this Son knew his Father and his purpose, and that this Son was in fact God himself (in a manner that can, in some ways, be hard to describe).

The Bible literally and explicitly states those facts. Their truth is an entirely seperate subject. Whether we take the Bible as pure literature, fiction, or truth; the content and assertions are still the same.

Please, I beseech you all; if you do reflect on these things, do so honestly and fully. If anyone has any questions, points of discussion, or ideas, I trust that they will bring them forth in such a manner as their situations warrant.

[Shield&Sword]

Perhaps my english language us weak but i dont think GA said that God doesnt have a divine power, or even intended it, he was talking all the time about Jesus.

If we read the entire bible (also old test.) we wont arrive to conclusion that Jesus pbuh is God.
When we talk about God we must agree that He know by him self and know every thing; he is able to act by him self and able to do every thing alone.
But when we read new test. we see Jesus pbuh far away from things above.

If he is God then he must know when day of Judgment is, but the interesting thing he admit he doent know AND ONLY FATHER KNOW WHEN IT WILL COME, are they still one?

Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Some people say that Jesus was praying to God so people know to whom pray. Jesus was sent to Jews and he talked to Jews and Jews knew how to pray and to whom, for 4000 they knew God before Jesus come, beside he could say pray to me and will be easier than to be God and pretend to pray to God so people know how to pray.

If we read story in John 11:1-45 we see that he was confused and was praying to God when he was going to the grave and when he arrived he thanked God that he listened to him as always and didnt leave him alone and didnt put him in difficult situation, if he is God all this will happen?

[Union Jack]

Does God have a God?
Yes, Dick Cheney.

[rufioag]

I think when we read the entire Bible, both the new and the old testement, it confirms that Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is God.

But as to the topic, No, God does not have a god unless he recognizes himself as such.

Also, Howdy all.

[bhekti]

Does God have a God?

Yes. Himself.

Does Man have a Man? Yes. Himself.

[bhekti]

If he is God then he must know when day of Judgment is..


The Devil in the desert once asked Jesus to prove himself a God. Jesus refused because he didn't want to obey the Devil, he only wanted to obey his Father.

Jesus said he didn't know when the Day of Judgment is because his Father didn't let him know. And, Jesus took that. Why? Well, I guess that's just the way Jesus was. He took everything that his Father wanted him to take.

Jesus didn't know when the day of Judgment is also, in my opinion, because he is God incarnate. Incarnation means taking-off the Godliness things, that include the knowledge of the time of the Judgment Day. I think, that is also the reason why Jesus can feel sad, angry, in need of food and water and etc.

[ShoutGrace]

Jesus didn't know when the day of Judgment is also, in my opinion, because he is God incarnate. Incarnation means taking-off the Godliness things, that include the knowledge of the time of the Judgment Day. I think, that is also the reason why Jesus can feel sad, angry, in need of food and water and etc.

Didn't know if you already knew, bhekti, but thought you might be interested in the following excerpt from Philippians 2:



1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.



Of it, John W. Ritenbaugh writes:


The clause, "He made Himself of no reputation," more literally reads, "He emptied Himself." Instead of asserting His rights to the expression of the essence of Deity, He waived His rights and relinquished them. Compared to the fullness of God, He must indeed have felt empty once He gave up "the form of God"!

The word form in verse 7 is the same Greek word as in verse 6. The grammatical structure of the sentence demands that the "taking the form of a servant" preceded and caused His "making Himself of no reputation." Remember, form is the outward expression of inner nature. The sentence, though, indicates an exchange of such expression. Therefore, being a servant was not something of His inner nature that had been previously expressed. It was not His usual mode of outward expression. Before, He conveyed glory and sovereignty over all things, but afterward, He manifested servanthood.

An event in the life of Jesus may help explain this exchange of expressions. What happened in His incarnation was the exact opposite of what occurred at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-5; Mark 9:2-7). Luke writes that His "appearance . . . was altered" (Luke 9:29), and Peter, James, and John "saw His glory" (verse 32). On the Mount of Transfiguration, He was changed from His normal, human outward expression as a servant to the outward expression of Deity.

Of what did He empty Himself? He did not empty Himself of His Deity, but rather the outward expression of His Deity and all it implies. As one author puts it, "He emptied Himself of His existence-in-a-manner-equal-to-God." He set aside His legitimate and natural desires and prerogatives as Deity so that He might express Himself as a servant.


Jesus Was –


- A man who was beaten & humiliated (Luke 22:63-64).
- A man who was spat on (Matthew 26:67).
- Who was hiding when he knew that the authorities wanted to kill him (John 11:53:54).
- Who was captured by the authorities (John 18:2-3).
- Who was hungry (Matthew 4:2, 21:18) & (Mark 11:12).
- Who was thirsty (John 19:28).
- Who was sleepy (Matthew 8:24).
- Who was weary (John 4:6).
- Who was groaning (John 11:33, 38).
- Who wept (John 11:35).
- Who felt intense sorrow (Matthew 26:37) & (Matthew 26:38).
- Who was learning through experience (Hebrews 5:8).
- Who was growing and developing (Luke 2:52).
- Who was powerless as he said that he can do nothing by himself (John 5:30).
- Who did not know when Judgement Day will occur (Mark 13:32).
- Who had brothers and brothers in law (Matthew 13:54-56).
- Who was circumcised (Luke 2:21).
- Who was delivered by a woman like any human being (Luke 26).
- Even his mother had the pain of delivery as every woman (Revelation 12:2).
- Who sucked the milk from his mother like any child (Luke 11:27).
- Who was eating and drinking (Matthew 11:19) & (Luke 7:34).
- Who could not find a place to lay his head (Matthew 8:20).
- Who was scourged and flogged (Matthew 27:26, Mark 15:15, John 19:1)
- Who DIED (Mark 15:37), (John 19:33).

[subterranean]

The Devil in the desert once asked Jesus to prove himself a God. Jesus refused because he didn't want to obey the Devil, he only wanted to obey his Father.


Suppose he was just setting an example for men to follow (that no one comes before God). Personally, I don't think that this event necessarily mean that Jesus was an incarnation of God (not the God Himself)

[Shield&Sword]

Strange post Rufioag, sometimes i think some (or most) of christians are not based on one idea. If you believe in God how you believe that he could have God (by saying that if he tell us that he has then he has), this scentence is not logic, so you will accept every thing about God that written in a book, even if its written insults you will accept them, then how can you know if this book is right or wrong if you dont have a base, an idea, a definition of God (that he is one, almighty....). You dont have definition of God, i dont know what is there to say more about God, he is died, suffer, cry eat, worm..... according you.

If Father is same son then how father know something that son doesnt, this is the so strange and funny in same time. Even when you explain things you admit that there are 2 persons, one allowed to another to know something, and the another has nothing to do, only accept, are they still one? how?

Incarnation, where its written in bible about incarnation, beside if Jesus lost part of his powers then who controled the world, then God at least once in history wasnt the most powerfull, was less in level.
When someone say to me that God was weak i refuse it immediately, when someone even use a word that only used with creaters i refuse it immediately, because when i want to believe in religioun i read what it say about God, i built my idea about God (the most powerfull, nothing like him, the most beutifull, the most mercifull, the most big, wasnt died, didnt cry, doesnt do things he regret) if i find something in a book against these things i throw this book away, i burn it. I know that when i die i will meet for sure the creator that made all, and i am sure that the ideas i got are not wrong and i am sure that there is religioun that agree with my thoughts and it will be the religioun that God sent to us, not a religioun made by man. In same time i Dont go away with my thoughts, i am afraid that i will something that i will thing its good but infact will be bad about God, thats why i believe that the religioun that will go with my ideas got also more definitons and more teachings that i must know so i dont go in wrong, thats how things work for me.

I dont know if i will see your answers, today i am going home to spend summer with family, i am tired a little bit. Salaaaaaam all.

[bhekti]

I really like you S&S, honest and brave man!

[bhekti]

It's a great joy for me to be reminded again of that excerpt, ShoutGrace! Thank you. :nod:


..., John W. Ritenbaugh writes:....

“....He set aside His legitimate and natural desires and prerogatives as Deity so that He might express Himself as a servant”

And a servant, a faithful and humble servant, never feels that he must know what his master knows. Knowledge is being treated not as what matters here. What matters is faith in the master and love that flows from it. And, I think, that is what Jesus trying to say to his disciples who, like their contemporaries, worried about the Day of Judgment (which was a natural reaction due to the socio-political situation of the time). It was as if Jesus trying to say, “Why worry about it? I myself don’t even know about it. It’s in the hand of the Father. And, don’t worry, you’ll be just fine when the moment’s come. I am your guarantee (Am I not the one who is seated in the throne of Judgment?)”. So here Jesus’ statement (that he doesn’t possess the knowledge of the D-day) shocks his listeners and causes them to go away. But, for a few people it functions as a revelation that deconstruct the way they look life: life is not a life of anticipation that would only give birth to a culture of finger-pointing legalism, of pride and boasting, of self-interest and politics (in such a life knowledge is everything, is power).

I imagine how, after hearing Jesus’ statement, a few of Jesus listeners were shocked, depressed and sick, yet finally (after such a long “journey”) came to an understanding of the meaning of salvation, a word that they thus far only understood in political terms. It was as if they heard it in their hearts “Don’t live this way. You are not anymore of such a life. You are now free from the threat of the Judgment. Hurray” And, they went away feeling happy (here I would pirate the word “authentication” from existentialism, or “….” from Humanistic Psychology -- Or was it they who pirated?). But there were some of those few that were still troubled, looking at the condition of the world, the reality of life. They asked “What is it for to understand it all? What is it for to have the understanding of the meaning of salvation? ” And they went away, feeling all the more depressed. But, there were still some of the some of those few that stayed, feeling glad yet not fully glad. These were simple and stupid, hard-headed people, having only one will in their hearts: to feel fully glad. They followed Jesus, heeded to more statements, more scenes, more deconstructions. They were called disciples.

And they heard it, looking out at the condition of the world around them, “Now what you really have to worry about is something else. What you got to worry about is the growth of faith and love of your brothers and sisters and of the whole world.” They brought the meaning of salvation to life, to practice, great and small, to everyone all over the world, and took the cost of discipleship.

I would not say “Jesus doesn’t know of the time of the Judgment Day”. I would say “Jesus disregards the knowledge of the time of the Judgment Day”

[bhekti]

Suppose he was just setting an example for men to follow (that no one comes before God). Personally, I don't think that this event necessarily mean that Jesus was an incarnation of God (not the God Himself)

Hi, Sub. Rumahku diterpa tsunami lho. Tapi ga pa pa. Aku malah merasa takjub.Hehehe..

I don’t know if my statements imply that I’m using that event in the desert as a proof that Jesus is God incarnate. Well, my mistake if they really do. I didn’t mean it that way.

I agree with you about the setting an example. But, I think, it’s such a cruel example, though I believe it’s not impossible to follow. Ivan Karamazov in Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov really has something to say about it. You really have to read it, Sub, if you are really interested in this matter.

It’s an example of losing oneself in order to win oneself. Greatly paradoxical. High-pitched psychology.

[NecDeusIntersit]

I have heard it described in terms of substance versus personhood. In the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), each shares of the same "substance" of God without necessarily becoming identical representations of each other: as an egg has three parts (the shell, the white, and the yolk) while remaining, in essence, one thing. Although Jesus is one with the Father in will and in spirit, he remains under the Father's authority.

Peace.