How I Became an Atheist

[cuppajoe_9]

Let me preface this by saying that I am not posting this as an attempt to criticize religion, nor (mods take note) am I attempting to preach, nor do I wish to 'convert' anyone to atheism. I do not pretend to have built up an unbreakable chain of logic. I just thought this might be of interest.

I was raised catholic, but decided at 10 that there was no such place as hell. I can't imagine a benevolent God punishing any of His creations to eternal torture, no matter what their crimes in life may have been. It simply didn't, and doesn't, make sense to me. Since the church was, in my view, wrong about hell, I began to question what made them so sure they were right about anything. It all seemed to come down to divine revelations, but a lot of different religions have had a lot of contradictory divine revelations, and they are all just as convinced as the Catholics are that they are right. I figured they're all deluding themselves and became a spiritualist. I was about fourteen at this point. After thinking about it for quite a while, I decided that since God created the entire universe, He probably did it just to see how it would work. Given that, He probably isn't at all interested in changing human behavior because He is just curious as to how we react to being flung into a state of crawling around on the surface or a wet rock hurtling around a gigantic nuclear fireball 150 million kilometers away. He has probably never even directly interacted with human beings directly in that case. But, if He has never actually talked to us, how do we know anything about him? Unless I'm missing something, any talk of God is pure guesswork. At this point in our little narrative I am sixteen and an atheist.

[Riesa]

well, mr cuppajoe, I was twelve when I realized at my uncle's funeral that I was NOT going to raise up out of my grave to join with the ones that might be still alive.............

ah, it
sounds like a big MYTH to me, so sorry, all those believers. Love you though, I believe there is room for all of us. misguided though we all might be......... I see a future of humans, \\the world full of humans getting along. duh.

[Sabo]

Well I'm 28 and I began loosing my faith in portions. I was also raised Catholic. For me it started with why I as a woman couldn't do stuff that boys could do in church, when I knew that it ment more for me than for many of them.

When I tried sharing my doubts with our priest, he cut me off and said it was a great sin to think so and that I should pray so I would underdstand. Well that was just plain stupid.

Next step was realizing that people around me that pretended to be religious and went to church every sunday were much worse sinners that atheists I knew. Why is that, I couldn't help wondering? Why weren't they immoral animals if religion was such a big thing?

Than there was also the fact that I lived in Bosnia, with close friends that were Muslims and Serb-Orthodox. It made me curious about other religions, which led to the discovery that they all are pretty much the same. Same content, different package.

[caesar]

Hi, cuppajoe 9. Did I tell you, I like your sign?

'There ain't no sin and there ain't no virtue. There's just stuff people do.' – That is so true. You have a wise head on your young shoulders.

You know, you are more of an agnostic than an atheist. You haven’t denied the existence of god like an a atheist does but you have said…


He has probably never even directly interacted with human beings directly in that case. But, if He has never actually talked to us, how do we know anything about him?

…like an agnostic who says that it is impossible to tell whether god exists.

I, for one, am neither an atheist nor an agnostic (which I thought I was). I started defying god, or the fear of god which religion tried to infuse in me, at the age of 9.

I was studying in a catholic school and my only friends, then, were two girls who, sitting on either side of me like the devil and the deep sea, threatened me of divine retribution and coerced me to do things. I slowly started defying them and in defying them I thought I was defying God. Of course, I, later, realized that god could not have commanded me to do the things they made me do and even if he did I wouldn’t oblige him, today. Defying god, gradually, turned into an expression of freedom. I value my freedom more than life.

I didn’t ask god to create me nor did he ask me if I wanted to be created. So, why should I subject myself to his will when I never agreed to do so? It would be arrogant on his part to expect me worship him and ignoble and plebeian to condemn me or discriminate against me for defying him. Neither of which makes him worthy of worship.

God may be omnipresent and omnipotent, but he, certainly, is not omniscient.

Why?

Study quantum physics.

(Actually, at this point of time in my life I’m beginning to make peace with god. I’ve forgiven him for all the pain that he has caused; or have I?)

[cuppajoe_9]

…like an agnostic who says that it is impossible to tell whether god exists.I'm an agnostic atheist. Maybe I am completely wrong and there is a god, and he will be annoyed with me for not believing in him (it?), but I think the odds of that are slim enough that I have nothing to worry about.

More about the different types of atheism here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Implicit_and_explicit_atheism

[RobinHood3000]

Agnostic atheist. I don't believe in God, nor do I believe we can tell either way.

[Psycheinaboat]

I am just stunned CuppaJoe is only 16 yrs. old. His wit and intelligence is surprising in one so young.

[RobinHood3000]

Many of us young whippersnappers are full of surprises :cool:.

[Psycheinaboat]

Many of us young whippersnappers are full of surprises :cool:.


Yeah, there are a lot of smart young'ns here on Lit Net. I don't remember being so mature or wordly during my teens.

[cuppajoe_9]

I'm eighteen now, but I was sixteen when I became an atheist. The last sentence in my original post could've been worded better, I suppose.

[ejf]

As a 19 yr old theist (protestant Christian), I find that many arguments and trains of thought that lead to atheism project human qualities (especially human flaws) onto the being of God, such as arrogance and egotism, and assume that God's actions are motivated by the same feelings experienced by humans. However, if God is infinite and humans finite, than we likely have no more understanding of his thoughts and motivations than, perhaps, a plant has understanding of a human's. From this perspective it's hard to find grounds on which God can be criticized.

That said, I have no problems with questioning religion, despite my ardent Christianity. Many of the criticisms that are commonly made of religion (eg hypocrisy of its followers) are legitimate. However (and here's my Christianity coming through again) religion's problems seem to stem from imperfect humanity rather than from God himself.

That's the view from the other side, anyway. Good to see some open and honest discussion going on here. Interesting stuff.

[caesar]

Hey ejf, 'imperfect humanity' is gods creation. When you censure art you also censure the artist. However, someone said,

"Disapproval is a very important factor in all progress. There has really never been any progress without it."

So, I agree with you, if you're saying that god could have done a better job. I have some great ideas to improve this world, which I can share with god, but if he will only put aside his pompous godlyness and listen to me for a moment. You have to be humble, if you want to learn something, you know?

I, also, agree when you say that humans are finite and and god's infinite. According to some philosophy (probably, Indian) I am a piece of god. We all are!

But I have a quarrel with your saying, "We have no understanding of his thoughts."
Why should I? How dare he forces his plan upon me? And what's in it for me? Am I just a pawn?

[AimusSage]

It seems to me that organized religion has little to do with the belief in a higher being. Someone who thinks themselves an atheist because they reject their religion, to me is not a strong atheist. There has to be a conscious rejection of theism, not just the religion, which is for the biggest part, human made.

While I was raised a protestant, I can safely say I never truly believed in the existance of a higher being like the christian God. Even as a young child I questioned everything in the bible that was attributed to God, I found the explanaition of a God to be illogical. When I turned twelve I decided I would no longer go to church. While my parents didn't like it, they accepted my deciscion. At that time I didn't consider myself an atheist, I didn't even know what it was. I started to think of myself as an agnostic, thinking I would need proof of Gods existance, but did not fully reject theism. It wasn't untill several years later that I decided there was no such thing as a god. I consciously rejected the existence of any higher being after finding their existance not only illogical, but also fully reasoning why I found it illogical. I also tried to reason for the existance of God, and I could come to some sort of logical explanaition, but it would require far more reasoning then the lack of gods. As such, I decided that atheism was the most logical path and thus I consiously rejected theism.

It has only been three years that I actually call myself an atheist. I get along fine with people of all religions, and I enjoy listening to their reasons for believing, even if I don't agree with them. It's important to me that I respect people for what they stand for, whether they are atheist, monotheist or polytheist or whatever. If someone draws their strength from their belief in God, who am I to take that strength away?

Anyway, before I really get started on what I think, I'll leave it at this, no need to flood the thread with my ramblings.

[Sabo]

Someone who thinks themselves an atheist because they reject their religion, to me is not a strong atheist.

Do do think that a believer who's been born into a religion is a strong believer?

I my case, the story above was just the start of the process of becoming the atheist. A study of other religions followed, then the process of theist beliefs, then the process of questioning these.

Finally just a few years ago, I got a direct question if I believed in God. I actually hadn't been thinking about it for a while. And I realized that NO I don't believe and I hadn't for some time. There is nothing supernatural in the world. There are only people, and the only reality that is, is created in the contact between the living creatures.

cuppajoe_9 can consider himself lucky to have reached this point so soon. Impressive! Saves a lot of energy too. ;)

[RobinHood3000]

I'm with Aimus. I'd add more, but I think he's got things pretty well-covered.

[crazy baby]

I am becoming an athesit too. :)

[caesar]

A convert!

Bravo Cuppajoe_9! :thumbs_up
I'm sure, you'll soon be giving proselytizers a run for their money. :lol:

[Amra]

I didn’t ask god to create me nor did he ask me if I wanted to be created. So, why should I subject myself to his will when I never agreed to do so? It would be arrogant on his part to expect me worship him and ignoble and plebeian to condemn me or discriminate against me for defying him. Neither of which makes him worthy of worship.

Do you say the same of your parents? Do you think that since you didn't ask to be born, you have no reason to respect your parents, be kind to them or love them?

[RobinHood3000]

The difference there is that proof exists that one is the child of one's parents.

[Suzieq47]

So what's Meursault, athiest or agnostic? Even if you read it in the last year or so, try rereading Camus' the Stranger - as translated by WARD, rather than Gilbert. Then, revisit your arguments, if not your orientation to this issue.

Suzie

[Scheherazade]

Do you say the same of your parents? Do you think that since you didn't ask to be born, you have no reason to respect your parents, be kind to them or love them?If that parent refuses to have any contact with his children, does not answer their quesitons or be there for them in time of need, do you still think he would be entitled to the same respect or should expect the children to act in accordance with his wishes or rules?

[Shield&Sword]

Crazy Baby, I am becoming more and more believer. You know, i like to watch every detail in life and stop to watch it, even in my subject of study i dont look at it only a material look or a superficial look, i always try to look behind it. Even athiests i stop and watch them, i was raised in a sosciety where i never saw an athiest or talked to them, when i arrived to west i saw how athiesm is increasing, and when i watch people becoming athiest i see it strange and amazing how world go, people believe and people doesnt, people admit and people doesnt, people accept and people doesnt, and i knew its all relaited to mind and how we use it, we have inside us the strong feeling of existence of God, but this feeling need mind to accept it or not, if mind refuse it then this feeling will become more and more little, but it will never vanish.

RobinHood where is the point in your post, the matter was about respecting or not and if its relaited to our well of coming to this world or not, and i think Amra gave good example.

Sheh. No matter how parents behaived it cant deny the fact that they exist, Same thing for God, but the question will be did God really left us. I always hear people say God doesnt exist because there is no justice in world, there are strong people who kill poor people. In my opinion the only Justice will be when we believe in God. Its a fact that strong people kill but i believe that they will be punished, they wont live thier life rich and do what ever they want and then they die happy and vanish (Hitler didnt escape with his done), and poor people live thier life in misery and sadness and they die just like that, this is the unjustice. I look at life as 1, Half is in this life here and half after we raise again after death, and we all agree that if a poor man get rich in this life then its justice, well then we must agree that if a poor man become rich in other life then its justice and the only unjustice will be if we think that man live poor and die sad just like that. The question that will be asked is: why i must behaive good? what is good? did hitler do bad thing? who said he did bad thing? and what thing will make him stop doing bad if he like richness and power and believe he is superior and believe he wont be punished but at least will live his life happy and as he want and vanish after that?

[caesar]

Do you say the same of your parents? Do you think that since you didn't ask to be born, you have no reason to respect your parents, be kind to them or love them?

There are two things I'd like to say:

1) Yes, I've already confronted my parents with a similar question. I was born into a family, in which, father didn't care and mother couldn't care.

Do I love them? No, because I was never loved. (It dosen't mean, I hate them. I don't hate anyone, because people who nuture haterd are ugly lookin. As you can see from my avatar, I have a very charming face and I don't want to spoil it.)

Do I respect them? Yes, like I respect other human beings.

2) Patental obligation precedes filial obligation. In other words, a man incurs filial obligation only if his parents have fulfilled their foregoing obligation to foster the child; not otherwise.

Unlike Shield&Sword I don't think there is anything wrong with this world in spite of there being injustice and unfairness. This world would be a very boring place if everybody was good, happy and content. However, I still maintain, god had no right to put me here, in this lousy world he has created. I challenge him to switch places with me (I've some evil plans for him, he, he, he...). He should get a taste of his own creation. Then I want him to tell, if he likes it. Did you hear me, god? Goddamn you.

[ShoutGrace]

He should get a taste of his own creation. Then I want him to tell, if he likes it.

Sorry, you're about 2,000 years too late. Already come and gone.

Trust me, He didn't like it.

[caesar]

Yeah, you are right. Thanks for reminding. What a loser, couldn't do anything, could he?

[Shield&Sword]

Not first time i saw here people who complain about thier parents.
Its not a solution to refuse God if parents behaived such way, its fault of parents that they didnt believe and behaive in way that make God satisfied.
I saw here alot of men make a relation with women and make them pregnant and then they escape from resposibily and leave woman alone to face life without work or any thing. If people followed God there wont be problems, and if probelms happen then they will resolve it, there wont be adultery, here people try to show they are happy and free, but if you watch them closely you will see the big lie they are living and sadness, no confidence, women are source of joy only nothing more, women must be naked so they will be accepted. Why a child must grow without father? why a child grow between 2 women who behaive a behavior that and animal wont do? why a child grow and then he know that his father is brother of his mom? why a child was throwen in garbage? why a child is used to satisfy adults? why a child is beaten always by his drunk father? these questions no one dare to answer them here in west or even to ask them, they only call people not to do it, they escape from answering them.
Here where i live for first time i see people kidnapp little children and kill them, nearlly once a week a baby.
Once i read in a site about the reason why people shouldnt do incest, i was shocked, the reason was: incest is not allowed so evolution go well, and not a sick baby will be born, it means that a woman if she cant have babys then she can do incest. All these problems are happened because people has no princibles any more, because people is material now, because they believe they will escape with there acts, because they believe there is no good and bad.
The best answer for the above questions is : SUCH THINGS DONT HAPPEN. and this answe will be only if people believe in God, if people believe that life is purpose, that no one do wrong and will escape.
So if our parents behaived bad, we should know that it was because they were far from God, and now its our time to make things better, and raise our selves and our children as God like and raise our children in a way that they will love us as parents and in a way that we guarantee sons of our sons wont be treated bad, they only way to do that is by planting princibles, planting God belief and God love and God teachings. Believe me its the only way to resolve problems, because its a fact and reality, because God created the world in this way,, you can deny it with your words but words dont change facts, He knows what He created and doesnt need to try how people feel, He know and He know better than any one, Justice will be when we believe that every one will get what he deserve. Denying God is not the solution, because its the main problem and source of all problems, problems dont get resolved by problems.

[Logos]

A note to everyone:
None of you here are in any position to claim that you are better than, or superior to others because of your faith/beliefs/opinions/interpretations. Please keep this in mind as you post, or things will get deleted or edited. Remember to respect the faith and beliefs etc. of others, even if they don't correspond with your own.

[Sabo]

I saw here alot of men make a relation with women and make them pregnant and then they escape from resposibily

As if that doesn't happen in a society governed by religion! Even in Iran there will be rapings, it's just that a woman will need-remind me-how many witnesses to prove she has been raped? three? Constructed so that it can't be proved. Thre the double moral is much more stronger.



big lie they are living and sadness, no confidence, women are source of joy only nothing more,

And what are woman in an (for example) Islamic community? Or fundamentalistic Christian? Supposed to shut up and know their place. I agree that are negative sides of Western society, but idealizing about religious societies is wishful thinking and has not much to do with reality.


why a child grow between 2 women who behaive a behavior that and animal wont do?

That's actually not true. Many animals practice homosexuality.



why a child was throwen in garbage?

Can happen anywhere and is hardly a mark of atheism

Why some people make the connection between atheism and nihilism is partly understandable, but yet I am to see somebody here confess themselves to nihilism. being an atheist don't imply loosing all moral values. If anything, it makes the personal responsibility stronger!

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I was raised catholic, but decided at 10 that there was no such place as hell. I can't imagine a benevolent God punishing any of His creations to eternal torture, no matter what their crimes in life may have been. It simply didn't, and doesn't, make sense to me. Since the church was, in my view, wrong about hell, I began to question what made them so sure they were right about anything.

Article 1037, Catechism of the Catholic Church: "God predestines no one to go to hell, for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary,and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentence."

That quote is from 2 Peter 3:9, which reads in the NAB: "The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard "delay," but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

What's my point? Your concept of hell is warped. Hell isn't a punishment, it's a consequence. Yes, the words are different. Punishment comes extrinsically, while consequence originates from the inside. Here are the definitions of each from Webster's Dictionary:

Consequence- something produced by a cause or necessarily following from a set of conditions

Punishment - suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

Do you see the difference now? You produce hell and everything that comes with it by mortal sin. That is a consequence. Punishment would need to come from God, and that's not the point of hell.

By the way, I used to be athiest. I'm 17 now and looking into semenaries. Some of the older members here might remember my rather....apocalyptic?....style and my equally dooming attitude. That has changed, no doubt. However, you need to see what the Church ACTUALLY says instead of deciding on your own what it says. Now, let's see what sort of responses I get.

[Shield&Sword]

I dont know why you are mixing things.
I am talking about what will make people stop from living hard by thier own hands, I know there are muslims that do wrong and christians and jews, i am talking about what we believe and what make God satisfied. I reccomend you to go back to what i wrote. You didnt even resond on my post, you only tried to show that also believers behaive like non believers, and you even didnt try to find way to problems spreaded in west now, we are talking about facts here. My post also i will write it to people who believe in God but they doesnt behaive as God wants. My point was Believing In God And Behaiving In A Way That Make Him Satisfied, so i think your post didnt respond any thing. So you say that its not bad that a man throw girl alone, or being drunk and beat his child, or incest or any thing that you try to relaite it to God, while all happen because people left God and believed there is no good and bad, and there is no punishment and that you can do what ever you want. Try to find answers to questions above.

You said> That's actually not true. Many animals practice homosexuality.

Now is this an answer of normal man, beside you agree that this is animal behavior.
I am not trying to relaite bad behavior to athiesm only, i try to relaite it to Denieng God, or get far from his, or not behaiving as God wants.

We have minds to know good from bad, not only to invent computers.
We know how in west "Children of flowers" wanted to live in drugs and alcohol and sex at 70's and then AIDS for first time came to existence, now why a child must live sick? Do you think that if these people behaived according principles would such desease come? Do you think that saying to people incest is wrong because it wont get us to better evolution is enough to make people stop doing it, why only this material solutions are offered.
You the one who doesnt believe, or the one who believe but left God what is the best solution to these problems, are these things written above are good or bad,and why i should believe they are good and bad if i believe there is no God?
I am not trying to show that my sosciety is better, i am talking about facts that i see every day in west and people are escaping from asking "why".

[Sabo]

You didnt even resond on my post, you only tried to show that also believers behaive like non believers,

Exactly how do you think "responding" to your post is supposed to look like? I get a feeling that there is one and only one thing that's can make you happy: me saying that I agree with you 100%. It's not gonna happen any time soon.


So you say that its not bad that a man throw girl alone, or being drunk and beat his child, or incest

I most certainly said no such thing and I have no idea how you can make that up.


Now is this an answer of normal man,

If you think that homosexuality is a sin, that's your problem. I don't. I think it's a variation of sexuality. As long nobody is hurting anybody, it fine by me. I was simply pointing out that it is a myth that homosexuality doesn't occur among animals.

And again - the problems that bother you in West exist everywhere, it's just the question of visibility and possibly magnitude.

And no I don't think that faith is solution to the problems. On the contrary, I think systems of religious beliefs are often used as tools of oppression and of taking away the individual responsibility. And yes I do think that a society based on individual responsibility is possible.

Just because some of the arguments you cite (for example on evolution) are ridicules, it doesn't mean there are not other and better arguments to follow. For starters, not hurting others. If you think that the only thing that's going to make people behave nice to each other it the fear of God, than you don't really think that high of humans. And as I remember it, God in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim tradition did think rather high of humans. Free will, remember?

[caesar]

a woman will need-remind me-how many witnesses to prove she has been raped?

4 pious male witnesses!

Rape cases are registered under the draconian Hudud laws, under which, a rape victim who complains against the rapist risks being accused of adultery. The victim failure to prove her accusation is considered as confession to adultery (or fornication) for which the punishment is stoning to death.

Testimony by Women and non-Muslim witnesses are considered inadmissible under Hudud laws. So, in a rape case, where there are only women or non-muslim witnessess the rapist goes unpunished.

Generally:

1 muslim male witness = 2 female muslim witnesses = 2 non-muslim witness

The discrimination between male and female witnesses is sanctioned by islamic religious tenets which deem that women are dishonest.

And the most incredible thing is that majority of muslim women do not think they are being exploited.

[Scheherazade]

The aim of this thread to discuss and share our views on atheism. While doing so, please keep in mind that posts which aim to belittle, ridicule and/or dismiss others' beliefs will not be tolerated and can be edited or deleted without any further notice and will lead to thread closure.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I'd like atheism to try to refute this....http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

It's scientific proof that a wafer of bread, once consecrated, literally turned into flesh and blood...humans sure as hell didn't do it, so who did?

[Sabo]

How can something that supposedly happened in VIII century bee scientifically proved? A million thing can have happened to the original specimen.

To comment on a similar phenomena, last Sunday I listened to a radio program about phenomena that Catholic church investigates as possible miracles where people are said to have been healed. There is a medical counsel that goes through the medical background of the patient and changes that occurred after the alleged miracle took place.

As it turns out, it has happened that the medical counsel has said that something is a natural change, but the Church decided it wasn't. Also in the cases where the counsel acknowledged that they can not explain the healing of the sick, in most of those cases the disease in question was MS. I do not in any way question that the people who were sick really have a physical illness, but MS can have very diffuse symptoms, and a healing can easily have had psychological explanation, rather than physical. The neurologist in the radio program suggested (and it sounds reasonable enough to me) that people to start with are overwhelmed by the diagnosis and that the initial physical condition is not at all as bad at it looks to an outsider. When exposed to a possibility of being healed and at the same time keeping their face, people take it.

I don't say it explains all the cases but many "miracles" don't hold at a scientific investigation.

Also, as I wrote earlier, I don't think that faith should bother for scientific explanation as in the case of Eucharistic miracle. Faith by it nature is a different way of knowledge than scientific reasoning. If someone believes in the Eucharistic miracle, it's true for him/her. That it is not to an atheist does't matter, as long as we don't try to convince each other. But of course we are trying, so...

[BeingaBunny]

I'd like atheism to try to refute this....http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

It's scientific proof that a wafer of bread, once consecrated, literally turned into flesh and blood...humans sure as hell didn't do it, so who did?

No. To be honest, I can hardly even understand the point of that link. But to me I see no scientific proof that "a wafer of bread, once consecrated, literally turned into flesh and blood."

There is no scientific proof of a wafer of bread or of consecration in that link. What it seems to say is, yes, the flesh is flesh and the blood is blood.

There's a lot of flesh and blood where I'm from, so I don't see what is so special here. If you could clarify, I'd be happy to read about it, but I don't think you can prove anything at all to be honest.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

The host = wafer.

Wafer + consecration = human tissue.

Human tissue is not supposed to be able to be made from unleavened bread.

Read the article, it's all there.

[bazarov]

The host = wafer.

Wafer + consecration = human tissue.

Human tissue is not supposed to be able to be made from unleavened bread.

Read the article, it's all there.
It's imposible to our ''normal'' humans, but it's not for Jesus, because he is son of God. You may just see some metaphor in that, how could also water flow from his ribs???

[bazarov]

Well I'm 28 and I began loosing my faith in portions. I was also raised Catholic. For me it started with why I as a woman couldn't do stuff that boys could do in church, when I knew that it ment more for me than for many of them.

When I tried sharing my doubts with our priest, he cut me off and said it was a great sin to think so and that I should pray so I would underdstand. Well that was just plain stupid.

Next step was realizing that people around me that pretended to be religious and went to church every sunday were much worse sinners that atheists I knew. Why is that, I couldn't help wondering? Why weren't they immoral animals if religion was such a big thing?

Than there was also the fact that I lived in Bosnia, with close friends that were Muslims and Serb-Orthodox. It made me curious about other religions, which led to the discovery that they all are pretty much the same. Same content, different package.
Bosna is very special...Three nations, and religion is not just a question of faith, it's question af being Serb, Bosnain or Croat, even though they are all quite normal. I also understand people who became atheist, after being born in strong faith and then when they see their own parents, friends, priests etc...But the thing is not to lose your faith beacuse of them; you have to try not to be them.

[Shield&Sword]

Now i dont know where is the point, i asked you to find solution for these problems and you didnt answer, you tried to show that religious people also behaive like non believers, and i say yes there are believers who behaive bad but thier behaviour is caused by not respecting God, or being far, so we get back to same problem, and if i want to give advice to these people i will say God doesnt accept such things and you will be punished for this behaviour, but when i talk to non believer i dont know what to say to him if he doesnt believe in good and bad or punishment or he think he is superior than other races. I want to discuss this point but you go and say also believers behaive such way, perhaps my english wasnt clear.
Hitler thought his people is better and superior and all others are apes, in which language you will talk to him in order to stop him from killng "apes"? or to make sosciety better?

Ceasar the motive that 2 women are requested is that if a woman forget the other one will remind her, and from your talk i see you dont know any thing. You didnt know that there are cases only woman is accepted as witness? perhaps no, never ever use media as source especially when its western, the famous case is that 1 witness man is equal to 2 women and people spread it as descrimination between man and woman, but its not true and i am not here to give religious lesson. Wrong Wrong, when a woman complain about rape and she fail to proove it she wont be killed, this is LIE, scuse me for saying this but its simply a LIE. There are cases in which man and woman get stoned and they are so limited and difficult to accure.

Refuting God because of difficulty is not a solution, because difficulty is caused because of denying God, the solution is by making us better from inside and put principles that no one can change them, to know good and bad.

Sabo Islam is not christianity or Judhaism or Hindu, every religioun is different, you cant judge a religioun because of acts of it's followers, and knowing that people pray to Rat as god is not a motive to deny God, but you must know that its not logic to pray to rat and must search. You must go back to books of religioun and read and if you dont understand something you must ask a person who know, not any person from street.

[ShoutGrace]

While doing so, please keep in mind that posts which aim to belittle, ridicule and/or dismiss others' beliefs will not be tolerated and can be edited or deleted without any further notice and will lead to thread closure.




Yeah, you are right. Thanks for reminding. What a loser, couldn't do anything, could he?

This statement bespeaks itself.

Jesus of Nazareth was a 'loser' who 'couldn't do anything'?

I can only hope that the generally dismal nature of the character and quality of that statement is evident to everyone.



You may just see some metaphor in that, how could also water flow from his ribs???

Are you talking about the incident reported by John in his Gospel?

John 19:34

"But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and immediately there came out both blood and water."

I have read the following about it:

"One view concerns the pericardium, the sac which surrounds the heart, and which contains a small amount of watery fluid. When the body undergoes great stress, as crucifixion would certainly entail, the amount of fluid increases and the sac expands. The Roman lance would then have passed through Jesus' pericardium and into the right side of his heart, which is filled with blood even after death. As the lance was withdrawn, it would draw out the blood from the heart and the watery fluid from the expanded pericardium.

Anthony Sava, an American physician, has a different explanation for the water flow. He believes that the severe scourging caused internal hemorrhaging in Jesus' chest, and the pleural cavity filled with blood. The blood settled on the bottom of the chest cavity while a clear liquid was left on top. Sava says that the Roman lance entered the chest and, upon being withdrawn, released the blood and the water from the chest.

Both of these views may be partially correct. The lance could have passed through the pleural cavity, through the pericardium and into the heart. The blood could have come both from the pleural cavity and from the right side of the heart, while the water could have come from both the upper chest cavity and from the pericardium. Indeed, this combination is the general view held by the German radiologist Moedder and by English physician David Willis.

The most probable thesis is that held by Bucklin, who agrees with Moedder and Willis that the lance pierced both the pleural cavity and the right side of the heart. He opposes Sava's theory that there was severe hemorrhaging in the chest, since the chest injuries may not have been severe enough. However, Bucklin agrees that most of the water proceeded from pleural effusion while most of the blood came from the right side of the heart.

The explanations for the blood and water flow are closely related at several points. All physicians who have examined the question agree that Jesus was already dead when the chest wound was inflicted. The blood and water most probably flowed from both the heart and the chest cavity."

[Sabo]

Now i dont know where is the point, i asked you to find solution for these problems and you didnt answer,

If you read the next last message, posted today at 07:46 AM, you should have a very clear answer to your question.


he think he is superior than other races.

Don't put words in my mouth. I claimed no such thing and the mere thought is unthinkable to me.


Refuting God because of difficulty is not a solution,

how's doing that? That is not my reason.


Sabo Islam is not christianity or Judhaism or Hindu, every religioun is different, you cant judge a religioun because of acts of it's followers, /.../ if you dont understand something you must ask a person who know, not any person from street.

Where did you get that I think Islam=Christianity=Jewdaism? When I wrote Jewish/Christian/Muslim, I was referring to the same roots that not many official religious leader in the world will deny, so I don't see how you could either. I by means see the three as the same-I was pointing to the similarities in the particular questions of free will. And where do you get that I am walking the streets hunting for people to ask about faith? In my library there are several Bibles as well as Koran and the texts on religious interpretations, and on devotion I've read would fill many bookshelves. Can you say the same or would it be a great sin for you to read a text of the infidels?

[Logos]

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