Tolkien

[vrianto3]

Very new here. Just wondering why JRR Tolkien is not listed in the Author List? Is there a rule somewhere that this forum barred Tolkien? Or maybe I just missed it from the list. If this is a stupid question in this forum, will someone please enlighten me.

[Logos]

It's called copyright protection.

[bazarov]

There is no stupid question, just stupid answers, :nod: :nod: If writer died after 1923.,then his works are copyrighted. It's some book project and US law...

[Idril]

But maybe they're talking about the fact that he's not listed on the Author discussion board thing, not that his books aren't online because I've wondered that too...although maybe I'm wrong and then you can just ignore me.

[Logos]

Description of the forum area you are referring to (link) http://www.online-literature.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3156

"Discussion on Specific Authors & Books -- This forum is for specific discussion on any of the authors and books featured on this site. Most Popular: William Shakespeare, George Orwell. "

Feel free to start a topic about Tolkien in the "General Literature" section :)

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

[bazarov]

Please don't :lol: :lol:

[Mililalil XXIV]

Please don't :lol: :lol:
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Idril]

Please don't :lol: :lol:

I don't really have any intention of doing so but if I did, you wouldn't actually have to participate you know, you could just choose not to go there and then it would be like it didn't even exist for you. ;)

[Riddleman]

I never liked all the singing in the Lord of the Ring trilogy, but I reaaaaally like the riddles!


This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

What am I?

[Alexei]

The time. Isn't this one of Gollum's riddles?

[Adudaewen]

I never liked all the singing in the Lord of the Ring trilogy, but I reaaaaally like the riddles!


This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

What am I?


Time

That is one of Gollum's quotes from The Hobbit. I don't remember Lord of the Rings as having a lot of riddles, but the ones in the Hobbit were wonderful!
Personally I loved all the singing. The songs and stories are my favorite part. They give the book such depth and history.

[Alexei]

Personally I loved all the singing. The songs and stories are my favorite part. They give the book such depth and history.

Yes, you are right. Not only song but even the long beautiful descriptions give to the book its extreme engulfing and make it more close to the reality. Nowadays so many of my friends tell me: “The book is awesome, but the descriptions are so boring”. Why so few people could understand and appreciate the beauty of Tolkein’s language and manner of writing? I sometimes think that they just can’t realize that without these long accounts and singing the book wouldn’t be the same. I even ask myself sometimes would it really be a good book without them. I don’t say that the story is not extraordinary, in contrary – I think that the story is unique. But descriptions are makes closer to us. They give it vitality and this enchanting attractiveness which charms us.

[Idril]

I've never been overly fond of the singing myself. I think I read them through on my first read but in subsequent readings, I usually skip over them and I do at least have the good sense to feel bad about that. :blush: :p I appreciate the thought behind them, I appreciate how it deepens the sense of culture you get from reading the books, but I don't appreciate having to actually read them. If you like the verse, you should try The Lays of Beleriand, it's the 3rd book in the HoME series and it's basically the story of Beren and Luthien in verse, the whole thing is nothing but verse...the only book in that series I've never read. :p :lol:


I even ask myself sometimes would it really be a good book without them. I don’t say that the story is not extraordinary, in contrary – I think that the story is unique. But descriptions are makes closer to us. They give it vitality and this enchanting attractiveness which charms us.

I think that's very true. One of the things that make LOTR so real is because of the detailed descriptions, because of the history he created, the complete world he created and that couldn't have been done without all that description.

[Adudaewen]

I totally agree with you Alexei. What all the descriptions do for me is to totally engulf me in Middle Earth. The descriptions are so poetic to me. All my friends say the same thing, they say that the descriptions are tedious and hard to get through. But that was always my favorite thing. From the big sweeping descriptions of whole landscapes down to describing a flower. Tolkien is such a visual writer, its hard not to get totally lost in imagining.

[Idril]

Tolkien is such a visual writer, its hard not to get totally lost in imagining.

I think it speaks to Tolkien's talent for descriptions that the buildings, 'monsters', environments and people in the movies were so on target with what most people had imagined. The storyline was another story altogether but with very few exceptions, Lorien being one and 12 year old Hobbits being another, the physical aspects to Middle-earth was nearly perfect in the movie and I think that's because Tolkien gave the filmmakers so much to work with.

I've been really interested in Tolkien art lately for some reason and it's amazing to me the sheer number of artists and the depth of their work. Another testament to his talent to inspire people visually.

[andave_ya]

Definitely, Idril, the art is fantastical! Have you looked at the Lord of the Rings sketchbook by Alan Lee? He's the man who pretty much designed the sets of the movies. Also if you are interested visit the Council of Elrond website. Just type in Council of Elrond in the search engine and it should come up. It's an amazing site with a lot of hidden treasures about the LOTR books and movies. It even teaches Elvish!:nod: Maybe in the summer I'll learn.

[Alexei]

Alan Lee is one of the artists, Peter Jakson have connected with, when they start to make the screen and etc. So, that's way his pictures are so close to the film. Actually the film is close to his pictures :D However, I shall definitly visit this site, the one you are talking about - Council of Elrond. I would like to learn Elvish. If only I have more time...

[Laindessiel]

I think that's very true. One of the things that make LOTR so real is because of the detailed descriptions, because of the history he created, the complete world he created and that couldn't have been done without all that description.

I ditto that. I can almost hear the hobbits sing! (And I've read the books first before I've seen the movies.) Tolkien makes the world so unknown and the details are so entertaining that it gives us an enchanting way of viewing things in the Middle Earth. Tolkien is a star!


I would like to learn Elvish. If only I have more time...

Le suilon, Alexi! You can visit www.arwen-undomiel.com if you're interested. The site's great for introductory Elven topics!

(Laindessiel is actually the Elven equivalent of my real name. I got it from that site. ;))

[Alexei]

Thank you, I shall visit it at once! :)

[Shea]

I love the songs in Tolkiens works. But I have a deeper understanding of why he used so many and especially of a particular scene in the Hobbit. When you understand The Hobbit as another version of Beowulf, that scene when the dwarves invade Bilbo's home takes on a new meaning. At least it did for me. After dinner when they begin to pull out instruments, I was so ready to see a harp because that was the primary instrument (technically a lyre) that Beowulf would have been sung to. Lo! and Behold! Tolkien left the most important instrument to the most important dwarf. Then when the music mentally takes Bilbo on a journey across the lands, that represents how Beowulf (whom Bilbo represents) traveled from his land to help Hrothgar defeat Grendel. Song was important to the Anglo-Saxon people because they had no form of writing and so it helped them to preserve their history. That's why it's also so important to Tolkien.

Anyway, I hope Peter Jackson leaves that scene in the movie as I understand he's making it. I think Tolkien would have wanted him to.

[Idril]

Anyway, I hope Peter Jackson leaves that scene in the movie as I understand he's making it.


He's not. There's been some kind of dispute and he's not going to have anything to do with it which I think is a good thing. I'm not sure he would make it a light hearted adventure story, the way it was intended, I think he would have a tendency to make it dark and forboding like LOTR but the two are really nothing alike.

[Shea]

Oh,... that's a shame. I can see your point though in some instances. But there are parts of The Hobbit that are very dark and forboding. Such as Mirkwood and Gollum's cave (though the riddles tend to lighten that a bit).

[andave_ya]

Yup. No Jackson, unfortunately, for the Hobbit. The Council of Elrond is a marvelous site. There's a thread there where you also can get a buddy to show you around the site. If you are still interested, Alexei, I'd love to show you around there. I'm still kind of new, but... And I really love your avatar.

Laindessiel, did you get your avatar from arwen-undomiel? I've visited that site and I love the humor section. In the Council of Elrond (sorry, I'm a shameless plugger for the site) they also actually translate your name to either Quenya, Sindarin, or Rohirric. My pseudonym for litnet I actually got from there.
Andave ya means "long ago" in Quenya.:wave:

Err, Shea, what does your signature mean? Is it Old English? If so, I could pick out a couple of words. :nod:

[Alexei]

Yup. No Jackson, unfortunately, for the Hobbit. The Council of Elrond is a marvelous site. There's a thread there where you also can get a buddy to show you around the site. If you are still interested, Alexei, I'd love to show you around there. I'm still kind of new, but... And I really love your avatar.

Thank you, I would be glad if you do this for me :)

[Shea]

Err, Shea, what does your signature mean? Is it Old English? If so, I could pick out a couple of words. :nod:

Yes.:) It's the first 11 lines of Beowulf in Old English. I wasn't able to figure out how to get the eth, thorn and ashe symbols on there so it's kind of rough. When I (finally) make my first harp CD, I'm going to sing these words to it in as authentic a way as I could get. (not that I can sing, but I can carry a tune.:blush: )

[andave_ya]

Wow! Shea, that's really neat. I've never read Beowulf--I've heard it's rather fierce. I'd love to hear your cd, though. Harp? Amazing. On Friday I watched a special on tv: a televised concert of the singing group Celtic Woman. One of the singers, Orla Fallon, is a harpist, and she played and sang to a beautiful tune!

[andave_ya]

www.councilofelrond.com

Alexei, that's the website for the Council of Elrond. Click on it and it will take you to a page that is entitled the Council of Elrond, with the latest news underneath, and usually a poll of some sort. On the left side of the screen is a menu. Click on Languages and take your pick of the selections there. The rest of the site is really fun too. There are forums for both book-lovers and movie-lovers. Forums for poetry discussion. Role-playing. Though I don't think you can post in the forums unless you join. :)
Hope that works!

[Shea]

Wow! Shea, that's really neat. I've never read Beowulf--I've heard it's rather fierce. I'd love to hear your cd, though. Harp? Amazing. On Friday I watched a special on tv: a televised concert of the singing group Celtic Woman. One of the singers, Orla Fallon, is a harpist, and she played and sang to a beautiful tune!

I love Celtic Women! It's been playing off and on here. Everytime I catch it, I don't have the time to watch the whole thing. They have some amazing voices! I wish I could sing like that:bawling: .

Beowulf is great if you have a good translation. It's really gory in some parts so I was disappointed when I started teaching, that it wasn't in my curriculum. It also gives you a great understanding of the Anglo-Saxon people and what was important to them.

I'll let you know about my CD. It's something I've been talking about for years but have never really gotten around to. One of my biggest problems (other than studio fee) is royalties. Most of my songs are folksongs, so I don't have to pay for them (just get permission for the arrangments). But I want to put songs on there like "Into the West" from Return of the King. Those royalties are outrageous!

[Shea]

Wow! Shea, that's really neat. I've never read Beowulf--I've heard it's rather fierce. I'd love to hear your cd, though. Harp? Amazing. On Friday I watched a special on tv: a televised concert of the singing group Celtic Woman. One of the singers, Orla Fallon, is a harpist, and she played and sang to a beautiful tune!

I love Celtic Women! It's been playing off and on here. Everytime I catch it, I don't have the time to watch the whole thing. They have some amazing voices! I wish I could sing like that:bawling: .

Beowulf is great if you have a good translation. It's really gory in some parts so I was disappointed when I started teaching, that it wasn't in my curriculum. It also gives you a great understanding of the Anglo-Saxon people and what was important to them.

I'll let you know about my CD. It's something I've been talking about for years but have never really gotten around to. One of my biggest problems (other than studio fee) is royalties. Most of my songs are folksongs, so I don't have to pay for them (just get permission for the arrangments). But I want to put songs on there like "Into the West" from Return [/I][/I]of the King. Those royalties are outrageous!

[Shea]

sorry.....

[Adudaewen]

I love Beowulf, it is one of my favorite books!!! Probably why I loved Lord of the Rings so much, because it has the same depth of history, height of adventure, etc. :)

[Nasser]

gud author tolkien.. right?
LETS LIST HIM.

[crisaor]

There is no stupid question, just stupid answers, :nod: :nod: If writer died after 1923.,then his works are copyrighted. It's some book project and US law...
:confused:
Didn't Chesterton died in 1936? His works are available...
So are Orwell's, and he died in 1950. Probably a lot of others too.

According to Gutenberg's site (which I like to add, isn't very enlighting), the 1923 date is generally valid in the US for copyright date, not necessarily the death of the author. But there many exceptions, such as renewing the rights, but that leaves aside the fact that is weird that some best-selling books from many years before have been made available. Also, if a book is of public domain in the US but not in another country, downloading it from the net is an illegal act? All discussions aside, this order of things seems rather pointless.

The Online Books Library wasn't of much help either.

Truth be told, I have no idea why Tolkien's works are not legally available for download. Maybe the publisher house that has the rights is particularly enforcing? The movies must have landed them quite a bit of cash, surely.

[andave_ya]

I love Beowulf, it is one of my favorite books!!! Probably why I loved Lord of the Rings so much, because it has the same depth of history, height of adventure, etc.

Wow! If you like Beowulf because it's like LOTR, I'll definitely be reading Beowulf then. Can anyone tell me any good translations?

[Shea]

Wow! If you like Beowulf because it's like LOTR, I'll definitely be reading Beowulf then. Can anyone tell me any good translations?

Oooh yes read it!!! I think even Tolkein did a translation of it. Haven't read that one. My favorite was the one I studied in college. It's in the second edition of the Longman Anthology of British Literature. But if you can find it seperately, the translators were Alan Sullivan and Timothy Murphy (2002).

[andave_ya]

Thanks! I'll be stopping by the library soon...:goof: :banana:

[Adudaewen]

I hope you enjoy it andave, I got through it in about 2 hours and fell in love!

[andave_ya]

yes, I've got it waiting for me at the library. Unfortunately, I can't get to the library just yet, but I'm waiting eagerly. (when am I not waiting eagerly to go to the library?)

[Inderjit Sanghe]

Chris Tolkien will be releasing "The Children of Hurin" in April-I am looking forward to it, can't wait till it is released.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0007246226/sr=8-1/qid=1171747223/ref=pd_ka_1/026-3367750-0308417?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Idril]

I, too, am looking very forward to this new book. It doesn't sound like there's going to be any real new information, it will just be in a more readable form, right? It will be nice to have the definitive version of this story from beginning to end because it's such a great tragedy.

By the way, Inderjit, I love your signature. I'm a big fan of Fëanor myself, of all those First Age elves, he is my favorite, although I'm quite fond of Maedhros as well.

[Alexei]

I, too, am looking very forward to this new book. It doesn't sound like there's going to be any real new information, it will just be in a more readable form, right? It will be nice to have the definitive version of this story from beginning to end because it's such a great tragedy.

By the way, Inderjit, I love your signature. I'm a big fan of Fëanor myself, of all those First Age elves, he is my favorite, although I'm quite fond of Maedhros as well.
I suppose so, too. I hope I shall find it in my country after it is published, but the chances are not very good. Anyway, I shall find some way to find it.
I like Fëanor too, he was the great genius of elves, I think, and he was so creative. Still I think there was something human in him.

[Idril]

I like Fëanor too, he was the great genius of elves, I think, and he was so creative. Still I think there was something human in him.

He did have that passion that was so inherent in Men and so often lacking in Elves, although the First Age elves, as a general rule were more colorful than their later counterpoints. However, I don't think Fëanor would consider your comment a compliment. ;) :lol:

[Alexei]

He did have that passion that was so inherent in Men and so often lacking in Elves, although the First Age elves, as a general rule were more colorful than their later counterpoints. However, I don't think Fëanor would consider your comment a compliment. ;) :lol:

:angel: Do you think so? Yes, I think so too.:sick: :idea: Well, I hope he will forgive me about this ;) :p :lol:

[Inderjit Sanghe]

Fëanor was indeed great-completely insane, of course, but so are most great characters! I love the Noldor, they were by far the most "human" of all the Elves-the Vanyar were just plain boring and the Teleri (Sindar, Sylvan included) were too "Elvish" in their habits to resemble humans closely. The Noldor on the other hand were pretty "human"-bellicose, proud and they had a great love of science, plus the whole "tragic heroes" thing always gets to me-plus Fëanor had the added bonus of being a tragic genius! He was like the Raskolinkov of Middle-Earth, only he was way cooler.


First Age elves, as a general rule were more colorful than their later counterpoints

I think if you add "angry" and "interesting", or less weary of the world then you would be spot on.


Well, I hope he will forgive me about this

Don't hold your breath!

[Idril]

Fëanor was indeed great-completely insane, of course, but so are most great characters!

I don't think of him as being insane, misguided perhaps, a wee bit obsessive certainly but not out and out insane. :lol: His spirit was that of fire and he couldn't be expected to act in any other way. :)

As far as the Nolder, Vanyar and Teleri, you hit the nail on the head. The Vanyar are just too remote, we really don't know that much about them other than the fact that they were pretty and had blonde hair. The only Vanyar we really get to know are the half-Vanyar that come across the Helcaraxë with the Nolder, Idril, Galadriel and her brothers. And the Teleri...I just can't take them seriously. All they seem to really do is hang around the beach, finding pearls and singing. :rolleyes:


He was like the Raskolinkov of Middle-Earth, only he was way cooler.

:lol: :lol: I hadn't thought of that before but I do see a resemblance. He certainly did think himself to be a great man and didn't think he was subject to the rules other people were because of that greatness.


...or less weary of the world then you would be spot on.

I think that, right there, is the key.


:Well, I hope he will forgive me about this ;) :p :lol:


Well, I don't know you have much hope on that point, he didn't seem to be the forgiving type but what he doesn't know won't hurt him...or you. ;)

[Inderjit Sanghe]

[I don't think of him as being insane, misguided perhaps, a wee bit obsessive certainly but not out and out insane/QUOTE]

I am not sure-attempting to storm Angband by yourself is pretty damn insane! Lucky for Sauron, Fëanor wasn't around in the Second Age-after hearing about Sauron's amassing of an army following the creation of the One Ring, he problably would have stormed Mordor with 10 Elves, rather than sit and wait like Celebrimbor, or send his right-hand man like Gil-Galad and wait for some men to come to his aid! Even his sons thought he was mad-Amrod tells him so after he burns his ships and his younger son in the bargain, and Maedhros thinks he may kill himself after he hears about the death of his father and the theft of the Silmarils. He was also paranoid.

[QUOTE]As far as the Nolder, Vanyar and Teleri, you hit the nail on the head. The Vanyar are just too remote, we really don't know that much about them other than the fact that they were pretty and had blonde hair

And sang songs of reverence to Manwe and Varda....::( :yawnb:

There were, however, quite a few cool Sindar-Thingol, Luhtien, Mablung and Beleg to name a few-the Sindar weren't overly-bad I guess, nor the Sylvan Elves, just less cool than the Noldor. Don't want to stereotype, but I guess most the Vanyar were like the odious bore Finarfin, or his even more boring grandson Orodreth, Thingol's pet.

[Idril]

I am not sure-attempting to storm Angband by yourself is pretty damn insane!...Even his sons thought he was mad-Amrod tells him so after he burns his ships and his younger son in the bargain, and Maedhros thinks he may kill himself after he hears about the death of his father and the theft of the Silmarils. He was also paranoid.

I see your point, I do and I'm not necessarily arguing that you're wrong but I look at it a little differently. I think of Maedhros and when he finally snapped and sacked Doriath and the Havens of Sirion making Elrond and Elros, for all intents and purposes, orphans and then later when he threw himself into the chasm, that's insane. Maedhros was, at heart, a good person, maybe not along the lines or Finrod or anything but he was a good Elf, the Oath just eventually twisted his mind. But Fëanor was always a rebel, he was self-obsessed and paranoid with delusions of grandeur pretty much from the get-go. His mother even gave up her earthly body because he had sapped all the life out of it. He never played nicely with the other Elves, the things he did, the Kin-slaying, burning of the ships for example were all pretty much in keeping with his personality. And his sons, Maedhros and Maglor were quite civilized, Amrod and Amros were non-entities really but Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir were not nice elves either, they inherited much of their father's pride and sense of vengence. I think of Fëanor's issues as being those of temperment and an inflated sense of self-worth, not insanity.

Thingol has never been one of my favorites. He was mostly just an unpleasant old man who wanted to have his own way. He had his moments, I guess, when he wasn't a complete jerk but only that...moments. :rolleyes:

[Inderjit Sanghe]

Wouldn't say that was his fault per se, besides, Miriel gave up her body out of her own free will-Fëanor certainly didn't want or desire her death. A lot of Fëanor's problems problably arose from the singularity of his fate-he was the only Elf in Aman who didn't have a mother, Tolkien comments on the important role that both parents play in brining up their children-Fëanor was derpived of the "mother side" of his parental affections, besides that he was spoilt by Finwë. A recurrent theme in Tolkien's works is that the powerful often end up "going bad"-Morgoth was the most powerful of all the Ainur, Fëanor of the children of Eru, the Noldor of the Elves and the Numenoreans of men-Fëanor and the Noldor were problably the most noble of this recalcitrant quintet, but the general point remain-that the most powerful are the most open to rebellion-I guess this is, like so many of Tolkien's ideas, reflected in the "real world" as well. The problem with analysing the characteristics of Fëanor's sons is that Tolkien mainly describes their characters after the oath and rebellion, after which their souls were tainted-it would have been nice if Tolkien had listed their more positive, pre-oath characteristics.

Yes, Thingol could be a bit of jerk, but he had nice silver hair and was very tall. I wonder how the Dwarves really managed to kill him...

[Idril]

Wouldn't say that was his fault per se, besides, Miriel gave up her body out of her own free will-Fëanor certainly didn't want or desire her death.

I didn't mean to infer it was his fault or list that among his misdeeds. I meant it to show the strength of his will from the beginning, the strength that was taken from Miriel in bringing him to life was such that she had no will left to live. He obviously didn't wish his mother to trade her life for his but that's the way it worked. I mentioned that in reference to my opinion that Fëanor was from the beginning powerful, destructive and a force to be reckoned with, that those personality traits that you point to as evidence of his insanity were there from birth and part of his natural temperment.

We may not know a lot about the sons of Fëanor before the Oath but we know enough about Fëanor's personality before the Oath to feel fairly confident Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir came about their nasty dispositions honestly. ;)


Yes, Thingol could be a bit of jerk, but he had nice silver hair and was very tall. I wonder how the Dwarves really managed to kill him...

He may have had nice silver hair and was tall but he was still a very petty elf. :p With every reread of The Silmarillion I dislike him more intensely. Those dwarves were just so consumed with wrath because he was such a monumental ***, there was no stopping them. I have no idea what Melian saw in him that she was willing to leave the bliss of Valinor to live by his sad little side. :rolleyes:

[EAP]

Feanor was a villian.

The 'taint' in Feanor's sons was not a consequence of the oath, rather it was the other way around.


I have no idea what Melian saw in him that she was willing to leave the bliss of Valinor to live by his sad little side.

It was the same Thingol who fostered Turin and aided his uneqivocally.

[Idril]

It was the same Thingol who fostered Turin and aided his uneqivocally.

Well, as I said, he had his moments when he wasn't a complete jerk and that was one of them. ;)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the comment that Fëanor's sons tainted the oath. Is that what you mean? That because they were horrible people, the oath took a bad turn? I not sure there is any way that oath could've brought about good things, I think it was, in and of itself, a bad thing that could only bring grief. They could've chosen to not take it I suppose but I don't think any of them thought that a real possibility with Fëanor breathing down their necks.

[EAP]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the comment that Fëanor's sons tainted the oath. Is that what you mean? That because they were horrible people, the oath took a bad turn? I not sure there is any way that oath could've brought about good things, I think it was, in and of itself, a bad thing that could only bring grief. They could've chosen to not take it I suppose but I don't think any of them thought that a real possibility with Fëanor breathing down their necks.

No I think I basically agree with you. Inder phrased his words in a manner which implied that the bad qualities in Feanor's sons crept in as a consequence of the oath. I believe some of them were bad seeds to begin with and others just got caught up in the moment.

By the way, Beleg was cool. Beleg was the best. Beleg Strongbow rules.

[Inderjit Sanghe]

It is difficult to assess the nature of Feanor's sons prior to the oath simply because little is written by them-they may have had bad qualities, but so did every other Elves, the oath merely made them "more bad" than other Elves. I do not think they would have been anywhere near as bad if they had never rebelled, taken the oath etc. their latter behaviour was a consequence of their actions during the rebellion. You must also remember that when the sons of Feanor were growing up, the Noldor were starting to feel discontented-the "shadow", or fall, had crept over all of them, as Tolkien notes. Funnily enough, when talking about Feanor's speech, many of the Elves claimed it was like being drunk....he must have been a great orator!

However, I am slightly biased because I have a thing for the Noldor, and the Finweans in particular.

[Idril]

It's no doubt the Oath brought out the worst in Fëanor's Sons. I do think Maedhros and Maglor could've gone on to live good lives if had not been for that but of course that is just an opinion because I happen to be quite fond of Maedhros.

Everytime Fëanor has a speech I get goosebumps. I can almost hear his powerful voice damning all the Vala. :lol: He was a villian, I have no problem admitting that but he was a very fascinating villian.