Is John Donne’s poetry sexist?

[The Unnamable]

Here is a selection of lines from Donne’s poetry. Given that he has the reputation of being one of the literary world’s great love poets, my question is, ‘does he express offensively sexist attitudes?'. Even if he isn’t ‘serious’, is this acceptable to our better-informed modern age? Should his work be banned from examination syllabuses?

“Hope not for mind in women ; at their best,
Sweetness and wit they are, but mummy, possess'd.”
from Loves Alchemy

Here Donne is saying that there is no point in expecting to find intelligence in women. The best you can hope for is “Sweetness and wit” but once you’ve ‘had them’ (I think that’s the expression), they are merely dead shells.


Now thou hast loved me one whole day,
To-morrow when thou leavest, what wilt thou say?
From Woman’s Constancy

The implication here is that woman can’t be faithful for more than a day.

I can love both fair and brown;
Her whom abundance melts, and her whom want betrays;
Her who loves loneness best, and her who masks and plays;
Her whom the country form'd, and whom the town;
Her who believes, and her who tries;
Her who still weeps with spongy eyes,
And her who is dry cork, and never cries.
I can love her, and her, and you, and you;
I can love any, so she be not true.
from The Indifferent

Here Donne lumps women into a series of simple categories according to things like hair colour and body shape. How demeaning!

The venom of all stepdames, gamesters' gall,
What tyrants and their subjects interwish,
What plants, mine, beasts, fowl, fish,
Can contribute, all ill, which all
Prophets or poets spake, and all which shall
Be annex'd in schedules unto this by me,
Fall on that man; For if it be a she
Nature beforehand hath out-cursèd me.
From The Curse

Now this is really nasty. He is saying that his curses, however vicious, cannot match the curse of being a woman.

When my grave is broke up again
Some second guest to entertain,
For graves have learn'd that woman-head,
To be to more than one a bed—
from The Relic

Here he is saying that infidelity is a common female characteristic. How dare he make such negative generalisations!

What I will say, I will not tell thee now,
Lest that preserve thee; and since my love is spent,
I'd rather thou shouldst painfully repent,
Than by my threatenings rest still innocent.
from The Apparition

This is also rather nasty. The word ‘spent’ carries overtones of having had an orgasm. He is hoping the woman doesn’t repent because, having used her sexually, he would prefer to see her suffer than be contrite.

Licence my roving hands, and let them go
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O, my America, my Newfoundland,
My kingdom, safest when with one man mann'd,

Here, he is comparing women to countries and suggesting that women are ‘safest’ when ruled by just one man. He also sounds like a molester.

and

Like pictures, or like books' gay coverings made
For laymen, are all women thus array'd.
Themselves are only mystic books, which we
—Whom their imputed grace will dignify—
Must see reveal'd.
from Elegy XX. To His Mistress Going To Bed

Here, he is comparing women to book covers! How sexist! He is also suggesting that ‘we’ need to see them naked. Does Johnny Donne not realise that there’s more to a woman than naked flesh?


If thou be'st born to strange sights,
Things invisible to see,
Ride ten thousand days and nights,
Till age snow white hairs on thee,
Thou, when thou return'st, wilt tell me,
All strange wonders that befell thee,
And swear,
No where
Lives a woman true and fair.

If thou find'st one, let me know,
Such a pilgrimage were sweet;
Yet do not, I would not go,
Though at next door we might meet,
Though she were true, when you met her,
And last, till you write your letter,
Yet she
Will be
False, ere I come, to two, or three.
from Song (Go and catch a falling star)

These lines suggest that there is no such thing as an attractive faithful woman. I think he is also implying that faithful women are only faithful if they are ugly because then men won’t want them. He then changes it a bit to saying that even if you could find an attractive faithful woman, by the time you have told someone, she will have been unfaithful with two or three men.

Taken together, these comments seem like a damning indictment of women. Should such sexist propaganda be venerated as great Literature? Isn’t it merely legitimising hostility to women by including material like this on examination syllabuses?

Yours,
Outraged of Camden

[Dark Lady]

Yesterday when I decided to revise for my exams by reading poetry and thinking about how I would analyse it you posted on exactly that and now today when I decide to focus specifically on Donne (and particularly on how he porteays women) I come across this post! You haven't also posted anything on Browning and his portrayal of women somewhere by any chance?

Well obviously since I have decided to write about Donne in my exam I don't think Donne's poetry should be taken off exam syllabuses. Even if he is sexist. These views were widely held at the time and if we decided to get rid of everthing that is not now 'PC' from syllabuses we'd end up with a fairly slim choice!

[Dark Lady]

I just realised that I didn't get round to saying whether I even thought Donne was sexist in my last post. My answer is that I don't think so. How seriously are we supposed to take the poems in which he says these things? Isn't he just showing the absurdity of the way women were portrayed at the time? What about his poetry that shows a better portrayal of women?

[rachel]

I think he was probably sexist but didn't realize maybe since the world at large in my opinion was anyway. It was normal,by and large not malicious.

[The Unnamable]

Browning and his portrayal of women somewhere by any chance?
:lol: Sorry, I don’t like Browning, although My Last Duchess is worth reading and interesting from this perspective.



How seriously are we supposed to take the poems in which he says these things?
How seriously are we supposed to take Outraged of Camden? ;)


Isn't he just showing the absurdity of the way women were portrayed at the time?
I’m not sure about this. Is he really holding it up as absurd or is his emphasis elsewhere? He seems to be enjoying it far too much to be simply making fun of it. I have taught students who complain that his humour, though witty and ingenious, does patronise women. They ask me if he had ‘been’ racist instead of sexist, would we still admire him. I order them to shut up and believe what I tell them.


What about his poetry that shows a better portrayal of women?
Indeed – I agree – it’s easy to pick out particular comments and misrepresent the whole but the whole is just too much for some people.

PS Someone has sent me a PM to complain of my use of 'syllabuses'. :D This is the problem with ‘correct usage’ – you can’t win. ‘Syllabuses’ has been given official status as the acceptable plural and using ‘syllabi’ is now reckoned to be rather pedantic and pompous. As I say, either way you are damned – pedantic or incorrect. I used it here because the UK and international examination boards use ‘syllabuses’.

Thanks to the person who sent the PM - I hope you aren’t too disappointed that I did know the difference. ;)

Does anyone have an example of my misuse of the semi-colon anywhere? ;)

[rachel]

nope, you don't make mistakes dear Unnameable. That is why I look up to you-always.

[shamal]

hi unnamable, though u r right that there is something vulgar about women in donne'poetry but on the other hand, he tellls us about the depth of love and fidelity of his beloved. i will give u an instance from "the releque" when he says, "thou shalt be a Mary Magdalen, and I a something else thereby" on the whole, i will say, he is a great poet of english literature

[Shanna]

Does anyone have an example of my misuse of the semi-colon anywhere? ;) :lol: :lol: I'm sure I can find something.

[Shanna]

Taken together, these comments seem like a damning indictment of women. Should such sexist propaganda be venerated as great Literature? Isn’t it merely legitimising hostility to women by including material like this on examination syllabuses?

Yours,
Outraged of Camden

Forgive me for not having elaborated upon my opinion before, but, as you may know, my plate - has been rather fuller than usual these last few days. The demands upon one’s time are great and one’s capacities finite. In any case, now that the aforementioned plate has been safely gotten out of harm’s way, I am here to give your questions my fullest attention.

Venerated as great Literature? Banned, Sir, I say it should be banned!

This is blasphemy against the good name of woman. How dare any man commit this sacrilege? How can we force ourselves to permit such ideas to exist in another’s mind in this day and age? Do we not have even a scrap of conscience within us? Do we?! We are all aware of the decades of effort made by feminists like Wollstonecraft to the end of freeing society of precisely such notions of womanhood. Are we to let all that effort be reduced to nothing, are we to allow such blatantly sexist and politically incorrect matter to remain in circulation today, and as if that were not enough – (gasp!) allow it to be taught to our children? Are we to permit the proliferation of such ideas of the objectification of women and the treatment of them as mere sources of pleasure when years of reform have gone into making society even as liberal as it is today on the question of women’s rights?

We cannot, with all our education and learning, allow such ideas to infiltrate the minds of our poor, unsuspecting youth. Are we not their elders and betters? Do we not owe it to them to give them the best of our civilization and keep from them the unhealthy bits, do we not owe them the benefit of our collective wisdom? It is our duty to the poor, unsuspecting youth to protect them from things that are detrimental to their growth and to lead them on to more fruitful pastures. The poor, unsuspecting youth are obviously incapable of making up their own little minds on the subject. Therefore, it is my honest opinion that such pieces of garbage ought to be deleted from university syllabuses on account of their being insulting and malicious in nature.

[chmpman]

Now I'm sure you're playing devil's advocate here, but I would still like to add my opinion. You seem all too willing to take the easy way out in dealing with literature that does not adhere to your own 21st century moralistic sense of great art. I say this is the easy way out because it would be a much more trying undertaking if literature such as this was taught under the guiding influence of instructors who are willing to address these issues. (may sound rather idealistic, but, eh, what the hell) I believe Toni Morrison has written about her belief that all literature, even that which is blatantly racist, should be taught in the classroom. The benefit of this approach is that it brings into the light of public scrutiny such beliefs that are malignant cancers in need of detection and eradication.

So whether or not Donne is sexist, as these singular excerpts suggest, is not important to if Donne should be taught, but rather how he should be taught.

Anyway, I'm not familiar enough with Donne to say my opinion on the original question, but if I were I would be glad to share it.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I quite agree with Shanna, such blatantly one-sided, sexist, repugnant and above all, accurate insights into the female psyche should be purged from all public bookshelves immediately and replaced with uplifting books about survivors of domestic abuse and Jade Goody's and Ulrika Johnsson's "auto"biographies - so that we can get an insight into how nice women really are (sic.).

[Shanna]

and above all, accurate insights into the female psyche .. (Gasp!) :eek:

Et tu, Xamonas?

[Petrarch's Love]

Oh, I definately agree with Shanna, but I say why stop with Donne? Why not throw out all the Renaissance poets. I mean Milton wasn't exactly a feminist, and Spenser and Shakespeare, and Sidney are all highly un-PC. Come to think of it, why not ban all works before the twenty-first century. I'm sure our own enlightened age is completely purged of any and all objectionable beliefs. Future ages will hail us for our complete and perfect Utopian wisdom. This way there would be absolutely no need for students to think about or question the texts presented to them. No more having to worry about all those knotty historical questions that hurt the brain. Not to metion, just think of the number of pesky academics you could get rid of that way. It wouldn't take more than a single part-time instructor to teach nothing but the most rigorously screened and acceptable literature of the past six years.

[Petrarch's Love]

and above all, accurate insights into the female psyche :rolleyes:

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Are you all telling me that Donne wasn't a curate? :confused:

[Shanna]

.. how nice women really are (sic.).Oh my avatar will tell you that. :D

[jackyyyy]

I thought what Unnamable did was quite a poem in itself:



Hope not for mind in women ; at their best,
Sweetness and wit they are, but mummy, possess'd.
Now thou hast loved me one whole day,
To-morrow when thou leavest, what wilt thou say?

I can love both fair and brown;
Her whom abundance melts, and her whom want betrays;
Her who loves loneness best, and her who masks and plays;
Her whom the country form'd, and whom the town;
Her who believes, and her who tries;
Her who still weeps with spongy eyes,
And her who is dry cork, and never cries.
I can love her, and her, and you, and you;
I can love any, so she be not true.

The venom of all stepdames, gamesters' gall,
What tyrants and their subjects interwish,
What plants, mine, beasts, fowl, fish,
Can contribute, all ill, which all
Prophets or poets spake, and all which shall
Be annex'd in schedules unto this by me,
Fall on that man; For if it be a she
Nature beforehand hath out-cursèd me.

When my grave is broke up again
Some second guest to entertain,
For graves have learn'd that woman-head,
To be to more than one a bed—
What I will say, I will not tell thee now,
Lest that preserve thee; and since my love is spent,
I'd rather thou shouldst painfully repent,
Than by my threatenings rest still innocent.

Licence my roving hands, and let them go
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O, my America, my Newfoundland,
My kingdom, safest when with one man mann'd,
Like pictures, or like books' gay coverings made
For laymen, are all women thus array'd.
Themselves are only mystic books, which we
—Whom their imputed grace will dignify—
Must see reveal'd.

If thou be'st born to strange sights,
Things invisible to see,
Ride ten thousand days and nights,
Till age snow white hairs on thee,
Thou, when thou return'st, wilt tell me,
All strange wonders that befell thee,
And swear,
No where
Lives a woman true and fair.

If thou find'st one, let me know,
Such a pilgrimage were sweet;
Yet do not, I would not go,
Though at next door we might meet,
Though she were true, when you met her,
And last, till you write your letter,
Yet she
Will be
False, ere I come, to two, or three.
I don't know if there is a law prohibiting collaging text together like that, if there is, kindly remove this post, and string me up.

[The Unnamable]

if there is, kindly remove this post, and string me up.
I can hear thunder rumbling in the distance.....

[The Unnamable]

You seem all too willing to take the easy way out in dealing with literature that does not adhere to your own 21st century moralistic sense of great art.
I am not bothered in the slightest that Donne is ‘sexist’. I have enjoyed his poetry for over twenty years and am no more in favour of banning his work than Shanna is. I hate the attempt by patronising half-wits endowed with some spurious authority to cleanse the curriculum of anything deemed unpalatable to our fake modern sensibilities. You will find the same fatuous conceit in most self-appointed custodians of all that is wise and good.


So whether or not Donne is sexist, as these singular excerpts suggest, is not important to if Donne should be taught, but rather how he should be taught.
While this is true, what it has meant in practical terms is that Literature has been appropriated (as it always has been, of course) to serve the interests of a narrow-minded political agenda spawned by the supposedly egalitarian ideal of respect for everyone, no matter how objectionable or banal. I remember looking at one of the ‘A’ Level (post 16) Shakespeare papers a few years ago and noticing that every question on each of the texts was about the representation of women, colonialism or issues of race. There’s probably not an English undergraduate course left that doesn’t require you to read Kate Chopin. There is even a thread on this board dedicated specifically to identifying homosexual writers. It’s good to know that now writers are being considered by virtue of how they sleep with someone rather than according to anything as elitist as literary talent. Mind you, when I discovered that Wilfred Owen was ‘gay’, it improved his poetry immeasurably for me. And I, for one, look forward to our first discussion here of the poetry of visually impaired, bisexual, Hindu hunchbacks. Cultural diversity is such a wonderful thing – as long as it isn’t extended to include the output of white, able-bodied, heterosexual males.

[jackyyyy]

Cultural diversity is such a wonderful thing – as long as it isn’t extended to include the output of white, able-bodied, heterosexual males.What? You got something against them? :lol:

[The Unnamable]

These views were widely held at the time and if we decided to get rid of everthing that is not now 'PC' from syllabuses we'd end up with a fairly slim choice!
That’s a small price to pay for global harmony.


I mean Milton wasn't exactly a feminist, and Spenser and Shakespeare, and Sidney are all highly un-PC.
If true, this comes as quite a shock to me. I thought the point of all these writers was to help us celebrate and bask in the ineffable fluffiness of life’s magical journey.

[chmpman]

I am not bothered in the slightest that Donne is ‘sexist’. I have enjoyed his poetry for over twenty years and am no more in favour of banning his work than Shanna is.

Actually my post was in response to Shanna's, where she argued that he should be banned. I assumed she was playing devil's advocate but felt inclined to post my views anyhow.

[therascalqueen]

It's good to discuss whether work that really is sexist should be included in syllabi, but no one's tried to determine yet whether that applies to Donne. I think the Unnamable was wrong about most of these excerpts. I almost wonder if s/he was joking with some of these. Check it out:


“Hope not for mind in women ; at their best,
Sweetness and wit they are, but mummy, possess'd.”
from Loves Alchemy

It sounds to me like Donne's trying to comfort himself in this poem for losing a woman he wanted to commit to--taking a sour grapes perspective. The first stanza is about how he doesn't understand the secret to love, but would he say that if he didn't want to know the answer?


Now thou hast loved me one whole day,
To-morrow when thou leavest, what wilt thou say?
From Woman’s Constancy

"The implication here is that woman can’t be faithful for more than a day."

Um, except that he ends with "For by to-morrow I may think so too." He's not accusing the woman of any falseness he's not at risk of himself.


I can love both fair and brown;
Her whom abundance melts, and her whom want betrays;
Her who loves loneness best, and her who masks and plays;
Her whom the country form'd, and whom the town;
Her who believes, and her who tries;
Her who still weeps with spongy eyes,
And her who is dry cork, and never cries.
I can love her, and her, and you, and you;
I can love any, so she be not true.
from The Indifferent

It's just silly to say that giving examples is the same as objectifying women. He's making the long point that he likes any kind of woman as long as she's untrue--a condition that persists today.

The venom of all stepdames, gamesters' gall,
What tyrants and their subjects interwish,
What plants, mine, beasts, fowl, fish,
Can contribute, all ill, which all
Prophets or poets spake, and all which shall
Be annex'd in schedules unto this by me,
Fall on that man; For if it be a she
Nature beforehand hath out-cursèd me.
From The Curse

"Now this is really nasty. He is saying that his curses, however vicious, cannot match the curse of being a woman."

OK, Unnameable, I just don't see how you get that. "If it be a she" [the one who thinks she knows who his mistress is] Nature's out-cursed him--this is Donne giving women credit for perception. If a woman says she knows who his mistress is, Donne knows he's screwed and all his curses aren't worth anything, because he expects the woman to be right.

When my grave is broke up again
Some second guest to entertain,
For graves have learn'd that woman-head,
To be to more than one a bed—
from The Relic

This is one of the ones that made me wonder if you were joking, or just trying to stir up debate. This whole poem is in celebration of a love that was so mutual the couple didn't even feel their gender differences.

What I will say, I will not tell thee now,
Lest that preserve thee; and since my love is spent,
I'd rather thou shouldst painfully repent,
Than by my threatenings rest still innocent.
from The Apparition

"This is also rather nasty. The word ‘spent’ carries overtones of having had an orgasm. He is hoping the woman doesn’t repent because, having used her sexually, he would prefer to see her suffer than be contrite."

Do you know for a fact that "spent" also meant orgasm for Donne, or are you sure you're not confusing him with Austin Powers? At any rate, since he begins the poem by threatening to die from the woman's scorn, obviously he still has feelings for her.

Licence my roving hands, and let them go
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O, my America, my Newfoundland,
My kingdom, safest when with one man mann'd,

"Here, he is comparing women to countries and suggesting that women are ‘safest’ when ruled by just one man. He also sounds like a molester."
A molester! They're having sex . . .

and

Like pictures, or like books' gay coverings made
For laymen, are all women thus array'd.
Themselves are only mystic books, which we
—Whom their imputed grace will dignify—
Must see reveal'd.
from Elegy XX. To His Mistress Going To Bed

"Here, he is comparing women to book covers! How sexist! He is also suggesting that ‘we’ need to see them naked. Does Johnny Donne not realise that there’s more to a woman than naked flesh?"

No, he's comparing women to books and suggesting that fancy clothing is a needless distraction from a woman's true worth.


If thou be'st born to strange sights,
Things invisible to see,
Ride ten thousand days and nights,
Till age snow white hairs on thee,
Thou, when thou return'st, wilt tell me,
All strange wonders that befell thee,
And swear,
No where
Lives a woman true and fair.

If thou find'st one, let me know,
Such a pilgrimage were sweet;
Yet do not, I would not go,
Though at next door we might meet,
Though she were true, when you met her,
And last, till you write your letter,
Yet she
Will be
False, ere I come, to two, or three.
from Song (Go and catch a falling star)

And sure, this one isn't very pro-woman, but taken in context of his other poems where he admits that men are also unfaithful and shows that women can be wiser than men--in The Relic, "All women shall adore us, and some men"--it hardly ought to mark him as a sexist artist.

[Cinnabar]

<<For if it be a she
Nature beforehand hath out-cursèd me.
From The Curse


I think the Unnameable's understanding is the correct one. God cursed all womenkind because of the transgression of Eve - so Donne does not have to bother like he does in the case of a man who gives his mistress's name away.

I have never thought that the point of great literature to be the absorption of all its underlying values. Diversity means reading from a wider range so that you can develop your own values. Unbeknownest to the PC camp, we owe these great writers in part the debt of egalitarianism under whose banners they now seek to destroy their ancestry. This has always been one of my favorite images of sex in its intoxicated discovery, bliss, and possession:

Licence my roving hands, and let them go
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O, my America, my Newfoundland,
My kingdom, safest when with one man mann'd,

Can a woman say that to a man? Absolutely! A woman to a woman, a man to a man? It's universal! It's the evolving conviction that romantic love is centered in a unique individual that contributed to the gender relations we have today. Of course he is sexist. But he is also humorous, self-deprecating, self-conscious, conflicted, distraught, and inspired - he lets you know. When you are reading him you are having a discourse, not being brainwashed. Sexism is only one of the historical conditions that underpin his genius. What is the big deal? We can deal with it.

Indeed, when we keep saying that the narrator of these lines can only be a man, what sort of message does that convey? We are thrusting the shackles back into the fire to reforge them. It's patently absurd. The beauty of great literature is that even if the privileged few wishes to appropriate it for their own use it cannot be done. Even Heathcliff, irritating and misogynist as he is, has something to offer me - a glimpse of a broken soul in turmoil, a state of being to briefly identify with, to pity and ultimately to shrink from in recognition that somewhere in my own psyche lies such possibilities. And yes - to show me that such a partner in love is undesirable so I can dispense with less well-written self-help books.

As a woman, I am grateful that literary education has become more sensitive to these issues, but by now I think we have overshot ourselves. It's the social and economic context that the PC camp should focus on now - the last time I checked, childcare problems remain unsolved, and the New York Times and the Washington Post assume, when discussing whether women should stay home or at work, that child care and housework would remain OUR exclusive responsibility. You can call up a reporter or your Congresswoman a lot quicker than you can Donne or Spenser.