A Theatre for Spenserians

[Petrarch's Love]

Since there's at least one other Spenser fan running periodically in and out of the forests of this forum I thought I'd start a thread where anyone interested in things Spenserian can post. Comments, questions, encomium, or criticism of Spenser and his works is welcome here. Those who are wondering why I'm not posting in the "Spenser" thread of the individual author section are clearly unaware of the shocking fact that such a thread does not exist. I think there should be threats of challenge to mortal combat if such a situation persists!

Britomart--since this is really a continuation of our little chat and since it's likely you're the only one here (:lol: ), I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a woman (since we'd already had a mix up, I figured you might want to know that). I'm in a PhD program and just finishing my final year of coursework. I specialize in Renaissance poetry, especially the epic/romance genre, and I've been absolutely entranced with FQ since I first picked it up as a freshman undergraduate. I love the many ways it can be enjoyed: for the very sound of Spenser's wonderful verse, for the entertainment of the adventures, for the allegory, for the complexity of...well everything. Anyway, gotta run now, but I'll look forward to hearing from you and any others who show up.

[IrishCanadian]

So ... can you post a poem by Spencer since I assume that I'm not the only one not familiar with his/her (?) works? Ora link? MAybe I just live under a rock called Yeats fan ... I should read more, other, stuff.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi there Irish Canadian. Edmund Spenser was a poet in the Elizabethan period (roughly the generation just before Shakespeare). Unfortunately, at least for the purposes of posting, Spenser's best and most famous work is The Faerie Queene, which is one of the longest poems in the English language (definately the longest epic poem in English). I'll give you a link to Spenser's complete works (http://www.english.cam.ac.uk/spenser/texts.htm) in case you're curious though. If you want to read around in the Faerie Queene at all I would say books one and three are the best/most widely read. The unfinished book seven (also known as the mutability cantos) is also a shorter read that can almost be read as an independent poem. If you don't want to tackle something of epic proportions you might read around in his sonnet sequence, The Amoretti, or some of his shorter poems like the Epithalamion (a beautiful poem written for the event of his own marriage) or Muiopotmus, which is a really fun little mock epic about a courageous butterfly warrior.

It wouldn't be surprising that an Irish Yeats fan hadn't read much Spenser. The one really awful thing in Spenser's oevre is his prose work, "On the Present State of Ireland" which is quite shockingly imperialistic about replacing the Irish culture with an English one. He lived much of his life in Ireland, and awful as his treatise sounds today, I think it's one of those things you have to chalk up to common views of his culture in that time period in the same way people view anti-semitism in Shakespeare or misogyny in various poets. I would certainly encourage people to get to know Spenser's poetic works before looking at his controversial, and less impressively written prose, since his poetry displays a really masterful use of language well worth being familiar with for its artistic merit alone if nothing else.

[IrishCanadian]

Thanks ... I've now got my reading cut out for me. But I'm certainly not complaining.

[mono]

I remember once trying to read Spenser's The Faerie Queene, and found it quite difficult, especially in its original Old English - full of worthy metaphors in beautifully written poetry, however, and a work that I cannot but admire.
Also, if I remember correctly, Spenser, just like Shakespeare and Petrarch, created his own sonnet style - abab bcbc cdcd ee - perhaps the least known, as many poets used the Shakespearean (English) style, and a few Petrarchan (Italian), including Elizabeth Barrett-Browning in her Sonnets From The Portuguese. Edmund Spenser's sonnets, however, I found just as romantic and touching as those of William Shakespeare and Petrarch. One of which I remember reading:

My love is like to ice, and I to fire:
How comes it then that this her cold so great
Is not dissolved through my so hot desire,
But harder grows the more I her entreat?
Or how comes it that my exceeding heat
Is not allayed by her heart-frozen cold,
But that I burn much more in boiling sweat,
And feel my flames augmented manifold?
What more miraculous thing may be told,
That fire, which all things melts, should harden ice,
And ice, which is congealed with senseless cold,
Should kindle fire by wonderful device?
Such is the power of love in gentle mind,
That it can alter all the course of kind.

[britomart]

Dear Irish Canadian,
There are short sections of "The Faerie Qveene" that can be picked out and enjoyed. It is best to have an academic copy with notes, because as it is in English, it is not as we know it. The editor A.C. Hamilton is the one to look out for.

Book 1 canto 1 verses 1 to 26 is a good introduction.

Book 3 canto 6 verse 29 on contains the Gardins of Adonis section

[britomart]

Book 2 canto 12 contains the superb Bower of Bliss - verse 42 on

Book 3 canto 12 is a tour de force of Spenserian weirdness.

Politics - I think it was David Lowenthal who wrote a book called "The Past is a Foreign Country". I haven't noticed the urge to invade anywhere since reading Spenser's poetry.

[britomart]

Dear Petrach's Love,
Ah, I've found the button on this computer thing that will give me a decent sized plain to prick upon.

The fact that you are a Phd student will make me watch my p's and q's. I am a fifty year old trailer park intellectual who recently studied an M.A. in Rennaisance and Romantic Literature at a respected University. My dissertation was on the allegory of books 1 to 3 of "The Faerie Qveene", which grew to volatile looks at allegory in general (look what it did to Northrop Frye . . . ) (Try a thing called "Watt" by Beckett, more of a semiotic trap for the unwary than a novel). A Phd or M.Phil was a possibilty, but it has never been followed up. Might do it one day, but don't really know if I want to think that hard.

My first brush with Spenser was the Gardens of Adonis at degree level - not given as a study piece but rather shown to students to illustrate what Milton read. It instantly fascinated me.

[britomart]

I'm interested in what you are studying, so please post up some titles.

My interest in the older material of the M.A. course was drawn to sonnets in general, some Jonson (hilarious stuff), a bit of Marlowe and Spenser for the dissertation.

My enthusiasm in the Romantic material studied was mainly for Shelley's work, and it was interesting to read Spenser's influence on him (for instance Giantesses popping up and the use of allegorical figures). Whilst you must be busy in your final year, Shelley's "Triumph of Life" is a demanding but worthwhile read if you have the time.

England - have you ever been here? It is far from chivalrous these days (not that it probably ever was in the first place), but you can go to a castle and stand on the spot where Richard the second prayed.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Britomart--Good idea to give Irish some more easy to digest segments of the Faerie Qveene.

So, I'm glad to meet you. Never mind worrying about the p's and q's, just the FQ. ;) Your work comparing the Renaissance and the Romantics sounds interesting. That's something I've always thought would be intriguing to look into someday since I've always enjoyed reading the Romantic poets for pleasure (Keats is one of my favorites) but have never had the chance to examine the later period with any kind of scholarly depth. I haven't read Shelley's "Triumph of Life." Maybe I'll stick it on my list of things to read this summer when I'm not too swamped with coursework to read anything not directly related to research for class.

You asked me for titles I'm working with. I also came to the Renaissance with an interest in sonnets, which led to a thesis comparing different sonnet sequences (an intro on Petrarch and chapters on Du Bellay, Garcilaso, Sidney, Spenser, and Shakespeare). I've also had a long time interest in the relationship between poetry and the visual arts in the Med/Ren periods, including papers on Spenser and emblems, and Dante's treatment of art in the Divina Commedia. I have some interest in comparative work as well, particularly the influence of the Italian epic/romance (Ariosto, Tasso, and to a lesser extent Boiardo) in relationship to English authors such as Spenser and Milton. At this particular moment I'm working on a paper for one class on The Tempest, and another one comparing some non-dramatic poetry by Shakespeare and Jonson (as you say, some hilarious stuff). Since I'm done with coursework this term, I've been preparing my three reading lists for for the oral exams next year which involves reading three lists of books in my fields of specialization with an examination by my comittee at the end of the year (the idea is both to ensure that you have a thorough general knowledge to teach and to use the time to come up with dissertation ideas). So far I've really been enjoying coming up with titles I'd like to spend some time getting to know well.

As for England, I've been there only once for a few weeks just after I graduated highschool. I mostly spent time in London, doing the round of museums and pubs probably typical for most tourists. I also spent a few nights in Salisbury and took a day length pilgrimage to Canterbury and an afternoon in Stratford on Avon. I'd love to go back again. Maybe I can find some sort of travel fellowship for my dissertation year or something. If I get the chance I'll have to "go to a castle and stand on the spot where Richard II prayed." Ever been to the States? I'm originally from California but in Chicago now for my studies.

So you first got to know Spenser with the Garden of Adonis segment? Pretty nice introduction. Is it still a favorite or is there some other piece of the FQ you like better now? I remember being assigned the first canto of book one for a survey course as a freshman and finding myself somewhere in book three by the end of the weekend. I was dismayed to find the rest of the class was less enthusiastic in their reception of Spenser --maybe that should have been my first hint that literary scholarship was the career for me. :lol:

Well, I'd best go for now.

[mono]

I haven't read Shelley's "Triumph of Life." Maybe I'll stick it on my list of things to read this summer when I'm not too swamped with coursework to read anything not directly related to research for class.
'The Triumph Of Life' by Shelley I have always considered one of my favorite poems - what a shame you have never read it! If interested, you can find a copy here (http://www.poetryconnection.net/poets/Percy_Bysshe_Shelley/17891).
Happy reading! ;)

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Mono--Thanks for the link to the Shelley. It's a shorter poem than I thought it was for some reason. I'll have to read it when I get the chance. I just saw you'd posted a sonnet from the amoretti above too. Wonderful idea. Cheers.

[britomart]

Quick snapshot of Britomartis Byronicus -

Will respond to all once party head clears, started reading "Childe Harolde" and the rest followed. At least at 50 years old one is blessed that certain kinds of sexual excess are out of the question.

Favourite bit of FQ is now the last canto of book three where Britomart witnesses the masque. In academic study I became fascinated with the gate keeper like characters in FQ, and some critical stuff was gained from reading Ease.

[britomart]

Snapshot 2 -
Canterbury Cathedral encapsulates something special about England - but London is virtually a separate city state, they do things differently there.

R2 prayer spot was at Conway Castle in Wales, (extremely English despite the location). This appreciation dear to me because of Shakey's play.

Richard 2 is famous for being the King that introduced the handkerchief to England, whilst some of the fashions of the time were hilarious. R2 a notoriously bad King, but Shakey's portrayal of him heart piercing. Will write again once the chronologically challenged dime store Don Juan phase wears off. (I'm trying to pepper my writing with Americanisms from time to time)

[Petrarch's Love]

Britomart with a party head in a "chronologically challenged dime store Don Juan phase!" The last thing Spenser ever expected for the heroine of his book on chastity. :lol: Yes, the masque at the end of book three is pretty incredible stuff. My advisor refers to it as "compellingly disturbing." Spenser's poetry really shines when he's describing things in visual terms, like the masque.


Canterbury Cathedral encapsulates something special about England - but London is virtually a separate city state, they do things differently there.

I got that sense about both places. I loved Canterbury Cathedral. I went intending to spend an hour or so and stayed for the better part of the day.


R2 prayer spot was at Conway Castle in Wales, (extremely English despite the location). This appreciation dear to me because of Shakey's play.

Richard 2 is famous for being the King that introduced the handkerchief to England, whilst some of the fashions of the time were hilarious. R2 a notoriously bad King, but Shakey's portrayal of him heart piercing.

I didn't know RII introduced the handkerchief to England. Learn something every day. I agree that Shakey did a pretty smashing job with Richard II. I'll have to make my way to Conway Castle some day.


(I'm trying to pepper my writing with Americanisms from time to time)

:lol: If only "dime store" were still a reality and not just a colloquial expression. We still talk about dime stores, but we've really got dollar stores. Well old chap, I suppose I shall jolly well have to try peppering my writing with a few English expressions in the interests of international harmony and understanding. Cheerio for now. ;)

[britomart]

Dear Petrarch's Love,
I will now progress with the academic rigour of a gin sodden harlot: Indeed, if Mr Spenser could see down the centuries he might take a very dim view of my cavortings under the name Britomart. I take the name for ironic reasons to do with higher ideas of gender identity, available quips about armouring and the erotic sense that Spenser gave to some of his writing. Were me and Spenser to meet for a cup of tea we probably wouldn't get on - the destruction of the Bower of Bliss I see as the action of a spoilsport. I love illusion to the hilt, it looks like Spenser distrusted it.

A similar sense of narky reader response arises in me from the end of "Pilgrim's Progress". Bunyan's writing stirs great feeling in me, but I'd have been a lot happier if Christian had gained access to the Emerald City.

The full horror of my imaginings might be shown by attempted afternoon tea with Milton - if I ever got across the threshold he would surely have had me escorted off the premises as an intellectual stain on his presence.

More seriously, if time machines were available, I find it an interesting mental game to try and imagine what it would be like to actually meet the people behind the writing. Would Laurie Lee be as delightful as his writing or a grumpy misanthropist? How sensitive was Byron the man? Would George Orwell be an insufferable puritan to know?

I recall that Hardy addressed this idea somewhere in "Jude the Obscure" (?) (memories of novels have all become a blur) by having Jude meet a writer that he admired to find something far far different from what the man's text had led him to believe.

The material you are studying was glimpsed as if far off headlands in my M.A. study - my work was to stick more locally to FQ and decipher what I could, an endless yet very rewarding task.

See you tomorrow, I'm just about to think up a few tips for readers of more modern poetry who encounter Spenser for the first time. My key concept is that the Spenserian text is a playful thing.

[britomart]

Thinking up tips for others on reading Spenser is in itself proving difficult. We are in danger of me producing a piece that could easily be entitled "How to Read Like Me and Why You Should".

Within the next week or so I'll come up with rhetorical questions about FQ designed to prompt thought in readers new to it.

A useful prompt given to me once was to ask where Redcrosse's armour comes from - it isn't his.

It seemed initially odd to me that Book 1 ends in the Garden of Eden.

Little snippets of the poem might be usefully presented for pondering - to modernise the English of part of 1 / 1 / 2, we read: dead as living ever him adored. One might ask oneself who's described as dead and who's described as living here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diving off as is my Romantic want (I might be described critically as a Post Post Modern Old New Oldicist), a second dip into the opening of Byron's "Childe Harolde's Pilgrimage" has been done. As Spenser's work has now become obscure, it intrigues me that Byron's early nineteenth century commercial success drips with Spenserianisms at the outset (it is also written in Spenserian stanzas). That's interesting.

Spenser was Shelley's favourite poet, and that's interesting too.

So dear audience, as this computer is in someone else's house and we are on borrowed time, let us quit ye upstart neurons of ye yron box that burnes ye tinn and set saile through pleasaunt shyre to trayler parke of eternall yryning, whereyn lieth copy of FQ edit. A.C. Hamilton wych eie lufingely fondle.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Britomart,


Were me and Spenser to meet for a cup of tea we probably wouldn't get on - the destruction of the Bower of Bliss I see as the action of a spoilsport. I love illusion to the hilt, it looks like Spenser distrusted it.

Yes, he was a good Protestant, uncertain about illusion and imagery and profoundly distrustful of it. He was also a good poet and profoundly attracted to it. I think this simultaneous distrust and attraction creates some great and productive tensions in his work. I've always liked Carol Kaske's reading of FQ as a work that constantly presents two of everything, in bono et in malo (in good and in bad), and her suggestion that the Garden of Adonis is a response to the destruction of the Bower at the end of book two. I like the notion of the Garden of Adonis as the reconstruction of a pleasure ground in a positive light in answer to the earlier clearly sinful pleasure ground of Acrasia's Bower of Bliss. All the same, the end of book two is doubtless one of the more arresting and unsettling moments of FQ.


More seriously, if time machines were available, I find it an interesting mental game to try and imagine what it would be like to actually meet the people behind the writing. Would Laurie Lee be as delightful as his writing or a grumpy misanthropist? How sensitive was Byron the man? Would George Orwell be an insufferable puritan to know?

I think about that sometimes too. What would I say to Milton if he suddenly walked through the door? Didn't Ray Bradbury have a short story on the subject of meeting authors from the past?

[Petrarch's Love]

Figured I'd better start a new post for this.

Thinking up tips for others on reading Spenser is in itself proving difficult. We are in danger of me producing a piece that could easily be entitled "How to Read Like Me and Why You Should".

Within the next week or so I'll come up with rhetorical questions about FQ designed to prompt thought in readers new to it.

A useful prompt given to me once was to ask where Redcrosse's armour comes from - it isn't his.

It seemed initially odd to me that Book 1 ends in the Garden of Eden.

Little snippets of the poem might be usefully presented for pondering - to modernise the English of part of 1 / 1 / 2, we read: dead as living ever him adored. One might ask oneself who's described as dead and who's described as living here?

How to introduce students to Spenser is a question that's always running about somewhere in the back of my mind, since I'll be teaching his poetry within the next few years. I've found that what usually stops people right up front is the archaic language. It's hard enough getting students past Shakespeare's language (which your average undergrad terms "old english" while rolling his/her eyes in despair), but when it comes to Spenser it can be reallly an uphill battle since the language is more archaic than Shakespeare's and they have to deal with all that allegory too! The less archaic language is probably the biggest reason that people still read the romantics, while Spenser, who was such a great influence on them, has suffered greater obscurity.

The best solution I ever saw to this problem was in the class that introduced me to Spenser. The prof started the first day reading Old English (real Old English, not what undergrads think Shakespeare writes in) from Beowulf. We then went on to do the first half of the class in Chaucer's Middle English. By the time everyone had overcome Middle English and found out that Chaucer was really funny, Spenser's language didn't look so scary and they could move into actually enjoying what he was conveying with that language.

The other thing that seems to help is to give people a little preview of what goes on in Spenser on the most basic level in perfectly plain English. If you tell people they're going to read a fascinating religious allegory and set them down to read "Lo I the man whose muse whilome did maske," it's going to look pretty dull, but if you tell people that book one starts off with the killing of a monster and the detailed description of a wet dream, and ends with an action packed dragon fight, there's suddenly some interest. ;)

I've also found that reading aloud helps. It's easily done with Shakespeare of course, where the class can act it out, but I've noticed students really respond to a nice spirited reading of a passage from FQ. It helps people pick up on the drama and emotion, not to mention the sound of the poetry itself. Unfortunate that we can't do a recitation online. It's the easiest way to get people hooked. :D

Anyway, I'll look forward to seeing what kind of questions you come up with (I would find it of great practical interest as a teacher), and I'll see if I can come up with some myself. Maybe we can tempt some hapless vistor to this thread to begin wandering through the Spenserian wood.

[britomart]

To quote Petrach's Love:

"Yes, he was a good Protestant, uncertain about illusion and imagery and profoundly distrustful of it. He was also a good poet and profoundly attracted to it. I think this simultaneous distrust and attraction creates some great and productive tensions in his work."

I agree to the hilt with this.

It is very interesting that writing itself often seems to be propagandised against by the beautiful writing of FQ (1 / 1 / 20 features book and paper filled vomit, and otherwise the presence of books or writing is often associated with evil as in 1 / 1 / 29 ln. 4 and in many other places through to 3 / 12, for instance 3 / 12 / 31 ln. 3) (You'll have spotted this all ready, I'm writing here for the benefit of eavesdroppers).

The reader may feel prompted to sense they are being naughty in reading at all, though otherwise my estimation is that Spenser injects a sense of creepiness with this.

Ways of presenting FQ to beginners are difficult to come up with, perhaps the text's fate is sealed into obscurity.

Anyway, must dash.

Eclecticism:

Shelley's "Ode to The West Wind" has been recently read. I must dip over to the Shelley section.

My fascination with Rock n Roll has to be confessed to. Quote or misquote of the day from "Sea Cruise" - "I gotta get to rock and get my hat off the rack, I got the boogie woogie like a knife in the back . . . " - a startling simile.

To sum up with my present cure all critical stance, these things are interesting.

[britomart]

Dear Petrarch's Love,
The method you described of introducing under grads to Spenser looks sound. It is a shame that parallel texts of FQ are unavailable (?), but they are for Chaucer, and as you described, encountering Spenser's language through Chaucer's is useful.

One thing that irks me is that once behind the mask of the archaic language, Spenser is actually easier to read than Shakespeare, and people in general don't know this.

I have seen reading aloud have almost magical affects on students.

Finding willing sailors for Spenser's crew (Spensernauts?) is still a difficult task, so I'll map out a little section for eavesdroppers on why reading Spenser is a good idea. We have 250 eavesdroppers I notice, so fit audience may we find and perhaps tease out a few into eavesdroopers.

[Petrarch's Love]

Dear Petrarch's Love,
The method you described of introducing under grads to Spenser looks sound. It is a shame that parallel texts of FQ are unavailable (?), but they are for Chaucer, and as you described, encountering Spenser's language through Chaucer's is useful.

One thing that irks me is that once behind the mask of the archaic language, Spenser is actually easier to read than Shakespeare, and people in general don't know this.

I have seen reading aloud have almost magical affects on students.

Finding willing sailors for Spenser's crew (Spensernauts?) is still a difficult task, so I'll map out a little section for eavesdroppers on why reading Spenser is a good idea. We have 250 eavesdroppers I notice, so fit audience may we find and perhaps tease out a few into eavesdroopers.

Hi Britomart,

Glad you think my teaching plans sound feasible. I guess the only thing to do will be to test it on real undergrads at the soonest possible date (I probably won't get a chance to teach Spenser for a few years though, since most of the teaching positions for Grad. students are compositional writing courses with the occasional opportunity to teach Shakespeare).

As for the recruitment of Spensernauts, I had no idea we had 250 eavesdroppers. Hello out there you unknown 250. :wave: We'll certainly have to see if we can devise a way to lure them into the discussion. Anyone who's out there reading this, feel free to drop in and ask questions or comment or something.

Just now I'm dreadfully busy getting a presentation on The Tempest together for tomorrow. I've also just finished going over a paper I'm supposed to present Monday on Spenser and emblematics, so I've been spending a lot of time in book one recently looking at the significance of religious imagery.

Anyway, got to run for now. I'll post more whenever I get the chance.

P.S. Hope you're having fun in the Shelley section. I'll have to check it out if I have the time.

[Hyacinth Girl]

Greetings Britomart and PL-
Finally, I have found my people! I actually had intended to write my thesis on FQ, but was forced to opt out due to a lack of profs to chair it (they all went on sabbaticals - must have heard I was coming!) Since then no one has dared mention the Bower of Bliss to me, let alone Tasso's influence upon it. :lol: Am going to open up my copy and start reading again right away, plus dig out all my old notes from my summer at Bread Loaf over the weekend.
In response to parts of your thread - I do think that moving from Chaucer to Spenser is a great idea. I actually studied both at the same time, and Spenser was such a relief to read after dear old Geoff, at least from a language standpoint.
Britomart - Love the thought:"We are in danger of me producing a piece that could easily be entitled "How to Read Like Me and Why You Should". - sounds like a prospective chapter title for Nietzsche's Ecce Homo :brow:

[Petrarch's Love]

Hazah! A third knight has wandered into our Spenserian wood. Welcome Noble Hyacinth Girl. We're glad to have you along on the Spenserian quest. What a terrible shame that your faculty all went off on sabbatical and left you Spenserless. What did your thesis turn out to be on? Oh, and where were you doing your MA work (you don't have to answer, just curious)? Britomart seems to have been off for awhile (he has limited computer access I believe), but I'm sure he'll greet you himself when he appears again in the manner of a true Spenserian knight who disappears mysteriously only to pop up again at random intervals much to the delight of the reader.

Glad you approve of the Chaucer to Spenser pedagogical approach. It seems to me the only way to get people to stop thinking 16th century language is scary is to give them a taste of even scarier 14th century language. Maybe I'll be really cruel and recite Beowulf in O.E. to them (though I'm afraid that might leave me without any students at all). :lol: By the way you're more than welcome to discuss Tasso's influence on the Bower of Bliss to your heart's content. Singing parrots and swimming nymphs welcome here. :)

[kilted exile]

Ok, I took a look at the link to Spenser's work that PL posted earlier, and I think it is needless to say I understood little of it. Is there a companion site which helps with deciphering meaning and pronunciation?

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Kilted. Glad you tried a little Spenser, but sorry it was less than comprehensible to you. Spenser's language is basically contemporary with Shakespeare, but he used some intentionally archaic words and phrases (i.e. things that were archaic even for his own time) in an attempt to imitate the great medieval Middle English poets, Chaucer in particular. If you're at all interested in Middle English, this is a pretty good site on Chaucer's vocabulary and grammer (http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/pronunciation/). The vocabulary (click on the book on the upper left hand corner that says vocabulary in red) may help you with some of the words Spenser uses, and the other links will let you in on the grammer and pronunciation of Chaucer's language if you're curious (this is not, however, the same as Spenser's language, though it did inspire Spenser).

I poked around the web a bit, but couldn't find any useful guides to Spenser's language online. The pronunciation isn't really any different than modern English, in fact if anything, at least from what I've heard, a modern Scottish accent is probably a little closer to the original, so you should be in good shape there. If the spellings are throwing you off you might take this into account:

Replace u with v (giue = give)
Replace i with j (obiect = object)
Replace y with i (Englyshe = English)
Remove the final e (Englyshe = English)

My first piece of advice would be to not start with The Shepheardes Calender, which is highly archaized. His sonnet sequence, The Amoretti is very charming, and not as difficult language-wise as some of the other stuff (I don't think they're much more challenging than say, Shakespeare's sonnets in terms of language, and less complex in other ways), so you might want to start there, just to get used to Spenser's voice. If you want to tackle the Faerie Queene (which is really a great read once you get the hang of it), I would really recommend just grabbing a well annotated copy at the local library that will gloss the strange words for you. Actually, once you get the hang of certain key words and turns of phrase, the reading gets much easier. I also came across a site with a turn of the century summary (http://sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/sfq/index.htm) of the narrative of the Faerie Queene (sort of a Victorian style Cliffs Notes--complete with pictures). It might be helpful in terms of just keeping track of what's going on, making it easier for you to then read the original, but I would caution anyone to use it as an aide, not a substitute for the real thing, since you loose all of the poetry and much of the fun in an abbreviated plot summary like this (the site also hardly seems like a good scholarly source, since it refers to Spenser as writing in Middle English). Best of luck.

[Hyacinth Girl]

Good morning! I didn't have time to grab my Spenser this morning (I access this site mainly while at work), but I think I will browse through the Epithalamion online this morning and see what I see. So excited to be talking about fun stuff again - I think my brain has slowly atrophied since 2002! Please, be gentle. :lol:
[QUOTE=Petrarch's Love] What did your thesis turn out to be on? Oh, and where were you doing your MA work (you don't have to answer, just curious)?] Actually, I am mortified by my thesis. I basically did it to make the chair of it happy. My disclaimer: the chair of my thesis was unwilling to move beyond psychoanalytic criticism in the vein of Freud. So, my thesis was on the forest as a forum for sexual aggression in Shakespeare's comedy. *sigh* I really wanted to write on Spenser's inadvertent deconstruction of the epic, but oh well. :goof: I received my MA from the University of Montana, but I attended the Bread Loaf School of English in Middlebury, VT during the summer as well. I was planning on doing my PhD, but life and love intervened :nod: .

[Virgil]

Good Actually, I am mortified by my thesis. I basically did it to make the chair of it happy. My disclaimer: the chair of my thesis was unwilling to move beyond psychoanalytic criticism in the vein of Freud. So, my thesis was on the forest as a forum for sexual aggression in Shakespeare's comedy. *sigh*

Sigh is right. Do people still take this psychoanlytic crap seriously? I'm sorry for criticising, but my distaste for grad schools continuous to grow.

[Hyacinth Girl]

Sigh is right. Do people still take this psychoanlytic crap seriously? I'm sorry for criticising, but my distaste for grad schools continuous to grow.
Thank you, Virgil, I feel so much better now! :lol: Actually, I don't think many people take it seriously anymore, or they mix it with other approaches if they do - the quintessential "tool box" of Foucault.

[Petrarch's Love]

Actually, I am mortified by my thesis. I basically did it to make the chair of it happy. My disclaimer: the chair of my thesis was unwilling to move beyond psychoanalytic criticism in the vein of Freud. So, my thesis was on the forest as a forum for sexual aggression in Shakespeare's comedy. *sigh*

Ack! Not the dreaded pit of psychoanalytic criticism! You have my sympathy, and Virgil has a point:


Sigh is right. Do people still take this psychoanlytic crap seriously? I'm sorry for criticising, but my distaste for grad schools continuous to grow.

I think psychoanalytic stuff (especially the deeply Freudian) is dying out as the "in thing", but there are still people around who are devoted to it (luckily no one I'll probably end up working with in my department). Sorry that you have a growing distaste for grad. schools Virg. We're not all certifiably insane, just about 99% of us. ;) I know what you mean though. An overdose of certain strains of literary theory can definately leave a bad taste in the mouth. :lol:


I really wanted to write on Spenser's inadvertent deconstruction of the epic, but oh well.

Sounds interesting. Where were you going with that? Since Spenser is really writting Romance in the tradition of say, Ariosto, were you interested in looking at the relationship between epic and romance as genres as a part of the project?


I received my MA from the University of Montana, but I attended the Bread Loaf School of English in Middlebury, VT during the summer as well. I was planning on doing my PhD, but life and love intervened

Well, life and love are well worth it. University of Montana sounds like a good place. I've always thought Bread Loaf sounded like fun. It's a really interesting idea, doing grad. school in the summer.

[Hyacinth Girl]

Freudian psychanalysis, begone! There, we all agree. :brow:

were you interested in looking at the relationship between epic and romance as genres as a part of the project?
Actually, yes, that was a portion of it. I have to admit, most of it was not fleshed out in any detail. I began the project while at Bread Loaf, started preliminary research, then returned to UM to find our two Spenserians on sabbatical. I'll go back through my papers this weekend and see if I can give you a more lucid description - it's been several years now, and the brain has died. ;)

University of Montana sounds like a good place. I've always thought Bread Loaf sounded like fun.
UM was beautiful, although the lit faculty is much stronger in Modern/Post-Modern lit than anything else. The MFA program, however, is stupendous. Bread Loaf was the best experience of my life. I can't even begin to describe what it is like, because it changes from year to year, yet it is always a refuge from real life. It is an incredible way to spend the summer - in the middle of the mountains among old buildings and people who love nothing more than to sit around talking about Descartes, or Milton, or Stoppard. The professors are laid back, yet you learn an incredible amount of information in a brief period of time. Your only responsibility is to do your coursework - the rest of the time is spent how you will. There were poetry readings once a week, a student production of "The Master Builder," Renaissance choir (guess who was in that! :D ), the "repressed desires" dance, annual Frost cabin picnic, karaoke in the local dive 10 miles down the mountain, impromptu soccer games on the green . . . postcard material. There was an ugly side as well - think "Dangerous Liaisons" and term papers - but that paled in comparison to the rest.
Okay, done waxing poetic now. Will go look for my notes on FQ

[genoveva]

Well, I just read my first Spenser today, and let me tell ya- that's some thick stuff! Maybe it's the copy I have (Oxford Edition edited by Smith and Selincourt 1937 reprint) but, I sure had a hard time reading his stuff! I am fascinated by the Faerie Queen, and plan to read that! Here is one sonnet that I did find lovely:

Sonnet XXI

Was it the worke of nature or of Art,
which tempred so the feature of her face,
that pride and meeknesse mixt by equall part,
doe both appearet' adorne her beauties grace?
For with mild pleasance, which doth pride displace,
she to her loue doth lookers eyes allure:
and with sterne countenance back again doth chace
their looser lookes that stir up lustes impure.
With such strange termes her eyes she doth inure,
that with one looke she doth my life dismay:
and with another doth it streight recure,
her smile me drawes, her frowne me driues away.
Thus doth she traine and teach me with her lookes,
such art of eyes I neuer read in bookes.

[Petrarch's Love]

Genoveva--Welcome to the Spenserian fold. I have a particular soft spot for the sonnet you quote, and I used the first line as the title of my thesis on sonnet sequences a few years back. The Amoretti is one of my favorite collections of sonnets, and I love the fact that, unlike all those unrequited sonnet lovers, he ended up married to the woman he wrote these for. When you finish reading through the sonnets you should read the Epithalamion, which was meant to accompany the Amoretti. The Epithalamion celebrates his marriage to Elizabeth, the woman he wrote the sonnets for, with each stanza representing an hour of his marriage day. It's absolutely beautiful poetry when you get to know it.

As you say, Spenser's verse can indeed some "thick stuff," but it gets easier the more you read of it, and you're starting out well with the Amoretti. I'm not very familiar with the Oxford edition, but if you're going to try the Faerie Queene you'll need an edition with some pretty thorough annotations. If you don't want to stick with the Oxford there are some other good editions to look for either at the bookstore or the library. For the complete FQ, the Penguin edition, edited by Thomas P. Roche is both affordable and well annotated. The Longman edition, edited by A.C. Hamilton, is also very good, but more expensive. If, like most people, you're not really sure about reading every syllable of the FQ but you'd like to have read the juicy parts, the Norton Critical Edition of Edmund Spenser's Poetry is clearly annotated and contains all of book one and book three (usually acknowledged to be the best books), and the choicer segments of the other books. The Norton also contains all of the Amoretti , the Shepheardes Calender , and several other of the shorter works, as well as some fine critical essays to shed some light on the mysteries of Spenser's works (it's also, as I recall, quite affordable).

[Hyacinth Girl]

Hello Genoveva! Welcome to Spenserland!
Have you been reading all of the Amoretti, or just this selection? Like PL, I recommend the Epithalamion if you are reading the sonnet sequence.
Here is my personal favorite of the Amoretti sonnets:

SONNET. LIIII.

OF this worlds Theatre in which we stay,
My loue lyke the Spectator ydly sits
beholding me that all the pageants play,
disguysing diuersly my troubled wits.
Sometimes I ioy when glad occasion fits,
and mask in myrth lyke to a Comedy:
soone after when my ioy to sorrow flits,
I waile and make my woes a Tragedy.
Yet she beholding me with constant eye,
delights not in my merth no[r] rues my smart:
but when I laugh she mocks, and when I cry
she laughes, and hardens euermore her hart.
What then can moue her? if nor merth, nor mone,
she is no woman, but a sencelesse stone.

I like how it uses the common convention of the stage that we see so often in Shakespeare, also Raleigh, but posits the lover as an actor. Most women would not like the idea of a lover acting and using artifice, but Spenser dares to do it. He also conveys the frustration of the lover in the last couplet, while subtly challenging the woman as well - by calling her femininity and sentiousness into questions, he draws her into action.


The Longman edition, edited by A.C. Hamilton, is also very good, but more expensive.
I have this edition and I absolutely LOVE it. . . definitely worth the extra pennies if you can find them. :)

[stlukesguild]

Since there's at least one other Spenser fan running periodically in and out of the forests of this forum I thought I'd start a thread where anyone interested in things Spenserian can post. Comments, questions, encomium, or criticism of Spenser and his works is welcome here. Those who are wondering why I'm not posting in the "Spenser" thread of the individual author section are clearly unaware of the shocking fact that such a thread does not exist. I think there should be threats of challenge to mortal combat if such a situation persists!

Indeed! I have long been a fan of Spencer but have yet to read the Faerie Queene in total :blush: I took a Masters course on his work but unfortunately was forced into dropping out mid-way through due to the demands of my job. As a visual artist I was very much enthralled with Spencer's visual imagery. For all the glorious music of his Baroque language, he seems incredibly visual... almost cinematic. Petrarch'sLove, you mention coming to Spencer with a background in Italian Renaissance lit... especially the sonnet. Undoubtedly you are aware of Orlando Furioso. Did you ever explore the links between Ariosto's epic and that of Spencer? We were made well aware that Spencer had intentionally set out to surpass this very poem which was perhaps THE epic of the time. I know that John Harington's translation appears almost simulataneously with the FQ. We also explored Spencer's impact upon English lit and discussed him versus Chaucer. While Chaucer may indeed be the greater writer, he has no immediate heirs, while Spencer's achievement's seem to clearly pressage Shakespeare and the rest of the English baroque. This makes the fact that he is so ignored even more lamentable. Harold Bloom noted that with the creation of Finnegan's Wake, Joyce succeeded in creating the greatest unread masterpiece of English literature since the Faerie Queene. This is indeed sad... even from my limited perspective having read less than half of the work... as well as the Amoretti, Epithalimion, and Muiopotmos (forgive any misspelling... I'm too tired at the time to check with my copy of Spencer.) I am suddenly realizing that I must add FQ to my list of "must read" books which I am embarassed to admit I have yet to read in total. That puts it along side of Proust's In Search of Lost Time, which I am working on right now (I swear, its true! ;) ) and the Qu'ran.

[Petrarch's Love]

Indeed! I have long been a fan of Spencer but have yet to read the Faerie Queene in total :blush: I took a Masters course on his work but unfortunately was forced into dropping out mid-way through due to the demands of my job. As a visual artist I was very much enthralled with Spencer's visual imagery. For all the glorious music of his Baroque language, he seems incredibly visual... almost cinematic.

Welcome to the Spenserian wood St. Luke's Guild. :) What a shame you couldn't finish your Spenser course. Duty calls, I suppose. Yes, one of the things I love most about Spenser is the visual nature of his imagery. One of my particular areas of scholarly interest is the relationship between the verbal and the visual arts in the Renaissance period, and I've done some work on the visual aspects of Spenser's work, especially in terms of Emblematics and the inflluences of artistic theory and philosophy coming over from Itally. It's also been a great excuse to take a lot of art history courses, which I love.


Petrarch'sLove, you mention coming to Spencer with a background in Italian Renaissance lit... especially the sonnet. Undoubtedly you are aware of Orlando Furioso. Did you ever explore the links between Ariosto's epic and that of Spencer? We were made well aware that Spencer had intentionally set out to surpass this very poem which was perhaps THE epic of the time. I know that John Harington's translation appears almost simulataneously with the FQ.

I've read both works (FQ more than once), so I've had the chance to compare the two informally and chat about them with my professors and fellow students, but I haven't done any formal written work on the two. I may yet, depending on what I work out as a dissertation topic, and I'm hoping to look more deeply at them both as I prepare for my exams this coming year. The similarities are certainly striking, and there's no doubt that Spenser was out to outdo Ariosto. Tasso's Gerusalemme Liberata was another big influence from the Italians. Harrington's translation of OF did indeed come out on the heels of Spenser's Romance, published just one year after the first three books of FQ came out.


We also explored Spencer's impact upon English lit and discussed him versus Chaucer. While Chaucer may indeed be the greater writer, he has no immediate heirs, while Spencer's achievement's seem to clearly pressage Shakespeare and the rest of the English baroque.

Yes, it's odd having that big gap between Chaucer and the Elizabethans. I'm not too sure about this claim to Chaucer being necessarily the "greater writer" ( :p ), but it's certainly true that he didn't succeed in starting up a literary movement unless you count his influence on the Elizabethans well over a century later. One thing Spenser was doing with the intentionally archaic language of his poetry(archaic even for his own time) was trying to go back to the language of Chaucer and "improve" upon it in an attempt to establish an English literature that could rival the literatures of the Italians and the French and, as you say, he was an influence on subsequent writers. One pedantic little academic note, I think the term Baroque is applied a little earlier in the visual arts than it is in English literature, which I would guess is why you're applying the term here. The period of Spenser, Shakespeare, Sidney etc. isn't really referred to as the "Baroque" (though one could obviously use the word baroque adjectivally to describe some aspects of the style) The period is usually termed the "Elizabethan" (up until 1603), the "Renaissance," or the "Early Modern" period. Just thought you might like to know. :)


This makes the fact that he is so ignored even more lamentable.

Lamentable indeed. :(



I am suddenly realizing that I must add FQ to my list of "must read" books which I am embarassed to admit I have yet to read in total. That puts it along side of Proust's In Search of Lost Time, which I am working on right now (I swear, its true! ;) ) and the Qu'ran.

I wouldn't be too embarassed, since I know PhD students specializing in the Renaissance who still haven't read through all of FQ. It is well worth making through it all though. Best of luck with that and Temps Perdu (which I certainly haven't read through :lol: ). If you decide to work your way through FQ and you'd like to chat, ask questions or opinions etc. as you go, then you know which thread to come to. :D

[Petrarch's Love]

Hyacinth--I also like the Amoretti 54 you shared with us. Thanks for posting it. :) Other favorites of mine from the sequence are these two. In the second one the lady wittily replies to his conceit in the first of the pair (highly uncharacteristic of most sonnet sequences in which the lady is silent and admired from afar), and I love the sense of a dialogue happening between them.

SONNET. XXVIII.

THE laurell leafe, which you this day doe weare,
guies me great hope of your relenting mynd:
for since it is the badg which I doe beare,
ye bearing it doe seeme to me inclind:
The powre thereof, which ofte in me I find,
let it lykewise your gentle brest inspire
with sweet infusion, and put you in mind
of that proud mayd, whom now those leaues attyre.
Proud Daphne scorning Phoebus louely fyre,
on the Thessalian shore from him did flie:
for which the gods in theyr reuengefull yre
did her transforme into a laurell tree.
Then fly no more fayre loue from Phebus chace,
but in your brest his leafe and loue embrace.


SONNET. XXIX.

SEE! how the stubborne damzell doth depraue
my simple meaning with disdaynfull scorne:
and by the bay which I vnto her gaue,
accoumpts my selfe her captiue quite forlorne.
The bay (quoth she) is of the victours borne,
yielded them by the vanquisht as theyr meeds,
and they therewith doe poetes heads adorne,
to sing the glory of their famous deedes.
But sith she will the conquest challeng needs
let her accept me as her faithfull thrall,
that her great triumph which my skill exceeds,
I may in trump of fame blaze ouer all.
Then would I decke her head with glorious bayes,
and fill the world with her victorious prayse.

[Petrarch's Love]

Alas too many posts were made
I clicked "submit" too many times...

[Petrarch's Love]

I thought I'd copy Burma Shave
And fill the space up with a rhyme.

[stlukesguild]

Petrarch'sLove;

I don't neccessarily agree with the ranking of Chaucer above Spencer myself (although I would have to give Milton and Shakespeare the edge). To compare the two would be rather more than difficult... perhaps akin to a comparison of Giotto and Rubens. Like Giotto, Chaucer strikes me as less consciously "artful" and more muscular... especially when reading him in the original Middle English... but then again, that may just be my later-day response to a now very archaic language. I actually prefer Rubens myself... but seeing as I am currently reading a bit of Chaucer along side of Peter Ackroyd's brief bio, I may be a bit biased.

I do agree that the terms "Baroque" & "Renaissance" are especially slippery when crossing from one art form to another. In the visual arts the Renaissance is generally seen as dating from approximately 1300 (coinciding with Giotto's frescos in the church of St. Francis of Assisi [1295] and those in the Capella degli Scrovegni, Padua [c. 1305]) through 1527 and the French sack of Rome, after which time the visual arts show an increasingly artificial and anti-Renaissance direction which became known as "Mannerism." Of course this "end to the Renaissance" was not universal. Although the artists of Venice (Titian, Tintoretto, Veronese) do show certain Mannerist elements, their art remains essentialy more naturalistic and in line with Renaissance thinking until the late 1500s (1580s/90s), and there are artists to the north, such as Peter Breughel, who are also clearly within the Renaissance tradition well after the date of 1527. The "Baroque", on the other hand, is seen as a rejection of the artifice of Mannerism and a return to Renaissance naturalism, albeit with an even greater sense of "realism"/illusionism and drama. The birth of the Baroque in the visual arts is generally dated from around 1600 with the work of the Carracci brothers and Caravaggio. Baroque art continues until around 1700, well after the deaths of Vermeer, Rubens, Rembrandt, and Velazquez, the greatest practicioners of the era. With the 1730s, or there-about, visual art enters into the Rococo era.

Crossing over into other art forms we find that the greatest "Baroque" composer, J.S. Bach, does not become active until after the final years of the Baroque era (well after the deaths of the greatest Baroque artists), and his final deeply serious, spiritually moving and profound works are produced along side the frills and fireworks of the Rococo. Mozart and Haydn, the great "classicists" of music, are actually active in the late Rococo through early Neo-Classicism. On the other hand, Monteverdi, who is usually defined as a Renaissance composer is born well after 1527 and cannot have been active until nearly the birth of Baroque art. In literature, Boccaccio, Petrarch, and Chaucer all fall well within the period known as the Renaissance in visual art... but Chaucer, like Dante, always seems to straddle the line from medieval to Renaissance. Spencer and Shakespeare fall into the time of Mannerism and early Baroque (ignoring those pesky Venetians)... but I have often heard them termed "Renaissance" or "Elizabethan". And how do we define Cervantes?

I've always liked the term "Elizabethan" myself... but it is somewhat problematic in that the central Elizabethan writer, Shakespeare, continues to be active well after the death of Elizabeth and accenssion of James I. I think I'm partial to the term "Baroque" because I imagine much of the writing of Spencer (as well as Shakespeare and the King James Bible
as being closer in mood and style to Baroque art (with the lushness, the sensuality, the drama, and the flamboyance) than it is to the art of the Renaissance... or worse yet, to Mannerism with its self-conscious artfulness and lack of naturalism. If anything, I am far more apt to use a term like "Baroque" to describe something in formal terms (to my mind Moby Dick and even McCarthy's Blood Meridian make use of a language or style that I might define as "baroque"... but that's just me. ;) :brow:

[Petrarch's Love]

St. Luke's Guild,

Well, I wouldn't actually dream of trying to claim superiority for either Chaucer or Spenser. I think they're different enough that there isn't really a way of saying who's "better," though naturally as a Renaissance scholar I'll give Spenser the edge ;).

As for naming periods, it is, as you say, slippery. In terms of literature the Renaissance period is generally said to begin on the continent with Petrarch (1304-1374), just as it does about the same time in the arts with Giotto. The cultural changes of the Renaissance moved slowly geographically however, and England's a bit behind in terms of the revival of the classics and all the rest. The English Renaissance is later in terms of nearly every aspect of the culture and doesn't really begin until about the 16th century. Basically the culture of England in the 16th and early 17th centuries is more like Italy in the 14th and 15th centuries, with the visual arts lagging behind a bit more than the literature, due in part to the reformed church--it's not until Inigo Jones (1573-1649) in the Jacobean era, for example, that England starts seeing anything like the kind of architecture that Italy saw around the quattrocento with the likes of Brunelleschi and Bramante.

In terms of literature, More's Utopia (1516) marks the early English Renaissance, and soon after Wyatt (1504-1542) and Surrey (1517-1547) introduced the sonnet, and along with it the vogue for imitating Petrarch, into English. The 1590's is an important decade among English literary scholars, and considered a highpoint of the poetry, when everything started really taking off. In terms of literature, the English Renaissance is then usually marked as ending with Milton (1608-1674), with Spenser (1552-1599) and Shakespeare (1554-1616) falling squarely into what is sometimes termed the high English Renaissance (though some distinctions are made in the types of shifts that occur between the Elizabethan and Jacobean eras within this larger "Renaissance" period). Since you asked, Cervantes is usually considered a Renaissance author as well, though I'll agree that he does straddle more of a divide into a later period. Since all of this does get rather confusing, scholars have taken to referring to a very broad period as "Early Modern," which seems to cover everything from Petrarch and Giotto to Milton and Rubens very neatly. It's not a term that's caught on much outside academic circles yet though.

Laying aside the picky details as to what we call these periods, I find it interesting that you associate Spenser on a stylistic level with the baroque. I had always associated Rubens' style somehow with Milton's poetry, and I think of Shakespeare in something of a Caravaggio or Rembrandt light, but Spenser I generally envision in terms of earlier Renaissance art. At times those set battles on a plain (in which the combatants are described symbolically as animals), or certain of the processions he describes have almost a flat and symbolic Medieval feel, and I think the archaic language and, to some extent, the allegorical nature of FQ in general tends to hark back to an earlier style. At other times the images come out much more fully of course. I always think of Calidore's vision of the graces in book 6 as being much like Botticelli's Primavera for example, and the characters of book one's House of Holiness I always see as being somehow being rather like the figures of a Filippo Lippi or a Benozzo Gozoli for some reason, while I've always thought Bosch would do a bang up job depicting the Masque of Cupid in book three. But enough with the speculations of my own fancy. :lol: It's interesting the way we all envision things differently as we read.

[Bastet]

Cervantes's style is normally considered Renaissance in Spain, mostly because it's normally compared to that of Quevedo and Góngora, two of the writers of the Spanish "Siglo de Oro" which best represent the Baroque style.

[Petrarch's Love]

Thanks for confirming that, Bastet. I thought Cervantes was generally considered Renaissance, but I'm not as expert in Spanish literature as I am in others.

[Bastet]

Glad to help, Petrarch's Love! ;)

[stlukesguild]

Interesting that Cervantes would be seen as a "Renaissance" figure... although I can clearly see the difference between him and the poetry of Quevedo and Gongora. By the way... are there any good Gongora translations into English? I have only been able to come across a scarce few poems. Turning back to Cervantes... it is interesting that while he is seen as part of the Renaissance, in many ways he seems far more modern. His nearly simulatneous "invention" and dissection (deconstruction) of the novel reminds me far more of later writers such as Sterne, than of what I usually imagine the Renaissance as being.

[stlukesguild]

I have often imagined which great artists might be the best to illuminate the works of a great writer... or vis-versa. I agree with your equation of Rembrandt with Shakespeare. To my mind the both have the unequalled ability at inventing human characters that convey such a depth of feeling/emotion that they seem to live beyond the confines of the art work that gives them form. To this I would also need to add Rubens with his mastery of drama, narrative, sensuality and theater. Milton, on the other hand, I imagine (much to his dismay, no doubt) as best illuminated by the works of two great Catholics: Michelangelo and Velazquez. He conveys a definite hard muscularity which I feel would contradict Rubens far more sensuous joyfulness. Indeed... Milton's sensuality hewn in marble (as it were) might be even better illuminated by a far later artist such as Ingres! Spencer, on the other hand... Yes... there are elements that remind me of Botticelli... I think also of paolo Uccello's heraldic "Battle of San Romano"... but as you say... all mere speculation.

Now which writer is Mozart? :brow:

[Petrarch's Love]

Milton, on the other hand, I imagine (much to his dismay, no doubt) as best illuminated by the works of two great Catholics: Michelangelo and Velazquez.
Much to his dismay indeed :lol: , though I see what you mean.


Indeed... Milton's sensuality hewn in marble (as it were) might be even better illuminated by a far later artist such as Ingres!

Hmm. Ingres might be intesting illustrating Milton. I'm not sure how he'd be with the Satan scenes and the battle in heaven though. I think we'd need to get Michelangelo in for that. :)


Spencer, on the other hand... Yes... there are elements that remind me of Botticelli... I think also of paolo Uccello's heraldic "Battle of San Romano"... but as you say... all mere speculation.

I think you've hit it on the head with the Uccello. I've thought of the "Battle of San Romano" in relation to Spenser before too, but it kept escaping my mind when I was trying to think yesterday of an example for the sort of style I saw FQ in. If I did a film of FQ I think I'd want it to have something of the visual style of the "Battle of San Romano" panels.


Now which writer is Mozart?

That's a tough one. I always think of Mozart as beyond compare. I don't know that I can think of a writer off the top of my head, but I've always somehow associated Vermeer with Mozart. They both have a similar clarity and complex simplicity to their work and a purity of form mixed with a joy in life and a sense of humour and laughter. Now you've got me thinking what Bach would look like on canvas. :D

[Bastet]

Stlukesguild, I can't really help you with Gongora translations into English, I've only read him in Spanish. I will definitely let you know if I find something though :)

You're right about Cervantes too. There're certain elements that seem to evoke the literary and artistic trends of a period later than Renaissance (e.g. his irony), and that is only logical if you think about the time when he wrote. However, in comparison to the Spanish writers "typically" considered to reflect the Spanish Baroque, he's generally considered more of a Renaissance man.

[Hyacinth Girl]

Hyacinth--I also like the Amoretti 54 you shared with us. Thanks for posting it. :) Other favorites of mine from the sequence are these two. In the second one the lady wittily replies to his conceit in the first of the pair (highly uncharacteristic of most sonnet sequences in which the lady is silent and admired from afar), and I love the sense of a dialogue happening between them.

Thanks for the sonnets PL - sorry I am so long in responding. I was away on vacation. I also think the evident dialogue between the lovers is a novel inclusion. In my personal opinion, it gives the reader a sense of intimacy that other sequences don't have - we begin to see WHY the lady is beloved besides her physical features or qualities as viewed (or imagined) by the sonneteer. It makes one wonder what other women would have said to the poets that loved them! :lol:

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi there Hyacinth. Hope you had a good vacation. :) Welcome back to Spenserville. I agree that it would be great to find a long lost group of sonnets written by Laura in response to Petrarch or Stella right back at Astrophil. :lol:

[bluevictim]

Since Spenser is one of my favorite English poets, I just had to chime in. Unfortunately, I'm by no means a Spenserian, and I don't have anything insightful to add.

I agree that while the archaic language is difficult at first, it doesn't take long to get used to. In fact, I really enjoyed getting familiar with the peculiarities; it was kind of like getting to know a new friend with a unique way of speaking.

My favorite so far is the Shepherd's Calendar. I really enjoyed the variety and invention.

There was some discussion about introducing students to Spenser. Perhaps my own experience from a non-expert perspective can be helpful. I would never have enjoyed Spenser until I learned to appreciate the formal aspects of poetry. Whenever I studied poetry in any English or literature class, 'meaning' was emphasized so much that form was all but neglected (looking back in my notes, I can see that form was covered, but trivialized). I didn't learn to appreciate form until I audited a class on Prometheus Bound which spent a lot of time scanning lines. If my experience is typical, undergraduates coming from American (or maybe just Californian) high schools don't really have an appreciation of the beauty of poetic form. In my opinion, this is very important for the appreciation of Spenser.

[~*Dark Faerie*~]

Though I hate to jump in on conversation of Spenser enthusiasts, of which I know so little. I'd really love to get an introduction to The Faerie Queen, unfortunately I don't have the time to read it in it's full original English, though I'd really like to. I thought this is the best place to ask if anyone knows of the best modernized version available. I have done some searching and haven't found any that really works.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Dark Faerie:

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I'm afraid there really isn't a good modernized version of the Faerie Queene out there. In post #26 on page two fo this thread (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=223045&postcount=26) I made a stab at trying to give some resources for better understanding Spenser's language. There's also a link to a plot summary online in that post, though I warn you that the summary is not going to give you anything near the experience of Spenser's original. It might help to read something like that along with the original though, so that you know what's going on and don't have to worry as much about keeping track of the plot and dealing with the language of the poetry at the same time.

One piece of advice would be not to start out trying to read the whole Faerie Queene, which can look quite daunting in its entirety. I'd definitely start by aiming to read book one and then move on from there. There are two editions I would recommend for reading book one, both of which have very helpful same page notes, introductory essays, and other helpful resources. One is the Norton Critical Edition of Edmund Spenser's Poetry. It contains books one and three in their entirety, and highlights from the rest as well as some of Spenser's other poetry.

Another recent edition of the Faerie Queene has put each of the books out in seperate, easier to digest, paperback volumes. The publisher is Hackett, and the editor for the book one volume is Carol V. Kaske. This edition also has a brief glossary of terms that may be helpful to someone struggling with the archaisms. I'm not sure how readily available this edition is yet, though since I got an early copy as a college instructor. You'd have to poke around online.

If you do decide to try reading the Faerie Queene, feel free to come here with any questions or thoughts you may have (no matter how small or large), and I'll be more than happy to help. :)

[~*Dark Faerie*~]

Wow... thank you for your time Petrarch's Love, I really appreciate it! I actually came to the conclusion myself after a little research of there not being any worth while modernized version. So I did decide to read the original Early Modern English. I just chose to read Book I and depending on how that goes Book III, (at some other point I'd like to read them all, probably not until college though!)

I just started reading the version I already had at home but I'll definitely keep in mind the Norton Critical edition that you mentioned for the future (I really enjoyed their version of Utopia)
Thank you again for your help!

[Petrarch's Love]

No problem, Dark Faerie. Glad you're diving in to book one. You definitely have the right idea with doing books 1&3. Not even in college yet, and motivated to read the Faerie Queene? That's always good to hear. :) As I say, if you have any questions or comments as you read along, I'd be happy to discuss. Happy reading!

[~*Dark Faerie*~]

I'm about half way through the first book. The basic storyline and some of the references I definitely understand. I find Spenser's language very lovely, it's fun to read out loud, it just has such a nice sound to it! Your post on understanding Spenser's language I found helpful in clearing some things up. I was confused that The Faerie Queene felt harder to read than some of his contemporaries that I had read before and had no trouble reading. But now that makes much more sense.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Dark Faerie, lovely to hear back from you. I'm glad you're getting into the FQ and that you seem to be enjoying it. Also glad that my post on Spenser's language could help. I've always found it slightly ironic that the language is always what puts people off Spenser, since (as you seem to have discovered) the language is actually a large part of the pleasure in reading Spenser once you get into it. I completely agree with you about the sound of his poetry. It is fun to read out loud. :) Any favorite bits so far? Hope you continue to enjoy as you read on. Lot's of great stuff to come.

[Behemoth]

Though I hate to jump in on conversation of Spenser enthusiasts, of which I know so little. I'd really love to get an introduction to The Faerie Queen, unfortunately I don't have the time to read it in it's full original English, though I'd really like to. I thought this is the best place to ask if anyone knows of the best modernized version available. I have done some searching and haven't found any that really works.


Hi Dark Faerie,
I'm studying Spenser myself this year and I found the following books particularly helpful as introductions, that can be read with/without the text:
Freeman, Rosemary. The Faerie Queene: A Companion for Readers. London: Chatto and Windus, 1970.
Bayley, Peter. Ed. Casebook Series: The Faerie Queene. London: Macmillan, 1977.
Hope this is of some help for you. I must say that Spenser is difficult and intimidating to begin with, but [I]The Faerie Queene[I] is a wonderful poem and benefits much re-reading. I also agree that reading out loud often helps on the first run through.

[~*Dark Faerie*~]

Hi Dark Faerie, lovely to hear back from you. I'm glad you're getting into the FQ and that you seem to be enjoying it. Also glad that my post on Spenser's language could help. I've always found it slightly ironic that the language is always what puts people off Spenser, since (as you seem to have discovered) the language is actually a large part of the pleasure in reading Spenser once you get into it. I completely agree with you about the sound of his poetry. It is fun to read out loud. :) Any favorite bits so far? Hope you continue to enjoy as you read on. Lot's of great stuff to come.


I finished Book I, so know I'm starting in on Book III. I hope I'll enjoy it as much as Book I. Hmm favorite parts... I'm not sure I really have a favorite. I liked the end of Book I because it was not such a classic end (i.e. not "Ever After") instead there's still duty that lies ahead for the Redcrosse Knight but at the same time a future with Una too. Does that make any sense? The lion representing "pure nature" I found really interesting too. The contrast between the House of Pride and the House of Holiness I also liked.



Hi Dark Faerie,
I'm studying Spenser myself this year and I found the following books particularly helpful as introductions, that can be read with/without the text:
Freeman, Rosemary. The Faerie Queene: A Companion for Readers. London: Chatto and Windus, 1970.
Bayley, Peter. Ed. Casebook Series: The Faerie Queene. London: Macmillan, 1977.
Hope this is of some help for you. I must say that Spenser is difficult and intimidating to begin with, but [I]The Faerie Queene[I] is a wonderful poem and benefits much re-reading. I also agree that reading out loud often helps on the first run through.

Hmm I'll look into that, thanks! Spenser is probably one of the hardest things I've ever read. I'd really like to read it again in the future. Hopefully all the way through! Plus I'd really like to stumble across one of the minor characters (I think in Book 6) Briana, which is where my name comes from.