Satan, Who is he?

[Green Lady]

So, there's all these discussions about Jesus and whether He is God or the Son of God or just a prophet. I began to think about why we don't talk that much about Satan. What or who does everyone believe this being is and where he/it came from? I'd like some tangible quotes from whatever religious texts you use too, please. If you don't have any, that's fine. Just put what you believe.

[Shield&Sword]

Green Lady sorry if i am jumping in, i have already jumped in between other's posts without permission. If you want i can write about the Satan from islamic point of view pasting verses from Holy Quran.

Here is how all began, and how he took a promise to distract Adam's sons and how he is arrogant, and how he is first enemy for humans:
Surah 7 [11] It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. [12] (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."[13] (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." [14] He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up." [15] (Allah) said: "Be thou amongst those who have respite." [16] He said: "Because Thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy Straight Way: [17] "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)." [18] (Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, Hell will I fill with you all. [19] "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." [20] Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever." [21] And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. [22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" [23] They said: "Our Lord! we have wronged our own souls: if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." [24] (Allah) said: "Get ye down, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood for a time." [25] He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)." [26] O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition! [27] O ye Children of Adam! let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the Evil Ones friends (only) to those without Faith.

Allah forgived the sin of Adam, Allah know that Adam will eat so and Eve peace be upon them, all what happened in paradise was to show us how much Satan hate us and how arrogant he is. Allah created Humans and jinns to worship him, and he made this life as exam for us, the one who choose Allah's t steps will win, and the one who choose Satan will loose:
Sura 2 verse [37] Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Surah 15 [39] (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong, [40] "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy grace)." [41] (Allah) said: "This (Way of My sincere servants) is indeed a Way that leads straight to Me. [43] And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

Satan is not an angels (angels obey Allah and they dont work against him they are pure creatures.
Surah 18 verse 50 "...except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord..."

Every one born without sin, pure persons, but with passing of time the person or he follow steps of Duvil or he follow steps of Allah, and the one who repent during his life for following steps of Satan, Allah will accept his repent He is the mericiful, the one who die following his steps (not believing in Allah and satan mean following steps os satan also):
Surah 2 verse [208] O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the Evil One; for he is to you an avowed enemy.
Surah 2 verse [268] The Evil One threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. Allah promiseth you His forgiveness and bounties. And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.
Surah 5 90] O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

So all what happened to our father Adam and mother Eve peace be upon them was to show us who is our enemy, and to know his reality, and every one try his best and choose Allah to win. Allah t wasnt playing arround when he created Adam and Eve pbu them and made them live in paradise, and made a specific tree not allowed, and left Satan talk to them.

And alot of other verses, but i tried not to write so much and to get the whole idea so clearly

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Even dyslexics need a Santa. :D

[rufioag]

Not much is really known about the fallen Angels including Saten but What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations. Satan was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially "kick God off His throne" and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from Heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say that God cast Satan out of Heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17).

Christians believe that Satan was an Angel, as said above and I believe that Lucifer(aka Satan) and 1/3 of the Angels were cast out of Heaven.

[woeful painter]

He's my bro http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/froehlich/d015.gif

[jackyyyy]

I'll throw this out: Satan is Insanity

[water lily]

It's interesting you should say that, because before insanity was considered a disease, many used to consider it demon possession.

[jackyyyy]

Yes, mental illness was associated with the Devil. I guess that was because no one understood it, or, as in some cases, it was used as an excuse to burn up a heretic. My contention is though, why not. Instead of deploying this word 'Satan' solely to religion, what if its roots were indeed insanity.

[Bandini]

Indeed. What if all religion was a form of delusion?

[rufioag]

That would be pleasant fiction wouldnt it?

[Gozeta]

indeed that it would!

can we stay on the topic of who we beleive satan is???

I believe he's the fallen angel. The one who tempted Adam and Eve. The one who tried to temp Jesus to do ungodly things.
Satan, the one who started the rebellion against God from the very beginning.

[RJbibliophil]

I agree with Rufioag, Rufioag obviously having a Judeo-Christian view on this.

Lucifer was an archangel(?) in heaven, along with Michael and Gabriel. He became proud, he wanted to be God. Something happended in Heaven, so that Lucifer and other angels were thrown out of Heaven. Angels were in the beginning given the choice if they would follow God, or rebel against Him. There choices cannot be changed. The angels that left Heaven are known as demons, because they choose evil. Satan attacks humans because we are God's most precious creation. It hurts God when we follow Satan, and Satan wants to hurt God.

Satan has many names including Beelzebub and Lucifer, as well as the Devil, Prince of Darkness, the Evil One. Satan wants us to deny His existence. We are fighting Him in a great battle, one that has already been won by Jesus Christ. Did I miss anything that Rufioag didn't mention?

[Gozeta]

Wow! Your on it RJbibliophil! lol
Satan, our one and true enemy.

[Nightshade]

Even dyslexics need a Santa. :D
As a dyslexic XAm I say http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/o045.gif

[Bandini]

I believ Satan was a small, yellow tadpole called 'Peter'.

[jackyyyy]

I believ Satan was a small, yellow tadpole called 'Peter'.Peter again, well done!

[papayahed]

Is that where the expression "Oh for pete's sake" comes from?

[RJbibliophil]

Wow! Your on it RJbibliophil! lol
Satan, our one and true enemy.

I've breifly studied this in Confirmation this year. (I was confirmed Sunday) Just say the word Green Lady, and I will go searching for my resources/Scriptures. Thank you for your compliment Gozetta. BTW, you look so much like Virgil, or is it Virgil who looks like you?

[Green Lady]

These replies are pretty interesting. Notice how they all have the underlining of one story with only a slight change in certain areas that make them so different from each other? Well, most of the replies anyways. The Santa and Peter comments weren't really what I was looking for... I want to ask if anyone's beliefs have evidence of Satan before Adam or even the creation of the earth. I read someones entry that said that Satan fell before Adam was put on earth. My religion believes this and I believe someone mentioned a 1/3 of the angels which is something my religion believes too. I also believe that Lucifer was one of God's highest angels or children if you could look at it that way. His name means Shining One or Lightbearer, or also Son of the Morning which suggests that he was highly esteemed before he turned wicked. There is other religious text in my religion that go into more detail of his fall if anyone is interested.

[Bandini]

I heard it was 68%

[Green Lady]

If you give me a reference that says that, I'll open my mind to it.

[zero__faith]

hheeeesss mmmmeeeeeee mmmmwwwhhhaaaaaaaaaaa

[Shield&Sword]

Thats the difference between Islam and Christianity, In islam we believe that Demons are not angels, they were created before Adam pbuh and they were living on earth, and they have the coice to choose between God and good behaiving or bad behaiving. Satan was Good Demon and angles took him with them,they were going to fight the bad Demons on earth who where doing bad things, and Satan was fighting with them against bad Demons, when ALLAH ordered angels to bow down to Adam pbuh he refused ( he wasnt angle but was in close position to them, not like other Demons who were living on earth) and the rest of the story is mentioned in my first post. In islam we dont believe that angles behaived bad ( they are pure servants of Allah), and we dont believe Satan is and angel, and we dont believe that Satan wanted to take place of God (strange a little bit, because being God is not something given and taken by someone, God is God its fact, he created all things and he is the almighty, he is not God because he sit on thrown, and that Satan was gelous from God and wanted to take his thrown (dont think Satan is stupid to think such way, even the one who think such way must be without mind or minimom degree of wisdom: Perhaps we hear people who doesnt believe in God talk in such way, saying jokes, but the one who believe in God and even was close to him and know he exist cants think to throw him out, will be impossible to think in such way)) and that he will be the ruler of universe.

These are the main differences.

The common thing is that he try to distract Humans from the right way in order to make them enter hell with him because of his hate to them, and who follow him will be with him and it doesnt hurt God, God love us and showed us the right way and he love to humans following his way (for a wisdom he created us,we dont ask him about what he do and he ask us about what we do),the one who refuse God, God aso will refuse him, and it wont change anything for God, he will remain ALLAH, and nothing hurt him or increase or reduce anything from Him. Subhanahu oa ta'ala 'amma ioshrikoon, oa ta'ala ALLAH 'amma iasefoon 'olooan kabeera.

[rufioag]

well thats a little confusing to me. I thought Muhammed taught that Muslims too should believe what is written in the Gospels and in the Torah(old testament). If this is so, why does the Bible say Satan was an Angel and then the Koran says that they were something else? It would seem strange for someone to change such an insignificant event if you believe the doctrine is corrupt which I believe you can look into and see that it has not. Just a simple question as to that it relates to the question of the thread.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I believe that the name "Satan" actually comes from a tribal war-god of some people that the Jews conquered. The same goes for Baal and several other names for 'demons' and 'false gods'.

Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read this - but I will try and find some corroboration for it if I can.

[RJbibliophil]

Rufioag-you have just caught an important contradiction in the Koran. They say they agree with the teachings of the Bible, and yet, they teach things that contradict the Scriptures.

Sheild&Sword- will you please try to be a little more clear with your grammer and spelling?

Green Lady- you seem to be very interested in these issues over religion. That is good. May you find the truth. For, as it is written in the Bible-

Isaiah 14:12-15
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

Fall of the Morning Star
A name used of Satan-Lucifer, or morning star- comes from these verses. The word Lucifer refers to Venus, one of the brightest objects in the sky. Yet, when the sun rises, the light of even the brightest morning star is totally eclipsed.
In context, Isaiah was describing the cruelly oppressive king of Babylon, who swelled with pride, but would be brought to defeat. However, Isaiah is hinting at a force behind the human king: Satan himself. Isaiah's metaphor of the faded morning star aptly describes the eclipse of the haughty king of Babylon-and of Satan.

Psalm 8:4-5
What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings, and crowned him with glory and honor.

Hebrews 1:13-14
To which of the angels did God ever say, " Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for you feet"? Are not angels ministering spririts sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Hebrews chapter 1 tells about how the Son is superior to the angels. The quotation above is from Psalm 110:25-27. God said this to the Son. Please note that inheriting salvation means those who have accepted God's gift of Salvation, which they will receive at the end of this earth.

[Shield&Sword]

Muhammed pbuh said to believe what is written in Gospels and Torah???????!!!!!!!
Allah t ordered us, not Muhammed pbuh. And He ordered us to believe in the real Turah that Moses pbuh had not what we have today, same for vangeles of Jesus pbuh, not the vangele according Mathew or Jonh or Mark or Luke, but that of Jesus pbuh.
And we have nowadays the Holy Quran that it carry the massege that all prophets had before, and what it says we believe in it and if it contraddict with what Turah or new test of today says it doesnt matter, because we believe it doesnt contraddict witht the real Turah that Moses pbuh had and the True vangel that Jesus pbuh. I think that things now are more clear.

About satan, really i didnt read about it yet according christianity view. If it was changed then there must be something significant. God doesnt mention insignificant things in his books (we believe this thing about Holy Quran, and every letter was for purpose and every story has its meaning).
But respond this question please. Is Satan that stupid that he wanted to take place of god? can any creature that believe in God, and in Satan case he was wise and was close to God and knew god alot (knew His almighty, and that he is only a normal creature),feel gelous and think of taking the thrown of god and then he make his move? must be without brain no?

[Shield&Sword]

Learn english??!! perhaps my english language is not so good. And sometimes when i write things i leave the subject and then retun to continue and things get mixed. English is my 4th language. I talked before to others through posts much bigger than what i wrote here and all understood what i wrote, and they didnt find difficulty in understanding me (they contained mistakes), no one said go and learn english, i dont know why you only found difficulty? dont worry will try to improve it.
Any way:
Contraddiction in Holy Quran?????!!!!! Rufioag, where i said that muslims believe in nowadays bible. we talked before and told you in which Turah and vangel we believe. I said it so clear WE BELIEVE IN TURAH THAT MOSES PBUH HAD; AND VANGELES OF JESUS PBUH. Beside i said we believe that we believe Jesus pbuh had his book from God, so and Moses but not what we have nowadays, and we have the Holy Quran which was the same idea that was in real Turah of Musespbuh and real vangel of Jesus pbuh so we dont beleive in NIV NLT CEV KJV, or any other invented bible. For example we cant believe that there are 4 fathers of Jesus are a seed of adultery, and one of them is incest adultery ( we believe Jesus pbuh and all prophets are from pure fathers and mothers from a marraige begining from Adam pbuh untle the prophet). And cant believe God: sleep, cry, make wrestiling with Jacob pbuh, regret, get tired, sad, feel lonely. Or believe Lot pbuh made adultery with his oun doughters (incest), and David pbuh make adultery with wife of chef of his soldiers and then he send him to fight and die and get married with his wife. Or believe that God described genitale of persons ( read Ezekiel 23), or Jesus pbuh is son of God, or he is God, or he was crucified. The opposite of all this is written in Holy Quran ( only sexual language is not found), so not only Satan idea contraddict with what is written, but alot of other things.
So i think Rufioag didnt cought any thing (there is nothing to be cought), i explained to him/her the matter before, perhaps i didnt make things clear, sorry rufioag.

About Satan and his adventure, i asked how he with all his wisdom think of taking God's thrown?

[Logos]

Sheild&Sword- will you please do the following so that I can understand you: 1. learn English 2. learn how to spell 3. learn English grammer 4. proof read your posts
If you want anyone to believe you, you had better learn how to write English well.

Please discuss the topic, not fellow posters.

[Union Jack]

Supposedly Satan was an archangel named Lucifer, who, full of jealousy at Christ being favoured by God, rallied like-minded angels to his cause, and led a revolt against God and his loyalists.
Ultimately, Lucifer and his army were defeated and thrown into the Abyss of Hell.

There, bitter over his defat, Satan continues to sturggle against God by attempting to corrupt the world that God created, for he knows that the corruption of this creation would cause God great anguish.

Will Satan win ?!?! Only YOU can decide, the power is yours!!!
(Blatant Captain Planet Refferance.)

[Mililalil XXIV]

I'll throw this out: Satan is Insanity
You mean insatanty?

[Mililalil XXIV]

Many merely call satan a "fallen angel". "Keruv Hassokhekh", in the
original Hebrew of Ezekiel 28:16, means "Covering Cherub". This verse
calls some fallen spirit-being by this term - and satan is the one it
is interpretted to refer to. That being the case, he is a fallen cherub.

That is very interesting:
To begin with, that means he was once what was represented on the Ark
of the Covenant. he wanted to be worshipped, thus his servants
represented him with the form of the great sphinx, according to his own
self-aggrandizement, while the two remaining covering cherubs,
belonging to the two thirds of all the original celestial sons of GOD
that did not follow satan into sin, were represented on the Ark of the
Covenant - even though they never sought for any one's recognition but
GOD's alone.

And, even as these faithful Cherubim are represented as covering the
Presence of the ENTHRONED with their outstretched wings, it was they
that kept fallen man out of Eden, wherein satan effected apostasy, as
once before in Heaven. Without this information, the cause of the
design of the sphinx and of the Ark of the Covenant loses much, if not
all significance.

Because satan was one cherubic person, he invented a disguise for
himself as though he were in place of the TRINITY, yet made plain he
was one, selfish individual, and he favored images of cherubim in many
heathen cultures' royal adornment, as favoring his own kind.

[Green Lady]

I believe that the name "Satan" actually comes from a tribal war-god of some people that the Jews conquered. The same goes for Baal and several other names for 'demons' and 'false gods'.

Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read this - but I will try and find some corroboration for it if I can.

This may be true but I was refering to his name Lucifer which is supposed to be the first name given to him. Sorry if I didn't clarify that.


hheeeesss mmmmeeeeeee mmmmwwwhhhaaaaaaaaaaa

You know, I really believe that knowing you. :D

[rufioag]

Great post Mililalil...I actually didnt know that Satan was a cherub but this is probably because I do not look into satan so much, which is a good thing.

Sword and Shield, my statement about Satan aka Lucifer being not so important was this. I wasnt saying that it was unimportant but it is not pivotal or even crucial to the basis of Christianity. It does indeed hold significance becuase it is by Lucifer that man first was tempted and fell into sin. But when was the Torah changed? Im sure many Jewish authorities would debate very long on that issue. But this is meant for another thread and I apologize if I brought it off topic for a moment.

[water lily]

I want to ask if anyone's beliefs have evidence of Satan before Adam or even the creation of the earth. I read someones entry that said that Satan fell before Adam was put on earth. My religion believes this.

I once read a book that argued that Lucifer must have fallen between the time God finished creation and the fall of man. The logic that the book used was that God said of his creation, "It is good," without the exception tagged on "except for satan and his rebellious angels." Basically the book was saying God wouldn't have called it good if Satan had already rebelled and was wreaking havoc on Earth. So that's one view.

But you say your religion believes he had already fallen? What is your religion, Green Lady, if you don't mind my asking :nod: .

I also have a question: Did evil exist before Satan?

[rufioag]

Several things...

First) Lucifer's downfall could have existed before the creation of man very simply. Just because good created man and then says, good, doesnt mean that Lucifer had not already revolted. It merely states, in my opinion of the passage, that Lucifer had not tanted what God has created good. Just a little insight and u can respond on wether it is a valid point. You must remember, that God allows Lucifer the authority to reek havoc in the world but He can just as easily say, No more. Examples- when Jesus threw out the demons on several occasions.

Second) Evil is an attribute characterized by being something opposite of good. I do believe evil existed before Satan fell in theory but nothing had committed anything evil.

[ShoutGrace]

Second) Evil is an attribute characterized by being something opposite of good. I do believe evil existed before Satan fell in theory but nothing had committed anything evil.

I have observed a theory close to this. It has been argued that evil isn't in and of itself a reality. Just as cold is merely the privation of heat, so is evil the privation of good.

Darkness has no basis in physical reality. It is merely the deprivation of light. Yet we can tell that darkness is very real! (I can :D )

When anything starts against the natural order of the Universe, which is loving God with your entire being, evil can become reality.

I believe evil is a neccessary aspect of free will.

What do you think rufioag?

[water lily]

Interesting.

I agree that Lucifer could very well have revolted before Creation, I just thought I'd offer that idea since the question was brought up, and really all possibilities ought to be considered. :p

Regarding your second point, you have made me reconsider my quesiton to begin with. I don't think evil really exists at all. Let me explain: to begin with, there must have been only the posibility, the potential, for evil, a consciousness that there was an opposite to "good". But I guess I think that evil and good are not forces in themselves, but really just ways of classifying actions. The devil and demons are evil, not because it is some innate quality they posses, but because they commit evil acts. There is no general "evil" lurking out there, no dark shadow that engulfs souls like or anything like that, but that evil is created again and again every time someone makes an evil choice, commits an evil act. The devil dooesn't "epitomize evil", because evil doesn't exist apart from the agents of evil.

[water lily]

ShoutGrace,

(if you don't mind my responding to a question not addressed to me :nod:)I'd modify your statement a bit and say that "the potential for evil is a necessary aspect of free will"

[ShoutGrace]

ShoutGrace,

(if you don't mind my responding to a question not addressed to me :nod:)I'd modify your statement a bit and say that "the potential for evil is a necessary aspect of free will"

No problems :D . I would like to say that, but I hesitate to. Here's why:

God has evidently chosen to achieve his ends through the free decisions of genuine moral agents. If evil is only a potentiality, then I think that it is philosophically possible for God to create a world with unlimited free will, and yet no evil. Given that scenario, God may or may not be somewhat morally culpable for the presence and continual allowance of evil in our actualized world.


But I guess I think that evil and good are not forces in themselves, but really just ways of classifying actions.

Here you mean all actions, right? Like thinking evil thoughts, hating internally. Because evil exists inside peoples hearts.


The devil dooesn't "epitomize evil", because evil doesn't exist apart from the agents of evil.

Like the act of choosing to do something other than seek and love God. In this sense I think that Satan does epitomize our known sense of evil. He had all knowledge and appreciation of God and decided it wasn't what he wanted.

[Nightshade]

Regarding the similarities between islam and christian view of Satan youve forgotten the 2 biggest similar points Jealousy and pride. And if you look at the tale as not literal There in lies the obvious moral.
As for contradictions Youll find there is very little contradictory about what the koran says about the truth that is all the holy books. Its just not very complimentory or really somthing I would like to get into becasue it will end in tears. As religous arguments are on the whole pointless when either or both parties are so blinded by thier beliefs that they wont even listen to wha the other is saying.

Another intrestiong thing about satan redemtion.
In islam there is a story about Satan decideing he wanted redemtion. So he goes to MOses and asks him to ask GOd what he (satan) can do to redeem himself. and the answer is bow to Adams grave. Of course he doesnt becaus that would be worse than bowing to a grave of dust is worse than bowing to the living Adam. But he did think about redemtion. Some how Im not inclinded to think he is pure evil.
Actually I dont think Satan is that important either. Afterall he can not compel anyone only that person can decide wheter to do whatever.

[Shield&Sword]

Ok never mind dont answer my question.
About turah its not the thread, beside i gave you few examples in the thread: Is Jesus God.
I hope that you know now in which Turah we muslims are ordered to believe.

[rufioag]

Please do not be offended Shield and Sword, my point was merely expressing my own though process on the issue on something I do not understand from your viewpoint.

Nightshade, yes I do think we are all adamently firm in our faith, both holding the desire to show that our own beliefs are true in fact and theory. But why would satan need to bow to Adam's grave? He shoudl bow before the Lord not man and showing servantude towards man doesnt mean he shows servantude towards the Lord. Take for example in a corporation, you have the Owners of the Corporations and these owners have both a board of directors and employees. Now lets say that Satan was on the board of directors. It would be strange for them to put themselves at the service of their employees and not to the Owners of the company. Just in the same, itd be strange for Satan to bow before man instead of bowing before God.

Am I misunderstanding the story?

Also, I do not know if Satan was dumb enough that he actually believed he could rise up against God. I doubt it but he was blinded by his Jealousy and want of Power. I do not think the Bible clearly identifies his emotions and his inward thought on the whole issue but I do believe this. Take for instance a huge truck is driving towards you and you fully believe you can jump over it. But what happens? The Truck destroys you. There was no possibility that you could jump over the truck but something inside you made you believe becuase all your life you had been told, you cant do it. This is the same way I bleieve Satan believed. There was no way he could have overthrown God but he attempted it anyways becuase he was blinded.

[Nightshade]

rufioag I think I told it badly I was using direct translation because I couldnt think of the right word in english.
I suppose the word I was looking for was to show respect?
Its to do with why he fell . Muslims belive he fell for failing to obey god and 'bowing down" to adam --- and I supposebowing down means showing respect. It was because obiviously as Gods Faviourate andd a being of fire he thought himself better than Adam of Clay. So by "bowing" to the grave hed be obeying God and swallowing his pride and I suppose asserting his good will to Man.

[WhimsySA]

Sorry I have not got time to read the other posts!

Satan was the most beautiful angel in the heavens. One day he decided that he wanted to BE God not to be ruled by God, so he God chucked him out of heaven along with a bunch of other angels that were following his lead. God cast him into hell & he has lived there ever since trying to persuade people to follow himself instead of God the Father.

Many people think that God puts pain upon them as a punishment for what they have done, however I believe differently, I believe that it is actually Satan who puts pain on us & then makes us think that it is God that has done it. He wants to turn us against God our Father. Besides why would anyone want to hurt someone they MADE???

Satan/the devil/Lucifer, call him what you like he is still just a dirty old fallen angel that wants us to turn our backs on God so that we can have eternal DEATH & burn in hell (figuratively of course).

I don't believe that one will burn in hell, but I think one will feel so guilty that your heart will be so heavy you won't be able to handle it.

This is just my opinion so don't take it personally.

[AimusSage]

here's a thought:

*Satan is the kettle and the pot is calling him black.*

It's all nice and all to speak of things, but we all know the pot is the one who's doing all the speaking. The kettle barely gets a chance to put a word in.

Not that I care to be the devil's advocate, but it all seems a bit one sides to me.

[RJbibliophil]

Also, I do not know if Satan was dumb enough that he actually believed he could rise up against God. I doubt it but he was blinded by his Jealousy and want of Power. I do not think the Bible clearly identifies his emotions and his inward thought on the whole issue but I do believe this. Take for instance a huge truck is driving towards you and you fully believe you can jump over it. But what happens? The Truck destroys you. There was no possibility that you could jump over the truck but something inside you made you believe becuase all your life you had been told, you cant do it. This is the same way I bleieve Satan believed. There was no way he could have overthrown God but he attempted it anyways becuase he was blinded. Here are a few theories:
Satan is so blinded that he thinks he can win.
He knows he is defeated (by Christ) and wants as many people as possible to share in his punishment, which is, I think, literal.
He attacks us, because God loves us very much, and it hurts God when we follow Satan. This is his way to attack God.

Green Lady-I hope I answered your question on Lucifer.

Shield&Sword- all I meant was, it might help if you proof read your posts. sorry. BTW, what does pbuh stand for?

[RJbibliophil]

oh, BTW, there is no question about whether or not Satan attacks people, and wants them to follow him. He does want to be king, you know. Consider this passage, it is one of my favorites.

Ephesians 6:10-18
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

[Green Lady]

I once read a book that argued that Lucifer must have fallen between the time God finished creation and the fall of man. The logic that the book used was that God said of his creation, "It is good," without the exception tagged on "except for satan and his rebellious angels." Basically the book was saying God wouldn't have called it good if Satan had already rebelled and was wreaking havoc on Earth. So that's one view.

But you say your religion believes he had already fallen? What is your religion, Green Lady, if you don't mind my asking :nod: .

I also have a question: Did evil exist before Satan?


I'm mormon actually. And I do believe evil existed before Satan. Evil is simply an absence of goodness like darkness is an absence of light. Lucifer had lost the goodness in his life and replaced it with pride.

[Shield&Sword]

Pbuh mean Peace be upon him. We muslims say this phrase after mentioning a prophet name like Muhammed or Adam or Muses or Jesus, we say it for respect.

When Allah t ordered angeles and Satan to bow down to Adam pbuh it wasnt praying to him or showing any other type of worship to Adam pbuh, it was an order from Allah t to his creatures to do something, but Satan refused to bow down saying i am better than him you created me from fire and you created him from dust. They werent ordered to worship Adam pbuh but to bow down showing respect and acting as Allah wants. Allah said bow down didnt say worship him and they bowed down acting as Allah said (only the act of bowing down was done nothing else).

Nightshade dont remember the story that you said well, and its not in Hoy Quran can you please get the Hadeeth complete with the chain of narraiters and the book from where you got it.

No offence Rufioag, its ok, only ask and will be happy to respond, i enjoy discussing with you.

[Green Lady]

here's a thought:

*Satan is the kettle and the pot is calling him black.*

It's all nice and all to speak of things, but we all know the pot is the one who's doing all the speaking. The kettle barely gets a chance to put a word in.

Not that I care to be the devil's advocate, but it all seems a bit one sides to me.

Well, the devil is a hard one to get contact of. But his reputation with the majority of the world wouldn't make me want to trust anything he said if I did manage to have a one on one conversation with him.

[AimusSage]

Well, the devil is a hard one to get contact of. But his reputation with the majority of the world wouldn't make me want to trust anything he said if I did manage to have a one on one conversation with him.

See, that's exactly what I mean, it's all hear say!

[Green Lady]

What do you believe is the truth then, if I may ask? This is actually quite an interesting and probably dangerous thought.

[AimusSage]

What do you believe is the truth then, if I may ask? This is actually quite an interesting and probably dangerous thought.

I'm an atheist, however, I have been brought up as a christian, and am familiar with the bible etc. I do not believe there is a thruth in this. But for the sake of this discussion, let's assume I'm not an atheist.

My point would be that the portrayal of Satan has always been one sided. All references are made by people who worship Satan's enemy. Do you think it is in God's interest to have Satan portrayed in a positive light? Perhaps Satan was the voice of reason for God? Perhaps he was the opposite of the balance for God. When God casted him out of heaven, maybe the balance was lost, and shifted towards God to much, causing Him to loose sight. There are countles possibilities, but no way of knowing for sure, history afterall is written by the victor.

On a side-note there is nowadays an official Satanic Church. Maybe he is finally being heard.

Finally, I do not mean to say that God isn't 'good' and Satan isn't 'evil', I'm saying that there is reasonable doubt that things might not be as they are made out to be. For all I know, Satan might be good and God may be evil, but we are led to believe it is the opposite.

[Green Lady]

That's a very interesting argument. It's difficult to flip your perspective of such a prominent belief. I think the safest thing to do is not give them names. There is good and there is the not good. I don't really want to say evil anymore. So long as what you're doing is good, I think people will be safe.

[AimusSage]

But who defines what is good and what is not good? what to one is good, might not be good to another. Everyone has their own moral compass, and while in the western culture Christianity is what predominantly determines the north, in other cultures it is a different religion. All these religions might have a lot in common, but also many differences. This does not mean one religion is good and the other is not good, all it means is that they are different.

One of the things about the christian history is that the religion incorporates many things from Pagan belief systems etc. Why would they do that if their religion was the only true one? Wouldn't the 'barbarians' convert from their pagan ways on their own accord? Christmas is the best example. It's the most important Christian celebration, but has pagan roots. The christmas tree being the most prominent left over. This is all an effort to have the 'barbarians' accept christianity. This is how Christianity spreads; it adapts. That is why even today the way you practice your belief can vary greatly, but it is still Christianity. This is not the only way how religions can spread, but I think it is the reason why nowadays Christianity has the largest number of adherents.

But are all Christians good, (with the odd exception) because they are with so many? They are, and they're not. Viewed from within their beliefs, these people would be considered good, but there sense of good will clash with what is good for another religion, for example the Islam. I will not get further into this, since it is a subject that has been done to death already, but I'm sure you get the point.

[Pendragon]

Sheild&Sword- will you please do the following so that I can understand you: 1. learn English 2. learn how to spell 3. learn English grammer 4. proof read your posts
If you want anyone to believe you, you had better learn how to write English well.

RJ, my little Piglet, I am going to say this as a friend, for as I said before, I am not The Adversary. Let us never forget that Satan is The Adversary and Satan your enemy.

To many people on this forum, English is a second or even third language. Many also suffer from dyslexia, I do myself, which means I misspell words at times and I am a writer whose work is published on a somewhat regular basis on the web or in magazines. The above post is a little bit insulting, don't you think? Can you really see Christ saying that to someone? Read James 3:1-10.

And as I have said before think before you speak and then think again. God bless. :angel:

[Shield&Sword]

perhaps he/she was acting as in Luke 24:25.

[ShoutGrace]

perhaps he/she was acting as in Luke 24:25.

Glad to see you have an opinion on the matter!


And as I have said before think before you speak and then think again. God bless.

Well worded PenDragon.

Chin up now, RJ! God bless.

[Shield&Sword]

Well this matter consern me from the begining, such words were said to me, really a person raised with a language never say to another one who doesnt know the language well ( in my case its 4th language, i speak 3 languages because i was raised with these 3 languages, but english i learned it from school and from reading things from here and there) its little bit, dont know what made him/her angry that much.
But I am glad that you are glad.

[Veva]

Satan is nothing more than a notion. If we believe that there is God, there must be something evil as well. We must not forget that the God has only one name, while Satan has thousands and that's what makes him non-defining. You can talk to God but you can only listen to Satan.

[Green Lady]

God has more than one name.

[RJbibliophil]

Contraddiction in Holy Quran?????!!!!! Rufioag, where i said that muslims believe in nowadays bible. we talked before and told you in which Turah and vangel we believe. I said it so clear WE BELIEVE IN TURAH THAT MOSES PBUH HAD; AND VANGELES OF JESUS PBUH. Beside i said we believe that we believe Jesus pbuh had his book from God, so and Moses but not what we have nowadays, and we have the Holy Quran which was the same idea that was in real Turah of Musespbuh and real vangel of Jesus pbuh so we dont beleive in NIV NLT CEV KJV, or any other invented bible. For example we cant believe that there are 4 fathers of Jesus are a seed of adultery, and one of them is incest adultery ( we believe Jesus pbuh and all prophets are from pure fathers and mothers from a marraige begining from Adam pbuh untle the prophet). And cant believe God: sleep, cry, make wrestiling with Jacob pbuh, regret, get tired, sad, feel lonely. Or believe Lot pbuh made adultery with his oun doughters (incest), and David pbuh make adultery with wife of chef of his soldiers and then he send him to fight and die and get married with his wife. Or believe that God described genitale of persons ( read Ezekiel 23), or Jesus pbuh is son of God, or he is God, or he was crucified. The opposite of all this is written in Holy Quran ( only sexual language is not found), so not only Satan idea contraddict with what is written, but alot of other things.

I would like you to realize that the NIV, KJV, and the other names of Bibles are only names for different translations of the Bible. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, and the New Testament in Greek. Most people in the world do not understand Hebrew or Greek well enough to read the original Bible, therefore it has been translated. It has been translated many times because we are trying to translate it as best as possible, of course man is not perfect, therefore no translation will be perfect. By Turah(not an english word) you must mean Torah, the Pentuach, the Law as written mainly by Moses. You complain of the sinfulness of man as shown in the Old Testament. Man is sinful, even the great heroes of the Bible, David, who was a man after God's own heart was not perfect. The Bible shows that everyone is sinful(except Christ).


By "vangele"(which is not an english word) you must mean Gospel(which means in Greek "good news"). I do not know what you mean by Gospel of Jesus, I do not know of its' existence. All the books in the modern Bible were inspired and created by God, yet written down by men.

I do not understand what you mean by 4 fathers. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was true man so that he was under the law and death, and true God so that His blood had unlimited power to pay for the sins of all people. He laid away the use of some of His divine powers, He did not lay them away, only the use of them. As a man, He was weak and humanly.

As for Ezekiel 23, it seems that this chapter is really a metaphor. It is God describing the two halves of Israel. They have turned away from Him. See also chapter 16.

I may not be understanding you correctly, but you say that the Koran agrees with the teachings of Moses and Jesus, but teaches the opposite of the Bible. If the Bible is the most accurate historical book ever, as well as the most amazing, you are saying that the Koran is not historically accurate.

[RJbibliophil]

One of the things about the christian history is that the religion incorporates many things from Pagan belief systems etc. Why would they do that if their religion was the only true one? Wouldn't the 'barbarians' convert from their pagan ways on their own accord? Christmas is the best example. It's the most important Christian celebration, but has pagan roots. The christmas tree being the most prominent left over. This is all an effort to have the 'barbarians' accept christianity. This is how Christianity spreads; it adapts. That is why even today the way you practice your belief can vary greatly, but it is still Christianity. This is not the only way how religions can spread, but I think it is the reason why nowadays Christianity has the largest number of adherents.This just reminded me that Christmas is not celebrated on a pagan holiday. Sometime in the early Church, they decided to celebrate the Birth of Christ at about that time, probably to corespond with Easter. Several years later, the pagans made up a holiday to celebrate on that day rather than Christmas. I might also add here that, though Norway was converted to Christianity by Olav den Heilage, and has been predominantly Christian until recently, most people, at least those in the country, believe in the existence of the "Underjordiske", the trolls and their kin.

I know that English is not your first language Sword and Shield, and I posted in haste and frustration at my lack of understanding. I was not trying to be insulting and lay awake regretting my words. I do stumble in many ways. I only meant it would be nice if you could be a little more careful, for it seems you know the words and their meanings. Even I often mispell words, especially while typing, though I quickly correct my errors. I hope you can forgive me for my hastiness. Thank you again to Pen for reminding me again of the truth. You are such a light to me in these threads.

[Shield&Sword]

Dont know why always you say its bible translations matter.
Orthodox bible conatin 151 psalms.
Orthodox and Catholic conatin 7 books that Protestant doesnt have. They also have Daniel 13 and 14 while protestant bible doesnt have.
Books added and canceled. Still translations? which one is true? how to know?

There are verses added anc canceled:
KJ John 5:7 the only verses that contain trinity so clear was canceled from nowadays bibles, still translaition?
KJ John 3:16 the word begotten exist, now adays we dont find it, its important word but so bad to describe God with. Still translation?
NIV doesnt have Acts 8:37 it jump directly from 36 to 38 and they took 37 from the context and put it down in the page, next time will vanish. Still translation?

NIV: Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (words of God? forget its metaphore or not, does God say such words? what spiritual you find in these words, try to read it infront your little doughter or sister).
KJV the word genitals vanished we find the word flesh.
NLV Ezekiel 23:20 She lusted after lovers whose attentions were gross and bestial. ( here the words donkey and horses are vanished, flesh and genitals are vanished. From describing genitals to describing attentions. Is it hard to translate the word horse or donkey from greek? beside if its metaphore why they are trying to change words by passing of time? do they have permission from God to change his words or UPDATE, or ADD CANCEL?).

Not only these added cancel verses exist thier are alot other but only to give you an idea

About the historical facts you can go back to the thread that talk about the historical errors in bible and you can find what the PRIESTS say about thier own bible. And believe me alot of historical errors can be found in the bible and i gave example in the thread is Jesus God and no one responded, a big clear contraddiction between 2 stories in the bible.

The Holy Quran show the real image about prophets peace be upon them and thier stories.
First thing Solmon didnt pray to stones according Holy Quran it honor him as should.
David didnt make adultery with wife of his soldier and didnt send him to fight so he die and he tae his wife. (so dirty story about a prophet, and prophets dont do such thing). and then was born one of fathers of Jesus pbuh (we believe that all prophets came from a pure generation begining from Adam pbuh, no adultery was made in family tree of a prophet). And David didnt betrade or dance or made silly things, he was pure man as all prophets are.
Lot (prophet of Sodum) wasnt drunk (prophets according islam didnt drink any alcohol) and didnt make love with his own doughters (incest). ( so bad language about a prophet).
Jacob didnt fight with God and he win God by putting him on ground. (a man believing in God doesnt say such thing about the almighty unique one God).
Judah (the son of Jacob, He is not prophet but we believe that sons of prophets didnt do such thing) didnt sleep with wife of his son and then was born one of fathers of Jesus pbuh.
Abraham didnt say to his son a lie when he wanted to kill him according Turah. According Holy Quran he said to him so clearly about what God ordered him and the pure son responded with all faith do what you were ordered to do. No bad intention Abraham had, and his son was a pure prophet also.
Jesus didnt drink alcohol or was beaten, his mother didnt make adultery, she is choosen between all women.
If you mean these historical errors i say yes they contraddict with Turah, becuase Holy Quran showed the real image, the true story, the pure honest clear prophets, no drunk prophets or liers or incest makers in Holy Quran, and you choose the one that is better. As Allah said all prophets are equal, if we believe one is pure then all are pure, also the prophets that thier names werent mentioned in Holy Quran. They all were sent to humanity to show them the true way, and all were protected from Allah. Peace be upon them all.

[rufioag]

It angers me that I can not express arguements that I wish because I do not wish to offend anyone and that I cannot post them here becuase they will be deleted for being off topic though others are constantly off topic. I wish to be allowed to defend my faith against these rediculous arguements.

[Arethusa]

"I would like you to realize that the NIV, KJV, and the other names of Bibles are only names for different translations of the Bible."

Douay Rhiems might beg to differ as well. ;)

Just as God is the only absolute good in the universe, so is Satan (the angel Lucifer) the only absolute evil. No other being can ever aspire to such heights or depths. Even those who fought with Lucifer against God only guard the gates of Dis.

[berna]

ı completely agree with Shield and Sword.All religion are sent by God (christian,jewihs,islam..) and during the history there occured some corruptıons ın these religion except islam .bec islam ıs lastly sent by Allah and ıt is all completed and not changed by humankind.and whıle we read thıs .we can see all the prophets that come to earth from Abraham to Jesus ...Lut to Muhammed(peace be upon them) and theır life story..so no need to read many bıble to find truth but we can see all truth ın one holy book _Quran_ isnt it sounds so easy?

[rufioag]

Muslims often are very quick to tell others that God allowed the Bible to be corrupted. What they are implying is that the Qur’an today is the reliable word of God while the Bible is not. The Bible has many minor textual variants, but the evidence of any doctrinal changes in negligible. The Qur’an has more evidence of corruption in light of Ubai, abrogated verses, ‘Uthman, and other Qur’anic problems. However, the most drastic Qur’anic doctrinal variation, brought up by Muslims themselves, is "the daughters of Allah".

Who are these daughters of Allah? are they Goddesses?

The Sura (Sura 53) verses 19-20 say, "Have ye seen Lat, and ‘Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?"

The Koran was revealed to Muhammad and he transmitted it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his death. Varied compilations of fragments of the recital were created in the mid 650s. There were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused concern for Muslim scholars at the time. 'We thus face serious contradictions in our source material regarding two issues: who collected the Koran, and what it was collected from. In historical terms, the differences between the rival accounts are not trivial'. In the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions of the Koran available.
Is this truth?
Also, last time I checked, Prophets are not without sin are they? We are all born sinful in nature and fall short of the glory of God. Did Satan not place words in his mouth? Is that not sinful? If a friend tempts you into stealing, do you not sin as well for the act?
Mohammed was sinful
(Surah 47:19)

[Scheherazade]

Please note that this thread is dedicated to the discussion of concept of Satan, not to the superiority of various religious texts.

Any off topic posts are likely to be deleted/edited.

[Shield&Sword]

why my post was canceled, it was an answer to what a user posted above. You could at least leave it and then we return to the subject. These claims must be cleared.
Rufioag your post above was answered. Will post the answer of your post above in the thread you opened before which is: Question about islam. Every matter will be responded.

The answeris here :
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17225&page=2

[miss tenderness]

It angers me that I can not express arguements that I wish because I do not wish to offend anyone and that I cannot post them here becuase they will be deleted for being off topic though others are constantly off topic.

Rufio , there is no need to ba angry .just communicate ur ideas in a delicate way without offending others . Defending ur faith doesnt necessarily force u to offend others.



I wish to be allowed to defend my faith against these rediculous arguements.


well, i guess if u look at other p.o.v as rediculous ,then do not reply!

[miss tenderness]

lol half of my reply is in the Quote LOL

rufio will kill me now LOL

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Satan is just an equal and opposite reaction to God. Sound familiar to anyone?

[Shield&Sword]

I meant 4 fathers to say names mentioned in Mathew that describe tree of Jesus from Joseph untle Abraham. You will find names of 4 women, if you go back to bible you will find that these women made adultery with men mentioned near them, for example Tamar made adultery with Judah (incest), and you will find David made adultery with woman mentioned near his name. Hope you got idea.
I know Jesus pbuh was born from Marry pbuh without husbend but i dont know why the tree begin from Joseph passing to his fathers untle Abraham and Marry pbuh no mention to her. the chain mentioned in Luke also begin from Joseph but we see all names are different, only name of Joseph is mentioned, contraddiction? and what Joseph has to do with Jesus pbuh, and if you notice the phrase written in Luke which say between () "as was supposed", interesting phrase.
Thats what i meant by Fathers of Jesus, and there no mention of God. Is Joseph more important than God to be mentioned?

[Mililalil XXIV]

It angers me that I can not express arguements that I wish because I do not wish to offend anyone and that I cannot post them here becuase they will be deleted for being off topic though others are constantly off topic. I wish to be allowed to defend my faith against these rediculous arguements.
How I know what you mean. One thread was closed with the final comments (other than the moderator's notice of lock-up) being anti-Jewish comments I could easily have shown up for what they were.

[Mililalil XXIV]

ı completely agree with Shield and Sword.All religion are sent by God (christian,jewihs,islam..) and during the history there occured some corruptıons ın these religion except islam .bec islam ıs lastly sent by Allah and ıt is all completed and not changed by humankind.and whıle we read thıs .we can see all the prophets that come to earth from Abraham to Jesus ...Lut to Muhammed(peace be upon them) and theır life story..so no need to read many bıble to find truth but we can see all truth ın one holy book _Quran_ isnt it sounds so easy?
Islam is at complete odds with Judeo-Christian Religion on the matters of GOD and satan. Your views about islam add nothing to a literary discussion of defining satan. You have no basis for saying that Christianity has changed, nor, then, for differing with the Gospel, while simultaneously saying the quran praises it. Whatever Christian Teaching says of satan, you can either agree with it as being the truth, or you leave yourself with a self-contradiction, in which you say your own written authority backs up thr basis for Christian Teaching, and yet, by the islamic dogma, you despise all the Teaching of the Gospel the quran says to trust.

Now here is the literary crunch:
Muhammad said there was still a Torah and a Gospel in his time that was divinely inspired, and he said that if a muslim was in doubt about quranic teachings, the Peoples of these Books were to be consulted. If one looks at all of the manuscripts for the "New Testament", one finds that most of the mss. consulted for producing Bible editions today are from before Muhammad's time, so that they are the basis for what he admitted were reliable! That the quran sinks its own mission by making statements such as above about Books Muahammad had not read, while building up the case for the Torah and Gospel, whether it itself sinks or swims, is due to no fault of the Peoples of the Torah and the Gospel, whose existence didn't change the moment another religion presumed to eclipse their history.

Thus, all talk about who or what satan is without consulting Jewish and Christian Traditions, is like starting in the Americas to do an archaeological dig in Rome.

[Pendragon]

Thus, all talk about who or what satan is without consulting Jewish and Christian Traditions, is like starting in the Americas to do an archaeological dig in Rome.

Let me disagree here, Mil. Jesus once said to the Jews that by their traditions they were making The Word of God of no effect. The answer does not lie in the traditions of ANY religion, but in God's Word. Satan is the Adversary, the Father of Lies, Evil Incarnate, The Enemy of Our Souls, the Ruler of Hell, Lucifer, and a host of other names and things found in scripture. Tradition has nothing to do with it. Someone once said "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing people he doesn't exist." So, so true. God bless. :angel:

[Shield&Sword]

Mililalil XXIV where is your proof from Holy Quran and Sayings of prophet about this statment: Muhammad said there was still a Torah and a Gospel in his time that was divinely inspired.

Once my friend recieved a book from Jehovah people, they were using verses from Holy Quran to force thier statments and they were explaining verses in so bad way without knowing any thing and by cutting verses from Holy Quran.
They said for example about surah 16 verse 43 they said that we muslims must ask christians or jews. (mean ask the pope? or priests? or shnoda (priests of egyption church)? )
In Holy Quran explination of this verse scholars said that AHL ATHEKR are the musims scholars, and people from jews and christians who became muslims, because they know that a prophet will come. Even at that time Jews were saying always to Muslims we will kill you when our prophet will come, they were waiting for a prophet and they thought he will be Jews, but when he came arabic they were so jelous and didnt accept him, read surah 2 verse 146 "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
When a man at time of prophet Muhammed pbuh called Abd Allah bin salam (he was jews) became muslim he said to prophet Muhammed pbuh go to jews and ask them what they think about me, he went pbuh and asked them they said our leader and with big knowledge (trying to translate), then Abd Allah came and showed he became muslim, they said he is the most stupid one. Then Abd Allah said that he know Prophet pbuh more than he know his sons, others said how come? he said i dont know if my sons came from me or another person, but i am sure that Muhammed pbuh is prophet.
See Mil we ask these people, we dont ask people who add and cancel or say God drink, sleep or any other thing. Jews still waiting for a prophet untle these days.
There is another verse about muslims being in doubt. Its Surah 10 verse 94 "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."
When people explain this verse arriving to conclusion that non muslims do alway show that they dont know arabic and modes of speach and alot of other things. This verse doesnt mean that we go to pope in his church and ask him: oh pope i doubt me religioun islam, is Muhammed a prophet?
When this verse came prophet Muhammed pbuh said i dont doubt and i dont ask. This verse talk to disbelievers who doesnt know if Muhammed is a prophet and has doubt , because arabs admits that jews know more than them, so they can ask Jews who became muslims like Abd Allah bin Salam about prophet and if he is the the one who will come (Surah 7 verse 157).
In arabs talking there are sayings like when a father say to his son: if you are my son then treat me good. This way of talking doesnt mean that the father doubt that the person is his son, Its a condition (IF) in arabic that WONT HAPPEN, its arabic language not language of poeple who explain Holy Quran without knowing any thing. Mean that prophet Wont have doubt and wont ask, but its massege to non believers to ask jews who became muslims, not to ask protestant or catholic or any other sect.

Holy Quran doesnt sink it self, it sink all other book, showed the true image about prophets, and praised God as should, no other book praise Gos as Holy Quran, and showed every matter in life from waiking up morning untle sleeping, from coming to life untle death, no doubt left for people.

About manuscripts of bible. Mil, Apocrypha exist before Muhammed pbuh, do you believe in it? do you believe in orthodox bible which contain 151 psalms? Do you believe in KJV which contain the complete john1 5:7 or now adays books?
Old manuscripts are alot but there is no manuscript equal to other. In NIV the saying of Jesus in Luke 23:34 the famous word said by him in crucifiction, its written that there are scriptures dont contain this verse.
read acts 8:37 vanished from NIV.
there is nothing in Holy Quran that confirm sayings of bible today and some people try with effort to show that Holy Quran talk about nowadays bible and trinity (that even bible doesnt talk about), but NO RESULT.

Perhaps we went out of subject a little bit but cant leave such sayings about Holy Quran pass.

[Logos]

well, i guess if u look at other p.o.v as rediculous ,then do not reply!

Wise words :)

[RJbibliophil]

I meant 4 fathers to say names mentioned in Mathew that describe tree of Jesus from Joseph untle Abraham. You will find names of 4 women, if you go back to bible you will find that these women made adultery with men mentioned near them, for example Tamar made adultery with Judah (incest), and you will find David made adultery with woman mentioned near his name. Hope you got idea.
I know Jesus pbuh was born from Marry pbuh without husbend but i dont know why the tree begin from Joseph passing to his fathers untle Abraham and Marry pbuh no mention to her. the chain mentioned in Luke also begin from Joseph but we see all names are different, only name of Joseph is mentioned, contraddiction? and what Joseph has to do with Jesus pbuh, and if you notice the phrase written in Luke which say between () "as was supposed", interesting phrase.
Thats what i meant by Fathers of Jesus, and there no mention of God. Is Joseph more important than God to be mentioned?
I am presuming that you are referring to the geneologies of Jesus as found in the gospels. The geneology in Matthew is the geneology of Mary, however Joseph's name included as being her husband, probably because men were more important than women in that day. (Matthew 1:18)

The geneology in Luke is the geneology of Joseph. In Luke 3:23 it clearly states that Jesus was thought to be the son of Joseph. Of course Joseph wasn't his real father but an earthly father who raised Jesus.

Including the names of ungodly women shows that God uses all sort of people. Ungodly men are included because the geneology wouldn't be complete without them. According to the Word of God, "all have sinned"(Romans 3:23) and "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12)

[Bandini]

Helen Bond says:

"...we hear nothing at all of a virgin birth tradition, until late in the first century. Only the gospels of Matthew and Luke, which were probably written in the 80's or 90's of the first century, is there a mention of the virgin birth.

Another difficulty with the virgin birth idea is that the texts in Matthew and Luke are clearly overlaid with references to the Old Testament. They're evocative of the typical Old Testament annunciation narrative; the angel going down to one or two of the parents; the insurmountable problem, which usually in the Old Testament is the fact that the parents are elderly or barren, and then the angel says the problem is going to be surmounted and the birth ensues. It's very similar to the stories about the birth of Isaac or the birth of Samson or Samuel. Matthew and Luke are indebted to the Old Testament and they're drawing on these Old Testament ideas. The story of the birth of Jesus has to be even better so Mary can't be an elderly barren woman but instead she's a young girl who's also a virgin. They draw not so much on recollection from Mary herself but on Old Testament narratives."


It's 'genealogy' by the way.

[miss tenderness]

The Qur’an has more evidence of corruption in light of Ubai


abrogated verses, ‘Uthman, and other Qur’anic problems.




Who are these daughters of Allah? are they Goddesses?

The Sura (Sura 53) verses 19-20 say, "Have ye seen Lat, and ‘Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?"






What is this Ubai???


What is the Uthman prob?

Give me one abrogated verse,just one plz???


Rufio, excuse me for saying so, but I really laughed at this point. Why? Let ask you 1st ,did you read just these two Verses out of their context? Because the meaning here is not what you guessed. Now there is NO muslim who believes that Allah has a daughter,infact this is the exact opposite of what Muslims believe. We believe that Allah is One , Allah is not born and has no sons or daughters. This is the core of Islam. Now if Muslims believe so, how can they creat such a verse that you above claimed to be added by Muslims!!

This is a true verse said by Allah the Almighty . Allah, swt, in this verse refers to Allat,Uzaa and Manat(those idoles were worshiped by the people befor Islam)in a sarcastic way ,meaning how can you( sarcasly addressing those non Muslims who associated these name to Allah, as His daughters-again those idols worshippers are not Muslims ,but they are the people who still worship idols ) worship such things that can not benefit you or even respond to you !and the verse that comes after says that you have claimed those daughters to Allah ,swt. And then the verse that comes after says that those names (Latta, Uzza and Manatta) are mainly names that you (worshippers of idols) and your ancestors created, but Allah never approves of them, you just follow your whim, and Allah has given you the truth, that is the Quran.

As you can see above this verse can not be said by Muslims. You misunderstood the verse. Those words are Allah's words correcting the false conviction of people who said that idols are our Gods and they are Allah's daughters.
Now refio if you just go back to the whole surah and context you will understand the meaning well.

Allah, swt, addresses the worshippers of these idols (who associated these name to Allah, as His daughters-again those idols worshippers are not Muslims, but they are the people who still worship idols)

[Mililalil XXIV]

Mililalil XXIV where is your proof from Holy Quran and Sayings of prophet about this statment: Muhammad said there was still a Torah and a Gospel in his time that was divinely inspired.

Once my friend recieved a book from Jehovah people, they were using verses from Holy Quran to force thier statments and they were explaining verses in so bad way without knowing any thing and by cutting verses from Holy Quran.
They said for example about surah 16 verse 43 they said that we muslims must ask christians or jews. (mean ask the pope? or priests? or shnoda (priests of egyption church)? )
In Holy Quran explination of this verse scholars said that AHL ATHEKR are the musims scholars, and people from jews and christians who became muslims, because they know that a prophet will come. Even at that time Jews were saying always to Muslims we will kill you when our prophet will come, they were waiting for a prophet and they thought he will be Jews, but when he came arabic they were so jelous and didnt accept him, read surah 2 verse 146 "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
When a man at time of prophet Muhammed pbuh called Abd Allah bin salam (he was jews) became muslim he said to prophet Muhammed pbuh go to jews and ask them what they think about me, he went pbuh and asked them they said our leader and with big knowledge (trying to translate), then Abd Allah came and showed he became muslim, they said he is the most stupid one. Then Abd Allah said that he know Prophet pbuh more than he know his sons, others said how come? he said i dont know if my sons came from me or another person, but i am sure that Muhammed pbuh is prophet.
See Mil we ask these people, we dont ask people who add and cancel or say God drink, sleep or any other thing. Jews still waiting for a prophet untle these days.
There is another verse about muslims being in doubt. Its Surah 10 verse 94 "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."
When people explain this verse arriving to conclusion that non muslims do alway show that they dont know arabic and modes of speach and alot of other things. This verse doesnt mean that we go to pope in his church and ask him: oh pope i doubt me religioun islam, is Muhammed a prophet?
When this verse came prophet Muhammed pbuh said i dont doubt and i dont ask. This verse talk to disbelievers who doesnt know if Muhammed is a prophet and has doubt , because arabs admits that jews know more than them, so they can ask Jews who became muslims like Abd Allah bin Salam about prophet and if he is the the one who will come (Surah 7 verse 157).
In arabs talking there are sayings like when a father say to his son: if you are my son then treat me good. This way of talking doesnt mean that the father doubt that the person is his son, Its a condition (IF) in arabic that WONT HAPPEN, its arabic language not language of poeple who explain Holy Quran without knowing any thing. Mean that prophet Wont have doubt and wont ask, but its massege to non believers to ask jews who became muslims, not to ask protestant or catholic or any other sect.

Holy Quran doesnt sink it self, it sink all other book, showed the true image about prophets, and praised God as should, no other book praise Gos as Holy Quran, and showed every matter in life from waiking up morning untle sleeping, from coming to life untle death, no doubt left for people.

About manuscripts of bible. Mil, Apocrypha exist before Muhammed pbuh, do you believe in it? do you believe in orthodox bible which contain 151 psalms? Do you believe in KJV which contain the complete john1 5:7 or now adays books?
Old manuscripts are alot but there is no manuscript equal to other. In NIV the saying of Jesus in Luke 23:34 the famous word said by him in crucifiction, its written that there are scriptures dont contain this verse.
read acts 8:37 vanished from NIV.
there is nothing in Holy Quran that confirm sayings of bible today and some people try with effort to show that Holy Quran talk about nowadays bible and trinity (that even bible doesnt talk about), but NO RESULT.

Perhaps we went out of subject a little bit but cant leave such sayings about Holy Quran pass.
You are right that the quran contradicts the Teachings of the Books it says to trust. Muhammad seemed to feel confident enough about saying Books he never read said things the quran said. Many pseudo-charismatics today make these sorts of blunders, believing that random thoughts they think are prophecy, and presuming these "prophecies" are so reliable that if they challenge others to investigate their claims, everything will confirm them. Muhammad claimed he was mentioned in the Scriptures, and cursed Jews for truthfully denying this silly, uneducated idea. Fact.

In a modern book called "Conversations With Nostradamus", the author claimed that Nostradamus' spirit desribed his home in a certain manner. Everyone that has visited that heritage house has seen how fictitious the details of the author's psychic details are.

S.[5:46-49]
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing. So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not according to what God has sent down -- they are the ungodly. And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee.

This distinguishes the Torah and Gospel from the quran. If the quran were merely the same as them, why distinguish them as three existing scriptural entities? They are not said in the quran to no longer exist. What do you base your obscuring of the Torah and Gospel upon?

[Shield&Sword]

This verse no one can understand it talk about bibles that exist at time of Muhammed pbuh.
"So let the People of the Gospel judge" the verb judge in arabic is وَلْيَحْكُمْ. In arabic reading this verb we understand that it was talking about the reason for what Allah gave Jesus pbuh the Gospel. Thats mean that all the talk is about time of Jesus pbuh, mean that: we gave Jesus pbuh the gospel so the people (in that time, time of Jesus pbuh) judge according the book. It doesnt talk about time of prophet Muhammed pbuh, return to explination next time.
After Allah talked about time of Jesus pbuh he said in verse 48 to prophet Muhammed pbuh to judge with what Allah sent to him which is Holy Quran.
Holy Quran assure the books before it because all are from Allah. its a massage to christians and jews to believe in Holy Quran because it came from Allah who sent gospel and turah, and have the same idea that gospel of Jesus pbuh and turah of Moses pbuh had, didnt talk about gospel of Mathew or Luke or massesges of Paul and dream of John, these all were written after Jesus pbuh he even didnt see these books, and Holy Quran say so clear WE GAVE JESUS THE GOSPEL.
Beside gospel of Luke was accepted at years 300 nearlly, at Nicea council, and was refused at first but then confirmed.
The Gospel of Jesus changed some of turah teachings, so Allah talked about taking the Gospel to judge between people at that time.
Then after changing them, the Holy Quran came to affirm the real gospel and turah and to take the Holy Quran as judge, BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST ANY MORE. They were for a specific period. Turah was for specific period then came Gospel for a specific period, adn then came Holy Quran the last book for all humanity. Hope idea is clear

The story about Nostradamus is good, you can use it to talk with Orthodox who write 151 psalms, and to catholic who write apocrypha and Daniel 13, 14, and prtoestant who deny all that.

Yes Muhammed feel enough confidence about these books that he never read and knew they are changed by people, he for sure was inspired from Allah. Beside if you read Holy Quran you will find no bad talk about the true gospel and turah, and about prophets peace be upon them and specially about the almighty Allah. It gave every thing its proper image. No other book talk in such way.

[Mililalil XXIV]

This verse no one can understand it talk about bibles that exist at time of Muhammed pbuh.
"So let the People of the Gospel judge" the verb judge in arabic is وَلْيَحْكُمْ. In arabic reading this verb we understand that it was talking about the reason for what Allah gave Jesus pbuh the Gospel. Thats mean that all the talk is about time of Jesus pbuh, mean that: we gave Jesus pbuh the gospel so the people (in that time, time of Jesus pbuh) judge according the book. It doesnt talk about time of prophet Muhammed pbuh, return to explination next time.
After Allah talked about time of Jesus pbuh he said in verse 48 to prophet Muhammed pbuh to judge with what Allah sent to him which is Holy Quran.
Holy Quran assure the books before it because all are from Allah. its a massage to christians and jews to believe in Holy Quran because it came from Allah who sent gospel and turah, and have the same idea that gospel of Jesus pbuh and turah of Moses pbuh had, didnt talk about gospel of Mathew or Luke or massesges of Paul and dream of John, these all were written after Jesus pbuh he even didnt see these books, and Holy Quran say so clear WE GAVE JESUS THE GOSPEL.
Beside gospel of Luke was accepted at years 300 nearlly, at Nicea council, and was refused at first but then confirmed.
The Gospel of Jesus changed some of turah teachings, so Allah talked about taking the Gospel to judge between people at that time.
Then after changing them, the Holy Quran came to affirm the real gospel and turah and to take the Holy Quran as judge, BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST ANY MORE. They were for a specific period. Turah was for specific period then came Gospel for a specific period, adn then came Holy Quran the last book for all humanity. Hope idea is clear

The story about Nostradamus is good, you can use it to talk with Orthodox who write 151 psalms, and to catholic who write apocrypha and Daniel 13, 14, and prtoestant who deny all that.

Yes Muhammed feel enough confidence about these books that he never read and knew they are changed by people, he for sure was inspired from Allah. Beside if you read Holy Quran you will find no bad talk about the true gospel and turah, and about prophets peace be upon them and specially about the almighty Allah. It gave every thing its proper image. No other book talk in such way.
He said he was inspired while giving innacurate descriptions of things he was unfamiliar with. Was there no Scripture between the generation of JESUS and the writing of the quran? When was the falsely alleged corruption of all Scripture supposed to have occurred? If it could happen, allegedly, right after publication by JESUS Disciples, an altogether false oracle could be made and well kept. The argument you give for the quran is very weak: for if its preservation makes it true, and the present Bible is alleged to be a counterfeit for some anachronistically superimposed earlier quran you regard as alone being the Gospel, then why is the Bible so well preserved - much longer than the quran - and the alleged twin of the quran you say was the Gospel totally obliterated from existence?

Muhammad did not merely tell the Jews that he had been in once existant Scriptures, but presumed that they could not help but know him to be mentioned in the Scriptures they still possessed and knew well!

[Shield&Sword]

Ok you said explination is weak.

Which bible was at time of Muhammed: protestant or catholic or orthodox bible?
Then was bible according CEV or NIV or KJV.
Just give one of these. And tell why, and how they knew.
Beside what you say about the refutation of Luke gospel and the acceptence at 300's (300 years after Jesus pbuh birth) in nicea.

The verse was as i explained if its weak its your opinion, if you know arabic and read Holy Quran you wont say this thing. I pasted the word Judge in arabic because the first letter is ل and its not part of word judge in arabic it means SO ( لكي ) and it came to explain why Allah gave Jesus pbuh the bible, it was talking about that time, then after Allah finished talking about time of Jesus or lets say the time in which bible was not corrupted and was right to use, in verse 48 the speach came to time of Muhammed pbuh and Allah said to judge with Holy Quran. The verse is so clear and reading all verses will come with this result, when you cut and paste and refuse grammer it will have your explination.

Not important when corruption accured, because the question more important is: Has bible been corrupted.

I think we are changing the idea of this thread, Admins will be angry. Lets try to go back to the thread.

[Scheherazade]

I think we are changing the idea of this thread, Admins will be angry. Lets try to go back to the thread.Thank you, Shield&Sword. :)

[Basil]

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2171/satan5iy.jpg

[cuppajoe_9]

Good old Louvin Brothers.

"See? He's real! He's standing right there!"

[Azazello]

Lucifer – the Teacher in Philosophies, The Bearer of Light, the one who challenged Almighty’s decision to create ‘sentient sheep’ “ In creating sentience, Thou art creating beings with souls. By forcing their subjugation Thou art in violation of the greatest natural law of all – that of free will.”

Not my philosophy but a great book (The Devils’ Apocrypha)

S.

[Mililalil XXIV]

Lucifer – the Teacher in Philosophies, The Bearer of Light, the one who challenged Almighty’s decision to create ‘sentient sheep’ “ In creating sentience, Thou art creating beings with souls. By forcing their subjugation Thou art in violation of the greatest natural law of all – that of free will.”

Not my philosophy but a great book (The Devils’ Apocrypha)

S.
Free will is not freedom from a FIRST CAUSE. No one that has come into existence is free of a source of continued existence. We have to take one breath after another, but this does not jeopardize our freedom of volition. I don't see any sense in that above idea from the Devils’ Apocrypha.

[Azazello]

The premise of the story is that of the Almighty Trinity as it escaped from the collapsing reality and arrived at ours. Unfortunately what sustains them is the power of sentient faith. The Universe is subsequently created but no source of faith exists. So the argument arises should they have accepted their fate and passed from existence or does their need justify creating a human race specifically to hold the promise of sentience. This would require giving them intelligence so they are able to hold faith but denying the Knowledge of Free Will.

There was a great battle and Satan and His Daemons were defeated and cast down to within the confines of the Earth.

Then comes Adam and Eve and their blind faith nourished The Almighty until Satan led Eve to the Tree of Knowledge and showed her the knowledge within and let her partake in it. This is where the main question is asked.

‘…[W]hat purpose would our ignorance serve? Why would a god want his subjects to be ignorant, weak, useless? But then, such a population would be easily manipulated and controlled, would it not?’

Mililalil XXIV, this is a book of fiction but it does a great job to demonstrate there are 2 sides to every story. I am sure just like with the DaVinci Code there will be plenty of people who take it literally, but we do have tendency to do that don’t we? Just look at the Bible.

S.

[Gallantry]

Though you may not believe in the Bible there is a very large line between religious texts and fiction. Religious texts(for the most part) were written by people that believed in them with the intention of spreading a truth. Though they may not really be considered non-fiction either because of their subjectivity I would hesitate to call any text fiction. It seems a bit presumptuous.

[Azazello]

Gallantry, you are right I do not believe in Bible, but I did not refer to it as fiction, that was The Devil's Apocrypha. But I did say we tend to take things too seriously and interpret certain texts literally. Bible was the best example.

As to
[r]eligious texts(for the most part) [being] written by people that believed in them with the intention of spreading a truth., I don't necessarily agree. Wouldn't that require knowing the person's psyche at the time in order to judge their intentions? Also truth is subjective. One person's truth is another person's fiction. Just to use Devil's Apocrypha again, there is a cult now that follows this particular book as a religious text and deems it to be thruth.

S.

[earthboar]

Green Lady,

I enjoy reading the various legends and myths about Satan in these posts. I wondered for years how a God who is omniscient and perfect could have created an imperfect world. The old testament was confusing on that point, and further explanations founded in the so-called "traditional" teachings further obfuscated my understanding. Satan as Evil? The guy that made all the bad stuff happen? Wait a minute, didn't the good guy make the world, and so shouldn't the world be all good? What went wrong? I thought God was perfect? He must not have been perfect, after all. It was only in my forties that I emboldened myself enough to confront my brainwashing without fear, and a mythos emerged that was more satisfying to me than what I learned in Sunday School. And here it is:

There is a great God, the Supreme. He or it (I call him He because He stepped forth from himself, i.e., a sort of Yang principal) looked at himself. Thus came "understanding". "Understanding" ("Light, be it!") became thought, will, wisdom (and compassion), and substance. These are aspects of the Great God. But, anyway, wisdom, also called by her feminine name "Sophia" (a Greek word, obviously) thought to herself, "I am perfect, for am I not of perfection?" Which she was, she was good, not bad. But she didn't cooperate with her mate, Understanding, when she bore a child out of herself, by herself. The child was a hideous monstrosity, with the head of a lion and the body of a serpent. She was afraid of it. She called the child "Yaldabaoth", which means (from the Hebrew into the Greek) "Child, come here." Incidentally, notice how many words are derived from "Ya": Jehovih, Jah-Ras-Ta-Far-I, Yahweh, the Greek IAO, the Scottish name for Gods-Child, which is "Janet", etc., etc., etc., Likewise, note the name "Belial", which was what the Jewish Essenes at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) called Satan: Baal (from Babylon), became Bull, etc. Note the earthly symbolism. In this sense, Satan is just a way of attributing earthly attributes like lust, killing, eating, defecation, you name it, as opposed to intellectual and spiritual attributes. It is a metaphor, and the Kabbalah is the understanding of that metaphor (as above, so below) and the Old Testament (and the New!) are stories that unwittingly couch Kabbalah. (My point-of-view: the Bible is not history. To confuse history with allegory is what the madrases in Pakistan and Afghanistan do, and the product is Taliban. I understand the "Bible as the text book" is making a comeback here in the U.S., also--Disturbing)

Back to the story-- Sophia hid Yaldabaoth away in a mist, which was our present universe. Yaldabaoth was not evil, but he was ignorant and without the breath of spirit. He was something of a crafty artisan, and he made the world in which we live. Beautiful, isn't it? But also imperfect, wouldn't you say?

"Tyger, Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?" - W. Blake was saying things that were revealed in the Nag Hammadi find 100 years later.

He, Yaldabaoth, made humankind, and the animals. Sophia's brothers and sisters, and their Great Father, knew what she had done, and had a group hug, a family talk, making her feel better, and said, "we'll fix things for you little sis." So, the heavenly Archons (the aspects of YHVH) tricked Yaldabaoth into breathing the Holy Spirit into the human. This has to do with the Seth that you read about elsewhere. Seth is the spirit, perfected form of humanity. In us is the breath, or light, of Seth. Yaldabaoth figured out he had been tricked, and was set against humanity ever since. He resented the fact that humankind was heaven-bound, while he had to remain earth bound.

Many things come out of this Greek quasi-ecclectic fantasy, but to me, it makes a great deal of sense. To the Gnostics, the old testament god was an imposter. He tricked the Hebrews, somewhere along the line, into worshipping him. Note the many animal sacrifices in the old testament. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, one of the oldest scrolls, the Temple Scroll, goes on at length about "A pleasing aroma to YHVH", and they burned enough sheep, lambs, rams, and cows to bankrupt a small state. This was confusing to me, I couldn't imagine a good god being pleased with the stench of burning flesh, not to mention the suffering of beautiful, innocent creatures. It is one of those questions that doesn't make sense, until you reject it outright, and better understanding begins to settle in the knowledge vacuum! Now, it is also a brave step to reject certain orthodox teachings. Mind you, good people can follow the wrong symbols. It is easy to be tricked. I will save the story of Constantine and the Cross for another time. Suffice to say, a cross is a horrible device of torture. Imagine carrying a little gold Guillotine around on a chain? And Marie Antoinette looking down from on high and saying, "Good God, man! Take that bloody thing off your neck, it scares me!" The earliest Christians represented their faith through the symbol of a fish--life! Not death. The cross began to creep in a couple of hundred years later, a few miles north of Palestine...in Europe.

So, in short, our physical substance is the handiwork of a creative, but ignorant and imperfect god, Yaldabaoth. Satan, Samael, etc. He doesn't merit hate, because it is like hating a baby who throws a tantrum. He does bad things, but out of ignorance and jealousy. Note also, the "My god is a jealous God" of the old testament. Why would God be jealous? In fact, God is not jealous, but Yaldabaoth (a lesser god) certainly is. He's jealous of us. Our higher, spirit self is the emanation of a heavenly God. The idea of Jesus was that he came to earth to wake up humankind (notice I say human, not man), and remind us that our place is in heaven, with the heavenly father. Earth is nice, but don't make it a habit. To become entrenched in material satisfaction is to fall under the spell of Yaldabaoth, who wants to keep us here to be his playthings.

Find Marvin Meyer's book, "The Gnostic Gospels of Jesus", and read "The Secret Teachings of John"-- my story is a paraphrase of that.

[suzanne lofton]

I agree with Rufioag....Satan is also spoken of as an angle of light. He was the most beautiful of all Gods creatures. And wanted to be God....Pride was the reason he was kicked out of heaven. But he is real and he temps us today with things that look wonderful to us but in the end distroys us....He twists scripture (that's where all the false cults come from) they quote just enpugh scripture to make you think they are truth but then go another direction....satan quoted scripture in the garden to Eve...."did God really say do not eat of it or even touch the tree of knowledge of good & evil"? God never said anything about touching.......satan is here to accuse us and to get us to go our own way or his way instead of obeying God, which is the way of peace and happiness. God made us and He knows what is best for us.....Satan and death (which came into the world at the "fall", there was no death before the fall) have been defeated by Jesus at the cross. we now can have eternal life in Christ by receiving what He did for us at the cross, which was dying for our sin as He had none......What is sin?......going our own way instead of obeying God.....goes back to pride...the worse sin of all......

[PierreGringoire]

I don't know him but I kind of feel sorry for the thing. He is really depraved of the necessary components that God implants in everything. Where did this thing go wrong?-jk-satan's "equation" is probably infinite. That's a very weird concept:alien: or maybe it is just a shade under infinite:lol: so it can be solved. What a strange world:(

[Orionsbelt]

EarthBoar: "I enjoy reading the various legends and myths about Satan in these posts. I wondered for years how a God who is omniscient and perfect could have created an imperfect world."

As I read the other posts I was wondering if the Kabbala or Gnostic thought would come up. Excellant.:thumbs_up

And I have yet another variation. :blush: I had heard a story where Satan, Lucifer, (fill in your own symbol) was a sort of prosecuting attorney. So you presented yourself to God after your journey. Lucifer would then assert a long list of transgression against your behavior. You were then entitled to defend yourself before God passed Judgment. In this story there is no fall from grace but you can see where Lucifer might not have been highly regarded.


Any thought from Zoroastarian notions ? :brow: