Help. CRossetti

[Mint]

Hi. I need a little discussion on Christina Rossetti's poem, 'In an artist's studio'. Can anyone help? I need opinions on:

subject matter
theme
tone
structure
other techniques (imagery, etc)

I also need information/comments on how she uses the sonnet form in that poem.

I have pasted the poem below:

One face looks out from all his canvasses,
One selfsame figure sits or walks or leans;
We found her hidden just behind those screens,
That mirror gave back all her loveliness.
A queenin opal or in ruby dress,
A nameless girl in freshest summer greens,
A saint, an angel;--every canvass means
The same one meaning, neither more nor less.
He feeds upon her face by day and night,
And she with true kind eyes looks back on him
Fair as the moon and joyfull as the light;
Not wan with waiting, not with sorrow dim;
Not as she is, but was when hope shone bright;
Not as she is, but as she fills his dream.

From my own understanding and a little research, it seems that it could be an allusion to her Pre-Raphaelite artist brother Dante's model, who later became his wife. However, I do not feel that there is enough evidence for this claim. So I want a reading of the poem - as is - without this assumption, as well as with. Hope this makes sense. It would also perhaps help if maybe the context of the poem was considered. I believe she is a poet of the Victorian era...so is she making some sort of comment or hint at male perspective on women? If so, how?

Techniques used...? How is the sonnet used...?

I am very grateful for ANY help or comments, even if they are your initial impressions of a first reading of the poem. I will then have fresh perspectives to consider.

Thanks. :)
Regards

[amanda_isabel]

hi...
i dn't know anything about christina rosetti. but-and i hope this makes sense-i think he has an obsession with the girl in his paintings, and he used her as an inspiration to paint; she was his muse. i cant really say much more, but i hope this helps.

[Mint]

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it. I find it interesting that obsession comes through strongly in the poem so that it seems to be one of the key aspects immediately picked up on. So your reading is helpful. Thanks. (Also the bit about the muse).

I really need DISCUSSION on this Rossetti poem, so I am hoping more people will add their views and comments :) as this is a poem that I have found a little ambiguous. I enjoy the poetry of Keats, however, I can’t seem to get a feel for Rossetti in general.

I did not want to give away my own views on the poem in my first post, as otherwise, this may influence, to an extent, how board members might interpret it, and I did want fresh perspectives, as well as informed views. As this is a forum for people interested in poetry and who perhaps, write their own, it would be interesting to see how such poet enthusiasts and poets see the poem and what they feel ‘works’/’doesn’t work’ in the poem, in terms of techniques as well as subject matter. Hence, interesting commentary … more fuel for discussion created.


Anyway, ‘In an Artist’s Studio’ seems to me to have perhaps three possibilities:

1 The poem may be a questioning of the ideals of the society of that time. The male view of females: the ideal woman. Thus, the depiction of the artist’s shaping according to his own tastes. The fantasy woman.


2 This poem may be a reference to Christina's artist brother, Dante Rossetti, and his studio. He painted portraits of Elizabeth Siddal, with whom he also had a relationship and whom he later married. It is perhaps critical of this, with the allusion to obsession.


3 The poem may be making a comment about art and truth. Art being artificial, and thus not really, truly, capturing reality. So what you get is the artist’s version of reality as he/she thinks it should be.

To extend this further, it may then be that the poem reflects how the Pre-Raphaelite art represents women…but I am not sure of this at all as surely the Pre-Raphaelites rejected the Romantics and ‘the frivolous art of the day’ and they wanted to bring it back to ‘truth to nature’, which means ‘realism’ and painting everything from direct observation. Thus, I am assuming, this is clearly against an idealised view of nature…of artist’s own ideals of beauty and morality rather than reality of the subject.

(I believe they got their inspiration from early Renaissance – but what was art like then…was it not an idealised view of nature…? Confusing).

Anyway, if the poem is a reflection of Pre-Raphaelite art, then in that case, I can only deduce that Rossetti is subtly critical of the Pre-Raphaelite brotherhood. It may be hinting that Pre-Raphaelite art has objectives of realism and truth to nature, but that, in reality, it still has nuances of artists projecting their own ideals. (In what way though? Perhaps in their use of mythology and Keats’ poems as subject matter. This would draw upon the artist’s imagination rather than be, strictly speaking, a representation of truth to nature). But then again, where is the evidence that it is her brother’s Pre-Raphaelite art group that is being subtly criticised?

This question then leads me to consider that if Rossetti was a part of this Pre-Raphaelite brotherhood, (although not openly, as perhaps it was not modest for women; the brotherhood produced a publication ‘The Germ’, which I think (not sure) published her poetry under the name of Ellen Alleyn or something… and I think Rossetti was also friends with members of the group as well as being the sister of the founder), then perhaps, it is simply a criticism of Romanticism and the art of the time, against which the group was created and the poem, is therefore, a support to the views of the Brotherhood of Pre-Raphaelite art and a critique of the art of the time – of idealism.

Well, one aspect is common in all these three considerations; it is that the poem is critical and censures.

What is left is, of course, the actual content of the poem and a close look at the words and other techniques used from which the above considerations may be derived.

Please feel free to comment as you wish on anything...I will appreciate it.

[Mint]

Okay. I'm going to try to give my own views line by line. I would be very grateful if anyone could add their comments, suggestions, additions, disagreements, enhancements to these. :)

Here goes: I have tried to give what I think is the literal consideration and then what analysis I can make from it. However, I still have to link all this to my three possible takes on the poem given in the previous post. But I just wanted to look at it line by line itself, so that I might then find interesting aspects.



One face looks out from all his canvasses,

the same face is painted on all the portraits


One selfsame figure sits or walks or leans;

the same person painted in different guises/postures

There is the repetition of 'One' at the start of each of the first two lines. This use of word is effective because it is startling and stark at the start of the sonnet - we are immediately faced with it One – single, solitary, lone, individual – and thus effective because it is specific and definite as it implies a complete and demanding focus on the singular and thus leaves out everything else.

The way it is written is as if we are also faced or confronted with this face, because the tense is (‘looks’) present continuous (I think) and immediate. The words ‘one’ and ‘all’ are incongruous – there are so many canvasses and yet only one face in all of them - no variation despite the number of the canvasses. This incongruity draws our attention because it is unusual. This is also there in the mention of the different postures in the second line and yet, again, there is only the same person in all.

The second line adds ‘selfsame’ to ‘one’ and with no use of comma – this creates reinforcement of the initial impact of the singular ‘one’ and with the addition, the feeling/sense is of a focus that is unrelenting, constant and therefore, importantly, equals to/alludes to (or borders on) obsession.

[Mint]

Continued...

We found her hidden just behind those screens,

Can anyone tell me what they think is the literal and then add to it...?

‘Her’ – female subject – gender revealed but what is the ‘hidden just behind the screens bit about?’ (Not sure about that…)

When considering this revelation of gender after the sense of obsession emanating from the first two lines, it adds interesting considerations of obsession : obsession on some aspect of the female gender – the question now is, what is the portrayal of this female? And thus what aspect of the female gender is the obsession concerned with?



That mirror gave back all her loveliness.

‘Gave back’ interesting words/past tense of verb. Implies she is not lovely now. That her loveliness is thus given back by the mirror . . but . . . what is the mirror a reference to? (Not sure…) The portrait as a mirror image of her? And thus, the portrait as a means of re-presenting (not representing – but re-presenting) her former beauty, i.e. this may then imply the painter’s attempt to hold on to the ideal beauty and in this attempt at preservation of beauty on canvas, is seen, an implication of absorption and obsession with the ideal. And in turn a negation and denial of alternatives (for want of a better word). No acknowledgement is made in the paintings to alternatives to this idealised image of aesthetic beauty. And in this persistence, indulgence, is the storage of the ideal image through painting upon painting and this breeds and feeds, fosters more and more idealism and fantasy.
This also begins to answer the question we ask in the previous line. What is the portrayal of this female? And thus what aspect of the female gender is the obsession concerned with? Answer: idealised beauty.


Well, that's my take on it. I hope nobody minds me thinking 'out loud' here like this but I am finding this message board medium really good in trying to 'speak' about the poem, err... hope this makes sense :blush:

[Mint]

A queen in opal or in ruby dress,

(Beauty of?) the female subject lyricized in the metaphors. (Lyricized beauty). This lends support to the idealism and fantasy. This, with the following few lines, also begins to answer the question we ask in the previous line. What is the portrayal of this female?

A nameless girl in freshest summer greens,

Continuation of description. But why ‘nameless girl’? And there is the use of the indefinite ‘a’ – but why? It is repeated at the start of these three lines, but the significance is ...?


A saint, an angel - every canvass means

More ornate description. (Opal, ruby, saint, angel…) Is there something implied in the particular use of these? Saint is a near perfect human being and angel is perfect, no defect, so this alludes to perfection – i.e. the ideal and thus the idealised form of (aesthetic?) beauty.

The use of the dash is there to ….? Can anyone help me on this?


I am really hoping that anyone will join in and contribute whatever, as I would like to discuss all this and others' views are important to me as they will give me some scope for re-thinking.

[Mint]

Ah well, I've done this much, might as well do a bit more!

The same one meaning, neither more nor less.

Can anyone help me on this? What does it mean literally and what does it imply?
‘Same one meaning’ may be a reference to the limited scope for women given by males? If so, how can I make the connection between the quote and this interpretation clear?

He feeds upon her face by day and night,

He gazes at the painting, perhaps getting the painting perfect (I think).

‘Feeds’ is an interesting choice! Almost as if the artist ‘re-charges’ his obsession with the vision of her ‘ideal’ face. Never actually looks at the female subject but devours: ‘feeds UPON’. Consumes and is consumed by …the perfection…? Hmm… not sure… what to put after ‘consumed by’. Help anyone?

And she with true kind eyes looks back on him

The eyes of the painted lady look out from the painting at the painter.

Apart from this literal consideration, I am finding it difficult to interpret this in other ways – can anyone help again?

Fair as the moon and joyful as the light;

More description. Any other comment on this?


Well, I think that's it for now. Phewwww! Well, thanks for letting me use the board. Hope you all haven't minded and I hope someone will post in this thread. I haven't done the last three lines so if anyone wants to comment on those ...

I'm off to explore the rest of this forum now.

Bye for now. :wave:

[yanni]

Gaetano Polidori, Cristina's grandfather who presented her with a printing press, was the brother of John Polidori, the Vampyre's author who was "suicided" in London right after the book was published in 1821.

The Polidori (complete family name was Polidori-Chiveto) came from Zante and Gaetano did in fact return to the island, under british patronage, to participate in the elections for the probrit party after 1826-7.

His family were instrumental in the Dionisios Solomos lawsuit (1831-1836) against his mother and halfbrother that was concluded in favour of Solomos after the Zante murder of 1835 (see my Poe Announcement) and in fact another Polidori-Chiveto was married to a Solomos heiress in compensation for their role in the trial and possibly the murder too.

I am not implying the poem has something to do with all this but I am disturbed by the fact she uses "we found" instead of "we find" as well as the "queenin and ruby dress".

One should really research if the Rosettis had an art collection (before Dante-Gabriele), how they obtained it and where it now is (possibly at King's College?)

The Rosettis had a branch in Egypt as well (Asdrubal and Annibal, father and son, about 1765-1860) and therefore they Knew Yanni d'Anastasy ("Ianthe's" father) through the Bonforts (Annibal married Dorothea Bonfort in 1830).

That's all for the moment.

[yanni]

"We found her hidden" instead of "we see her" or "notice her" can only be intepreted as that she is not referring to her brother's model but to older paintings by someone else, in which paintings "they" suddenly discovered something they were searching for, a model of noble birth, possibly a model of her own father, a painter and a printer as well:

Gabriele Rosetti. (b. Feb. 28, 1783, Vasto, Kingdom of Naples --d. April 24, 1854, London, Eng.),

His origins, as well as his work as a librettist at San Carlo opera house in 1807, his appointment as a curator of the Capodimonte Museum there, all are indications of an eventual "Cocchi" relationship.

Gabriele's whereabouts 1821 (sentenced to death as a carbonaro)-1824 (escaped to London via Malta) are unknown and so is his painting work alltogether.

[I]In 1826 he married Francesca Lavinia the cleverest and bast looking of four daughters of Gaetano Polidori, Tuscan by birth but Londoner by adoption .

(As Gaetano's brother John in his "Vampyre" reveals however they were from Zante, ie the Polidori-Chiveti of previous post, extremely well connected to british "imperialist forces", after the "suicide" of John Polidori in 1822 in particular. )

If the poem is an early one of her works, possibly around 1852-1855, this would be a furhther indication she is referring to the same girl as her friend and admirer Robert Browning in his "Porphyria", a girl her father fell in love during his Zante years.

I have a pile of indications linking the Zante Polidori-Chiveti to the 1835 murder by Dionisios Solomos, their friend and relative (post 1835).The Polidori Chiveti profited from this murder as well and became next the owners of the famous house at Akrotiri (where Lord Nuggent resided later on and where Dion.Solomos is said to have composed his "Hymn to Liberty").

[yanni]

....and there is Antonio below who certainly was well aquainted with Gioachino Cocchi ...

ANTONIO ROSETTI (c.1750-1792): Symphony in D, A12, Symphony in G, A40, Symphony in C, A9, Symphony in F, A33. Dating from 1780 (A12) and 1784-5, these four symphonies continue the rediscovery of Rosetti as a symphonic composer. The rustic minuet of A9 has a trio for winds, a reminder of Rosetti's facility with wind concertos. Bucolic colors shade A33's minuet also and a strong personality is evident in all of the later works, with busy rhythms, chromatic twists, sudden pauses and playful themes. A fine addition to Chandos' "Contemporaries of Mozart" series. London Mozart Players; Matthias Bamert. Chandos 9567 (England)
http://www.recordsinternational.com/RICatalogDec97.html

[yanni]

In other words she realised suddenly that her father's (Rosetti who was suffering from a blinding illness) paintings were of a woman murdered in 1835 in Zante in which murder her grandfather's (Polidori-Chiveti) family had an active role.

That must have shaken the foundations of her evangelical faith and her trust to her mother as well.

Her grandfather's press was "made in France", my guess is, and he brought it back to England from Zante, sometime late 1835, early 1836.

[Mint]

Thank you very much for your intriguing input. I am awed by your comments: they provide me with new associations and connotations that I had not considered and did not know of.

I must say that I only made simple assumptions of 'We found her hidden just behind those screens', in that it is like 'We perceive her...' which then suggests a community of women able to see through men's representation, who are not taken in by 'his dream'...

I found your comment of some import:

'...she realised suddenly that her father's ... paintings were of a woman murdered in 1835 in Zante in which murder her grandfather's (Polidori-Chiveti) family had an active role. That must have shaken the foundations of her evangelical faith and her trust to her mother as well.'

Yes, Christina Rossetti was very religious - I think many of her works are explicitly religiously devotional - and if she made such a realisation, then, well, of course shocking and censurious. But is that the censure coming through in the poem in the negative nuances at the end? Sorry, am getting to grips with it. Also, I never considered the painting could be in reference to her father's models... if so, what is Rossetti saying about it...? Hmmn ... I can see how limited my thinking was.

As for:

'If the poem is an early one of her works, possibly around 1852-1855, this would be a further indication she is referring to the same girl as her friend and admirer Robert Browning in his "Porphyria", a girl her father fell in love during his Zante years,'

I am trying to work it out. Are you saying that the woman in the paining in the Rossetti's poem may be a reference to Porphyria in the poem 'Porphyria' by Browning??? Isn't that the poem which is a dramatic monologue in which the girl, Porphyria, is murdered by her lover, the speaker in the poem, in order to preserve the moment of her love for him and thus be his forever? Because she defied society, friends and family to be with him and may later have bowed to the pressures.

But in the poem, as I remember someone once telling me, wasn't Browning also exploring contradiction? Morality versus sensation? How can society consider beauty of female body immoral but never question the language of poetry, which is sensual? (Victorian newspapers were full of scandals...)

So if Rossetti's poem is a reference to the Porphyria of Browning's poem, then is Rossetti also taking up the critique of Victorian double standards...? But how can this claim be strengthened? Uh, what I mean is, I would have difficulty putting it into explanation using Rossettit's poem...

Errm you write 'a girl her father fell in love during his Zante years,' in juxtaposition with the Porphyria claim, so is that another possible interpretation you present of Rossetti's poem, completely separate to the Porphyria claim or are you saying that Porphyria is a reference to 'a girl her father fell in love during his Zante years,'. Uh, I am sorry, I'm just getting to grips with it all. :blush: :redface: Hope you don't mind.

If it is a separate reference to 'a girl her father fell in love during his Zante years,' in which case, he paints as he has fantasised...?

If your claim is not separate from this bit: 'referring to the same girl as her friend and admirer Robert Browning in his "Porphyria",' then, how can there be a connection between the two?

Thanks once again for your important contributions. Hope to hear from people again. :)

Regards.

[yanni]

Read through the "Two works by Poe decoded.Announcement" thread and most of your questions will be answered save one:

Who really was Ianthe, Lygeia, Porphyria etc of Poe, Browning and Cristina, d'Anastasy's daughter, what made her so special and what became of her next.

You see, the "artist's studio" girl does not die ("not as she is") but, following a tragic event (the 1835 murder), she continues living apparently but is propably totaly deranged.

Life is always much more complicated than any virtual art, isn't it?

I'll be posting on the subject further in my own thread soon.

My regards, your input has been really helpfull.