How important is the sound?

[The Unnamable]

How much does sound contribute to the meaning of a poem? Is it possible to write a nice poem in German? Is this why the Germans aren’t very sexually alluring? Why, on hearing a hear a French woman speaking her native language, do my pupils dilate?


What is the difference between these two?


In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.


In Bakerloo did Ali Khan
His shapely little gnome reveal:
While Alf, the naked ice cream man
Round Cardiff drives his orange van
While drinking cups of tea.

[blp]

Is this why the Germans aren’t very sexually alluring?

You mean Germans like Marlene Dietrich?

[The Unnamable]

Why do you think she needed to wear black leather and carry a whip?

[blp]

Pah. She could turn me on over the phone. ;)

Still, I've heard it said that German is the language of philosophy - but never of poetry.

Have you ever heard Ian Dury's 'A bussman's prayer'?

Our favver 'oo art in Hendon
Harrow Road be thy name
Thy Kingston come
Thy Wimbledon

and I don't know the rest...

[The Unnamable]

Our Father who art in Hendon
Harrow Road be thy name
Thy Kingston come
Thy Wimbledon
In Erith as it is in Hendon
Give us this day our Berkhampstead
And forgive us our Westminsters
As we forgive those who Westminster against us
Lead us not into Temple Station
And deliver us from Ealing
For thine is the Kingston
The Purley and the Crawley
For Iver and Iver
Crouch End


I love the end.

[The Unnamable]

Pah. She could turn me on over the phone. ;)
I dont think you should tell us the methods you use to get turned on. ;)
£1 a minute?

[blp]

Cheap at the price.

I promise to get serious about this subject when I have more time.

[The Unnamable]

I promise to get serious about this subject when I have more time.
I can't promise I will. :D

[Whifflingpin]

"How important is the Sound"

Is that the first line of a hymn?

[The Unnamable]

I might have known you'd bring religion into it. :D

[blp]

I can't promise I will. :D

A little gentle persuasion, perhaps...

Almost all of the painter Ed Ruscha's career has involved painting words. I can't find an image of it, but there's a piece by him I like called, and depicting the words,

ANOTHER HOLLYWOOD DREAM BUBBLE POPPED

The critic Dave Hickey points out that there's a strong visual element to this. Anyone want to point out what it is?

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I once had a short fling with a German girl. Her accent, in English and German was sexy as ****! She could sing too, sounded like Nico - another sexy Kraut.

AND she shaved her armpits, which is more than you can say for most French girls!

[Whifflingpin]

"I might have known you'd bring religion into it."

Well, it was either that or be serious.

I would have quoted you a nice German poem, except that the one I thought of sounds awful without the music.

Now, had it been Russian... Vot rom'an, eto moy rom'an ... such depth, such rhythm, and that was only on page 11 of "Russian made simple"

Anyway - I've found the hymn

"O How important is the Sound
Of my sweet Saviour's voice
That makes my pleasures to abound
And leads me to rejoice"
Hebridean Metrical Psalter 1625

I believe that Donne's original verse had "sweet mistress' voice"

.

[Virgil]

Good question Unnamable. Not being a linguist I can't really talk about other languages and their sound effects in literature. As to english, a poet may choose to use sound effects, (Tennyson does so quite often) but he may not choose either. Actually, I was just (the other day - do you read minds too?) skimming through a book by Robert Pinsky (American contemporary poet) The Sounds of Poetry: A Brief Guide. Sound is among the arsenal of techniques a poet uses to charge the language, such as imagery, rhyme (which is a sound effect), meter, metaphor, etc.

BTW, I think I've spoken on this elsewhere, but to most lovers of Opera, Italian is the only language. Italian is the perfectly constructed language for spoken music, and that is because of the vowels, the very iambic nature of its rhythm, and probably more so than I know. Keith Richards, of all people, when asked what's the secret of song writing responded, "It's in the vowels."

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Is it possible to recite a beautiful poem in a Birmingham accent (West Midlands, not Alabama)? That's what we should be asking.

[Isagel]

I feel I have to defend german poetry. Goethe and Morgenstern wrote poetry that can be both tender and forceful. This one by Goethe does not really work as well in english, still I present it as my first evidence. I think that sound is important, but german does not have to be guttural, like in the movies. It can be soft and kind, with a melody to it, not a shout.

EIN GLEICHES
Über allen Gipfeln
ist Ruh,
in allen Wipfeln
spürest du
kaum einen Hauch;


Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
ruhest du auch.

SAMENESS

Over all hilltops
is peace
in all the treetops
you feel
barely a breeze;

The birds in the forest have
stopped their song
Wait, before long
you too will be still.

[TodHackett]

How much does sound contribute to the meaning of a poem? Is it possible to write a nice poem in German? Is this why the Germans aren’t very sexually alluring? Why, on hearing a hear a French woman speaking her native language, do my pupils dilate?

Funny, I have the same reaction to German "Frauleinen". Seriously-- I melt. The french chicks just sound pretentious.

I might direct you to Neil Postman's essay, "My German Question" in _Coscientious Objections_. One of Postman's more interesting suggestions is that there is a strong connection between the German language and the German culture's perpetual role as spoiler (think Fall of Rome, the Reformation, and the World Wars).

It might have been Postman (or not), but I remember reading a very intriguing essay that suggested that it is no coincidence that the very same cultures that gave us European opera also invented Fascism. Hearing Verdi and Wagner (or singing both, as I have), one can understand how a whole national identity might be forged around beautiful but childishly romantic, fantasies.

[Isagel]

It might have been Postman (or not), but I remember reading a very intriguing essay that suggested that it is no coincidence that the very same cultures that gave us European opera also invented Fascism. Hearing Verdi and Wagner (or singing both, as I have), one can understand how a whole national identity might be forged around beautiful but childishly romantic, fantasies.

I think I have to read that one.

Not related to german - I have sometimes thought about the problem with translating poetry from my language (swedish) into english. Usually the poem is destroyed in the process. There is a certain melody and clarity in the sound that is lost in translation. Someone said that the translator is a traitor. perhaps it is true. English is said be a better language for poetry then swedish, there are more words, and more poetic ones. But there is a style of poem that I just can´t show you, not becues the lacj of good words, but because the sound is gone. It is not as easy as rhyme or alliteration. The melody and sound produces a feeling. (there has to be a word for melody in language... I´ll look it up)

[Taliesin]

We feel exactly the same.
When we try to translate a poem from Estonian to english, something gets lost and there's a lot that gets lost.
The sound, yes, is totally different

[TodHackett]

Bart Baxter--

He's one of my favorites, and it's largely b/c of his sound. Take, for example, the portion of one of his poems I posted on another thread:

"Hair trigger, Night Train, fortified wine,
will he take her to the back,
will he beat her up bad?
Will he? Brawler-in-the-alley-Willy,
trashman-dour in the dark,
and the sharks and the marks
and the scared little runaways
in the crumby dumps,
and the picked-over dumpsters
turn tricks in the park.
Will he skintight, airtight, keep her quiet?
Will he keep her in the dark
till he can get the car turned around,
till he can tear off everything she wore,
till he can tear up everything
she ever came here for?
'She's a half-hearted little *****, isn't she?
She ain't so hot. Look at her.
She ain't nothin' now but Democracy.'"

How could one translate this from English? There's a rhythm to it that jumps off the page-- like Ginsburg, Baxter uses English more for its sound than its meaning. It's like Isagel said:


It is not as easy as rhyme or alliteration. The melody and sound produces a feeling.

As a singer, I come up against the sound of language-- esp. English, German and Latin-- every day. I think about it, a lot. There's a lot to think about.

[Isagel]

[i]"Hair trigger, Night Train, fortified wine,
will he take her to the back,
will he beat her up bad?



This sounds like Tom Waits. I need to read more by Baxter. Can you recommend anything?

[TodHackett]

Bart Baxter is a bit obscure... he's originally from Texas but now lives in the Seattle area-- there, he's fairly well known. I first came across _Peace for the Arsonist_ on a bargain books table at the UW Bookstore.

He has two books out that I know of:

_Sonnets from the Mare Imbrium_. In that book, there's a pair of poems called "Ode to St. Pauli Girl", parts I & II. Love 'em both.

_Peace for the Arsonist_, which has the poem "For Democracy" (the above quote is the first chunk of this poem).

I remember from the back of one of these that Baxter won top honors in MTV's annual poetry slam one year. Read "For Democracy", you'll know why.

[sdr4jc]

How much does sound contribute to the meaning of a poem? Is it possible to write a nice poem in German? Is this why the Germans aren’t very sexually alluring? Why, on hearing a hear a French woman speaking her native language, do my pupils dilate?




French is one of the most beautiful languages to the ear. It's known as the language of love. As far as the difference between the two, I just know I like French much better! ;)

[Virgil]

I'll take Italian over all other languages. :nod:

[blp]

The french chicks just sound pretentious.

Yeah - and they're sulky and shrug a lot and say 'pff...it's not interesting.'

[Virgil]

This reminds me of the Rolling Stones song, "Some Girls"


French girls they want Cartier
Italian girls want cars
American girls want everything in the world
You can possibly imagine

English girls they're so prissy
I can't stand them on the telephone
Sometimes I take the receiver off the hook
I don't want them to ever call at all

I can't copy over some of the other lyrics. It spills into profanity. Fun song, though. :lol:

[blp]

Bottom of page 2 and we're getting nowhere. To what extent does sound contribute to the meaning of a poem? You mean like - to what extent is poetry onomatopoeic? onomatopoesy.

It's going to vary isn't it, from poem to poem? What interests me about this - not sure if it's what you were getting at, Unnamable - is the assumption I run up against constantly that poetry is essentially oral and aural. Not sure if this is about meaning for the people who believe it - maybe just a sort of rhythm or musicality. But then, that's likely to be about meaning a lot of the time. If you write a poem about death, but give it a jaunty rhythm and an ABAB rhyme scheme, it's going to affect the meaning.

But it's only half the story. All written poems are visual compositions to the extent that the poet makes decisions about line breaks and line lengths. You can argue that these are only used to direct the reader's sense of the poem's sonority, but the visual element can become important in itself, e.g.:

-- There will be a famous calamity in stony Troezen,
the royal staircase will grow red with disgrace
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
and for the mother in love,
the black sun will rise.
(Osip Mandelstam)

.............................................Try a play again
.........................................Every little play helps
..............................................Anot her play.
There is any difference between resting and waiting.
....Does a little dog rest.
....Does a little dog wait.
(Gertrude Stein)


....we belong to a kind of sentimental Touring
Club

......A CASTLE IN PLACE OF THE HEAD
(Andre Breton)

And then there's the example I posted before, which it's author Ed Ruscha painted on a canvas and probably wouldn't have called a poem, though it has a certain pleasing sonority. It also has the rather more pictorial quality of numerous doubled letters:

ANOTHER HOLLYWOOD DREAM BUBBLE POPPED

- something not audible at all.

You'll never lose the fact of words being associated with sounds, but some poetry seems to insist on being seen on the page in that it includes elements that can't be conveyed by reading aloud. So far does a piece of writing have to go from relying on sound for its effect before we stop calling it a poem?

[The Unnamable]

I would have quoted you a nice German poem, except that the one I thought of sounds awful without the music.

Now, had it been Russian... Vot rom'an, eto moy rom'an ... such depth, such rhythm, and that was only on page 11 of "Russian made simple"
Two heartbreaking pieces of music come to mind (three if you include Kraftwerk).
Beethoven's An die ferne Geliebte – “For the Faraway Beloved'”
and
Schubert's Winterreise (although he was born in Vienna, this was part of ‘Germany’ at the time)
I must admit, I love the sound of Russian, even the bit you supplied.

[The Unnamable]

Is it possible to recite a beautiful poem in a Birmingham accent (West Midlands, not Alabama)? That's what we should be asking.
Now this is getting really interesting. Stratford is in the Midlands and it’s pretty likely that Shakespeare had an accent that was close to Brummie (the word can be used either as a noun or an adjective to refer to Birmingham). I can’t recreate this phonetically here; those who haven’t heard a Brummie accent should really try to do so. It will give you a whole new perspective on Shakey (and I don’t mean Neil Young). I wonder what those whose first language is not English (and I include Americans in this) would make of Hamlet’s soliloquy read in a Midlands accent.

My supposed preference for French was just a ruse; I knew people would despise my tastes. I’ve invited a Fraulein to visit me at Easter. You must remember that, as a Welshman, I like the sound of guttural scratching.

[Virgil]

Would D.H. Lawrence had that same accent? He was from the Nottingham area.

[The Unnamable]

It would have been closer to Lawrence's than say, the BBC English of newsreaders but a Brummie and a Nottingham accent are noticeably different.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Lawrence was actually from Eastwood. A mining vilage / small town about 10 miles from Nottingham. An Eastwood accent is noticably different from a Nottingham one (with elements of the Derbyshire dialect) and very different to a Brummie accent. I read somewhere that when he won his scholarship to Nottingham High School he was derided for his 'country bumpkin' way of talking.

My parents live "no' but a cough 'n' a spit fr'm Eastwood" so I know the sound of the accent well. Nowadays, regional accents in Britain are losing much of their character, but Eastwood's still has it's own distinct sound, albeit nothing like as strong as in Lawrence's day - blame TV.

Here's (http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series7/dialect_voices.shtml) an interesting BBC article on the dialects of Nottinghamshire and the surrounding area.

And here's a taste of old Eastwood, one of Lawrences 'dialect' poems.

The Collier's Wife - DH Lawrence

Somebody's knockin' at th' door
Mother, come down an' see!
—I's think it's nobbut a beggar;
Say I'm busy.

It's not a beggar, mother; hark
How 'ard 'e knocks!
—Eh, tha'rt a mard-arsed kid,
'Ell gie thee socks!

Shout an' ax what 'em wants,
I canna come down.
'E says, is it Arthur Holliday's?
—Say Yes, tha clown.

'E says: Tell your mother as 'er mester's
Got hurt i'th' pit—
What? Oh my Sirs, 'e never says that,
That's not it!

Come out o' th' way an' let me see!
Eh, there's no peace!
An' stop they scraightin' childt,
Do shut thee face!

Your mester's 'ad a accident
An' they ta'ein' 'im i'th'ambulance
Ter Nottingham'.—Eh dear o'me,
If 'e's not a man for mischance!

Wheer's 'e hurt this time, lad?
—I dunna know
They on'y towd me it wor bad—
It would be so!

Out o' my way, childt! dear o'me, wheer
'Ave I put 'is clean stockin's an' shirt?
Goodness knows if they'll be able
To take off 'is pit-dirt!

An' what a moan 'ell make! there niver
Was such a man for a fuss
If anything ailed 'im; at any rate
I shan't 'ave 'im to nuss.

I do 'ope as it's not so very bad!
Eh, what a shame it seems
As some should ha'e hardly a smite o' trouble
An' others 'as reams!

It's a shame as 'e should be knocked about
Like this, I'm sure it is!
'E's 'ad twenty accidents, if 'e's 'ad one;
Owt bad, an' it's his!

There's one thing, we s'll 'ave a peaceful 'house f'r a bit,
Thank heaven for a peaceful house!
An' there's compensation, sin' it's accident,
An' club-money—I won't growse.

An' a fork an'a spoon 'ell want—an' what else?
I s'll never catch that train!
What a traipse it is, if a man gets hurt!
I sh'd think 'ell get right again.

[Taliesin]

This is an old sort-of-a-joke that this topic reminded us, but still, if anyone hasn't heard:


A Finn and a Swede argue whose language is more beautiful.
They ask an Englishman to be the arbitrator. The Englishman asks them to translate a line of poetry by Shelley:

Island, island,
Grassy island
Grassy islands' bride

The Finn translates:

Saari, saari
Heinasaari
Heinasaaren morsian

The Swede translates:
Ö, ö
Hö ö
Hö ö's mö

Sometimes it is wiser not to translate poetry.



Plus, a lot of poetical elements/techniques base on the sound - rhymes, alliteration, assonance, consonance, rhytm et cetera.
They make poetry sound like music in our opinion - this makes sound especially important in that poetry that has originally been sung - "Kalevala", for example.
In free verse (without these techniques) sound is not so important than in where there are those techniques.

Although, some word combinations just sound good ("Cellar door" or "sõida tasa üle silla", for example) for some queer reason.

[Virgil]

Lawrence was actually from Eastwood. A mining vilage / small town about 10 miles from Nottingham. An Eastwood accent is noticably different from a Nottingham one (with elements of the Derbyshire dialect) and very different to a Brummie accent. I read somewhere that when he won his scholarship to Nottingham High School he was derided for his 'country bumpkin' way of talking.

My parents live "no' but a cough 'n' a spit fr'm Eastwood" so I know the sound of the accent well. Nowadays, regional accents in Britain are losing much of their character, but Eastwood's still has it's own distinct sound, albeit nothing like as strong as in Lawrence's day - blame TV.

Here's (http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series7/dialect_voices.shtml) an interesting BBC article on the dialects of Nottinghamshire and the surrounding area.

And here's a taste of old Eastwood, one of Lawrences 'dialect' poems.
Thanks XC. I find it amazing how England perhaps a tenth the size of the U.S. in area and one sixth the population has so many more distinct accents than we do.