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Gurrato Alaien

02-22-2006, 04:05 AM

Here somthing like bomb:

The Aramaic Bible mentions "Muhammad" as the next Prophet of GOD Almighty

That "Paraklytos" is actually "Muhammad" in Aramaic - the mother tongue' of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h).

Follow me as we trace the Biblical history of this Greek word "Paraclete". Startling as it may seem, at one time the word read "Periklytos" and "Paraklytos", which is the name for "Muhammad" in Greek. Surprising? It should not be because both words mean "Praised" or "Celebrate," the meaning and character of the man "Muhammad." (1 Jesus in The Qur'an, One World Publications, (c) Geoffrey Parrinder 1965, 1995, ISBN 1-85168-094-2. Knowing this, there is a need for us to study the life of Prophet Muhammad in depth to see if it all stands up. Surprisingly it does.

Allahu Akbar (GOD is Great)!, for the complete explanation by Aramaic Bible Society please

This proved what has been said by Qur'an:

"Those who follow the apostle the unlettered prophet (prophet Muhammad - p.b.u.h) whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures); in the law (Torah) and the Gospel" (Qur'an 7:157)

According to Holy Qur'an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)

If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name 'Muhammad' also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16, it looks like this:

"Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow mahamadiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim."

To the reader: Embrace Islam you will be saved!

Peace.

miss tenderness

02-23-2006, 05:05 PM

thanks for ur valuable post
bless ya

bhekti

02-24-2006, 02:05 PM

Is Muhammad the same as Ahmad? Here in my country there are followers of Muhammad (Muhammadiyah moslems) and the followers of Ahmad (Ahmadiyah moslems). Would you give me some information about this?

Amra

02-24-2006, 02:15 PM

bhekt,

Prophet Mohammed a.s's full name is Ahmed Muhammed Mustafa. The followers of Mohammed a.s. are called muslims, and not Muhammediya. The Ahmadiya are not called like that because of the Prophet Mohammed a.s, but because they follow the teachings of Mirza Gulam Ahmed. He was born in India 1835, and formed this sect in 1880. It happened after England attacked India, and many believed that he was an english spy who formed the sect to divert people from the true teachings of Islam. Mirza Gulam Ahmed declared himself the promised Messiah who had returned. Muslims believe that Isa a.s (jesus) will return to the Earth and believe that his second coming is one of the signs of Judgment Day, however, muslims do not believe that the Messiah was Mirza Gulam.

Unspar

02-24-2006, 02:40 PM

Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth? Can you expand on this?

Amra

02-24-2006, 07:45 PM

Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth? Can you expand on this?

We believe that Jesus a.s was a Prophet of God, and among the five most respected and highly esteemed Prophets of God. The other four are Abraham a.s, Musa a.s, Noah a.s, and Mohammed a.s. Muslims do not believe that Jesus a.s was crucified, but we accept that he was the Messiah, born by a virgin Mary, and taken by God after his nation rejected him. We believe that Jesus a.s will return to the world, and fight the Anti-Christ (we refer to him as Dejjal). Before his coming, there will be a lot of injustice in the world, wars, and poverty. He will restore peace and harmony in the world which will continue until the Judgment Day. Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross, nor that he died at all, but we believe that God simply raised him and that he is in the heavens. When he comes for the second time, he will stay on the Earth for 40 days, and die a natural death.

In the next verse, Jesus a.s. says:

33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

Because we don't believe in the resurrection, and we don't believe that Jesus is dead, scholars interpret this verse to refer to his death after the second coming, and then when he says that he shall be raised up to life simply refers to Judgment Day when all people will be raised to life again.

Also, there are many hadith that talk about his second coming.

A hadith in Sahih Bukhari (Vol. 4. Hadith No. 658) says:
How will you be when the son of Mary descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur'an and not by the law of the Gospel.

A hadith in Abu Dawud (Book 37, Number 4310) says:
Narrated Abu Hurayrah:
The Prophet (Muhammad) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, bronze skin, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

Hope this helps...

Theshizznigg

03-04-2006, 04:08 PM

Really neat, I seem to remember that one book in the bible, if you took all of its beginning words it spelt Messiah in old Hebrew. Needless to say that people alway seem to make these connections, and we really have to ask ourselves, is this coincidence or no?

The Christian text claim that the Anti-Christ will come proclaiming he is God, and turn many to his religion, that all of us Christians will be pursecuted in those times, hunted and killed, and then that, God will bring about the end of the world. But God will remember his faithful, and will bring them back as he has promised us.

Mililalil XXIV

06-07-2006, 09:25 PM

Here somthing like bomb:

The Aramaic Bible mentions "Muhammad" as the next Prophet of GOD Almighty

That "Paraklytos" is actually "Muhammad" in Aramaic - the mother tongue' of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h).

Since this needs to be a literary discussion about the verse in John that mentions the PARACLETE, it would be pathetic to let the above statement go without sufficiently addressing it according to just such an analysis.

Whether or not John also wrote his Gospel in Aramaic - as many writers today publish their own books in more than one language that they speak -, he certainly did write it out in Greek himself - thus he himself thought the Greek word "PARAKLETOS" most suitable. When I have more time, I will go over whether variant Aramaic readings are more likely the direct result of a mistaking of one Greek term for another in transferring a statement from a Greek text to an Aramaic one, or some more likely due to some other cause.

Shield&Sword

06-08-2006, 07:12 AM

This word is interesting also because of it's location in scentence, and its meaning, and the work that this paraklytos will do.
We also find in the old test. profecies about a prophet who will come. Infact Jews still waiting the prophet untle nowadays, and in time of Muhammed peace be upon him they were saying to arabs "we will kill you all when our prophet come" they were waiting a prophet at that time, but when God sent the final prophet arabic they were so jelous because they thought that they are the house of profecy and didnt follow him.
Also after Muhammed peace be upon him got the massege from God, he sent a massege to king of Egypt who was a christians. The king answered that "i thought that this prophet will appear in sham (Syria, Jordan, palastine area), this mean that also chrsitans knew there are a prophet will come.
When prophet Muhammed peace be upon him send a massege to king of Habasha (in africa) he believed in prophet Muhammed peace be upon him and followed him, this king was also christian.

The hebrew word of Muhammed is: מַחֲמַדִּ. The word mentioned in Song of songs is: מַחֲמַדִּים . Reading from right to left we see another 2 letters added, which are:ים . These letters are added as plural to respect, its common in hebrew language. For example God in english is: אלוהים . The last 2 letters in the end of the word are for plural, but the meaning remain God. These letters are added to show more respect, its common in hebrew language and also in arabic language when we want to talk about someone in respected way we talk in form of plural.

About the other texts will write later, if Allah wants.

Shield&Sword

06-13-2006, 04:43 AM

Saw that no one responded, so i will paste what i know about this subject, and the one that we can describe him with the title of this thread will respond.

Deuteronomy 18: 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

In this verse Moses peace be upon him say to his people israel that a prophet LIKE HIM, FROM THE MIDST OF THIER BROTHERS will come.
The only prophet that can be like Moses is prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, christians say that this prophet is Jesus peace be upon him, and this is the most strange thing, because a God Prophet does not exist in any language, and simply cant be. Beside Jesus peace be upon him wasnt like Moses. Beside God should say "i will raise my self" if Jesus is the intended one.

1- Moses was born from man and woman, so and Muhammed, Jesus wasnt.
2- According to christians Jesus is god, Moses wasnt and Muhammed wasnt.
3- Moses is the prophet that came with new laws from God, so and Muhammed came with new laws that canceled laws of Moses, Jesus didnt come with new laws, read Mathew 5:17.
4- Moses was married and got children, so and Muhammed, Jesus didnt.
5- Moses died normally and was barried, so and Muhammed, Jesus was raised to Allah and didnt die yet.
6- Moses Fought against his enemys, and used force, so and Muhammed, Jesus didnt.

The verse says that the prophet will come from the middle of BROTHERS of israel. If Moses peace be upon him was talking to all israel, then who are thier brothers? we know that Ismael (father of arabs) is brother of Isaac (father of israel) peace be upon them all. The brothers of Jews are Arabs, and the only arabic prophet is prophet Muhammed peace be upon him and all prophets.
Jew also called cousins brothers. See deu 4:2 the sons of Eso are cousins of people of israel, but they were called as brothers.

Will continue in other time if Allah wants.

Shield&Sword

06-14-2006, 05:35 AM

I will continue here the explination of verses i posted above.

Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him didnt know writing and reading, and in the verse above is written "and will my words in his mouth" and that he wont talk from his own, (see ٍSurah 53:3-4). While Jesus peace be upon him knew how to write and read. And then its written that if the prophet talk from his own then he will die. Here die is not only body die, but also teachings death and name death, while we find that prophet Muhammed pbuh didnt die, he is still alaive with his teachings, and his name is known frm east to west as prophet Muhammed, also the clue that prophet Muhammed was inspired is that he is the only one that talk in good and respectiv manner about all prophets, and the one who invited the only one God, God of Adam and Abraham and Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, and its the only religion that accept all prophets, and the muslim who deny one prophet then he wont get in paradise and will remain in hell for eternity, and he is out of islam.

Its written in John 14:26 that the one who will be sent will teach us every thing, and in verses above its written that this prophet will say every thing that God order him to say. This thing cant be said about Jesus pbuh, read John 16:12-15, Jesus admit that he didnt teach every thing, because his companions wont bear it, but the one who will come will teach people every thing. Muhammed pbuh tought us how to behaive begining from morning untle sleeping, and its the only religioun in world that have such teachings about every thing, words and acts.

Continue in other time.

thevintagepiper

06-14-2006, 09:45 AM

Since this needs to be a literary discussion about the verse in John that mentions the PARACLETE, it would be pathetic to let the above statement go without sufficiently addressing it according to just such an analysis.

Whether or not John also wrote his Gospel in Aramaic - as many writers today publish their own books in more than one language that they speak -, he certainly did write it out in Greek himself - thus he himself thought the Greek word "PARAKLETOS" most suitable. When I have more time, I will go over whether variant Aramaic readings are more likely the direct result of a mistaking of one Greek term for another in transferring a statement from a Greek text to an Aramaic one, or some more likely due to some other cause.

THANK YOU for actually defending the integrity of the gospel...

I find it almost ridiculous that anyone could think othrwise of this biblical passage, Shield&Sword.
Today the stress in everything seems to be that there are "so many similarities in Islam and Christianity." This is partially true....but the difference is Jesus, and that difference is everything.
The Bible, on no account, would state such a thing, when Muhammad teaches many things directly contrary to scripture, and that Jesus is merely an honorable prophet.

I'm glad you brought this up though.

Shield&Sword

06-14-2006, 11:34 AM

I dont find it ridicolous at all, and what i wrote can be true, not redicolous.
Perhaps we can say its strange and not logic, when people say that verse from Deu. talk about Jesus, mean "The God Prophet" in no world language or religioun teachings exist. But if you go and ask priests who is the prophet like Moses they will say "he is Jesus Christ".
The name of Muhammed pbuh is mentioned in Song of songs. I ask you is name of Jesus pbuh written in old test, you will say "yes, the Christ", well christ is not a name and any one can say i am christ, the name "Jesus" is not written in any verse of old test. And Jesus him self deny he is The Christ: Luke 20:41-44. The christ is not son of David.
So i think my explination wont be ridicolous.
Muhammed peace be upon him didnt teach any thing against Jesus peace be upon him, even Jesus didnt teach any thing about how we behaive in our day life, Perhaps he tought us things against teachings of Paul (even Paul tought things contrary to Jesus pbuh teachings, like the circumsising, and other thing).
Perhaps you mean that we deny Jesus pbuh is God, well Jesus didnt say about him self he is God, and there is nothing he did that approove he is God, and read his words in John 14:24, John 12:49, John 6:38, John 6:40 and especially John 17:3, he was SENT, a massenger a prophet a person with massege, i dont know what other words i can describe him pbuh.
And Jesus pbuh admit he didnt teah every thing, so if Muhammed tought every thing, then he for sure didnt teach against Jesus (why there is someone who will come and teach every thing if not our acts which will send us in paradise according to Paul, but believing in crucifiction?).
And finally If Muhammed peace be upon him tought that Jesus pbuh wasnt crucified, well stories of bible contraddict between each other, and Jesus pbuh him self said that the one who will come "will reprove world of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; John 16:10)" You will say how someone can reprove for righteousness, well the only thing is that Jesus pbuh wasnt crucified but was raised directly to God, this is the righteousness that people didnt believe (that he was directly to God) and will be reproved for. There is no man on earth came after Jesus pbuh and talked about crucifiction and that it didnt happened, but in same time affairmed that Jesus pbuh was Raised to God but Muhammed pbuh, all muslims believe Jesus pbuh wasnt crucified but was RAISED directly to God and that he will come back. Its the righteousness.
I think its not ridicolous at all.

thevintagepiper

06-14-2006, 10:13 PM

You will say how someone can reprove for righteousness, well the only thing is that Jesus pbuh wasnt crucified but was raised directly to God, this is the righteousness that people didnt believe (that he was directly to God) and will be reproved for.

Ah, but you see, I don't believe that. I believe that the reason He is exalted in heaven now is for the very reason that He was crucified-and raised again. We could have no chance to be with god when we die otherwise.
Even you must see that none of us could ever be good enough to do enough good to get us to heaven. We all have sin, we all make mistakes, we all are tempted by evil things, and sometimes give in to those temptations. God, who is all powerful and just, cannot accept our meager offerings of a few good deeds.
BUT since God is also merciful, He has provided a way out. That way is by someone else taking our sins...and of course, that person would have to be perfect, which we are not. That person was Jesus Christ, God's Son...but also God, because they are one in the Trinity. He died so we wouldn't have to.
Unless Jesus, and the real Jesus in a Christian sense, was the one who died, we would have no way to heaven. It is quite logical, see?
(although, in another debate I was coming against logic...in any case, I am still applying to that weakness)

Now, about it being ridiculous, I mean, look at what Mililalil wrote. It makes perfect sense. Unless John was trying to convey something in code (very unlikely), what you are saying is a little off the wall.

As one more point, the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written by eyewitnesses of Christ's time. They saw everything that happened and wrote shortly afterward. The Qur'an was written after the Bible, and a great deal of time after Muhammad lived...it was passed down by word of mouth and ear for a long time. I will get the exact statistics sometime soon.

Whifflingpin

06-15-2006, 04:28 AM

"God, who is all powerful and just, cannot accept our meager offerings of a few good deeds."

Why?

Shield&Sword

06-15-2006, 05:37 AM

Nope, The holy Quran was written on stones and animals bones and other things they used to write on in that time.
The Holy Quran was preserved in 3 methods: in people minds (in our time nearlly 9 million people put whole holy Quran in mind), in papers (was gathred in one book at time of first calipha Abo Bakr in a book, Abo Bakr died 2 years after prophet pbuh died), in people behaivings and acts (people return to holy Quran in order to know how to behaive and to know the different laws in different things). So the holy Quran was preserved 100%. Beside the Holy Quran of the 3rd calipha Othman who copied the holy Quran for people and took a compy for him self is still untle now in Turkey, and its equal to what we have in our hands. Also if you go from Japan to USA you will find same holy Quran word by word in all places, while we see orthodox bible differ from catholic bible and these 2 differ from protestant bible, you can look at apocrypha, Daniel 13, 14.
You talked about trinity, you can go to verse in John1 (first massege) 5:7 in king James version and you will see trinity so clear, and its the only verse that talk about trinity, but if you open the bible you find it in your house for example NIV, you wont find this verse, you will find only the first part of the verse, but trinity is disapeared. In short words IT WAS CANCELED, so after 1980 years trinity was canceled in scilent way but it still holy word of God.
You talked about good deeds and that God cant accept (word CANT cant be uesed with God) but Jesus pbuh him self (contraddict with you and with Paul who said not good deeds which will make people get in heveans but the cross) said in Mathew 19:16-17 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Jesus pbuh is so clear here: "keep the commandments", where is crucifiction? and why Paul said NO COMMANDMENTS? Paul the enemy of Jesus the one who said in Ga 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" Paul Paul Paul, if there is one cursed is the one who say such thing not Jesus peace of God be upon him.
You said Jesus pbuh is God, i asked one verse said by Jesus he is God but no answer, i gave you verses show he is Sent from God, but here another proof he is not God: John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
God has a God?
Crucifiction, i talked about contraddiction between stories, and no one asked me proof i dont know why. But lets see this proof said by Jesus him self: do you know the sign of Jonah (the prophet who remained alive 3 days and 3 nights in the whale). Jesus pbuh said in Mathew 12:39 that the people ask a sign, but he didnt say i gave life to died people and i feed 5000 people, he said that sign of Jonah will be given to them, in Mathew 12:40 Jesus pbuh say that he will remain 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS as Jonah remained, he said this period because its important. Jesus was barried in friday night and saturday day and night and was raised sunday morning (go back to story of crucifiction in bible) so we find 2 NIGHTS 1 DAY, did Jesus lied? no, then what is wrong? perhaps the witnesses mistaked? sure. Beside Jesus said SIGN (sign of Jonah is that he remained alive in the whale, this is the sign) and what sign in being barried as christians believe, so Jesus WAS ALIVE while people thought they killed him but wasnt he was another one, read John 20:15 Jesus was dressing clothes of garnder, why? he was died and then ressurrected no? then why he was dressing as garnder and even Marry didnt know him? was afraid that people take him? as its known the man die one as its written in bible not twice, also Jesus did his work and was died for men sins as you believe then why he was dressing as gardner? because he wasnt killed, because they took the wrong man, while Jesus was ALIVE and was afraid from Jews and then he was Raised to God alive. This what Muhammed pbuh came to say.

Shield&Sword

06-15-2006, 06:09 AM

I will ask you a question.
Psalms 22:1-18 Christians agree that verses here talk about Jesus pbuh.
Even In John 19:24 and Mathew 27:35 (in KJV the part that refer to the prophecy in mathew exist but in now adays bibles this part was deleted, you can go back and check) they refer to this psalm. And we see alot of words written in this psalm are written in new test. in stories of desrcibing the crucifiction.
We find that in this pslam the one who is cricified say about him self in psalms 22:6 "But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people." Is Jesus a worm? was he reproach of men? (you know a muslim that say such thing about Jesus or any prophet will be out of islam and hell is his place) But for sure this psalm talk about one who was crucified, about a one who will be reproach of men and despised of the people, the one that was really crucified was another one, God made another one like Jesus and people thought he is Jesus, and God gave another man to be crucified, the bad one perhaps, the one who will be despised of the people.
When we ask priests who is the person that this psalm refer to, they say Jesus, the next question is: the person that was crucifeid say about him he is worm and talk bad about him, is this person still Jesus, they say yes without giving any explination, because if they say no its not him then another one was crucified so they prefer to insult a little bit god but not to say truth.
Jesus wasnt worm, Jesus wasnt despised of the people, Jesus is one of greatest men who walked on this earth, and his mother is one of best women who walked on this earth. Muhammed pbuh came to say this about Jesus pbuh, he came to give the right image, and to say not Jesus who was crucified but another one who God made him like Jesus read in holy Quran surah 4 verse 157.
So is Jesus worm as its written in verses?
Also in other verses in old test we find that God accept always prayers of the christ while in the pslam we find that the crucified say about him self that God doesnt accept his prayers.
If we begin to read Psalms 20 we find that there is some one who pray for God to help another one, and then we find that David say NOW i knew that God will help the christ and then in 21 we say happiness because God will help him, and then we see that God will punish his enemys and after that come the story about the one who will be crucified, the worm as he talk about him self, and he cant be the christ because christ is not worm and christ will be saved as written in pslams 20, 21. So we see a whole prophecy about the story of crucifiction, Prayers will be made, God will respond and help the christ, then a bad one will be crucified.
All are from verses.

thevintagepiper

06-15-2006, 09:53 AM

Whifflingpin: Why?

Because God is so far above us-He is perfect, without sin, unable to sin. Sin cannot be in His presence and we are full of it, no matter what we do. Therefore good works can never be enough. We all fall short.

I will answer your posts later, Shield&Sword, the next few days will be EXTREMELY busy for me though....sorry.

Shield&Sword

06-15-2006, 11:39 AM

Its ok, i am busy a little bit.
But its not logic to say that God sin and we full of sins because God who created sins from begining. For sure God doesnt sin, even its not logic to talk about it like that.
Adam pbuh sinned, God is so merciful why he didnt forgive adam right away? for sure he knew that Adam will sin, and he created sins because of something he wants, God wasnt playing around when he created world, HE got purpose.
Another thing not logic in sins and crucifiction and i asked users here and no answer. Always humanity gave sacrifications (like animals, sheeps, cows) so God will forgive them, and if God accept he will forgive.
If we sinned because of Adam pbuh then for sure we must sacrifice something to give it to God so he will forgive us, but in christianity belief GOD KILLED HIM SELF SO HE COULD FORGIVE, my question is TO WHOM IS GIVEN THE SACRIFICATION IF PEOPLE SACRIFIED GOD? for sure not gived to God because the sacrified thing is different from the one who will accept sacrification and forgive sins. Would it be easier that God forgive right aways without being killed and then forgive (not logic), no?
Any way waiting your answers, and then will resume our talk about tha Parakletus.

Whifflingpin

06-15-2006, 12:00 PM

"God, who is all powerful and just, cannot accept our meager offerings of a few good deeds.
Because God is so far above us-He is perfect, without sin, unable to sin. Sin cannot be in His presence and we are full of it, no matter what we do. Therefore good works can never be enough. We all fall short."

In one phrase you say God is all powerful and in the next you say "He cannot."

We are as full of goodness as we are of sin and God can accept whatever He wants, however He wants.

Certainly, it is His grace, rather than our merit, which will effect any union between man and God, but it is perilous, even blasphemous, to try and put limits on that grace.

thevintagepiper

06-15-2006, 12:46 PM

I do not put limits on His grace or anything about Him. At another forum right now I am debating on the side of God's sovereignty. It is BECAUSE God is sinless and soveriegn that sin cannot come into His presence. It is not a limitation, it is the opposite....for example, if someone is beginning to play a musical instrument, they will have problems at first. There will be some notes they will have trouble hitting, or bad transitioons between notes, causing extra sounds. Eventually they will improve and advance, and then they will come to a point where they are so good that they couldn't make that fumble with their hands, when trying to show a student what they are doing wrong or something. That's a really bad example but...yeah.
So, God is perfect. Since He is perfect it is impossible for Him to sin, because He would then cease to be God, as God is sinless. Sin cannot come into the presence of God. Not because it would do any harm to God (our limited goodness doesn't do Him anything either...God is fine without us. He wants us to do what He asks for His good pleasure, not because it does anything for him).
We are not putting limits on our grace here. We are showing how manifold it is! That He is so high above us and still loves us and provides a way past that barrier of sin.

Shield&Sword....those sacrifices did provide a way across the barrier of sin for awhile. But would an animal, even an unblemished one, suffice for the sovereign God? It appeased Him for awhile, because He is merciful. But He wanted to provide a way once and for all, the final sacrifice for everyone.
As for "how could He accept the sacrifice if He was the one who was sacrificed..."
You know less of Christianity than you think--what about the Trinity? God is one. God is three.
Like the sun--the sun is one thing, yet it has three properties: substance, light, and heat.
God is one, but He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus, the Son, came down to earth as a man, yet He was still fully God, and one with the Father and Holy Spirit.
It is hard to understand, and we never will completely, but this is how God is. Jesus died for our sins and God the Father accepted the offering forever.
On another point, have you ever heard the story about the woman and the judge? She owed a lot of money to the court. She didn't have money, but she had to pay so that she wouldn't have to go to jail. The judge came down off his seat, and handed her enough money to pay. Then he climbed back up and asked if she would pay or go to prison. She gave the court the money.
This is like what Jesus did: We are sinful but we cannot ever pay by ourselves, so we have to go to h.ell when we die, which is like living death. But God paid for us so that we could live forever with Him in heaven.

Shield&Sword said: "But its not logic to say that God sin and we full of sins because God who created sins from begining. For sure God doesnt sin, even its not logic to talk about it like that.
Adam pbuh sinned, God is so merciful why he didnt forgive adam right away? for sure he knew that Adam will sin, and he created sins because of something he wants, God wasnt playing around when he created world, HE got purpose."

Alright, well, God did create Adam and the world and everything in it. But He did not create sin. God is sinless. He told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but he did anyway. The devil deceived hin. WE brought sin into the world. Not God.
As for the devil and his fallen angels and demons: God predetermined what would happen to each of us and His angels. Still, we have some amount of free will. The devil wanted to be like God, and was thrown out of heaven. God did not create his sin either.
Why didn't He forgive Adam and provide a final way right then? Because He had a plan and a purpose, as you said. God has His own timing for His own reasons. He wanted to show Himself to us, and show us how we cannot ever be good enough to make it to heaven on our own, so that we would seek Him. Adam and Eve were the only humans at that point! That wouldn't be as great of a thing.

Mililalil XXIV

06-15-2006, 01:01 PM

"God, who is all powerful and just, cannot accept our meager offerings of a few good deeds."

Why?
Without absolute Holiness, existence would be "hell" as people say. GOD possesses no evil - evil is a lack of HIS quality, which is Goodness. Absolute Holiness means absolutely being in Communion with GOODNESS HIMSELF. Were GOD not to treat Good and evil as absolute opposites, HE would compromise HIS own Essence, Which all the creation also depends upon for existence. It would be "hell" for HIM to abide for ever with evil, and it would afford HIS creatures no ultimate Rest.

A few "good deeds" without an absolutely good nature, free of deficiency, are to GOD as a few clear sounds from a cancerous throat in a doctor's eyes - only GOD is concerned with the more profound issue of the state of one's whole existence, as either possesseing Fulness or a lack of it. A man that uses teenaged prostitutes then goes home to his wife and children and does the dishes for his wife and plays in an outwardly decent manner with the kids does not please GOD with his household illusion. Anyone that does a few "good deeds" while sustaining sins is in serious trouble - though JESUS, the SAVIOR, scans HIS oppurtunities to run out and rescue the soul out of its troubles. The PARACLETE loves to help men out of their infirmities of soul - something Muhammad never could have done.

Good deeds ought to be our only deeds, and an omission of them ought to be regarded the same as comission of evil. We were given a nature by GOD - the human nature - that was made to exist in Goodness, in the Image and Likeness of GOD. Whoever does a few good deeds only lives up to the given nature in little disconnected points of similarity to it. To be and do well at all times is natural to being human - to sin is not human, but is a deficiency of one's humanity, just as to be satan is not to be cherubic, but is the fallenness of one once created to be the Covering Cherub. To simply hold up a sample of a flooring to be installed is not like filling in the whole surface of the floor with that flooring; neither, then, is it to be wholly human in only displaying a fragmented swatch of what ought to be manifest as the only quality of our GOD-given nature.

In sinning at all, the first angellic being who did and the first human creature that did broke a universal Peace, and even HOLY GOD was faced with evil, a deficit resulting from a hole in the spiritual fabric of beings HE created, due to their withdrawal from HIM. That this might be dealt with not over all Eternity, but in a final and complete manner, without it being stretched out long, GOD created this present Age (Aeon), making it a concessional provision for Grace that separates beloved persons from the disease of sin, and HE bound up the whole conflict into a finite, temporal particle of time and space, that will burn up at HIS second coming, with HIS unveiled Face displaying all its Glory. In this Aeon we make Eternal Decisions, while going through temporal trials.

The one willing to be good, GOD helps as that one turns humbly to HIM for HIS help. HE sees the blotches in man's blotchy idea of Righteousness, but looks ahead to the soul's whole Redemption, as a gracious FATHER, blessing the soul submitting his/herself to Discipleship, in Good Deeds. In a whole-souled effort, GOD uses one's own regenerating Goodness to make a substantial intimacy between HIMSELF and that one - for the Bond of Love cannot exist without mutual and substantial offerings of Love. To clarify that last statement:
as a man is perfected, he more perfectly contains GOD's Love, and better lives as a Fountain of GOD's Love, ever offering an unbroken return of reciprical Love. Apart from this being established, the need for Salvation remains, and the man is still loveless toward GOODNESS HIMSELF, still self-perpetuating the hole in his GOD-given nature.

Good Deeds done out of a Good connection to GOODNESS HIMSELF hold great Merit - but Merit is simply the natural value and quality of anything in its right state. Since GOD doesn't make worthless things, one whom HIS free Grace perfects now reflects the perfection of HIS valuable Redemption, and possesses the Merits of being GOD's Saint. The Saint's Merits did not establish themselves, but that connection to GOD (the FOUNTAIN SOURCE of all Sanctity) that makes one a Saint holds those Merits ever firmly in place. As a repairer tests the restored utility of a thing repaired through uninhibited use, so GOD proves how really HE has established a Saint by HIS Grace in answering the Intercessions of perfected Saints on behalf of those humbly accepting such elder fraternal support, while trusting with them in the help of the SAME HEAVENLY FATHER. The Work of CHRIST as saving a sinner is another matter, and the Offering of HIM (the DIVINE FOUNDATION) as the LAMB OF GOD is the Offering all our Offerings of ourselves back to GOD depends upon. HIS SELF-Sacrifice is the infinite Grace of GOD as the only Basis for balancing all back into universal Holiness. For the violation of the original universal Peace, Atonement had to be made, and simply doing a few good deeds after the fact of the violation provides no offering suitable to such an infinite and wholly universal task of mending the scar on Justice.

Shield&Sword

06-15-2006, 01:59 PM

I talked about sacrification and how its not logic, God kill him self and then he give this sacrification to him self. And you gave me the story of judge, i dont know where is the similarity: If the Judge had a PERSONAL PROBLEM with the woman FOR SURE HE WONT MAKE A CASE FROM THE BEGINING AND WONT BE COURT AT ALL, but when the judge gave the woman money its because there are rights of others, and its the LAW THAT ALSO THE JUDGE GO UNDER IT AND NO ONE IS OUT OF THIS LAW, AND FOR SURE WHEN THE WOMAN PAID THE MONEY DIDNT GO BACK TO THE JUDGE BUT TO THE BOX OF COUNTRY.
I think you got the idea, so if the matter is between us and God (the Judge) then HE can from the begining forgive us without making a play and wont pay and then get the money back to him (wont be logic). So there is no similarity here.
You said trinity is like sun,the sun is made of light and other 2 things. These are PARTS of sun not the whole, the light is not sun som and the other 2 parts, if we make paragony with trinity and sun then we will conclude that Jesus is part of God and Holy Spirit is part of God, and Father is part of God, but you know christians say that Jesus is God and holy spirit is God and Father is God, but they are not 3 but one. Now i dont know in which language we can explain this, no example can explain this thing because its not logic from the begining. To make it more clear respond this question: Was Marry pregnant with the father and holy spirit also? was the father died on the cross OR ONLY JESUS AS YOU BELIEVE? The answer must be yes because they are the same as you say, but ....
Why we dont leave verses talk: always i talked about John1 5:7 and the most clear verse about trinity and how it was canceled but no answer, and there is no one other verse that refer to trinity or describe trinity or we can understand trinity from it.
You said God didnt create sin, and then you say Tree of Good and Evil, and what is evil? Every thing happen here good or bad its because because God created it, HE began every thing from nothing, alcohol God created it, killing and so on, because its logic, if you agree that God created good and there are evil in this world then who created evil. God choosed 2 things for us> 1. the ability to do good, 2. the ability to do bad, and there is no 3rd option because its God who created every thing. The one who choose good God will be pleased with him, the one who do wrong will get in hell. God didnt create good so we will do it and he will be happy, God has purpose when he created us, not because he feel lonely or to feel happy.
I understand from your words that God created Adam and eve and tree of good and evil and then created this world and created us sinfull so he can one day send him self on earth and be killed for 3 days and then he go back to heveans so we will say Oh how merciful you are and he will feel happy.
He could from begining create all humanity without Good and Evil tree and show us his mercy directly. Its not logic at all your words.
We are not sinfull, God is so merciful that he forgived Adam and Eve peace be upon them, He knew Adam will eat from the tree and He knew that there will be earth and good and bad before HE create anything, he didnt create sinfull creatures, he KNOWS and doesnt play arround, He knew who will go to hell and who will go to paradise before HE even create anything (his knowledge doesnt contraddict with our acts, because HE is able to know what is going to do people before they make the act), HE IS GOD, his knowledge doesnt begin in a specific moment.
God wasnt died, the laws he reate for his creatures He doesnt go under them. Death is a crteatd things, so how he go under something He created, Dose he got a body and soul as we got? then he will be creature also.

ShoutGrace

06-15-2006, 02:20 PM

Why we dont leave verses talk: always i talked about John1 5:7 and the most clear verse about trinity and how it was canceled but no answer

That just isn't true. If you would kindly take the time to look back over these two responses, I would much appreciate it.

1st Response (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=197522&postcount=39)

2nd Response (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=197761&postcount=45)

and there is no one other verse that refer to trinity or describe trinity or we can understand trinity from it.

I think that was adequately addressed earlier, as well.

I apologize if come across as short or rude. I do feel aggravated when you assert that your thoughts on this subject weren't responded to earlier.

Please question and consider anything and everything about the Christian faith that you want, and post your thoughts/concerns here on the forum. It is an important endeavor and I can personally say that I appreciate it greatly.

Mililalil XXIV

06-15-2006, 02:25 PM

Shield&Sword

06-15-2006, 10:11 PM

I was talking to thevintagepiper.
Shoutgrace:
Why you dont use the verses that show trinity so clear and explain them to us and explain how you reached this conclusion.
My purpose is that we dont find trinity in any other place but this, and it was vanished. For long time KJV was used to preach, and the manuscripts that were used to rewrite nowadays books are older (more close to Jesus pbuh time) than manuscripts used to write KJV. The point is more we go to time to Jesus pbuh more things get clear, for example the word "Begotten" in nowadays books in the verse that preachers use to talk to people always are vanished, but the problem is that people still use it, even in this forum i saw it, and was written in big letters, but people doesnt know that this word that mean Jesus could have nature of God (the begotten son has nature of his father) was canceled, its a word that was putten in bible just like that, and when they used scriptures closer to Jesus this word doesnt exist, because Jesus is not begotten, and God never begot, Jesus was born in miracle made by God (if God say to something be and it is) the matter is that we will never reach the bible of Jesus pbuh him self, but more closer to him more the image get clear. Same thing for trinity that no one will understand it from bible, you can try to give bible to someone who never read bible and ask him Did you arrive to conclusion that Father is God and Jesus is God and Holy spirit is God but they are not 3 gods but one, he wont say no, he will say what are you talking about.
Mary pbuh was pregnant with Jesus only, not Father not Holy Spirit, they were out side her womb, only Jesus pbuh was growing there, and was born covered with blood as any baby come to this world. Now when he was crying when he was baby did Mary pbuh say "oh God dont cry" and try to make him happy by giving him milk or playing with him? believe me i am not insulting here, Jesus's love live in our hearts also he is my prophet, but asking logic questions.
In no place Jesus state clearly he is God, even reading his words we understand he was sent as massenger, and from his words we understand he couldnt do any thing and he didnt know any thing without God. He stated he Has God, he prayed to God, even Jesus doesnt know when the day of judgment is read Mark 13:32, please tell me which God doesnt know when day of Judgment is? but he say so clearly that the Father know when this hour will come. Do you still say he is God?
I dont want to enter in other arguments.
Will try to talk about the subject of this thread.

Shield&Sword

06-17-2006, 05:06 AM

Surah 61 verse 6 "And remember, 'Isa, the son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery!"".

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
Here they explained the Paraklytos as Comforter, in John 14:26 its written between 2 "," that the comforter is the Holy Spirit.
In John 16:7 a condition of the coming of Paraklytos is that Jesus must go: "for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;". If we read bible we find the Holy Spirit already came in Jesus pbuh existence, you all know that mother of John when Marry came to visit her was full of Holy Spirit (it exist before Jesus pbuh birth), and Holy Spirit came when Jesus was baptised, It lead Jesus to the duvil to test him, Jesus pbuh blowed the Holy Spirit in his companions (John 20:22).
In the describtion of The one who will come in John 16:13 we find 7 pronouns in one verse, and no other verse in bible contain this number of pronouns of one thing but in this verse. These 7 pronouns cant refer to a ghost or spirit, it must refer to a man. John him self use word of spirit as prophet in John1 4:1 he ordered us to try prophet he is from God or not, it means another prophet will come because he wont tell us to check but it will be enough to say "there will be no prophets after Jesus", and a condition to know if the prophet is from God what he said in John1 4:2 "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" he use again word spirit as prophet as something in flesh, and the spirit (prophet) that confess Jesus came from God. The only person who came after Jesus pbuh and said he is pophet and confessed that Jesus is prophet was Muhammed pbuh and he made billion of people believe that Jesus is prophet and was born in miracle and raised to God without using one page of bible but by the last word of God the Holy Quran, and tought us to say "Peace Be Upon Him and His Mother Marry". Jesus said this thing also about the one who will come in John 15:26 " he shall testify of me:".

There is alot to say about this verse,

Shield&Sword

06-18-2006, 06:44 AM

Here i will write a little bit about Holy Spirit.
If we read whole bible we wnt find any clue that Holy Spirit is God, or part of trinity, and also reading Bible we wont arrive to this conclusion.
Reading Luke 11:13 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?". Here the Holy Spirit is a gift from God to people who ask him, to people who God and faith with pure hearts.
Co1 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
Here same Holy Spirit make the man know things of God, we cant understand it as God, but as Faith and as guideness from God, faith is given to people when they search it, people know right from wrong by faith they got and by guidness of God.
Also in Co1 6:19 we find that pure people are called temple of the holy spirit that given from God, also here we find that Holy Spirit is not person but something given from God to his faithful followers.
I wrote a little bit about Holy Spirit because christians say that the Holy Spirit is the one that will come.

In John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
The one who will come will have the ability to hear and to speak, these 2 things th Holy Spirit cant have, holy spirit doesnt hear or talk. Even he will have the ability to speak of him self, but he wont, he will speak what he hear from God, he will take from the same source that Jesus pbuh took from (John 16:14 "He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."), any one will agree that this person must be Man with flesh and blood and not holy Spirit. Here there is something important, Jesus pbuh said that the one who will come will glorify him because he take from god, and thats the sign that we use to know the real prophet.
John 15: 26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.". Here we see so clear that the one who will come will tastify AND also companions of Jesus pbuh will tastify, its clear that there are 2 who witness, if the companions will tastify because the holy spirit enter in them then it will be 1 tastify. Also its written that the Father will send the Holy Spirit, its not logic that God send God.
I hope i see responses. Will continue in other time if Allah wants.

Shield&Sword

06-19-2006, 04:55 AM

I think no one is interested in this thing. For me it was interesting, i searched about this nearly an year ago, and printed pages these days, was so exciting for me to read about this argument and discuss it here and so important also. But i see no one is responding, i dont know why, any way i think i wont paste any thing untle i find someone to talk with.

thevintagepiper

06-22-2006, 08:17 PM

Yes, I am interested, simply exessively busy, as I said ;) What with an overseas move coming up and all sorts of crazy summer stuff, I don't have a lot of time to do this even when I can visit the forum. I think it would help if you wait to post each time until someone has replied, unless you have something to add to the subject of what you wrote before...nobody really likes to reply to an entire page of posts!

I talked about sacrification and how its not logic, God kill him self and then he give this sacrification to him self. And you gave me the story of judge, i dont know where is the similarity: If the Judge had a PERSONAL PROBLEM with the woman FOR SURE HE WONT MAKE A CASE FROM THE BEGINING AND WONT BE COURT AT ALL, but when the judge gave the woman money its because there are rights of others, and its the LAW THAT ALSO THE JUDGE GO UNDER IT AND NO ONE IS OUT OF THIS LAW, AND FOR SURE WHEN THE WOMAN PAID THE MONEY DIDNT GO BACK TO THE JUDGE BUT TO THE BOX OF COUNTRY.

I am very sorry, but I find it hard to understand you...this doesn't make much sense but I'll answer as best I can.
The judge's problem is not personal. It is with a sin the woman had (for God; our sin).
Of course the woman's case would be brought before the judge-it needs to be brought before someone.
I don't understand your last sentence at all.

God has a God?
As I already said, with the Trinity this makes perfect sense--Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all God, but they are all One and still separate. Jesus is God but He was on earth as a man, and was crying out to God, His Father.

God wasnt died, the laws he reate for his creatures He doesnt go under them. Death is a crteatd things, so how he go under something He created, Dose he got a body and soul as we got? then he will be creature also.
When Jesus was sent to earth he had a human body. He was fully God and fully human.

Is Jesus a worm? was he reproach of men?

Jesus repeated the Psalmist's words on the cross, but the Psalmist (David) was not writing AS Jesus...David was writing because David was suffering. Jesus just used the same first words later.
As for the worm thing, it's a metaphor! Of course david isn't a worm. Of course Jesus isn't a worm. He means that he feels lowly like a worm, and worth nothing to anyone.
Jesus was despised and rejected. He was a man of sorrows. He was tortured and crucified!

Matthew 13:57
And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."

Mark 6:4
And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household."

Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected by men;a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

We are not sinfull

I am surprised to hear you say this. If you are not sinful, then what about the bad thoughts you have had? The times you have lied or disobeyed someone during your life? All the other things? Where do they come from? What are they?
We humans are not perfect. We ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is like there is a gap between our sin and God that we could NEVER get over. It is so endlessly deep and there is no way over. But, God provides a way with the cross by Jesus' blood that is perfect and can pay for our sin and appease God:

http://www.spelthornechurches.org.uk/images/bridge.gif

I am afraid I cannot reply to and read everything. I am not sure how much more of this I shall be able to do, my life is honestly chaotic right now (in a good way!) and once I move I may not be allowed to because of security. We will see!

God bless.

Shield&Sword

06-23-2006, 04:14 AM

I was pasting once a day but no one respond, i didnt do all toghether.
I will make judge thing more clear:
If the judge had a personal problem with the woman and he can forgive her right away without making the play of court, because any mind will accept it will be a stupid thing. Same thing for God, if the sin is between us and God and he has the ability to forgive us right away then He will do it without making the cross play and killing him self. But when the woman made something wrong to other person then this person went to the judge and said i want my right, then the judge must do the court and must take the right of that person from the woman, and when he saw her cant pay he paid for her and for sure the money wont go to Judge but will go to the person.
But in your belief God couldnt forgive sin (i dont know why) and then he decided to send men on earth and then to make him self so little, enter in woman womb and then to kill Him self so He could forgive sins. It will be like the judge who got problem with a woman so he decide he cant forgive her (i dont know why, if he is good he will) and then he decide to make a court and then to give the woman money so she could pay him his right and then he say i forgived you, any one hear the story of this judge will conclude he is mad or stupid.

No, in pslams the one who was crucified said worm, rerproach of men, despised of people about him self. And you couldnt say no he is not, you said it in other way "he felt he is worm". No muslim say this thing about any prophet. A piece of jewel is a piece of jewel no matter the ambience and no matter how people treat it, because its espensive for its own not because people make it expensive or not. Same thing prophets, they are more expensive than Jewels, and no one from them is worm or felt as worm or was reproach of men. But any way we arrived to conclusion that your god felt as worm.

Trinity doesnt explain anything, trinity is: Father is god, Jesus is god, Holy Spirit is god but they are not 3 gods, they are one God. I think that trinity need an explination, it doesnt explain any thing. You said: ". Jesus is God but He was on earth as a man, and was crying out to God, His Father." Now any one read this will find it logic, be honest with your self, and dont say that i dont understand andyou do, because no one understand it, because its not logic. If you understand it respond this question: was Marry pregnant with the Father or the Holy Spirit (if they are one with Jesus)? Was Father Died?
Beside if Jesus is God he must know when day of Judgment is, but he said he doesnt and only Father know when this day will come (mark 13:32), so where is the entire God? In bible only the father is clear he is God, no one else.

I know every one sin, no one is perfect. But christians believe that babys are born with sin for nothing they did, and believe in the original sin, thats what i meant by sinfull. You believe that God cant forgive ( untle now i dont know why, if he love us then he MUST forgive us) and He must suffer and die for us and only this will make us get into heveans (words of Paul not Jesus, Read Mathew 19:17). We sin but God is merciful, if we ask forgivenss with clear heart and decide to not god to same sin then He will forgive us, he is God and he knew every thing will happened before he create us, he didnt create Adam without knowing he will suffer and die.

In the image you put, when the man died, did God die? if Jesus was died then we will remove the cross and God and Man from the image (because they are one), but where the Father and Holy Spirit will be?
According to the image you put Jesus must be part of man and part of god, our matter is trinity not this image. Try to put an image with Father Holy Spirit and Son, and show relation between them.

Pendragon

06-24-2006, 11:05 AM

Allow me to interject something here that may seem irrelevant, but which may not be so.
Galatians 5:15 “But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.” Religion is not a competition to decide who is right or wrong. It is a place to come together in worship of God. We all may see HIM as others may not, but we must realize that God is unity, not division. Why do we always find the differences instead of the similarities, and point them out? Do we please God or Man? Ask yourself the questions. I judge no one. :angel:

Shield&Sword

06-24-2006, 01:35 PM

I didnt judge any one, but discussion is not forbidden every one put his papers on table. For sure there are one religioun true, its a fact, and every one think that his religioun is the right one. It doesnt mean not to talk and discuss things, even Jesus pbuh Jews came to him and asked him questions in order to show he is lier as they thought but he responded them and made the right way clear infront them but they refused it, there are difference between attacking other religioun by lies as most of west media do about islam (and you know it) and between what i am doing here by presenting points and ask people in polite way to discuss it perhaps i am wrong in these points so you make it clear to me or i am right. The one who got word of God will win the one who got word of man.
Religioun for every group is a place to come and worship God, but not for every group to come and worship God, islam is a place to worship God and budhism is place to worship god as they think but islam and budhism cant go toghether as one place to worship God, if thats so then perhaps you can send a massege to preachers in africa and poor places and tell them why you are preaching religioun is a place to worship God, these sweet words i heard alot of them. The question that i ask my self always: why when someone come and discuss us about islam we are so happy and interested while when we go and discuss other's religioun they pretend they didnt hear or escape or begin preaching sweet words? really this question is interesting. I dont think religioun is a competition, discussing religioun in good way with open mind and with proofs and evidences not lies is not a competition its a way to understand others or to clear things. Perhaps we should say this thing to western media which couldnt find evidences so they start to spread lies, your words will be good for them not me i didnt do any thing wrong.

Pendragon

06-25-2006, 09:12 AM

Shield&Sword, my friend, I was not pointing you out as an example, and I do sincerely apologize if that was how it seemed to you. You must understand that I do not esteem one Religion over another in the aspect of "You must be this way to be right". No. God will call, and His children will answer, wherever they may be. A Religion doesn't make one right, an experience with God as the Prophets had, to commune with God until He lives in our hearts, makes one right. To know Him, to trust Him in all things, to serve Him to the best of one's ability, to go the extra mile. To believe. He is the One who says it and it must happen exactly as He said it.

Can we not reach across boundaries and find love for each other? You mention Jesus, so let us use Him as an example. In His day, the Jews and Samarians had no dealings with each other, like a form of prejudice. Yet Jesus went out of His way for the Samaritan woman at the well. Can we not do likewise?

God smile upon you always... :angel:

Shield&Sword

06-25-2006, 04:16 PM

Well respecting other's religioun was always massege of prophets passing with Jesus and finishing with Muhammed peace be upon them. My religioun always tought me to respect other's religioun and every one has his own choice, and the person who ask guideness with clear heart God will guide him, and who refuse guideness then its between God and that person its not our duty to judge people and ony God know the content of hearts. Asking people to come and live toghether we always believed in it, but the problem is that others refuse us as people refused Jesus pbuh. Kashmir, Palastine, Iraq, Bosnia, Chechenia, Somalia, Hersik all these countries accepted others but others refused them, they are attacked only because of what they believe and you will never hear a muslim attack a person because of his religioun because our religioun teached us to respect and also tought us that others will refuse us. So words of "lets come and live toghether" we always used it, christians live in peace in islamic country, and you will never hear that they are treated bad by muslims, while since i arrived in west and people say lies about us, they show lies about us in media. We are people of work, we say to respect other's religioun and we act according this, we dont write slogans and act the opposite. So believe me i will always respect others, and accept to live with others because its our teachings. Since i was born i always saw Christians and Jews and lived with them but when i came here i saw reality, when i walk in streets i see books attacking us, i see books with image of covered muslim woman on it and a naked draw near it, i turn T.V on and see insults and lies, this thing made me know how good my religioun is, religioun that tought me to respect others and made me always act in that way and never made me live in lies. I like your words, but the fact is that these words you must say them to people arround you not me. Did you ever saw me in this forum attacking religioun? go back to my posts and tell me one lie i said about other's religioun, you wont find because i cant because me religioun doesnt allow me, because i know that people i discuss here are not people who spread lies in T.V, because i was learned to attack the one who attack me and not to attack the whole group, and if you go back to my posts you will see how much i love my prophet Jesus pbuh and how i defend him.