The Classics dead?

[jon1jt]

I heard a report about two months ago on National Public Radio that the introduction of the new 'The Penguin Classics Library Complete Collection' containing over 1000 copies of the greatest works of all time - on sale now at Amazon.com for $7989. - had only sold 10 sets worldwide. I bought one recently, so that's 11. I am proud to have purchased this treasure chest of books that will stay with me for a lifetime. It's interesting how most people spend thousands of dollars on new cars, vacations, can I include, plastic surgery?, but only 10 people in the country have bought this set. I'm not saying that everybody should run out and buy one. My question is, do you think this significantly low number of buyers is in any way indicative of the demise of Classics reading? I don't buy the argument that people don't have the cash, all the industries I mentioned above are booming, not to mention pop music and books.

[Logos]

No I don't think that low sales of this collection correlates to a demise in interests in the classics one bit.

So it's not much for each book, but I've probably got at least 200 of them already, so wouldn't want duplicates, and there's probably a lot of them I would have no interest in.

I think the low sales just boils down to the outlay of that much money for that many books all at once is just too overwhelming for most, unless they have the shelf-space for over half a ton of books. My buying and reading of books is a process I savour, although finding more room on my shelves isn't :)




Here's the link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0147503078/002-8606885-5915229?v=glance&n=283155)

[Petrarch's Love]

Wow, Jon1jt, that is quite a collection! I don't think the low number of people buying the complete set necessarily reflects a decline in the love of classics. I think many bibliophiles just tend to have a different approach to aquiring their libraries. As a grad. student I certainly don't have the funds at hand to get a collection like that all at once, but I'm also not sure if it would have occured to me to do so if I did have the money (not because it's a bad thing to have, just because I associate book buying with hours of happy browsing for specific titles at Powells or on Amazon.com or something--also it might have too many repeats of titles I now own).

All the same, as I reflected on the many books in my house I realized that I have accumulated a library that would probably have a similar monetary value to the Penguin series (possibly more, especially taking into account certain more valuable books like my first edition Wizard of Oz :)). So there are probably a fair number of people around with comparable collections to the Penguin series who have invested similar amounts in their libraries. They just aquired them more gradually.

Have fun reading through your collection. It sounds really great and you must be super excited to be getting all those books delivered (I dance around when I get one book delivered...I can't imagine 1000!). :banana:

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Very well put Logos. Exactly what I came here to say. So I'll go away again.

[Pensive]

Wow, Jon1jt, that is quite a collection! I don't think the low number of people buying the complete set necessarily reflects a decline in the love of classics.

You are very right. I couldn't have put it better by myself. :nod:

[jon1jt]

How's about I put it another way: Do you think the low sales number of the Penguin set supports other signs of a fast declining love of classics? Here are some excerpts on the topic for your edification, the first from a 2006 US News & World Report titled "Back to Classics":


"Many students are treating the bachelor's degree as job training, majoring in mechanical engineering or journalism--and avoiding subjects that won't directly help with their future careers. Both developments represent a departure from the classic definition of a liberal arts education, which sought to give students a firm intellectual grounding in core subjects. "As higher education is more and more seen as a license to become members of the middle class, fewer students are interested in liberal learning," says Stephen Balch, president of the traditionalist National Association of Scholars. "They're more interested in learning something of professional advantage.""

The decline. As higher education became more common, the emphasis on teaching classics fell away still more. Politics played a part. The radical ideals that swept college campuses in the 1960s saw course requirements as old-fashioned and classics written by much-maligned "dead white men" as counter to the goals of diversity and inclusiveness activists were striving for. The culture wars of the 1980s saw a revival of the debate, with students chanting "Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Culture's got to go" to support the revision of a western civilization requirement at Stanford.

The result of all this turmoil has been "educational balkanization," says Marc Katz, a professor at Scripps College in California. "You're left with a smorgasbord of courses that don't add up to anything. There needs to be some sort of common experience." At colleges across the country, the solution has been a return to the basics: core curriculum requirements that put all students on the same academic page. There are as many definitions of "core" as there are schools: Some, like Columbia, Scripps, and St. Johns College (with campuses in Maryland and New Mexico), require all students to take the same classes, often leaning heavily on classic works of western thought that have shaped modern democracies--the "great books" model. Others define core more broadly, requiring all students to take a certain number of classes in different disciplines.

Not everyone sees core requirements as the best way to go. At Brown University, the only curricular requirement is that students attempt 32 courses and pass 30. "Students learn best what they choose to study," argues Paul Armstrong, Brown's dean of the college."They're more active and involved learners than if they had to fill requirements." Faculty stay in close contact with students to make sure they're developing a coherent program. A few other schools, including Amherst, Smith, and Hampshire colleges, have adopted similar systems.
----------------

"The decline of classics has made us more trivial, less weighty, in our thinking, and certainly less wise." Simmons says the decline is in the figures: "In 1962, 700,000 American high-school students were taking Latin; by 1985, that number had dropped to 176,000. Consequently, classical studies in higher education have suffered. Out of more than a million BAs awarded in 1994, only six hundred went to classics majors. And these figures tell only a portion of the story."

[Petrarch's Love]

Well, I'll agree with you that if you're talking about classics in the sense of actual Classics departments (Latin&Greek stuff), the numbers have got to be pretty low. I have to admit, it might have been nice to learn Latin in highschool, but then I'm a PhD student in the Renaissance period and probably the only graduate from my highschool who would have had a real application for such knowledge, so I'm not advocating it be stuck back in the curriculum just for a few people like myself, who could pick it up in college anyway.

As for the decline in classics in the sense of canonical Western Lit., I think you're missing the importance of one crucial factor. To quote one of your sources "higher education became more common." This doesn't seem to be evidence of a decline of interest in classical works so much as a rise of interest in other things. There may be the exact same number of people as there always were interested in "classical" literature, but they are no longer the majority of the student population, and this has, as you point out, precipitated changes. Some of the changes to the traditional western curriculum have been very positive by opening our minds to a more complete and diverse view of history (and I say this as someone who specializes in the study of European Renaissance Lit). Some changes have not been as positive, of course, and there have been some disappointing compromises as classics and lit majors become a still smaller minority as compared with business majors, but I don't actually see any danger of Shakespeare being cut out of coursework too soon. I tend to agree that some sort of "core" curriculum is probably a good idea, and certainly that Western Lit. should be a part of that (especially since that's what I teach ;) ), but it shouldn't necessarily be the whole program. Of course I may have a slightly skewed view of things since I'm sitting at the institution that brought us the "great books" program, but it seems to me that classic literature isn't necessarily dying, just undergoing some redefining.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

"higher education became more common." has two distinct interpretations that I can see. I have a feeling that both apply to the changes that have taken place during the last few decades. ;)

[jon1jt]

Great points Petrarch. I suppose there is no way to quantify this issue, but surely the indicators are there that the classics are being read and considered less and less frequently today. When was the last time you actually heard a talking head/political pundit, actor, can I say professor outside the English Department, quote the Uphanishads (god forbid!), the Iliad, Dante, Augustine, or a poetical work, Dickinson, Shelly, Angelou? Even Robert Frost is out, once an American icon, consider.

Your point is well taken about the zero sum, ones gain, in this case, the burgeoning number of business majors may not necessarily be a loss in the actual number of people reading classics. While Shakespeare will go on being a required text in many English departments, I'm not sure about the other great books.

There is circumstantial evidence, perhaps, in the growing number of fairly recent books, like "Who Killed Homer?" "The Bonfire of the Humanities," chastising the wardens of higher education for emasculating liberal arts programs. Despite, there are less classics departments around today than ever.

I should at last, state my own bias in this topic. I graduated from one of "those" Great Books institutions---St. John's College in Maryland. If no one has heard of it, well, I won't be surprised. :goof:

[Virgil]

Great points Petrarch. I suppose there is no way to quantify this issue, but surely the indicators are there that the classics are being read and considered less and less frequently today. When was the last time you actually heard a talking head/political pundit, actor, can I say professor outside the English Department, quote the Uphanishads (god forbid!), the Iliad, Dante, Augustine, or a poetical work, Dickinson, Shelly, Angelou? Even Robert Frost is out, once an American icon, consider.

But I don't think talking heads ever talked about the Iliad, Dante, Augustine, or a poetical work, Dickinson, Shelly, or Angelou. I think Petrarch said it exactly as I see it. The glass is also half full. We are here at a wonderful site called Lit Net. When was something like this available in the past?

[jon1jt]

But I don't think talking heads ever talked about the Iliad, Dante, Augustine, or a poetical work, Dickinson, Shelly, or Angelou. I think Petrarch said it exactly as I see it. The glass is also half full. We are here at a wonderful site called Lit Net. When was something like this available in the past?

If the glass is half-full, and it may be who knows, don't you find it strange that there's not one politician, not one USSC Justice during nomination hearings, not a single modern president, who made reference to a great book? Can any of us here imagine George Bush quoting Julius Caesar or Hemingway during his State of the Union or famous September 11 Speech? No, it was (over)simply, "Either you're with us or with the terrorists."

I can think of only one living statesman in this regard who is a true exception, Cornel West of Princeton U. He routinely quotes Emerson, Nietzsche, Augustine, Chekov, Dostoyevsky, the New and Old Testaments regardless of whether he's discussing jazz or politics. He says wrestling with the great ideas is all part of that gut-wrenching process of self-discovery, what the classics are ultimately about.

The Internet, in my mind, as far as the classics go, is still a very private enterprise. "Communities" form, as you say, like this one, and that is a great thing. But, there is little deeply collective or lasting about them (I'm not talking about NGOs, that kind of grassroots thing). We can turn off our computers and there goes our communal nexus. What I'm talking about harks back to the Golden Age of Athens---Anaximander, Pericles, Sophocles, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle; not this golden age of computers (i.e. electronic commerce).

[Virgil]

If the glass is half-full, and it may be who knows, don't you find it strange that there's not one politician, not one USSC Justice during nomination hearings, not a single modern president, who made reference to a great book? Can any of us here imagine George Bush quoting Julius Caesar or Hemingway during his State of the Union or famous September 11 Speech? No, it was (over)simply, "Either you're with us or with the terrorists."

Why should they? The objective of a politician is to identify with the common man, not intellectual elites. Nixon used to call intellectual ellites pointy heads. When the common man starts quoting the Illiad, Dante, etc. then you will see politicians will too. You fail to realize that the common man does not view intellectuals as representing his interest.

[jon1jt]

I'm not so sure whether I agree there is as wide of a gap, intellectually speaking, between the "common man" and intellectual. If anything, there is a fierce anti-intellectual undercurrent in our society from many college graduates themselves, who go to college primarily to get a job and could care less about their Shakespeare, especially when they've secured a cushiony corporate job (another subject). Anyway, there was a poll taken once of recent college graduates that found that only 23% were able to correctly identify the names of the following famous American documents based on the first lines from each. (Can you?) :D

1. "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary..."
2. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,"
3. "Four score and seven years ago..."

So, I'm not convinced that the commoner is so far less intellectual, but your point is well taken.

As far as Nixon, you're right that he loathed intellectuals, yet there is much evidence in his own life - his humble roots and inability to pay tuition after Harvard accepted him in their program - that lend to that "pointy head" sentiment. I actually like Nixon the President and his contribution to the American Presidency has yet to be seriously studied and appreciated.

I should admit that there is ONE politician I'm aware of, who died in the last two years, who loved reading and regularly quoting the classics in his speeches---US Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia. His speeches were the true anomolies of the bunch. There are many more speeches he made like the one below in which he quotes the great books, all in the larger context of his appreciation for what history and great ideas teach us. He made one memorable speech on the floor of the senate in protest of the Iraq invasion, made right after a vote by the US Senate on a declaration of war resolution.
----------
"One of my favorite Roman statesman, Cicero, remarked, "To be ignorant of what happened before you were born is to remain always a child." There are too many Americans -- including many in public office -- who may be growing older in years, but remain immature in outlook and knowledge. The Founding Fathers have been replaced in the imagination of too many Americans by sports figures, rock-and-roll singers, and movie stars. Aspirations to serve our Nation have been displaced by a yearning for fleeting fame and big money.

Too many Americans today consider our Constitution to be nothing more than a relic of the past with little or no relevance to current problems. As a result, fundamental protections, indeed, the very things that continue to protect the rights and freedoms of every citizen, are at risk. One will not protect what one does not value. And one cannot value what one does not understand.

As one who has devoted his life to public service, I became alarmed at the lack of appreciation and understanding of the wisdom and sacrifice required to carefully craft a new nation. I became alarmed at the blatant ignorance among our youngsters concerning the events and people who hammered out the constitutional structure of this remarkable country.

It is because of the vital lessons that history offers, as well as its eloquence, that I, in more than a half century in the United States Congress, have advocated and stressed the teaching of history.

If any endeavor deserves more attention and support at the federal level, I believe it is the promotion of the study of our national heritage. That is why I have sought to provide the funding to promote the teaching of history in our public schools.

--

[Virgil]

Jon - There is a lot there to comment on. Too much. Let's just say I agree with you on most. As far as Nixon's comment, yes that was how he referred to intellectuals in a political setting, but he hired for his adminsitration lots of intellectuals, Pat Moynahan for instance. Even out of office he discussed lots of things with many intellectuals. His comment was political posturing. But he understood that the common man (even if he's a college graduate) is at best irritated by intellectuals. I consider myself an intellectual, and I get irritated by elitist.


If anything, there is a fierce anti-intellectual undercurrent in our society
My experience tells me that this is in all societies. Even ancient Greece. We don't know the totality of that culture; we just have an idealized version of it.

BTW, I think very highly of Cicero too.

[jon1jt]

Cicero is great, right on Virgil. I had to read his speeches in college, what an interesting time Cicero lived in and the impact he made on Roman civilization.

I agree about your comment about Ancient Greece. I'm quite sure there were a similar number of common folks who despised the sophists, prophets, and philosophers of the day. The Acropolis, for all its architectural sophistication, is the equivalent to and came out of the same grandiose ideas Americans had about themselves that led to the construction of the very symbolic "American" skyscraper.

Well said Virgil about Nixon. I feel the same about elitists, and there are tons of them around nowadays. What's interesting is that elitism takes on various forms. There are elitist intellectuals and there are elitist middle class types. Case in point: I grew up in the '80s and those days "YUPPIES" were the object of ridicule. Remember them? Today, everybody wants to be a YUPPY---aspiring to acquire the big name SUV, fancy townhouse on the West Side, vacationing in the Hamptons, New Age spas, etc., but we've conveniently dropped the derogatory term.

[Virgil]

I grew up in the '80s and those days "YUPPIES" were the object of ridicule. Remember them? Today, everybody wants to be a YUPPY---aspiring to acquire the big name SUV, fancy townhouse on the West Side, vacationing in the Hamptons, New Age spas, etc., but we've conveniently dropped the derogatory term.
What do you mean remember them. I am them. :lol: :lol: I have a SUV (actually that's my wife's; I drive a simple Saturn) and my own home, not fancy though and not on the West Side. Actually I live in Staten Island. I don't go for vacationing in the Hamptons, New Age spas, etc. I graduated college in 1985, so I may be a few years older than you. You can read a little about me in the "Introduce yourself and say hi" thread; I believe I'm on the first page.

[jon1jt]

We're practically neighbors! "It's a small world after all..."

1985, ah, what a nostalgic trip! I graduated high school in '86, 37, 42, what's the difference?! Once you reach 35, it's all the same!

So, you're one of "them," huh? Sounds like you have a nice lifestyle carved out for yourself in Staten Island, unlike my romantically dysfunctional life here in Jowsey! It is ironic how everybody desires yuppie status these days but how the term itself has conveniently dropped from the East Coast vernacular! Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with being a yuppie; I was once one too. It's interesting how values and roles change culturally.

No Hamptons, huh? I heard it's "the" spot, where all hot girlies go. Road trip to Sandy Hook anyone?!

I've never been to Staten Island, but I heard it's a great place. I'm over in East Rutherford, Meadowlands, land of the New York Giants, Devils, Nets, hey, we got all the losing teams, even your NY Jets! I admit, I'm a Jet fan.

Nice to meet ya neighbor!

[rachel]

hullo New Jersey!
I was thinking about you yesterday and must say you really smoke in the religious section.(If I am in your hood anytime soon I am going to either wear a bag over my head or a really big hoodie with absolutely no Christian symbolism in case you happen to be a past champion rifle shooter from the Olympics)
At any rate I was thinking that the unbelievable passion you put into your posts reminds me of a really really good rapper with one of those incredibly deep booming voices that need no microphone to be heard eight blocks away.
So.....when are you gonna put all your thoughts to rap and give us an url we can go to and listen and rock on?.......

[jon1jt]

hullo New Jersey!
I was thinking about you yesterday and must say you really smoke in the religious section.(If I am in your hood anytime soon I am going to either wear a bag over my head or a really big hoodie with absolutely no Christian symbolism in case you happen to be a past champion rifle shooter from the Olympics)
At any rate I was thinking that the unbelievable passion you put into your posts reminds me of a really really good rapper with one of those incredibly deep booming voices that need no microphone to be heard eight blocks away.
So.....when are you gonna put all your thoughts to rap and give us an url we can go to and listen and rock on?.......


Me? an up and coming Eminem, ya think? And to think that all this time I didn't even know I had rapper blood in me?! :lol: Actually, I used to listen to rap when it first came out and even have some old school stashed in my CD collection! :D You may even find me in some seedy Karaoke bar, three Guiness later, working Ton Loc's "Funky Cold Medina." :cool: :lol:

I assure you that you're safe should you come to Jersey because I don't believe in guns! I'm a pacifist and leave fighting to those who have all the answers in life. :D Even though my views on religion can be intense, I strive to be honest, which includes recognizing that "debating" about religion/god often entails "talking past each other," whether we like to admit it or not. Point out one person who has had an "A-Ha!" moment and consequently changed his/her viewpoint. Those exchanges reinforce our own views, most of the time, anyway. I give a lot of credit to people who have the passion to debate like that. I got seduced to post recently by the very interesting thread topics and let myself get carried away a bit. Glad you found some use for my work though! I'll let cha know when I got that URL up and running. ;)

[rachel]

yay< I can hardly wait bro! You sort of scared me and thrilled me when I was reading your posts. Scared me because you have that really scarey school principal sound to you when you get majorally ticked, rather like admin actually. And thrilled because listening to you really was like death rap without the death. And I am a pacifist too so that is why I was going to hide my face!

But I digress. About the topic, i wish that I could say in our little city that the classics are loved and quoted and talked about over coffee. Well perhaps they are at a couple of coffee houses but for the most part when I go to coles book store the classics are in a teeny tiny corner between Stephen King thrillers and gardening books. What is hot in this city seems to be the occult, health books by the ton and those I'm okay you're okay sort of stuff. At least the kid section is decent with a wide range of titles and you can get the penguin classics in paperback. But honestly they don't seem to move much and you can get them on sale nearly every time you go there for just a couple of dollars. It makes me feel sad because while I think it is perfectly fine to read all that other stuff I cannot understand why noone cares about the classics unless they feel that life is too fast paced and stressful and there is just no time to get into a deeper book. sigh......
Have you got a rap for that jon1jt(that is THE hardest name to write for some reason. You would fall down laughing at how I have tried spelling it.) :banana: