Reasons to believe in Christianity

[Christian]

'I believe that the sun has risen, not because I see it, but because by it I see everything else' C. S. Lewis

A belief in the God of the bible has a world to confirm it

[RobinHood3000]

I do apologize if I seem to be making light of a very serious topic, but McDonald's doesn't strike me as being diabolical in the least, nor does the number 13 or Starbuck's Coffee. McDonald's is so named because it was originally opened by the McDonald brothers, and the letter "M" has been in use for ages. Also, if you look up the older versions of the Starbuck's logo, it was originally a Siren with double fishtails.

I may return later once I've had some time to mull over your arguments.

[beer good]

Apple Computers? I always thought it was Bill Gates who was proof that there's a devil, but shows what I know...

[Christian]

Somehow Robinhood I think you will merely mull over your own arguments against me, the one's you have posed do not change the fact that the symbols are as they are.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Christian,

I think that you actually believe that that pile of twaddle (which even Dan Brown would consider too ridiculous to put in a book) will convince people to accept christianity! Don't you realise that all it does is give atheists a bloody good laugh, and make the better adjusted christians shake their heads in despair?

No one, that isn't in obvious need of therapy, is going to be swayed by such half-baked, ridiculous conspiracy theories.

And here's another one for you - Ronald Wilson Reagan - count the letters in each of those names! Notice anything? 6 - 6 - 6!!! The antichrist was among us - but he's dead now, so maybe we can all get back to living a normal life.

I have duly noted that 7th day adventists are to be avoided at all costs. Thanks for the warning.

Written (on an Apple computer (cue satanic laughter)) by XC

[Christian]

Honestly XC portrayed in films are the ideologies and doctrines of Freemasons and Jesuits does that not lend credibility to their having control?

View the films for yourself, the evidence is clear. Incidentally I mentioned nothing of names adding up to numbers. Besides that point is relative in that it supports a vast amount of other evidences reciprocating the support.

Please XC don't be so dismissive on the grounds that it sounds outrageous in comparison to the supposed general understanding, truth is more important than the facts.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Are you really as mad as you seem christian? Or are you really an atheist, stirring the pot? I can't decide.

It seems strange to me, that half of your "reasons for believing in christianity" are actually reasons not to believe in a different form of christianity than your own - ie. Roman catholicism.

I know there are a lot of catholics in this forum and, frankly, your comments are a lot more antagonistic towards them than anything I, as an atheist, have ever posted.

[Logos]

If you are going to post to this part of the forums, you must be willing to subject yourself to other members points of views and opinions, which may not agree with yours.

[Whifflingpin]

"I do apologize if I seem to be making light of a very serious topic, but McDonald's doesn't strike me as being diabolical in the least,"

Oh dammit. That was the only bit that made any sense to me! No business could do that well unless the owner had sold his soul to the devil.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

"I do apologize if I seem to be making light of a very serious topic, but McDonald's doesn't strike me as being diabolical in the least,"

Oh dammit. That was the only bit that made any sense to me! No business could do that well unless the owner had sold his soul to the devil.

Pull off the clown's mask and see those horns! :nod:

[RobinHood3000]

If you're going to seek out the Anti-Christ, why start with Ronald McDonald? Michael Jackson is far creepier...

[Xamonas Chegwe]

If you're going to seek out the Anti-Christ, why start with Ronald McDonald? Michael Jackson is far creepier...

Are they two different people? Well I never...

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Christian,

If those points solidify your belief in the Bible and God, I really don't want to know what it's based on. In any case, there are different degrees of wayward individuals. I, like XC, can't figure out what the hell you are. You can't be atheist because you're a theophile, and yet your reasoning for doing so is outrageous.

Oh, Logos...I think you need to take a nice black marker and redifine the line between disrespect and deserved ridecule. Because in this case I think it's the latter, and if Christan feels like posting such far-fetched theories he should get the opinion of the members here. Hell, he didn't post for no one to respond.

[Logos]

Oh, Logos...I think you need to take a nice black marker and redifine the line between disrespect and deserved ridecule. Because in this case I think it's the latter, and if Christan feels like posting such far-fetched theories he should get the opinion of the members here. Hell, he didn't post for no one to respond.

Christian isn't the first person to mention these theories, they've been circulating for ages. I would hope that people who contribute here are expecting to engage in healthy debate or discussion since that is one of the definitions of "forum".

There is no marker fine enough to make wholesale rules about what is acceptable opinion, that is subject for us lowly Mods to try to figure out on an as-needed basis.

[Whifflingpin]

"If you're going to seek out the Anti-Christ, why start with Ronald McDonald? Michael Jackson is far creepier..."

No - creepy is not the Antichrist: here is his voice - "love and peace which I had never felt before which made me want to do all the chores and help people where ever I could with great joy in doing it," - justifying a post full of hatred for Freemasons, Roman Catholics, film makers, coffee outlets, computer manufacturers, fast food sellers, Wicca devotees, and the Reserve Bank.

There was one true statement in Christian's post - "Sun worship is not some ignorant pagan ritual but is actually a sophisticated form of worship" Of all the religious symbols, the sun is arguably the most potent and most rational. It stands for life and light and goodness, opposed to death, darkness and evil.

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[Doctor Boogaloo]

Riveting stuff. Utter bollocks of course, much like the 'facts' in Dan Brown's highly researched (ie. plagiarized) novel.
It also seems that you've given more weight to a disbelief in Christianity than the other way around. But I salute your bulldog passion and I thank you for the entertainment.
(By the way, most Canadians worship the sun. We do this because we only see it four months out of twelve.)

[Christian]

I hope no one will interpret my silence as a sign of a subdued advocate for Christianity

This thread exemplifies the fact that you don't have to know anything about a topic in order to argue about it, so why would I bandy and quibble with those who do not give a theme due consideration before denouncing it.

Remember the words of Socrates

"If thou continuest to take delight in idle argumentation, thou mayest be qualified to combat with the sophists, but never know how to love" or be loved.

The films are enough to demonstrate that there is control in Hollywood and indeed lends credibility to the other reasons which I placed forth, there is plenty of evidence for those who would seek it out. "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you"

Seek the information from links I have given and from your own investigation and you shall run to God's door crying "Sanctuary Sanctuary!" and it shall be opened unto you with open arms and any other that does the same, the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan is what we live every day and is all around us, symbols of sun worship, satan worship and all that he represents are everywhere!

There are many more reasons than what I have placed across here on which to base your belief on Christianity The Bible itself is the greatest. Written over a period of 1600 years by 40 separate authors and not once does it contradict itself! Type in the Old Testament meets Anti-Type in the New, prophecy has revealed the world time and time again before it happened and the reliabilty of the Old Testament scriptures, copied from previous scriptures at least 150 years before Christ, is validated by the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Qu'ran in 1947 which is now held at the Jewish National Museum. Archaeological finds show hieroglyphs illustrating the dream of pharoah in Josephs time(the seven thin and the seven fat calfs) pictures can be shown and the location can be given for this as one of our ministers has been there personally. The genealogy of the Pharoahs in Moses's time represent clearly the story of The Bible that the first born died and that pharoah was killed in the red sea and also that Moses's step mother the daughter of pharoah changed their religion to the worship of the one God which brought about the desecration of her tomb and the reversion of the people to the old religion of the sun.

There is much much more to those who would seek it, The sanctuary service of the Hebrews for example, Christ fulfilled every point of it, but I will not argue with those who bicker and squabble and refuse to see.

I leave this post to those of an open mind and leave it also for "entertainment" to those of a closed mind

We are all part of this together and truth is paramount, I know I have found it, as I said before, no person on this earth can convince me that the God of The Bible does not exist, I know he does for I have tested his promises and have received of him physically, spiritually and emotionally time and time again. He desires that you do the same, please try, I promise he will show you that he lives and desires for you to live also.

My last post

Christian

P.S Whifflingpin : I expressly stated that individuals of a following or a particular understanding(such as here) are not and never will be disliked, and that it is the doctrines and teachings which lead such people astray that is detested. Please do not make false accusations.

[Whifflingpin]

MeaCulpa.

I have a question. Your quotation from Paul's letter to the christians at Thessalonika is part of a passage in which he says do not think that the day of the Lord is at hand until the son of perdition etc appears. There have been Popes ever since Paul's friend and colleague, Peter, arrived in Rome. So which Pope is it whom you consider to be the sign that the last days are here?

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[Orionsbelt]

I am so sorry that you are so confused. Symbols can be picked up and dropped off like hats. For example, the symbol of the 7 day church is the cross and fire, fire consumption, satan consumes the cross, the symbol of light, daylight, the sun, sun worship?

Do you see that you have become everything that you have claimed to dislike?

[RobinHood3000]

There are many more reasons than what I have placed across here on which to base your belief on Christianity The Bible itself is the greatest. Written over a period of 1600 years by 40 separate authors and not once does it contradict itself!
There are a number of scholars who would be more than happy to contest this point.

[chmpman]

The fact that a religious text does not contradict itself is irrelevant to it's infallibility. The true tests lies in if it can be found to contradict what science and observation show reality to be.

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo alaikom,
BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM

Are u sure there is no contraddictions in bible????

Alhamdo LILLAH
Salam

[blp]

Respect to Christian for taking the time to tell us about his interesting beliefs. I'd very much like to believe that Starbucks and McDonald's are the work of the devil and, just to back up the claim a little more, M is also the thirteenth letter of the alphabet - or did you mention that already, Christian? A lot to take in.

Yes, I find it all incredibly seductive and comforting. The world does suck, our leaders are rotten and it's hard to explain except by imagining that they've all sold their souls to the devil. Then they all claim to be devout Christians and, in doing so, entirely discredit Christianity in the eyes of right thinking people everywhere. It all fits! And I'll never watch a Hollywood film the same way again. I guess now all I have to do is start a corporation, brand it with a thinly disguised pagan power symbol and make a billion dollars.

Just kidding, Christian. I don't really know what else to say except that, much as I might like to go along with lots of this, I can't in honesty accept a belief system that opposes abortion or the teaching of evolution. Or that posits the existence of a god, for that matter. Also, I'm reliably informed by a Christian source that 666 is just a misreading of a Hebrew text meaning 'Nero Ceasar'. But thanks for sharing, seriously.

[Kashkin]

Hey look! Linky (http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html)

An internet Google search on "Satan Claus" [not Santa Claus – but SATAN Claus] found over 1,700 hits! Obviously, there are many that tie the two together.
Obviously...
Honestly, are these things jokes?

[Logos]

Please do not make any more disrespectful comments towards other members or their faith.

[Miss Darcy]

Apple Computers - Has a bitten apple(the apple of Adam and Eve, perhaps?) it could have been a regular apple but it seems to be more significant for them to have a bitten apple

I knew it. *tries hard not to smile*

[Green Lady]

Seek the information from links I have given and from your own investigation and you shall run to God's door crying "Sanctuary Sanctuary!" and it shall be opened unto you with open arms and any other that does the same, the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan is what we live every day and is all around us, symbols of sun worship, satan worship and all that he represents are everywhere!



*shiver* Did anyone else feel the temperature lower and a strong unsettling feeling wash over them when they read this paragraph?

A reminder, the "Great Controversy" as you call it between Christ and Satan being symbolized in everything, even movies and books is sometimes only there because you want it to be there. Sometimes, the parallel is unintentional and is not meant to be delved deeper into but to merely be enjoyed.

A few days ago, my father mentioned to me an uncle that apparently cracked under pressure and started seeing gospel doctrine in everything.

[Theshizznigg]

Firstly I'd like to state that I am very knowledgable about conspiracy theory, yet I cannot understand Christan's title.
These are not reasons, they are add ons, theorys, and symbolisms, thus you should have named it Christian Conspiarcy Theories, instead of reasons to become a Christian.
While all of this is facinating, ( I would have though Macdonalds was a front for Communism in America,) You are forgetting something Christian.
If you become a Christian because you believe that starbucks is a front for the elder gods, then you are not really being a Christian are you, because your putting study into demonology before your actual faith.
While study is good, you must not get so wraped up in things that you forget the really important thing, and that is to love.

To be a Christian you need only believe, that there is a God who loves you, Christ was his son, and the saviour of mankind, and that he died for your sake, and if you believe in him, then he will, as he said "Save you from eternal damnation."

As for the existence of demonic powers in society, of course they exist, haven't any of you ever read the Necromonicon, or the bible, in Genesis, the Nephelim, sons of demons and woman, heroes of old, men of reknowned.

You need only remember Christian that you have nothing to fear from any of them, because Christ will remember you, no matter what happens.
Even if beanie babies come alive, and start to hunt us in the street.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Thzng,

Until you started claiming that demons and such actually exist, I was nodding along with you there. If even you find christian's views extreme, they really must be!

But isn't MacDonalds a front for the Martians? Or was it the Freemasons? Or the CIA? Or...

[RobinHood3000]

I think the Beanie Baby crack established that he/she was being sarcastic. Or am I the mistaken one?

[Chava]

I think it would be appropriate to say, that a re-evaluation of paradigms is in need here.

[blp]

Hey look! Linky (http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html)

That link is gobsmacking. The author begins by talking about how Satan is like a lion who preys on the most vulnerable members of society, then, without batting an eyelid, goes on to say how wonderfully receptive children under the age of 13 are to gospel teaching. There's a quote from another source saying that if a child hasn't been 'saved' at 13, they probably never will be - couldn't possibly be because their rational faculties have developed too far for them to be 'vulnerable' could it?

[Whifflingpin]

"Hey look! Linky"

Well - having read that article, I think I'd rather believe in Father Christmas than in most other religions. No-one ever went to war for Father Christmas, or burnt people for witchcraft in his name, or became suicide bombers to further his cause; no council of Clausians ever proclaimed that the Santa with the belt is the only true Santa, and that followers of the Santa in the long coat should be regarded as heretics and schismatics. If Santa Claus is divine, then let his reign come soon, say I. Roll on the Age of Good Children and the Giving of Presents - Yay! Yay! and Ho Ho Ho!

.

[blp]

You're right. I'm well past the age of 13, but this sounds excellent to me. Where do I sign - in blood if necessary?

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Another convert here. Blessed be Santa and his holy prophet, the tooth fairy.

Hmmm. I just thought... You're not one of those heretics that doesn't accept the Book of Teeth as a true part of the holy Clausian scriptures are you? Because if you are, you should be burnt at the stake like the heathen scum that you are!!

[Whifflingpin]

Here we are - only three members and already our faith is drenched in blood and split by controversy.
I cast your heresy in your Teeth, sir. Never shall the Tooth Fairy profane the sacred Grotto. Santa's only true helpers are named in holy writ - "Now, Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen! On, Comet! on Cupid! on, Donner and Blitzen!" No mention of the false Tooth Fairy.

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[beer good]

Can we at least agree to stone the heretics who believe Jerry Garcia to be an avatar of the holy Santa?

[Whifflingpin]

Who is Jerry Garcia?

.

[RobinHood3000]

Deceased (presumably) member of the Grateful Dead.

[Green Lady]

The thing they said about anyone over 13 can't be saved is rubbish. It's just harder for someone to change their beliefs at an older age because what they've learned all their lives is so set into their countenance that it's hard to change. It's like trying to mold dried play-doh. It's hard to do, but with work it can be formed differently in time. They say that when someone is converted later in their years (and I mean truely converted, devoted to their new religion) they can be more spiritual than one that grew up with the teachings of that religion. That's because of the work it took for them to be changed of heart and mind.

Anyways, I don't see any evilness in Santa Claus. People pervert Santa in things like that weird movie called Bad Santa or something, but the origional image of St. Nick is in no way evil. So, you've got another member of the St. Nick Church. Throw the yule log in the fire and let's start our prayer around the christmas tree!

[beer good]

Who is Jerry Garcia?
http://www.myguitarsolo.com/Players/JerryGarcia.jpg

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Deceased (presumably) member of the Grateful Dead.

Dead is he? Well I hope he's grateful!

(Sorry, it's an old one, but I like it.) :lol: :lol:

Bad Santa? Hmmm... You've got a good point Green Lady.

I hearby establish the first church of Bad Santa (hallowed be his booze and obscenity). Any converts?

[Whifflingpin]

http://www.myguitarsolo.com/Players/JerryGarcia.jpg

Omigod - take off his glasses and trim his hair and he'd look just like me - Am I an avatar of Gerry Garcia?

.

[Kashkin]

I hearby establish the first church of Bad Santa (hallowed be his booze and obscenity). Any converts?
I'd take that over anything else.
He was shot for his (and our) sins. But he lived, because he's way cool.

[blp]

Here we are - only three members and already our faith is drenched in blood and split by controversy.
I cast your heresy in your Teeth, sir. Never shall the Tooth Fairy profane the sacred Grotto. Santa's only true helpers are named in holy writ - "Now, Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen! On, Comet! on Cupid! on, Donner and Blitzen!" No mention of the false Tooth Fairy.

.

Or of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer, which really worries me.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Or of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer, which really worries me.

Many Clausian scholars believe that Rudolph was merely a legend and has no actual existence in the grotto. There is a theory that he was only incorporated into the faith in the 3rd century following contact with the Visigoths, whose saga of Rytthilfth Roota-Noota seemed consistent with Clausian belief to the early Santans.

[emily655321]

Oh, damn, Bad Santa is a great movie. But that's all I have to say. There's no way I'm touching this one. :)

[blp]

Many Clausian scholars believe that Rudolph was merely a legend and has no actual existence in the grotto. There is a theory that he was only incorporated into the faith in the 3rd century following contact with the Visigoths, whose saga of Rytthilfth Roota-Noota seemed consistent with Clausian belief to the early Santans.

But...surely you can only buy into the Rytthilfth Roota-Noota theory if you discount the references to a Rodolophsemon in the Dead Tundra Scrolls.

I'm sorry, but I just know - I can't explain how, I just know in my heart - that Rudolph with his nose so bright guided the sleigh that night. He's guiding my sleigh still.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

But...surely you can only buy into the Rytthilfth Roota-Noota theory if you discount the references to a Rodolophsemon in the Dead Tundra Scrolls.

I'm sorry, but I just know - I can't explain how, I just know in my heart - that Rudolph with his nose so bright guided the sleigh that night. He's guiding my sleigh still.

I honestly can't believe that there are still people in this modern age that really believe in the Rudolph falacy. The dead tundra scrolls were proven to be 11th century fakes by carbon-dating, radioactive-dating and speed-dating; so how can you insist upon them as evidence.

And it's well documented that the reference to a 'red nose' attributed to Rodolphsemon is actually a mis-translation of the ancient Harpic word, "Phnyorple" (meaning "stupid" or "lazy") and which closely resembles the phrase, "Phlin yi orpla" ("nose of red") in the Harpic script.

Further more. Why is there no other mention of a foggy night in the holy scriptures? Are we to assume that it had never happened before? And how did the other reindeer cope then without Rudolph? This is a classic example of heretics distorting the facts to suit their own ends.

Not that it matters, I am a BadSantan now. We don't believe in reindeer - just Jack D.

[jon1jt]

I don't want to respond directly to Christian's response here and join in the "forum," for just this instant; I want to share what I felt like doing after I read it. I felt like throwing myself off a very tall building. :banana:

[Christian]

I made an admission that my post may be sporadic and disjointed as the topics considered are vast, further down I made a request for those who would consider to consider further and study. This study with the links given would have shown that in fact all the examples are intertwined and intrinsically locked into an overall theme of "The Great Controversy"

But I can give an extension to one example already given

The US ONE DOLLAR BILL

I would recommend that you go perhaps to wikipedia.org and examine the general and published governmental understanding of the details upon this one dollar bill with the one's of which I will lay forth, I believe the symbology has deeper significance than their interpretation.

The Pyramid -

The right triangle which forms the face of the pyramid has sides consisting of 5, 12 and 13 units in length, illustrating one of Freemasonry's best known symbols, the 47th problem of Euclid

This same pyramid(A 13 stepped formation) can be found in Washington D.C, *13* blocks from the White house, at the House of the Temple on Northwest 16th Street which is the Supreme Council of Scottish Rite Masonry, coincidence? probably not.

If you connect up the White House, the House of the Temple and one other obvious masonic landmark, the Washington monument, you'll find another Euclidian triangle.

The 13 levels on the pyramid can be interpreted as 13 sets of 13 years which in total would make 169 years. From 1776 this would bring us to 1945, the United Nations was chartered in 1945. This is no doubt one means of which to achieve universal political if not religious unity.

"The Bush (Sr) Administration, would like to make the U.N. a cornerstone of its plans to construct a New World Order." - Time Magazine, September 17, 1990 (Check the Time archives)

This should satisfy one that there is no coincidence that freemasonry symbology and architecture are found in the planning of the first government both in currency and landscape. So if their control and organization of the separate items described is so meticulous and these individuals were of authority regarding state matters, is it unreasonable to assume that they had and have a political agenda and that governmental affairs have a similar type of scrupulous and purposeful control?

Do you think it's a coincidence that the UN logo displays the same symbology as that of Isis and Horus(The cirlce in the halfmoon). It also depicts the sign of victory(the Laurel) with 13 leaves to either side and there are 33 sections to the inner emblem which is the highest masonic degree.

For those that claim that understanding the evilness of the world is not sufficient to justify a search for that which is good and that which can save one from the world this is for you:

When one believes in Jesus Christ it is only natural to believe also that at this present moment we are in a world controlled by Satan, as this is what The Bible informs us of, then it naturally follows that what The Bible says of satan's character must also have bearing upon the world, as it is his dominion and one's dominion is reflective of oneself. So if one were to see the world in satan's possession then consequently the existence of Jesus and the validity of his sayings is also a logical conclusion as it is from The Bible that we extract this information.

[Evergreenleaf]

For those that claim that understanding the evilness of the world is not sufficient to justify a search for that which is good and that which can save one from the world this is for you:

When one believes in Jesus Christ it is only natural to believe also that at this present moment we are in a world controlled by Satan, as this is what The Bible informs us of, then it naturally follows that what The Bible says of satan's character must also have bearing upon the world, as it is his dominion and one's dominion is reflective of oneself. So if one were to see the world in satan's possession then consequently the existence of Jesus and the validity of his sayings is also a logical conclusion as it is from The Bible that we extract this information.
But what one doesn't believe in anything the Bible says? Just throwing that out there.

[EDIT: Oops, I didn't know that this one posted. Ignore this, the next one is right.]


For those that claim that understanding the evilness of the world is not sufficient to justify a search for that which is good and that which can save one from the world this is for you:

When one believes in Jesus Christ it is only natural to believe also that at this present moment we are in a world controlled by Satan, as this is what The Bible informs us of, then it naturally follows that what The Bible says of satan's character must also have bearing upon the world, as it is his dominion and one's dominion is reflective of oneself. So if one were to see the world in satan's possession then consequently the existence of Jesus and the validity of his sayings is also a logical conclusion as it is from The Bible that we extract this information.
But what if one doesn't believe in anything the Bible says? Just throwing that out there.

[Christian]

The Trojan Horse of Christianity

What does The Bible say of the Catholic Church?

The prestigious holding of which the Catholic Church has upon this earth knew it's beginning with the Roman Empire under the Emperor Justinian(483-565) which bestowed upon the pope the condition of "Highest Ecclesiastical Authority".

Babylon 605 BC - 539 BC (Symbolised in The Book of Daniel Chapter 7 as a Lion)
Medo-Persia 539 BC - 331 BC (A Bear)
Greece 331 BC - 168 BC (A Leopard)
Rome 168 BC - 476 AD (A dreadful beast with teeth of iron) (Note this for further down)

Biblically the Catholic Church has a political ancestor with Babylon and religiously also as just as Babylon worshipped the sun(Shamash) so too does the Catholic Church

This progression and development was prophecied clearly in the Book of Daniel in the Bible

In The Bible, prophecies are generally portrayed with symbols that can be understood by us although its meaning may not be apparent at first, they are given so that when we see it coming to pass we know that God has foretold it. Symbols are also explained and defined by The Bible itself, so that the eager student may come to understand it's meaning.

"But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" Mark 13:23

Daniel and many other Jews were in captivity in Babylon when he wrote his book and Babylon is a symbol for captivity due to this. And just as the Egyptian religion was a counterfeit of Israelites in Moses's time so to was Babylon in the time of Daniel, therefore Babylon is also a symbol of confusion.

In Revelation the Antichrist power foreseen by Daniel is denoted with the name of Babylon

"And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth" Rev 17:5

The people that follow God have always been likened unto a woman and the woman that stands on the moon in Revelation represents the church(Rev 12:1) just as the woman on the beast represents the anti-church(As she is the exact opposite to the true church).

"and here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth" Rev 17:9

The Catholic Church sits upon seven hills

The Seven Hills of Rome are the Cermalus, Cispius, Fagutal, Oppius, Palatium, Sucusa, and Velia

The Bible shows that the beast that wars with the saints(Christians) is the consummation of all four empires in this verse (Remember the symbols for the different empires above)

"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard(Greece)and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Medo-Persia) and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Babylon) and the dragon(Rome and Satan) gave him his power(Justinian), and his seat, and great authority" Rev 13:2

- The Pope - The pope was prophecied in Daniel 7 and 8(The little horn) and he was also mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 "..the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he has God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"

My perspective of not looking to the individuals but to the doctrines of which their system advocates is derived from The Bible for it does the same, it is the system that is labeled so, it just so happens that the pope is the chief representative of this establishment. The Catholic Church claims that the pontiff holds the position described in Thessalonians, this is what merits his title of Anti-Christ(Anti being "in place of" and "against")

Evergreenleaf

The reasoning of that post is for people who don't believe in The Bible

If one believes in The Bible then one believes in what The Bible says of the world

If one believes in what The Bible says of the world then one believes in The Bible

My intention is to show that the world is as The Bible says it is

[Evergreenleaf]

Biblically the Catholic Church has a political ancestor with Babylon and religiously also as just as Babylon worshipped the sun(Shamash) so too does the Catholic Church
Wait a minute. I used to be Catholic, and I know for a fact that the Catholic Church only worships God. The Trinity, sure. But the sun? I would categorize that as a false god or an idol; the church would not condone sun-worship.

[kilted exile]

Christian, I just been reading your sectarian ramblings, and got thinking. Have you ever heard of the Rev. Ian Paisley?

[Christian]

The post regarding the Catholic Church describes one beast in Revelation, there is another mentioned with it.

The lamb that speaks like a dragon, this is understood by Seventh Day Adventists to be America because it rises out of the earth(few people) as a lamb(America was founded in part by pilgrims seeking asylum from the Catholic Church), there is more evidence to substantiate this also. The Bible is the best.

The Lamb will and is today speaking like a dragon, supporting the Catholic Church

The bible states that the lamb will give it's power to the first beast(Catholic Church) who's wound was healed. 1798 - Napolean Bonaparte recognized the threat of the Catholic Church and General Berthier was sent to Italy to dethrone the pope, consequently leaving the Catholic Church without power for some time. (This is the Wound) In the interest of curiosity the wound was healed by the The Lateran Concordat of 1929 which re-established the political power and diplomatic standing of the Catholic Church

Why do I speak of these two?

The Dragon is the first beast the Lamb is the second, the Lamb shall give his power to the first

I have outlined two world powers here in this post

The Catholic Church is busily preoccupied with bringing all religions together under one banner just as the World Conspirators are in bringing all nations under the same. Once this is achieved we will know, and indeed in some form are aware of now, a fully fledged bureaucratic dictatorship. I believe that the Catholic Church is the source of the World Conspirators and that they are merely one in the same complimenting and working for the Catholic Church's intentions and that this is the means by which the beast will make it's last war with the saints. It is shown in The Bible that America shall support the Catholic Church and indeed we see that today.

Disbelief and wilful ignorance will not make something wrong!

I apoligize for placing my views across in a somewhat unecessary dogmatic tone, it is simply passion that stirs me.

But please this is the way the world is, satan controls the world but he cannot control you when you accept Jesus Christ. Christianity is the largest most collosal occurence the world has ever known, surely there must be something to that.

I cannot force you to believe but please find out for yourself, don't look to the messengers but look to the message!

Evergreenleaf - Look to my post further back that evidences this

Irish anti-catholicism is quite different to the view I am placing across

I have said it before

I am not against people but against systems

[RobinHood3000]

You should know, the Puritans (a portion of the original Pilgrims) were fleeing the Church of England, not Catholicism per se.

Hmm...you know, if you turn the McDonald's logo sideways, it also looks like a B. What does that stand for? Baal? Beelzebub? Bible? Bob Saget?

I don't believe in God, and hence cannot believe in Satan. Does that make me more or less evil?

[Christian]

Robin Hood

The important thing is that when you do turn the McDonalds sign to the right side you have 13 and that M is the 13th letter in the alphabet, this is probably not coincidence

They were seeking religious freedom and are likened unto a lamb this is the important fact and symbol

If you read this post with an objective outlook then you will believe in God

[kilted exile]

But why is turning it to the right to make a 13 (I only see it making a 3 by the way) the correct way to turn it, since the symbol of the anti-christ is an upturned cross, when looking for meanings in other symbols should we not turn them all upside down. This leads to my main point, if you turn the M upside down you get a W, now who could that refer to I wonder.

[Christian]

The word "McDonalds", that runs through the yellow M, is the one of the thirteen

[Kashkin]

"13 and that M is the 13th letter in the alphabet, this is probably not coincidence"
Considering our numeric system is Arabic, and our alphabet, based on Greek...
I'm pretty sure it is a coincidence. What's so bad about the number 13 anyway?

[jon1jt]

Yea, I've heard of Paisley, the right wing nut job from Ireland, the fool who stands in the way of building peace and order between the longstanding christian-protestant dispute. The man is a jackars.

christian, what is your fetish with the catholic church?? And can I say without offending you, your ideas are all over the place, I can't make head or tail of what you're saying, other than your zany theory of some world conspiracy based on hidden biblical symbols?? Do I have it right? If I'm wrong I apologize. You can find symbolism in just about anything with a human signature on it. Take a look at the interpretations out there on that silly Little Red Riding Hood story. At the end of the day, that's your interpretation. My question to you is, Why did you emphasize the New Testament in your analysis and not the Old, or other biblical texts? Or did I miss it? I mean, why not the Uphanishads, the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, heck, might as well check out the Nag Hammadi sources too, why leave them out? Oh, they weren't "canonized," is that it?

My interpretation of the bible, of all "religious texts," is that they are full of cute myths, some based on real life events and people, some with even interesting ideas, which BECOMES Text, big "T," that whacky people take as "the Word,"

There is a fantastic article in one of last year's American Scholar issues, truly one of a kind, I'll find it if any one is interested, because the author boldly stated in print what nobody dares to even think today, and that is, the secular world and especially the scientific community, need to begin seriously and passionately speaking out against the very NOTION of religion and its "text" as tied to god's handiwork. We, the secular, become handmaidens of religious fanaticism, despite our distancing, because the absurd is at the center of this tolerant pandering that we often eagerly participate in, as I am guilty of now somewhat, despite our ardent beliefs against Religion, big "R."

I live in a world of tables and chairs. I live in a world I constantly question. In my world of tables and chairs, the tables and chairs are pliable, they break if somebody or something is too heavy for them to hold. And if the weight of an idea is heavy enough to shatter my tables and chairs, I'll change my perspective. But I'm not taking any Leap of Faith any time soon.

Why we're willing to just let Christian, for example, go off on a tangent and concoct his theory, which, as everyone here knows, is truly OUTRAGEOUS, is beyond me. Now, one may say that I should respond more dignified via dialogue with Christian, that I ought to either address his claims head one or refrain. And I am addressing his claims, by not DIRECTLY acknowledging the smut he put up there---that is, to the extent I'm going to critique the verses he selected or the content, because the content is theo-centric, or again, Religious, big R. This religiosity is garbage, and the text he refers to is the same, and there's more common sense to back up this claim than there is to support the nonsensical at the base of his thread.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

::looks into crystal ball::.........::sees jon1jt censored and thread locked::...::thinks if this might actually be the future::......nahhhh. I KNOW Logos wouldn't be so narrow minded as to lock the thread over opinions expressed in the above response. Surely, more reason exists here than that!

Hey jon....I like the way you write. Ruthless, yet tactful. VERY cool. Send me a PM, maybe we could discuss literary warfare...hahaha.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Just in case Jon does get censored (and I hope not), I'd like to say that he's dead right and he put his point across very well indeed.

And I'm still not convinced that christian isn't just having a laugh at our expense - nobody could really be that convinced by such crap, surely? If you are winding us all up christian, you've done a great job but it's time to drop the mask and laugh with us; if you're not winding us up, it's probably time for you to take the pills.

[Scheherazade]

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.

-George Bernard Shaw

[Christian]

XC : You know I am not and you know I will not

Jon1jt:

Daniel is from the Old Testament

We live in an entirely symbolic world my friend, all that you sense is a symbol of what you understand and all that you understand is a symbol of what you have sensed. So saying that you can place interpretation to anything is absolutely true, but it doesn't really disprove anything. The important point is the relevance and pertinence a symbolic relation has to reality(I think mine is fairly well substantiated).

Why would I source other religious texts when my standpoint is relating The Biblical claims of the world. It's not that other religious texts are not canonized, it's simply that they have no relevance.

Also religion or rather Christianity will never disappear, it is the pivotal issue of all time as the human race has known it and is reaching it's climax.

Those of whom do not believe in Christianity are often those that know the least regarding it. How much do you know of Christianity ?

Do you know of Parallels in The Bible?
Do you understand Biblical Type and Antitype?
Do you know the prophecies of Isaiah regarding Jesus?
Do you know the prophecies of Daniel referencing history from his time to ours?
Do you know the prophecies of Revelation detailing the history from Jesus' time to our own and further?
Do you know of the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Qu'mran which date the scriptures far into BC?
Have you considered any of my points or sought to test any of them to prove their validity or error?

I do not claim to know everything concerning The Bible, but what I have understood has been sufficient enough to demask the world

[jon1jt]

::looks into crystal ball::.........::sees jon1jt censored and thread locked::...::thinks if this might actually be the future::......nahhhh. I KNOW Logos wouldn't be so narrow minded as to lock the thread over opinions expressed in the above response. Surely, more reason exists here than that!

Hey jon....I like the way you write. Ruthless, yet tactful. VERY cool. Send me a PM, maybe we could discuss literary warfare...hahaha.

LOL! Who knows if this'll get locked, I hope not for the sake of free speech, anyway. So you like the way I write? lol! C'mon, that there is a diatribe! I admit that I went out of my way to tone it down to avoid facing Division of Censor! I'll PM ya---would love to chat literary whatever witch-a! :thumbs_up


Also religion or rather Christianity will never disappear, it is the pivotal issue of all time as the human race has known it and is reaching it's climax.

Those of whom do not believe in Christianity are often those that know the least regarding it. How much do you know of Christianity ?

Do you know of Parallels in The Bible?
Do you understand Biblical Type and Antitype?
Do you know the prophecies of Isaiah regarding Jesus?
Do you know the prophecies of Daniel referencing history from his time to ours?
Do you know the prophecies of Revelation detailing the history from Jesus' time to our own and further?
Do you know of the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Qu'mran which date the scriptures far into BC?
Have you considered any of my points or sought to test any of them to prove their validity or error?

Listen, I'll write more later. For now, look what you're asking me to do. The operative word is "disprove." I told you that I'm not going to entertain the supposition of truth in that doctrine, period. Now, you asked me what I know about the bible. I went to a catholic grammar and high school and had the stuff shoved down my throat. I was an altar boy and grew up across the street from the church. My learning experience in the catholic setting was actually very positive and instilled the discipline for learning I've carried with me. My experience of the bible is that I've read it several times, critically in college. So I've deliberated it's tenets and categorically reject its dogma. I have some familiarity with the questions you asked, but to be honest, I would need the aid of the books to answer them sufficiently. I've read the Nag Hammadi texts, Gnostical sources, and other Eastern texts I mentioned and find more attractive for their openness, some of it. I'm extremely familiar with these texts either. My question is, have you read them?

"Those of whom do not believe in Christianity are often those that know the least regarding it. How much do you know of Christianity?"

That's a pretty presumptuous thing to say, don't you think? So, in other words, if we read the bible, we might very well become enlightened christians?

I'm curious, are you a Born-Again or Jehovas Witness?

[RobinHood3000]

Incidentally, the Puritans were also the Puritans who killed 20 people in the name of religion. Very lamblike, indeed.

You know, Christian, there's an archangel Michael whose name begins with the 13th letter of the alphabet...what of him?

I get the feeling that between our two outlooks, Christian, my outlook is not the one that needs to be more objective.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

We live in an entirely symbolic world my friend, all that you sense is a symbol of what you understand and all that you understand is a symbol of what you have sensed.

That's not circular at all...


The important point is the relevance and pertinence a symbolic relation has to reality(I think mine is fairly well substantiated).



Care to elucidate? Because I've looked at all your posts and you really haven't substantiated anything...by that I mean with something credible.


Also religion or rather Christianity will never disappear

People like you make that possible, Christian. Hey, guess what else doesn't disappear? Cancer. Until somebody finds a cure for it, that is. You see, religion is a disease of the mind just as cancer is a disease of the body. And nobody has found a cure for either one. Quite disheartening, really.


Those of whom do not believe in Christianity are often those that know the least regarding it.

.....or they know enough not to bother with it...

Christian, you need help. Unfortunately, like cancer, there's really no cure for you. But please, don't spread it to other people. At least control the damage.

**I am aware that this post is 98% saturated with sarcasm, but I would kindly ask the powers that be (the mods of course, NOT some "god") to allow this post to survive. Ok, I'm done.

[RobinHood3000]

XXdarkclarityXX, I wonder why you have such a vendetta against religion. It's no worse than alcohol in that at least religion is comparatively beneficial in moderation. I don't believe in it either, but it seems a bit harsh to regard it as a disease.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Life is harsh, Robin. I personally wonder why people act like the gates of hell are opening every time I post... Oh well. I understand where you are coming from, Robin. Helping out the oppressed and all. You're just doing your job by defending Christian.

Oh, and the reason I have such a vendetta is because my last name begins with a "W". Yeah, according to Christian that makes me the antichrist. It's the direct opposite of M. ::begins laughing hysterically:: In any case, I'll be heading to bed now. Good night.

[jon1jt]

Hey, guess what else doesn't disappear? Cancer. Until somebody finds a cure for it, that is. You see, religion is a disease of the mind just as cancer is a disease of the body. And nobody has found a cure for either one. Quite disheartening, really.

After I read this line, I did the Macarena dance! You and I see eye-to-eye on this subject matter, big time. You're the man! :banana: I also agree with your point that Robinhood is tacitly supporting religion with his mild approval, equating religious belief to worldly vices, like drinking alcohol. They are apples and oranges. That's not to take away the good services religion provides people and society. Marx may have been right when he said that

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

Is it? Consider, maybe ROBINHOOD IS ON TO SOMETHING: What would religious folks do without their fix of religiosity? Hmm. My theory on Religion is the same as Nietzsche's---organized religion creates the illusion of the metaphysical world (heaven) so as to exalt in its promise, which allows one to forget about this life. So we have what Thoreau calls, "Sleepwalkers." Exactly.

Neitzsche's Doctrine of the Eternal Recurrence had the most profound impact on my life, more so than any biblical text. -Life is here, right now, live it, embrace it all, relish every moment with the idea that if you had to live your life an infinite number of times, you would look back at the end of your life and say affirmatively, "I would do it the same, all of it." AMEN.

[RobinHood3000]

"Defending Christian?" Read my posts lately :p? Defense was hardly my intent--I'm just saying that I know some very charming theists who might otherwise not be around.

"Tacitly supporting?" I'll do you one better: I will openly state that I am in favor of religion--again, with the exception of extreme cases like Christian here. To draw from the Marx quotation, my position is that a sleeping layperson is better than a conscious sociopath.

Conversion of the religious isn't my goal (and it's largely an exercise in futility anyway, isn't it?) so much as giving future generations (or at least my future children) the option of believing or not believing. So far, it seems like Christianity is the "default setting" for many because it's simply the majority. Therein lies the trend I seek to change.

[Synnove]

I have to address this section of your post, Christian. If it's already been addressed, excuse me. This annoyed me far too greatly to read anything else.


2.) Dabbling with Spirits

Wika(or Witchcraft) is the the fastest growing religion in the United States and many people are enslaved to suffering the most deplorable of carnal lusts without the ability to restrain themselves as a result of being members.

It's "Wicca" (or "Wicce") which is NOT the same as "Witchcraft." Witchcraft is an old-age religion, dating in its most primitive forms, approximately four thousand years back. Wicca, however, is a new-age religion created little over fifty years ago. They do not share the same views. In Witchcraft it is generally seen that "magic" for self benefit is okay. However, in Wicca, the new-age religion, they stand by a "three fold" rule which states that by whatever intention you use "magic" (they spell it "magick"), the consequences of such will come back to you three fold (i.e.: if you use it for good, something three times as good will happen to you.) It's simply a karma rule.

Furthermore, Wicca denounces functioning off of lust, and encourages restraint of carnal desire to perform good. It discourages the use of "magic" for anything that will cause people harm.


One person I saw stated that during a ritual they were dancing around a circle with the pentagram in it and one of her freinds accidently or intentionally stepped into the circle and was instantly possessed speaking in unatural tones and scaring all of them.

It sounds to me that they were not taking this seriously, or you are confusing Wicca with some left-handed religion--or even that the person was lying to you. I've never encountered any such activity in a Wiccan ritual--which are usually performed in very small groups ("Covens") or by one's own self, and are not so elaborate that dancing is involved.

Another personal freind met a boy who had the ability to move objects without touching them and on one occasion threw a ball a distance that could never be possible of someone of his stature, fortunately they were able to liberate this boy from his demon by prayer

That sounds psychosomatic, not demonic.

Another freind was in a meeting when one woman began shouting that "Satan is Lord!" in unatural tones a condition that she was not in control of as she did not know why it was occuring so my freind informed her to state that "Jesus is Lord" and it resided temporarily but returned, so my freind who was a pastor had to take this woman to another pastor where at length the demon was cast out.

But this has nothing to do with Wicca. Wiccans do not believe in your Satan. From my experience with Wiccans, they tend to embrace the idea that the earth is the earth, and separate not by "good" or "evil" but by what is helpful and what is hurtful. Worshipping your Satan would be hurtful, and that is strictly against their religion. They worship the Lady, who is a figure of fertility, health, strength, and good things. Christians and Catholics just as often get possessed by demons, supposedly. Does that make them evil? No.

Overall, I think you don't know what you're talking about. Nothing you typed convinced me any more to be a Christian, and in fact, simply made me laugh and decide I am right in being an agnostic-spiritualist, which does not create unhealthy perceptions of the world.

Your ignorance is almost disgusting.

[RobinHood3000]

Wow, Synnove--that was very educational :). Thanks for the insight--I never really paid much attention to Wicca before.

[jon1jt]

I'm just saying that I know some very charming theists who might otherwise not be around.

"Tacitly supporting?" I'll do you one better: I will openly state that I am in favor of religion--again, with the exception of extreme cases like Christian here. To draw from the Marx quotation, my position is that a sleeping layperson is better than a conscious sociopath.

This stuff is hilarious, in a good way, don't worry. :lol: I'm confident that your theist friends would still be around because they won't need theist boundaries to find the goodness in themselves all ready there.

You hit the nail on the head kind sir, my head, good point. The potential harm to society if religious zealots lost their religion could, in fact, be bad for the rest of us. "Conscious sociopath," wow, I never thought of that, and so true.

In the meantime, we should begin to seriously confront religious dogma to put the Sleepers on notice that we will not remain silent on the dogmatic aspect of their doctrine/narrative, so as to open them up to the part of themselves from which they are at present cut off. Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "I am a transparent eyeball." Call it spirituality, transcendentalism, what have you; it's a freedom of the will. Nature's spirit at work.

[RobinHood3000]

I completely agree, but if you've ever talked to a theist about atheism, I imagine that you're aware that their position is not easily unsettled. If you've ever read Christian propaganda, some of it sounds like they view themselves as the persecuted (rather than vice versa). For many, it's hard enough to get them to think critically about their religion at all. Frankly, I think that the best way to promote understanding of atheism is to offer a free choice. I hope it won't bother me if Christianity remains the majority, but at the very least, I think that I would insist that people read the menu before ordering what everyone else is ordering.

And for XXdarkclarityXX, I borrow a quotation I once read (originally in a political context, but I think it fits): "You don't sell Pepsi by insulting Coke drinkers."

[Whifflingpin]

"You don't sell Pepsi by insulting Coke drinkers."

That maxim should be incorporated into the rules of this forum.

.

"Incidentally, the Puritans were also the Puritans who killed 20 people in the name of religion."

20 people !!? 20 nations more like - Pequots, Narragansets, Massachusets, Wampanoegs etc etc. Men, women and children destroyed, first by disease and then by fire and the gun. Genocide is too mild a word for the frolicking of these sweet lambs.

.

[RobinHood3000]

Well, that was in the name of expansion. The Salem Witch Trials were in the name of religion--at least ostensibly.

[Whifflingpin]

Expansion was in the name of religion.

.

[RobinHood3000]

Eh, you're probably right. For the Puritans, I imagine clipping their nails was probably in the name of religion. At any rate, one wonders why we're arguing the point--we've already established the Puritans as being less than the victims that elementary school history portrays them to be.

[Green Lady]

For those that claim that understanding the evilness of the world is not sufficient to justify a search for that which is good and that which can save one from the world this is for you:

When one believes in Jesus Christ it is only natural to believe also that at this present moment we are in a world controlled by Satan, as this is what The Bible informs us of, then it naturally follows that what The Bible says of satan's character must also have bearing upon the world, as it is his dominion and one's dominion is reflective of oneself. So if one were to see the world in satan's possession then consequently the existence of Jesus and the validity of his sayings is also a logical conclusion as it is from The Bible that we extract this information.


This world is not Satans dominion, it is his dwelling place. He does not have power over us unless given the opening. The world only reflects him if the people in it have opened themselves to Satan. It is not reflected in a number. Or the symbol on a dollar bill. The world has never been Satan's possession but, for the time being, a gift to us so that we may live and grow here.

[Orionsbelt]

I think Christian is serious. Like most of you I was raised in a christian home and now have some trouble accepting the great toaster in the sky. ( if you do this your toast ... if you do that our toast.. etc.) I have read a lot of what Joeseph Cambel has written. In my mind he understood religion and religious thought like no other man on earth. What I have also come to see is that some folks need to hold the straw. Some folks must have order and cannot accept the fact that there is no structure that we as people have not created. Some folks cannot handle the existential problem. Anxiety.
Some folks just want to belive because it makes them feel good. In any case I don't have a problem with these kinds of notions. I realize that churches serve needs other than those that are necessarily rational. I do however agree that the religions from the middle east are aggresive. They all promote to one degree or another the idea that there can be only one god and it must be mine. Warrior style. Witness Islam emerging from their shell. In some ways these folks seem like children to me and my heart bleeds for them. This complete lack of compassion has show itself repeatedly through the ages in the Catholic church of Europe. In the Anglican church of england. In our puritan forefathers as they burned children as witches. Finally, in the emergance of Islam today. Frankly, I think Christ was a Gnostic hero who's teachings went contrary to this pattern. Hence his demise. In any case it is not easy to free yourself from the fear and guilt that has been pounded into you as a child. "Thou shalt" as Mr Cambell would say. Most people don't give religion any thought after the eight grade. They simply sit bored oput of the skulls in a Sunday service. They don't care it is just something that you do.... an people say bad things about you if you don't. Anyway the way to some kind of new understanding are things like this. So rock on with all your heart. Whatever you do .... don't take yourselfs too seriously.

[sdr4jc]

The fear and guilt pounded into you as a child...that's the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God is God and none other. The realm of this earth is also the realm of satan, for the time at least. The Bible says that Satan rules the earth and the skies. Makes me glad to be a child of God.

[RobinHood3000]

As many of these forum members will tell you, Islam is no more violent or overbearing than any other major world religion. I would also like to point out that Christianity, as Christian proves in this thread, is itself quite prone to "There is only one God, and He is ours" statements.


Satan doesn't exist for me. Makes me glad to be an atheist.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

[Edited to reflect changes in the post I quoted - XC]As many of these forum members will tell you, Islam is no more violent or overbearing than any other major world religion. I would also like to point out that Christianity, as Christian proves in this thread, is itself quite prone to "There is only one God, and He is ours" statements.

It's not just followers of any one religion that hold this kind of view. It's followers of sects and factions within that religion too. Witness the 'troubles' (such a tame word, don't you think) in Northern Ireland/Ulster and the recent terrible reprisals for the desecration of the Al Askari shrine.

I know we shouldn't discuss current events, but I would like to proffer my sorrow and concerns to all muslim (Sunni or Shia) and Iraqi members for the tragedies in Baghdad this week.

In all religions there are also those that would not consider taking this view. It's hard to imagine either a Quaker or a Dervish taking arms for religious reasons. As always, the fault is very much a human one, not a fault of religoin per se. Those of a violent disposition will latch onto any cause (be it religious, political, nationalistic, or even just which football team they support) as an excuse for exercising that disposition.

Sadly, religions, even those based on peace and love, are among the favourite excuses for these people.

[Whifflingpin]

"It's hard to imagine ... a Dervish taking arms for religious reasons."

Now had you been in Egypt or the Soudan in the 1880s and 1890s you might have thought differently.

(Not, I hasten to add, that that invalidates your argument, which, apart from that little slip, I totally agree with.)

.

[Orionsbelt]

Not lackof understanding Xamonos.. Please don't think I am trying to single out Islam. My point is all of these traditions extend from the levant. In all of there teaching Jewish, Christian, or Islam or sub divisions and sects.... the underling message is the ancient persian notion of a polorized universe. light and dark... truth and lie... "if you are not with us then you must be against us" much like we have seen here with the whole stream of satan ruling the earth. Regard sdr4jc ...satan himself has been rumored to be a child of god. If you want a truely compasionate turn on this story read the Islamic version of this notion. Once this "not like us" drug has had it's effect almost any intrusion on another human is possible. In spite of the fact that the base rule i.e ten commandments are part of the foundation for all three. I am not hurting you ... I am hurting satan or evil or..... whatever. Interestingly the original Jewish notion of satan as an advocate (lawyer for the prosecution) has been completely lost. So RobinHood... yes I agree.

PS. I think the whole dervish thing is just cool as can be.

[RobinHood3000]

The "lack of understanding" was my statement--I edited it, but only after Xamonas quoted it. "If you would look upon your wronger...look upon me."

In all fairness, not even atheists are totally free of the "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.

[Dos Santos]

Well after reading this entire thread (which took longer than i had hoped because im supposed to be doing a repot due in about oh 3 hrs) i have decided one thing. Not one thing in this whole discussion has changed my stance of my religion. which is btw athiest. I mean really, I go to a catholic school and am force to take a religion class. In everything they have told me, not once was McDonalds and Starbucks mentioned as being satanic. However I suppose you could push for Michael Jackson being satan, but his old music is pretty damn good(Beat it, Billie Jean, Don't stop till you get enough, and Thriller). As for the "If your not with us, your against us" mind set, I back up Robin on the fact that even athiest are subject to this very human flaw. In fact all religions or non-religions are under this influence. It is in the human nature to make prejudgements and to condem with our mind and actions, those who think differently than ourselves. Not one person can say that they have not done this to someone at least once in their life, and if they do then I'm sorry but they're a dirty dirty liar. And with that I must now go finish that project... Anyone know anything about Himeji Castle?

[Whifflingpin]

"Anyone know anything about Himeji Castle?" No, but if you enter it in Google you'll get over 76,000 entries - good luck

.

[Dos Santos]

well I did exactly that and i just finished my project about a min ago. Wow im glad that they invented adderal. No sleep at all and great concentration. I think the little engine that could had to get some help from adderal to. But thats just a therory of mine.

[Whifflingpin]

:) I hope you remember to thank God for Google and adderal ;)

[Dos Santos]

way ahead of you there my friend... however when i go to class today the teacher decides to change the reports due date... I would have cried but at the time I was to tired to have any emotion whatsoever.

[RobinHood3000]

However I suppose you could push for Michael Jackson being satan, but his old music is pretty damn good(Beat it, Billie Jean, Don't stop till you get enough, and Thriller).
Aye, that it is. Smooth Criminal's not too terrible either, in my opinion. And the Jackson Five put out some great songs.

Hayden Christiansen, though--now there's pure evil. WHO CAST HIM to play Anakin Skywalker??? Playing a dysfunctional problem kid in Life as a House is one thing--hiring him to play one of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy (i.e., someone with emotional depth) is another entirely!!

[chmpman]

Hayden Christiansen, though--now there's pure evil. WHO CAST HIM to play Anakin Skywalker??? Playing a dysfunctional problem kid in Life as a House is one thing--hiring him to play one of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy (i.e., someone with emotional depth) is another entirely!!

I dislike Hayden as well. I have the suspicion he was only cast in order to gain a new demographic of Star Wars fans: Women.

[RobinHood3000]

Bah. There are plenty of better young male actors to play Darth Vader. Elijah Wood has established that's he's capable of appearing corrupted and evil, and he's used to appendage loss by now.

Still, it was remarkably gratifying to watch Mr. Christiansen flambé on screen.

[Dos Santos]

I definatly agree on that one. I really felt better about myself when he was turned into what he really is. A flaming piece of terrible acting, and in all fairness I think that they really could have.... ok after that last coma i realized that im rambaling now.

[Theshizznigg]

Oh, don't get me started on his acting in the film, it felt irksome, unrealistic, and strangely out of tune, certainly not the best pick for Darth Vader.

Funny fact, the old Darth Vader without his mask had an english accent, maybe the young one took eloquition lessons?

Don Santos, are you really a Don?

"Hell is a largely populated Suburb in ******"

[Dos Santos]

umm no its dos...dont worry ppl mess up my last name all the time.

[Theshizznigg]

Oh sorry, Don Santos sounded really cool.

"How often does fate ignore us? Never, he watching you while you bathe!"

[Mililalil XXIV]

Christian wrote:
"McDonalds - If you turn the logo up to the left you get the number 13 this is a symbol for rebellion "
Where do you get this #13~rebellion idea?

Christian:
"The consummation and greatest design of Satan Worship is non other than The Catholic Church, this institution has shed more innocent blood than any other in the history of mankind. So many grievious misconceptions regarding Christianity know their basis with this Church. It has managed to morph itself from a Christian establishment into a truly pagan system with a superficial type of Christianity as it's veneer."
This is anabaptist poppycock!
Some of the so-called bloodshed by Catholics were mistakenly invented in this way:
Lutherans took the reins of Germany and killed Catholics and anabaptists. The anabaptists, who had broken off from the Catholic Church more recently than the Lutherans, obstinately condemned Catholics, and stubbornly called all their enemies the same names they called Catholics: "Papists", "Romists", etc.

When Lutherans came into power, Catholics were not treated as equals, and there is no possibility for the fable that they then were heading the persecution on anabaptists. A later generation of Lutherans, though, seeing their forebears called by the same names they were themselves calling Catholics, did not readilly realize who their anabaptist victims had been accusing as their murderers, and, in retrospect transferred the blame for their own Lutheran led persecution of anabaptists and Catholics onto their former victims, the Catholics in Germany, who had no powerful German champion.

The fact is, more people have been killed by another group than any called "Christian" than all the socalled "Christian" groups combined have killed. The once Christian nations that the Apostle Paul preached to were not eradicated by Catholics. Catholics were killed along with Jews in the holocaust, and more Catholics saved more Jews than any one else did in the second world war.

In nearly 2000 years, there has never been a Christian/Jewish war. Catholics in most generations in nearly two millennia have not fought as many wars as were justly provoked.

The Jesuits did not kill the Canadian natives - the natives tortured them, and still they tried to benefit the natives of Canada. In the land of the Incas, the conquestadors that did attrocities were not Catholics. You may not want to know this, but it is undeniable. Not all Spaniards were Catholic then, just as many are secularized now! No Catholic would do as those men did: they purposely got far away from Catholic Spain and allowed no Priest to accompany them. This is to deny oneself the Mass, and no more allow for the possibility of keeping the Covenant! Those that came later and complained to Spain of the conquestadors' abuses of the Incas were Catholic families and Priests!

A little North, in Aztec territory, the Aztecs' reign of terror over countless other tribes was ended with few of the culprits being put to death - because a consientious Catholic oversaw the matter, and thought to give heathens a clean new slate. The drug lords of the countries south of the U.S. are an outgrowth of those original irreligious Spaniards and some native accomplices, and these still reign terror on decent Catholic family people, and murder Priests in Mass, while the family people are still among the warmest-hearted hosts on earth.

The kkk hate Catholics, you might be interested to know.

"Bloody" Mary had not that many individuals put to death compared to the Anglicans before and after her - and the ones she had executed were guilty of crimes against the state. Henry VIII forced monks and nuns to marry, destroyed the sacred burial places of many, and began a persecution of Catholics. Mary, knowing that Anglicanism had unnaturally displaced the recent heritage of all Britain, which many "Anglicans" still secretly practiced, was not surprising in her attempt to put out an oppressive flame while it was still a burden on the greater numbers' consciences. If something forced itself on you that your conscience could not accept, would you adopt the novelty rather than struggle for a quick recovery of the greater number's loss of recent heritage?


- The Vatican - In Latin The Vatican means the Divining Serpent Vatis = diviner Can = Serpent.

-The Mass- The claim is that in the process of transubstantiation the round wafer(which is essential in Romish Mystery as it is only another symbol for Baal or the sun), which is placed into a monstrance(a container) during the mass, not only is a symbol of Jesus Christ's body but becomes in fact Jesus's body so Christ is killed anew each mass. This is blasphemy Christ only had to die once

"Vatican" is not "vatis" + "Can". The /C/ is to separate the stem of the word from the "-an" suffix. That is like saying "Valentinian" is "Valentes" + "Nian".
The Vatican is a place name, not the name of what took control of the location.

The Monstrance is not an ingredient in celebrating the Mass, nor does the Host need to be round. This is silliness from a stupid book by Alexander Hislop, one of the most laughable "scholars" ever. His book alone is the main source of most anti-Catholic protestant slander. The LORD said the Bread of the Eucharist becomes HIS own Flesh, "true Food indeed". In this context HE called HIMSELF the BREAD from Heaven, saying HE superceded the Manna that fell from Heaven in Moses' day. That Manna was also round! So are the cells flesh and blood are made of! Long before the monstrance was constructed, there were the same elements of the Mass that it consists of today. CHRIST conducted the first Mass before HE died, because HE made it possible to go directly to HIS one Sacrifice, given once for all, and propitiate - not replace - it afresh. HE is said in Scripture to have died as the LAMB of GOD in the ETERNAL SPIRIT, and to have been slain, in that way, before the Foundation of the Kosmos. Thus HE reached into Eternity before HIS Passion, and opens up to all, from all points afterward, that one Sacrifice, bidding all enter that time and place in the ETERNAL SPIRIT. I will post more on this at a more convenient moment.

[RobinHood3000]

What proof do you have that the conquistadors were not religious (besides your argument that no Catholic would do such a thing)?

[Stanislaw]

What proof do you have that the conquistadors were not religious (besides your argument that no Catholic would do such a thing)?

Well the conquistadors claimed to be true practioners of the faith, however what they did was contradictory to the beliefs of catholicism. They were commiting a worse sin than those who don't believe and do the same.

for example: are germans an evil race because some of them participated in the holocaust?

[RobinHood3000]

Perhaps I should rephrase the question (I misworded it): What evidence do you have that the conquistadores did not consider themselves Catholics?

[Stanislaw]

Perhaps I should rephrase the question (I misworded it): What evidence do you have that the conquistadores did not consider themselves Catholics?

They probably did consider themselves catholics. I'm just saying that they were not practicing what they said they believed, is all. :)

[RobinHood3000]

Well, that speaks for itself, doesn't it? ;)

[Stanislaw]

Well, that speaks for itself, doesn't it? ;)

Indeed, now if you'll exuse me I have some witches to burn... :D

[Theshizznigg]

When did religion get so complicated?

No wonder people are reluctant to learn about this stuff, with all the isms, and nisms.
Whatever happened to Christianity, simple, unadulterated belief in Christ as God?
To many men in the past, and many by todays standards get so caught up in religion, that they eventually kill all spiritual growth.
Leaving, a dead, weighty faith, that nobody wants to be a part of.

"Holerolo, Picaso mengst?"

[Stanislaw]

Your a wise chap!

When faith stops being faith and turns into just a mechanical realigeous institute, it is no longer doing God's will. But, even the lost can return home in the end.

[Dos Santos]

Well after some deep meditation in my miniature Zen garden about this entire thread I have reached a conclusion. No matter what religion you follow, whither it's Christianity (or any of its "factions" as I like to call them), Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Pagan, they all have one common factor. Each one is filled "What Ifs". There are constant "What if" arguments about religion that are either trying to convey or contradict ideas about the religion or the religion as a whole. Also I would like to remind everyone that religion is all about an INDIVIDUALS FAITH, and only theirs. The fact that people in this world try to convert people to their own religion sickens me to the point that I condemn those who take part in this so called "Mission of Faith" that they believe so strongly in. I have no personal hate or even dislike towards any religion as a whole, or towards any beliefs that they may hold. My Condemnation is solely to those who insult, attack, degrade, deface, persecute, attempt to convert, or in any way attempt to harm (physically or verbally) any other religion, simply because of their overzealous and completely fanatical reasoning that their religion is the only correct religion, and that all others should follow it. People simply need to accept other's differences and that if these differences didn't exist, the world would not be how it is today. Now I acknowledge that people could argue that the world could be better if we were all unified under a single religion, but also that it could be worse. And once again I point out that both of those arguments are "What ifs" and have no factual basis. I truly wish that the world could change its prejudice ways that are now just second nature to many people. However I realize that there will always be prejudice in the world and we are forced to live with it. The only thing that we can do is attempt to minimize it. Although I am only sixteen years old, and many would quickly think, "He is just a child what does he know about the world? He hasn’t seen the true horror that the world really holds." and truth be told I would understand where they are coming from. Most teenagers now days do not understand the world and how there is a great amount of corruption in it. However, I believe age is no barrier to wisdom and that the argument I have just stated, contains a fair amount of truth to it. I have seen a great deal in the short amount of time I have been on this earth, and I take the time to think about these things in hopes that I might better understand the world and its people. And when I say people, I am not talking about the people that I have a common day to day interaction with, but the human race as a whole. I sincerely hope that my words give you all some form of wisdom and possibly a better understanding. I know I strayed off the topic of religion somewhat (probably more than somewhat), but I believe that my words needed to be heard. Even if it is from a teenager, sometimes it takes the mind of a youth to understand things, rather than an elder who believe themselves to know more than others, and yet in reality, are simply arrogant to their own foolishness.

[RobinHood3000]

Most eloquent, Dos Santos. I'm intrigued by what else on the subject you have to say.

By the by, there's no reason to defend your age here--for example, I'm only 17, so take it from me: the vast majority of the people on these forums know well the difference between maturity and age. Welcome to LitNet!

[needing]

Somehow Robinhood I think you will merely mull over your own arguments against me, the one's you have posed do not change the fact that the symbols are as they are.

Are you Christian or Muslim?

[Dos Santos]

Well Robin I'll be glad to continue contributing my thoughts on this matter or any others that you want to ask me about. However, at the moment I am in my physics class, and besides that the only time I truly can best express myself is at night. So if you have any specific questions feel free to ask and I will give my ideas on them as soon as i get the chance. Oh and also I thought I was one of the only young people here. I'm glad that I'm not. go us youths.

[Scheherazade]

Dos Santos, if you go here (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15232), you will be able to see the ages of our members.

Welcome to the Forum! :)

[Dos Santos]

Well now alls that I have to say to that is, Solid. Oh and of course thank you for showing me that.

[Stanislaw]

heh Damn youngins!!! :D

[Dos Santos]

hey we'd help it if we could. I mean honestly I would love to be 21 right now. But either way I had another night of no sleep at all last night because I thought I had alot of HW. It turns out though that I got my class days mixed up and in reality had very little. But because I took Adderal before hand so it would keep me up to do the HW and allow me to concentrate, I had 6 1/2 hrs of nothing to do. That was about the time that I wrote my post with my thoughts about this thread. To be honest I do not think I was in my right mind at the time because I hardly remember writing it. Very odd but whatever works.

[Stanislaw]

hey we'd help it if we could. I mean honestly I would love to be 21 right now. But either way I had another night of no sleep at all last night because I thought I had alot of HW. It turns out though that I got my class days mixed up and in reality had very little. But because I took Adderal before hand so it would keep me up to do the HW and allow me to concentrate, I had 6 1/2 hrs of nothing to do. That was about the time that I wrote my post with my thoughts about this thread. To be honest I do not think I was in my right mind at the time because I hardly remember writing it. Very odd but whatever works.


:D I am only 20. :D

[Mililalil XXIV]

What proof do you have that the conquistadors were not religious (besides your argument that no Catholic would do such a thing)?
I will collect it for you. There is much that leaves it beyond doubt. It is silly racist thinking that says a bad Spaniard is a Catholic.
There were differences in the ways that different groups of conquestadors operated, and in the cases I know of, this matches their beliefs and convictions (either Catholic or atheistic).

If one says all Swedes are Christian, and then points at the faults of their irreligious society, they err. Once Sweden was a Catholic nation. Then their greater numbers jumped on Martin Luther's band wagon, and they became a protestant society. From there their culture fell into atheism. Whatever the former Catholic legacy of their fathers was, Swedish atheists cannot be faulted in their ammoral pursuits as Catholics. Madonna was raised Catholic. Why don't you question whether or not she acts now with Catholic conviction?

I had once presumed things like Christian does - only to see in an honest research what the facts were. I began to have to concede good things about the Church I considered my greatest enemies (though every Catholic I knew did more for my family even while I hated and cursed them than our other friends did). It is popular to hate Catholics, and all too comfortable to all too many to hold onto old prejudicial notions even after fresh unbiased disproof from dispassionate hard evidence.

[RobinHood3000]

When did I say that a bad Spaniard was a Catholic? I asked what makes a bad Spaniard a NON-Catholic.

Excuse me--"fell into atheism"? We are not some lowly pit surrounded by sulphur and brimstone for people to lower themselves into, Mililalil. That's silly, prejudiced diction.

And I should point out that hating and cursing people, regardless of your religion, is the wrong starting point entirely from which to develop a belief system. I don't know about every other atheist out there, but this particular one does not see the point of considering any religion one's "greatest enemy."

[Mililalil XXIV]

Well the conquistadors claimed to be true practioners of the faith, however what they did was contradictory to the beliefs of catholicism. They were commiting a worse sin than those who don't believe and do the same.

Stanislaw, I am not referring to all conquestadors as non-Catholic, but only the particular group that ravaged the Incas. If you read the accounts of the different waves of colonization from Spain to that particular area, you will see what I was differentiating from the activities of Hernando Cortes.

Cortes began his efforts to claim foriegn lands at age 19. Despite his youth, he did nothing like Francisco Pizarro did. Cortes did not at once act in violence, but saw enough of the attrocities enacted by the Aztecs on the other tribes to act like a chivalrous knight against such culprits. He killed some of those human-sacrificing warriors in the process of a struggle at arms them, but afterward he showed their survivors - their greater number - great Catholic Mercy. He resisted overkill out of Catholic conviction.

Pizarro, based on his words and actions with regard to others, was known to be a man who wanted to move on from Catholic society and be a dictator.
He heard of the Incas when he was 50. Unlike Cortes' group, he and those with him immediately sized up an oppurtunity to decimate those that had given them no warrant for interferance, and enjoyed the utmost cruelty to all the Incas.

The differences are significant, and the two parties ought never to be conflated into one.

Nonetheless, until I learned this beyond a doubt, I too went about the matter as you have, looking to be as fair as possible to anti-Catholic opponents (that is, not those opposed by us, but opposing us).

If a Catholic were to do an attrocity - GOD forbid such a thing - I would agree that he should be duly punished, and his reputation stipped of the name "Christian".

[Scheherazade]

I agree with Robin that atheism is not a state of despair or some kind of predicament one falls into. For me, it is a declaration of dissatisfaction with the religious arguments and explanations at hand. Constant implications that atheists lack moral values simply because they do not need religious books to tell them the right from wrong is really getting old.

Mililalil>In one of the threads, you said you felt the need to read the manuals to the letter because operating things. Some people do have an idea how things work without reading the manuals and can get them operate without the guidelines of such books. You are happy to read them; fair enough but please don't say everyone else should do the same or assume that they are bound to go wrong.

What is more, the world population is not divided into Catholics and non-Catholics.

[Mililalil XXIV]

I agree with Robin that atheism is not a state of despair or some kind of predicament one falls into. For me, it is a declaration of dissatisfaction with the religious arguments and explanations at hand. Constant implications that atheists lack moral values simply because they do not need religious books to tell them the right from wrong is really getting old.

Mililalil>In one of the threads, you said you felt the need to read the manuals to the letter because operating things. Some people do have an idea how things work without reading the manuals and can get them operate without the guidelines of such books. You are happy to read them; fair enough but please don't say everyone else should do the same or assume that they are bound to go wrong.

What is more, the world population is not divided into Catholics and non-Catholics.

Scheherazade, which comment of Robin are you paraphrasing? Maybe you aren'y addressing me until the second paragraph - but I never in the post above mentioned what I did for the reason you may think. I was showing that in the often confused analysis of the Spanish conquests (mixing varying ones together as though all things were equal), anti-Catholic statements were made (originally by Christian) based more on the leeway of ambiguities than on precise facts. Robin then brought up a different angle of things, challenging a statement I had made to Christian, yet as coming at it from a different angle than him. Thus I showed that this particular case of Pizarro's cruelty doesn't even fit into Catholic behavior, because of the actual fact of his atheism ruling that religious conviction out altogether. My point was that the atheistc distancing of Pizarro and his company from the Catholic Faith and Tradition is evidenced in his pursuits being filled with what can only be called atheism (because it left GOD behind - and atheism is literally being without GOD).

If in a court case a shoe is said to be too small for a giant, and the one accused of leaving a trail to a crime is a giant, the defense is not so much defining midgets as they are simply pointing at the opposite side of the spectrum to establish the absence of red where indigo in fact shone (if you know what I mean).

It is Christian that started this thread off saying that on the side of Catholics is practically all the evil the world has sufferred. In the case of the conquestadors, I noted that of two groups, the Catholic one was not the one that fought unprevoked and for selfish, cruel reasons. All the comtemporary testimonies bear this up. On the other hand, Christian's silly conspiracy theories are the stuff corny tracts, not unbiased investigation are made of.

The seventh-day adventists, to which he currently belongs, are not known for well-researched seminars. I went to several when I was in my late teens. They are afraid of every thing GOD has created, including days of the week, circles, names, buildings, ageeing accounts between the Bible and heathen cultures, Sacraments mentioned in the Bible, ancient Christian writers, all Bible versions but the King James Version, drums, authority, government, non-English heritage, etc.

I was given much of their literature. I spouted things off that led to the demise of my public life for a while. I accused Catholics of "killing the Saints". Then I thought to compile a list of these "Saints" they killed. I was intent on tracing protestants back to JESUS HIMSELF. I searched in vain for a few years to find even one man in history that suffered as a saintly protestant martyr. I was disturbed by how often I saw whole clusters of Catholic Saints I wanted to imagine away, like some horrible ace up satan's sleave. Their Holiness just had to be a trick of the devil!

As I double-checked references in seventh-day-adventist books, I found that 99% of what they didn't claim to have culled from the Bible was from a modern text book by an anabaptist, or by some one that had copied the statements of other modern speculators. Here is a good example:
in their book called "The Almost Forgotten Day", they make blanket statements about alleged traditions of one Christian or Christian community or another, then give references to encyclopedias from recent decades, rather than from actual source documents. I was not helped by seeing that Mr. Modern quotes Johnny-come-lately, who gets his ideas from a recent encyclopedist, that collected all his data from modern papers.

A more specific example from the above-mentioned book:
there is an outright false quotation alleged to be from the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebios. What the modern book gives for the wording is not even near to a paraphrase. Eusebios says in a certain place that before the destruction of Jerusalem, the Christian community there had Oracles telling them to depart to Pella. The silly book, "The Almost Forgotten Day", outright lies and says that that very passage mentions that those Christians journeyed to where they could keep the Sabbath (which isn't even alluded to in the passage at all).

The worthless compilation of ramblings by one Alexander Hislop, "The Two Babylons", says such things as that Nimrod's birthday was Dec. 25 - where can such information as that be found? - and that the Communion wafer is a symbol of sun-worship - though the "prototypes" he points out from Babylon are not generally representative of the shape of Babylonian baking (which included triangular, oval, square, and many other shapes). Some things he points out as so obviously evil as to make all decent souls boil over (such as the wearing of hats by Catholics) are things common to men by reason of their being the common practice of a younger, smaller population, when there were but few souls, and as of yet no religious differences (except in attitude).

[Stanislaw]

er, the bad spaniards, and the good spaniards were catholic. It was the accepted faith of the state, and an inquisition was being carried out against all other faiths, specifically Jews and Muslims. That is why spain fell behind in the scientific revolution, many of the prominent/succesful scientist in spain were jewish or muslim.

Just because they did un-catholic things, does not make them less catholic by name, that is the banner they flew while commiting these crimes, however, they were hipocrates.

And how could anyone say that Cortez was a great catholic with great catholic conviction? He slaughtered the natives, and unleashed the jesuits on them. He aided in the destruction of their culture. He may have been a catholic, as were the jesuits, but that does not make them good or holy.

[Mililalil XXIV]

er, the bad spaniards, and the good spaniards were catholic. It was the accepted faith of the state, and an inquisition was being carried out against all other faiths, specifically Jews and Muslims. That is why spain fell behind in the scientific revolution, many of the prominent/succesful scientist in spain were jewish or muslim.

Just because they did un-catholic things, does not make them less catholic by name, that is the banner they flew while commiting these crimes, however, they were hipocrates.

And how could anyone say that Cortez was a great catholic with great catholic conviction? He slaughtered the natives, and unleashed the jesuits on them. He aided in the destruction of their culture. He may have been a catholic, as were the jesuits, but that does not make them good or holy.
The fact of the state Religion shows all the clearer that Pizarro saw leaving Spain as a means of not being Catholic. It is true that most were born into Spanish families, if they were not born into "orthodox" Jewish families or muslim families, but some were not from religious families at all - even in Spain.

Today we see many unbelievers in "Catholic" Spain, who certainly would argue they are not Catholic, except by family ties. Even non-Catholic researchers have picked up on things Pizarro did to detach himself from the Catholic world. I see no evidence - not even slight evidence - to the contrary. I was willing to call all Spanish conquestadors evil at one time - as, if it were the truth, it alone would hold to the Catholic Doctrines of Truth and Justice -, but I had to alter my historical views when I took stock of separate pieces of evidence.

Cortes did not attack any of the many tribes that had been living under the Aztecs' oppression for centuries. Those he did attack were guilty of generations of inhumane cruelty to many ethnic divisions in the area. They themselves came into the area later than the many natives they subjected to daily human sacrifice, slavery, rape, etc. These Aztecs alone - certainly not the earlier population they domineered - had held the empire the Spaniards replaced with Mexico. They actually did such things as skin another tribe's chief's daughter, and dance in her skin before him to his horror! They had countless skulls of their victims piled high in a special house which Cortes saw - nothing like it had he ever seen before; he helplessly saw victims grabbed in public to be subjected to attrocities; having seen these things while first coming in a non-military fashion, he mustered his men and all the victim tribes together and ended it all. The Aztecs - his only foes - were far from annihilated: many Catholic Mexicans today are from that stock.

Pizarro, on the other hand, with a very small group of others, when they arrived without any Priest or Catholic family at all, acted like satan towards the Incas. The Incas were actually only the royals of the population - and these they wiped right out. The rest of their people they were in the midst of wiping out, when Catholics arrived and struggled to end the genocide.

At the time, Spain was just getting over the last of their struggle with islam in their own borders. They suspected many of being muslims disguised as Catholics - because there had been some cases of such a thing. Pizarro did not want Catholics to join up with him, and tried to use resources from Spain while trying not to be followed by Spain's government.

In other cases of Conquestadors, such as men with Christopher Columbas that mutinied against his command, there were undoubtably men raised in some sort of Catholic upbringing - they suddenly regretted not bringing certain Clergy with them later, and seemed to believe the Faith they had previously showed disdain for, when they thought their final hours had arrived. Christopher Columbas felt forsaken by GOD for a short while, because the men had turned on him, done evil things, then temporarily made him unable to get to Confession.

I thought I needed to clarify that the Aztec culture was itself a suppression of native life (not just culture), and that Pizarro in no way cared for the Catholic faith.

[RobinHood3000]

How does Pizarro leaving Spain while it was a Catholic nation make him a non-Catholic? And despite your mentions of supporting evidence, you've yet to provide any scholarly resources concerning Pizarro's religion.

How is it you know the Aztecs did such things? Or, more accurately, how is it you know what they did so specifically? Yes, the Aztecs believed in human sacrifices, but then, burning people at the stake was fairly monstrous, too.

Actually, I think the reason Columbus' men mutinied was because their captain was geographically incompetent and had little to no idea what he was getting himself into.

[Stanislaw]

How does Pizarro leaving Spain while it was a Catholic nation make him a non-Catholic? And despite your mentions of supporting evidence, you've yet to provide any scholarly resources concerning Pizarro's religion.

Pizarro, to atleast be able to survive in Spain would have had to renounced any previous religion he may have practiced, and vocally declare that he was a catholic, however, he did not lead a very catholic life.


How is it you know the Aztecs did such things? Or, more accurately, how is it you know what they did so specifically? Yes, the Aztecs believed in human sacrifices, but then, burning people at the stake was fairly monstrous, too.

The aztecs, like many groups, recorded their 'victories' through a very odd form of writing, and primarily through paintings and commeroative objects.
an aside: Most of the witch hunting was carried out mainly by protestant groups (mainly english, and calvanist)


Actually, I think the reason Columbus' men mutinied was because their captain was geographically incompetent and had little to no idea what he was getting himself into.

:D There be the indies!...sir we haven't left port yet...Er yes I knew that, just practicing fer when we get there is all!

:D

[RobinHood3000]

Yes, I realize that Catholics weren't primarily responsible for witch-hunting--the point remains that atrocities do not limit themselves to indigenous/non-European peoples.

[Stanislaw]

Yes, I realize that Catholics weren't primarily responsible for witch-hunting--the point remains that atrocities do not limit themselves to indigenous/non-European peoples.

amen...anyone study WWII?

[Mililalil XXIV]

But why is turning it to the right to make a 13 (I only see it making a 3 by the way) the correct way to turn it, since the symbol of the anti-christ is an upturned cross, when looking for meanings in other symbols should we not turn them all upside down. This leads to my main point, if you turn the M upside down you get a W, now who could that refer to I wonder.
Because M is just a W hanging upside down like a bat in a devilish cave, and W is the equivalent to the sixth Hebrew letter, Waw, so that next we are going to hear that 9 is evil too! Now the 9th Hebrew letter is T.eyth, the nine teeth of the bat that sits on the gargoyle's shoulder while he soaks in math programs. The 9th letter in the English form of the Latin alphabet is I, and T.eyth is a variation of a T-sound, spelling out "I...T..." > "IT". Add the M back in, and you have the very MIT (ITself) upon which perches the bat. Here we turn the M upside down again, and are drawn by WIT to the bat cave, and there discover that the yellow (color of evil eyes) symbol on Batman is somewhat like a confused hybrid of M and W! Confused like rock music! "Music" begins with M, and when its "Rock Music", there be a sum of (count 'em if ye dun't b`lieve me) 9 letters!

Now this part gets a little more sophisticated - but just keep up with me now, ye darlingz!

That naughty letter T.eyth! That ninth character of upside-down 6 naughtiness! Why even now I can hear it clicking its teeth on the ninth day of the week, sounding so alike to T, yet denying the form of the Cross! So there you have it:
the McDonaldses recieved the wicked name, knowing full well it was led on by an upside down, cave-dwelling W, which equals Waw, equal to 6, which is an over-turned 9, the value of T.eyth, which looks completely different than Cross-shaped T, even though it sounds like an apostate from that phoneme.

Any one keeping track of the elusive 13?


- The cross of the pontiff - The cross that the pope carries with him is a broken cross it is the same design used in Satanism depicting Satan's victory over Christ

No Cross owned by any Pope was ever broken. Pure "pope" fiction!


- The Pope - The pope was prophecied in 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 "..the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"

No Pope was ever seated in the Temple! The muslims have alone had a great building upon that sight for many centuries now! First you accuse him of Mary worship, then of exalting himself over her! Make up your mind! :confused: ;) :nod: :rage: :goof:

[Whifflingpin]

" "The cross of the pontiff - The cross that the pope carries with him is a broken cross it is the same design used in Satanism depicting Satan's victory over Christ "

No Cross owned by any Pope was ever broken. Pure "pope" fiction!"

Absurdity but not pure fiction. I checked the link, and found that the cross in question was carried by Pope Paul VI. It was made from a naturally crooked branch, and I guess he used it as a symbol of humility, in contrast to the gilded crosses usually carried by Popes.

The fact that this is still quoted, three decades and popes later, shows that there are people who hate to spoil a good story for the sake of the truth.

[Mililalil XXIV]

" "The cross of the pontiff - The cross that the pope carries with him is a broken cross it is the same design used in Satanism depicting Satan's victory over Christ "

No Cross owned by any Pope was ever broken. Pure "pope" fiction!"

Absurdity but not pure fiction. I checked the link, and found that the cross in question was carried by Pope Paul VI. It was made from a naturally crooked branch, and I guess he used it as a symbol of humility, in contrast to the gilded crosses usually carried by Popes.

The fact that this is still quoted, three decades and popes later, shows that there are people who hate to spoil a good story for the sake of the truth.

Whifflingpin, I was not denying a Cross shaped as that one reffered to was - only Christian's second-hand evaluation of it as "broken". Whether bent, warped, or whatever - as real trees can often be imagined to have been in the case of real, practical crosses - that is not equal to a broken form. I'm glad you brought this up, though - when I give a late night answer, I sometimes pass on from posting after focusing on a single thing or so.

I quite enjoy your thoughtful analysis of things. Keep up the high energy effort.

[woeful painter]

I'm a Christian, but I consider the intial argument immensely obsurd. Not to mention how it undeniably only divides the whole population of this forum even more because of it's claims, all the while we should just all get along no matter what we believe in. I don't remember the need more over any requirement to shove this religion to anybody else's face. And *yipes* <re-reading the intial posts again>, these thoughts are wayward! Now do my thoughts make me heretic? Or have I now become a member of the Bad Santa club? :lol:

[Stanislaw]

I'm a Christian, but I consider the intial argument immensely obsurd. Not to mention how it undeniably only divides the whole population of this forum even more because of it's claims, all the while we should just all get along no matter what we believe in. I don't remember the need more over any requirement to shove this religion to anybody else's face. And *yipes* <re-reading the intial posts again>, these thoughts are wayward! Now do my thoughts make me heretic? Or have I now become a member of the Bad Santa club? :lol:


Satan is heatin 'is pokers fer you! :D just kidding, to question is to be human, to have faith is a hard thing in a world that seesm almost contrary to this notion, but don't worry...to be blind is also a crime. :cool:

[woeful painter]

Thanks, though I'd just rather keep my faith calmly as I always have :D. Just a quiet lay person performing my tasks rather than be a hyper extremist scaring the whole race away. But seriously, why need to shout it all out like this in here. One should instead be a great example of his belief with his living and works if he has any hope of encouraging other people to follow. Just yapping about it like this is kind of like...err how do you say? Quite boring if not irritating for most listeners. :(

If I put this up in my university, even our Theologians would faint out of its radicalness! :lol:

[Mililalil XXIV]

woeful painter wrote:
"But seriously, why need to shout it all out like this in here. One should instead be a great example of his belief with his living and works if he has any hope of encouraging other people to follow."

Why Christian does what he does, I don't know, but what he does (in many a case with many of his ideologies) has caused a lot of ignorant hysteria, and kept many from even looking fairly at Catholics.