how jealous I was!

[falling*moon]

Hello everyone,

What a REALLY Dark age we live in, how blind we have become to ridicule our own religions .. under what we called and invented “ Freedom of speech” . It’s something we should call “ freedom of killing values and morals”.. isn’t that right ??

Please, let us not turn what am saying here into Politics ..i want to talk about how we lost religion??

The religion which some of you considered it as a method .. and I consider it as a beautiful , peaceful way to show love to God and creatures ..


Why don’t we respect religion ??

I never go to church for some ideas in my head but I never thought of ridiculing or hurting anyone .. even if I did I never meant to or my language did not help either..!

You know how jealous I’m now out of the Muslim’s anger ??

{snip}

Prophet Mohammed was a man of peace.. read what Bernard Shaw had said;

"He must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness."

Shaw was not a Muslim and never cared for religion as we all know.. but also he was not hallucinating when he said that…

Look how much the Muslims love their prophet !!! In a time we are ridiculing Jesus and drawing him as a lazy God watching us from above the clouds without doing anything!

How could we be insensitive and say that about Jesus ?? ( whom by the way, I don’t believe in him as God but as a prophet according to his teachings).


How did we turn out to be like that ??? what happened to us ???

Ok ..you don’t believe in God.. fine… but leave him alone….respect those who believe..

Ok.. you don’t know if He exists.. so look for good books or good sites ..look for the truth ..and if you did not find info …you could ask…or.. at least….leave it alone…


I believe in God…

and I believe in all the Messengers… and am sorry about those drawings..

and I hope Muslims will forgive us coz we don’t love our religion like they do…

and we forgot how to defend our own beliefs ..

as a matter of SAD fact, most of us became more Materialistic ..and lost God’s love.. in our hearts..


Read about the prophets … read about their lives…Put your prejudices away and try to read about others..you may understand something.. I read one book about Mohammed and fell in love with him..



I suppose an Atheist to be a depressed person, who lost his contact with God. And made himself a God instead! ..

no matter what the reasons are… am sorry…but please respect those who still believe so they would respect what you Do NOT believe !!




love ya

Edited by Logos to remove mention of current politics.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I suppose an Atheist to be a depressed person, who lost his contact with God. And made himself a God instead! ..

I suppose someone who says such a thing to be under a profound opinionated argument. Have you any proof to support your claim that us atheists have "lost our way"? If you don't mind me asking, lost our way from what? Religion is just a popular belief, that's it. You can't prove their is a God of any sort, and please don't use the "you need faith" argument because it's flawless- when used in the context of accepting religion without proof, that is. Sure, I'll believe in something if you tell me I don't need any proof for it. Who wouldn't? That's a defense lawyer's dream. However, that's all religion is- a drug and a means of hallucination to distract people from the real world.

How is it that atheists are despressed, at least more so than the religious person? Is it because we are not "high" like those who are drugged up on religion are? Reality isn't always going to be flowers and fun, but it can be if the whole world is one big happy family with some God running everything. It's too bad it's not like that...

Atheists aren't losing contact with anything; it's the theists who are losing contact with something, and that is reality. Since when is it a good idea to accept the existence of a God without any sort of conclusive proof? Or perhaps it's just easier not to prove it at all? Instead of proving the existence of a God, they just say, "Well, you can't prove there ISN'T one." Well, let's see...I'm not the one being questioned, you are.

Atheists make themselves Gods, do they? All we're doing is looking at the facts. The facts say that the existence of God cannot be proven. We can't turn ourselves into something that doesn't exist.

Look, maybe some atheists are depressed. But the most depressing thing to me is someone who is so intellectually blind they will simply "follow the shepherd" and "join the flock" unquestionably. Do you want the truth? Fine. Stop looking at the world from a religious angle and realize that proof is the indicator of truth, not belief. I know you asked for this not to turn argumentative, but I see no reason not to challenge you on the above claim.

[Logos]

falling*moon, we can't have discussion of current politics here, and yes the cartoons of Muhammad are current politics.

Any more mention of them will be deleted. And please everybody remember to read the rules for this forum:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410

[falling*moon]

ok.. thanx again miss Logos..for being fair and reasonable..

as for you mr Dark clarity... am not replying now... i need to clear my thoughts before fighting with you ( something you like to do ) .. :)

but i will leave that Q for you to answer,,

you say there is no God...

ok ..YOU prove it ..!!




see ya..

thanx again Logos

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I've PM'd you regarding the matter. The only thing I have to say here is that the ball is in your court. You've pressed the theory, now it's time for you to validate it. Besides, theories of what ARE need validation. Theories of what ARE NOT validate themselves.

[Theshizznigg]

Ever since the times of Adam man has been divided amongst his bretheren.
I support the rights that people must have a religous belief, even if it is Atheism. I also support the rights to free praction of religion and religious ideals even in I don't agree with them.
I naturally worry for such people, but I cannot impose my religion on them, that doesn't achieve results.
What I don't agree with, is when members of a religion try to force that religion upon a person when that person is unwilling to accept that said religion.
And the idea that freedom of speech is an evil thing. It isn't.
Many ill's of the world stem from freedom of speech, but it is against moralitic standards, and humane decency when those rights are supressed, because by removing the freedom of speech you are thus forcing only your ideas, and your outlooks upon people.

Otherwise from that, good on you, this forum needs some constructive threads.

[Zippy]

falling*moon, we can't have discussion of current politics here, and yes the cartoons of Muhammad are current politics.

Just thought I'd pop into this discussion, not to comment specifically on the topic, but to ask why we cannot talk about politics but can talk about religion? Two topics that should never be discussed in polite society - ban them both from the site!

[Logos]

Just thought I'd pop into this discussion, not to comment specifically on the topic, but to ask why we cannot talk about politics but can talk about religion? Two topics that should never be discussed in polite society - ban them both from the site!

Now wouldn't that make things a little easier around here :)

Admin chooses to have a Religious *Texts* discussion area because there is so much related to *the texts* in Literature in general. Emphasis on texts that so many seem to forget.

Unfortunately, religion and politics are too interwoven, hence the need for (sometimes perceived harsh) moderation.

[Hazel-Ra]

I suppose an Atheist to be a depressed person, who lost his contact with God. And made himself a God instead!

I am insulted by this. You ask athiests not to attack religion, and yet you attack athiests!! Look in the mirror, sweetheart, before you attack others.

Aren't we all intitled to our opinions? And shouldn't we all, as good, honest people, respect the beliefs of others, regardless of our opinion??

[Zippy]

Admin chooses to have a Religious *Texts* discussion area because there is so much related to *the texts* in Literature in general.

I take your point but The Communist Manifesto and The Social Contract are both on the site. Both texts have had a profound influence on 20th and 21st Century politics. How do you enter a discussion on the texts without delving into modern politics?

Sigh - I don't envy you your job as moderator - who watches the watchmen?

Zippy.

[Whifflingpin]

"Admin chooses to have a Religious *Texts* discussion area because there is so much related to *the texts* in Literature in general. Emphasis on texts that so many seem to forget."

Then why not a political texts forum as well? Politics is as much the stuff of literature as religion.


OK - no matter. A proper question though, at what date, or by what criterion, does politics become "current?"

[Logos]

The Mods didn't make the rules nor conceive the spirit or intent of this entire site, which is basically dedicated to literature and poetry.

It is difficult and subjective as to what deems "current" politics, that's what us lowly Mods get to weigh :)

Sure the Social Contract and Communist Manifesto are political works and worthy of discussion here, but mention of issues like US foreign policy, or current conflict going on in the world for example is not acceptable discussion. There are other forums on the `net dedicated to that if that is what you want to talk about.

If anyone else has comments or questions about moderating, please use the PM function.

[Amra]

"I suppose someone who says such a thing to be under a profound opinionated argument. Have you any proof to support your claim that us atheists have "lost our way"? "

As far as I can read, he only stated his opinion, and said how he thinks of them. You don't need any proof of that. You claimed many things here about religious people that you have no proof of. HOw hypocritical is that?

Let's list all of them, shall we?

1."Religion is just a popular belief, that's it. "

Can you prove this? Just a popular belief? What if it is the only, ultimate truth?

2."However, that's all religion is- a drug and a means of hallucination to distract people from the real world. "

Really? You think this is not insulting? You don't think you need any proof to make claims like this?

3. "Is it because we are not "high" like those who are drugged up on religion are?"

Drugged up on religion? Wow. I mean for a person who gets offended that someone called atheists depressed, it surely is amazing how you respond.

4."Reality isn't always going to be flowers and fun, but it can be if the whole world is one big happy family with some God running everything. It's too bad it's not like that..."

Again..only your opinion. Maybe there is a God running everything, and it is precisly like that.

5."But the most depressing thing to me is someone who is so intellectually blind they will simply "follow the shepherd" and "join the flock" unquestionably. "

Intellectually blind? You really are giving us a lot of arguments here... :D

and so on...

I mean how ridiculus it is to ask for respect of your belief, be offended that someone expressed his impression of atheists in one sentence, and then come back and state all these accusations and insults to the other side. Seriously, how hypocritical can one be? After I had to go through all the insults, let's see what else you had to say.

"Sure, I'll believe in something if you tell me I don't need any proof for it. Who wouldn't? That's a defense lawyer's dream. However, that's all religion is- a drug and a means of hallucination to distract people from the real world. "

Why do you suppose the laws we invented are somehow perfect and unchangeable? Why do you think that we need to live based on proving something through a way we invented? What if there is a totally different way to approch things, and to find enough reason to believe in them by not going through the scientific method. It seems like you hold science so high, when it is merely something people invented, and it is limited by our intellect, by natural laws, and by our ability to reason through it. You can't expect God to be subjected to the same procedure, when we assume He has created us, and everything else on this planet. If you build a computer, do you suppose the computer could understand you better and reason through you? You look at the religion from a scientific point, and that is your right, but just because you can't put God under the scientific test, doesn't imply that He is non existent. It just means that the science cannot grasp him. At least, that is what it means to me. I don't care what you believe, or what proofs you need to be able to believe. That is your choice. God gave you the free will to be able to decide, and as muslims we believe that you cannot force someone into the religion, nor does God want that. So, feel free to believe whatever you want, but let others do the same, without calling them drugged up, intellecutally weak, and claim that they are hallucinating. The science has never made a claim that there is no God, nor can it ever do that. It simply has not touched on the subject, because it cannot do so. Also, the science has been wrong many other times, making factual claims:) that the Earth is flat, that we are in the center of the world, that the Earth doesn't move, blah blah, and then it changed its claims. God has never changed His claims. The Qur'an claims that everything in the galaxy moves. The science just came up with that a couple of hundred years ago. There is nothing in the Qu'ran that contradicts the science, nor has it made claims that have ever been proven wrong by your scientific method. So, don't come here saying that those who believe in God do not have enough proof. We do have more proof than there is necessary, and that is our decision. It is more absurd to believe that some molecule appeared on Earth all of a sudden by itself, than somehow found another molecule to combine and form a cell, and that cell somehow by itself started to devide itself and develop into a living thing, which then evolved into billion other species through DNA mutations that turned out perfectly fine. If this is your theory of evolution and existence, than I ask myself who is the one intelectually weak and drugged on.
I could go on about the flaws of your various claims in the post, but it is pointless...

[Amra]

Nevermind...

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo Alaikom
BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM

Today morning i pasted an answer here, and i dont see it, i think i didnt pass any limits or rules, my paste was all about religioun and and answer to athiests.

Falling moon i dont know why they didnt paste my answer, but i want to say that i respect u alot, and admire ur words alot. Thx alot.

Alhamdo LILLAH

Assalamo alaikom

[blp]

A question for the religious contributors: why do so many religious people get so angry and offended when someone attacks their religion non violently? You believe in a god who is all powerful, but apparently don't believe he's quite all powerful enough to look after himself and decide the right couirse when someone insults him. From the outside, this looks distinctly like a failure of faith.

[Amra]

"A question for the religious contributors: why do so many religious people get so angry and offended when someone attacks their religion non violently? You believe in a god who is all powerful, but apparently don't believe he's quite all powerful enough to look after himself and decide the right couirse when someone insults him. From the outside, this looks distinctly like a failure of faith."\


I hope admins will let me answer this, because it is obvious what the question refers to, so if they decide to erase my answe, then I suggest erasing the question as well..

here goes...
It has nothing to do with believing that God doesn't have enough power (estagfirullah). An attack on the person who preached the religion in a way of portraying him as a suicide bomber implies that his followers are just that; violent, disprespectful, uneducated peasants. That is the first reason people are offended. The second reason is that our Prophet is the person one loves the most. If someone would insult a member of your family in this matter, and publish lies about them, would you be upset? Would you react in any way? Would it bother you? Well, for a muslim, Prophet Mohammed a.s is more to us than even our own family. An insult directed to him is worse than any other insult. (except an insult towards Allah s.v.t, of course)

[blp]

To be honest, Amra, I'm not just talking about the current troubles. Christians have been killing people over this kind of thing for centuries and some of them still seem inclined that way.

The first post in this thread was rather lovely in a way in its evoked of a peace that passeth all understanding. Unfortunately, it was evoked with specific reference to a feeling of solidarity with religious people who defend their faith in a way that is far from peaceful. This is, as far as I understand it, against the teachings of most of the major religions and of secular pacifism. It also, unfortunately, plays right into the hands of the uneducated peasants stereotype.

If you hold nothing sacred, it gives you a certain objectivity. it doesn't mean you lack values - quite the opposite. Things can be judged on their merits, not any supposedly inate, inviolable quality. unfortunately, when people hold something sacred, they repeatedly seem to become willing and even eager to hate and hurt other people over it.

At the risk of sounding secularly pious, there's always an alternative and that's to talk these things out politely. If you think someone's said something untrue about you or someone you care about, you tell them your view. You don't threaten them and, unless the case can be proven, which it can't in religious matters, an apology is a moot point. The ability to express one's view is something I hold very dear, which is why I would never try to deny it to anyone else.

[Basil]

Sigh - I don't envy you your job as moderator - who watches the watchmen?
Zippy.Coast Guard

*nods knowingly*

[Fontainhas]

I cannot help but admire you for your fire. You certianly have something you believe in with all your strengh. I may agree or disagree, but that hardly matters.

[falling*moon]

(1) I knew I would regret these two lines I added about the atheists, how could I forget the presence of the Darkness in the forum?
Anyway.. am not here to discuss anyone in person..! and am sorry if I did just now ..


(2) You read the whole thing I wrote and decided to compare religion to drugs ? how beautiful …!

But is it true ?? believers know where they are going at least.. do you know where are YOU going??

We HAVE proofs to God’s existence.. from his revelations.. haven’t you heard of the Holy Books??

You think Jesus invented the Bible…and Mohammed ( the uneducated ) invented the Quran ??

If you read carefully, you will understand the purpose of our existence.. is to worship the true God.. Jesus said that ..and Mohammed said the same..
Jesus did not say worship me… neither did Mohammed..


(3) You want facts.. ok.. look at yourself..

Are you given a brain to act irresponsibly ?

What are the differences between us and the animals ?? if we are not worshiping that who created us … for what purpose are we here ???

no purpose,,??


Ok.. Why aren’t you pulling a cart ?? are you better than a horse.. ?? ;)


Those who do not believe in a God , believe in nothing .. they feel nothing…like drugs huh ?

God is there for us,, and we feel his love all the time. .. we feel everything.. not nothing..!


You see who lost the way ?


( 4) Am SORRY.. Atheists are not depressed…not all of them of course…. For you are cheerful ,I presume ? yes,, I can sense happiness in your letters my friend..
Maybe I misused the word.. for some atheists live their day and do not care to prepare for death…!


( Atheists make themselves Gods, do they?)

Yes,.. look at you .. the arrogant way you speak.. every letter you print screams ‘ who is the God?’ ‘ am the God’ ..!! I mean you in what I wrote, no one else..



( 5 ) by the way, your arrogance remind me of a story I read once, Do you know Pharaoh ? the Egyptian king who killed Israelis and forced them to worship him ,

when he said to Moses ; “ am the God’
Moses said; “ My God can make you live .. or die’
Pharaoh said arrogantly ; “ so do I ”
Moses said challengingly ; “ Ok.. God raises the Sun from the east.. Could you raise it from the West ?’
That is the God am talking about my friend.. even Pharaoh was HUSHED !!




(6) My God!.. look at the skies over your head.. the planets…everything ..do you think it’s there only to give you pleasure to write about ?? there is a Great force watching everything you say and do…

be careful my friend… everything scream God’s existence!



( they will simply "follow the shepherd" and "join the flock" unquestionably)

the shepherd knows at least where he is heading , at least, am a sheep following the shepherd Questionably, while you are another sheep not following .. ended up in the woods.. between the wolves! But don’t expect Robin the knight of the woods to help THEE!


(7) I will speak about myself here, even if I was a follower am not following blindly.. that’s why am here and every where.. I read again…till I reach what satisfy my longing for the truth..

I can’t abandon everything…inside I know there is something missing and I WILL find it..


( Stop looking at the world from a religious angle )

am not… my intelligence is telling me how weak I am in all this madness.. there is a Great power out there.. and I need my spiritual side to complete my physical side ..


( 8) .. if you don’t believe… it’s ok…

fine… my purpose here is to ask those who think the way you do to respect others.. and I will say the same about myself.. So am sorry if I offended anyone here.. after all ..no one is Perfect..

You are free,…. Am free… all of us are free to think.. but not free to harm others..!


I hope to get responses from believers please.. Am done with atheists ..i have nothing against them anyway..

I don’t want to talk about it again… please,.. if you have something pretty to add.. jump in anytime … you are welcome.. :nod:




Amra, most of what you say makes sense that's why i like to read all what you write..

thank you all.. :thumbs_up

[Xamonas Chegwe]

My previous comments have been removed following the removal of certain posts which I felt outside of the spirit of this forum.

[Logos]

To everyone:

If you are going to post to this part of the forums, you must be willing to subject yourself to other members points of views and opinions, which may not agree with yours.

[Whifflingpin]

"Why don’t we respect religion ??"
"look at yourself"

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Well, I am pleased to see that Falling Moon has taken a most potent offense to my comments. Out of chaos comes order, does it not?

In any case, my intention here was to defend atheists. It's just rebuttle, that's it. Don't say that I'm the bad guy because Falling Moon started the whole thing. I made a thread about JollyOllie's less than pleasing PM's the other day and was duly rideculed. Should Falling Moon not face the same punishment? I don't believe that an entire thread devoted to bashing atheism is the definition of respect or proper behavior.

Regarding my comments...I pride myself in my ability to speak my mind. Everything I have said is exactly how I feel, which is way better than being fake. I will not stop posting what I feel for the sake of someone not liking my opinions and consequently saying "my feewings are hurt." If your feelings will be hurt, then don't post. If anyone here is really that fragile that they can't take some legitimate ridecule, then don't play with the big boys. And please, don't post with a disclaimer that reads "I don't want to start an argument." Why the hell do you post your opinion? Do you really think every single person agrees with you completely? Debate is healthy, being too fragile to be a part of it is not.

[rachel]

I do not believe that argument done apart from honoring one another as human beings worthy of respect and dignity will do much except end up in a verbal fist fight.
All of you are so dear, just speak what is on your heart without wounding the others' hearts. It isn't difficult.
Nothing anyone says will change my mind that God IS and is the rewarder of those earnestly seeking Him I don't pretend to understand HIm, why He does what He does and I have been very angry with Him. But having searched and searched somemore I believe He exists, that He is worthy of my devotion and honor and my heart is His.
But it is very interesting to read what each of you feel, you are all so passionate and intelligent and have really valid points that I ponder late at night
The thing is to me at least God doesn't need any of us to fight His battles. I cannot even fight mine. But Jesus did say that we are to love God with all that is in us and love one another as ourself. Perhaps the reason a lot of us get ticked is we don't really like ourselves much and the other guys gets the result. Who knows.

[Whifflingpin]

"The thing is to me at least God doesn't need any of us to fight His battles."
God does not need anything, of course, but, to Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda's purpose in creating us was so that we might help him in his battle with evil. This is the task He has given us.
Be it said, however, that using God's name to sow dissension is actually doing the work of the evil one, so your good words, dear Rachel, are like a flaming sword in God's service.

.

[blp]

(1) I knew I would regret these two lines I added about the atheists, how could I forget the presence of the Darkness in the forum?
Anyway.. am not here to discuss anyone in person..! and am sorry if I did just now ..


(2) You read the whole thing I wrote and decided to compare religion to drugs ? how beautiful …!

But is it true ?? believers know where they are going at least.. do you know where are YOU going??

We HAVE proofs to God’s existence.. from his revelations.. haven’t you heard of the Holy Books??

You think Jesus invented the Bible…and Mohammed ( the uneducated ) invented the Quran ??

If you read carefully, you will understand the purpose of our existence.. is to worship the true God.. Jesus said that ..and Mohammed said the same..
Jesus did not say worship me… neither did Mohammed..


(3) You want facts.. ok.. look at yourself..

Are you given a brain to act irresponsibly ?

What are the differences between us and the animals ?? if we are not worshiping that who created us … for what purpose are we here ???

no purpose,,??


Ok.. Why aren’t you pulling a cart ?? are you better than a horse.. ?? ;)


Those who do not believe in a God , believe in nothing .. they feel nothing…like drugs huh ?

God is there for us,, and we feel his love all the time. .. we feel everything.. not nothing..!


You see who lost the way ?


( 4) Am SORRY.. Atheists are not depressed…not all of them of course…. For you are cheerful ,I presume ? yes,, I can sense happiness in your letters my friend..
Maybe I misused the word.. for some atheists live their day and do not care to prepare for death…!


( Atheists make themselves Gods, do they?)

Yes,.. look at you .. the arrogant way you speak.. every letter you print screams ‘ who is the God?’ ‘ am the God’ ..!! I mean you in what I wrote, no one else..



( 5 ) by the way, your arrogance remind me of a story I read once, Do you know Pharaoh ? the Egyptian king who killed Israelis and forced them to worship him ,

when he said to Moses ; “ am the God’
Moses said; “ My God can make you live .. or die’
Pharaoh said arrogantly ; “ so do I ”
Moses said challengingly ; “ Ok.. God raises the Sun from the east.. Could you raise it from the West ?’
That is the God am talking about my friend.. even Pharaoh was HUSHED !!




(6) My God!.. look at the skies over your head.. the planets…everything ..do you think it’s there only to give you pleasure to write about ?? there is a Great force watching everything you say and do…

be careful my friend… everything scream God’s existence!



( they will simply "follow the shepherd" and "join the flock" unquestionably)

the shepherd knows at least where he is heading , at least, am a sheep following the shepherd Questionably, while you are another sheep not following .. ended up in the woods.. between the wolves! But don’t expect Robin the knight of the woods to help THEE!


Scarey stuff.

[Hazel-Ra]

Falling Moon, you contradicted yourself in point 2. We are aware that the holy books you speak of were created by people, and not Jesus or Mohammed, so how are these proof of God's existence?? They were written by man. Anyway, that's beside the point. Why is it that it is so bad for someone else to have an opinion different to yours? I do not view myself as "God." I view myself as an honest, working person with a good sense of humour, a good set of friends, and generally a person lucky enough to have a good life. Do you really look down on this so much?

Don't get me wrong, I do not seek the approval of those I don't even know. I just think it is wrong to criticize others without knowing them. Perhaps this is judgemental of me, rather than you. I suppose just like everyone you are entitled to your opinion. But if you attack others do not be surprised when they defend themselves.

[blp]

FallingMoon, you sound like someon who has been terrorised into believing in God. You are now trying to terrorise the rest of us. The rhetoric of belief is riddled with this. We hear both that God offers us bountiful love and peace and that he's someone to be very afraid of. Carrot and stick manipulation.

I have only ever heard from people that there is a god. Nothing in my experience has given me any evidence of a god's existence. If there is a god, he or she gave me the mind that does not perceive any reason to believe in her or him. Wouldn't he or she consider it a misuse of that mind if I allowed myself to be bullied into believing in her or him despite my own perception? This way madness lies.

[Hazel-Ra]

FallingMoon, you sound like someon who has been terrorised into believing in God. You are now trying to terrorise the rest of us. The rhetoric of belief is riddled with this. We hear both that God offers us bountiful love and peace and that he's someone to be very afraid of. Carrot and stick manipulation.

I have only ever heard from people that there is a god. Nothing in my experience has given me any evidence of a god's existence. If there is a god, he or she gave me the mind that does not perceive any reason to believe in her or him. Wouldn't he or she consider it a misuse of that mind if I allowed myself to be bullied into believing in her or him despite my own perception? This way madness lies.
Good one, I agree whole-heartedly.

[Amra]

We are aware that the holy books you speak of were created by people, and not Jesus or Mohammed, so how are these proof of God's existence?? They were written by man.

Wrong. Muslims do not believe that the holy Qur'an was created by man. It is the Word of God, as dictated to the angel Gabrial and revealed to Prophet Mohammed a.s. If you don't accept that, then of course you can go ahead and make the rest of your point basing it on that premise. But, we don't start of from that premise in the first place, and of course, that is why our beliefs will differ.


Why is it that it is so bad for someone else to have an opinion different to yours? I do not view myself as "God.

I don't think anyone thinks that you shouldn't have an opinion. I think that the whole argument started BECAUSE fallingmoon expressed on opinion. Don't you think it is absurd for you to ask for the right to have an opinion when in this topic fallingmoon is the one attacked for having one himself. He said that he thinks of an atheist as a depressed person believing himself to be a god. That's it. Everything else that followed was an attack on him for saying that. Kind of hypocritical to ask for an opinion but refuse others the same right.


I have only ever heard from people that there is a god.

And I have only heard from people that there isn't one. However, I see proof of His existence everywhere. I imagine you don't know who created the Earth, and the the galaxy, and human beings, and why we exist, and what will happen to us when we die? Do you know the answers to any of that? You don't. I KNOW them, because they are in the holy Qur'an given to us by the Almighty God. That is the only proof that I need. The science has not come close to explaining any of those phenomena, so there is no reason for me to hold them to any particula high esteem, other than the one they deserve and that I don't deny. However, I have all the proof that I need, and nothing in this world could be more reasonable to me than that belief. The only thing that makes sense, and the only thing that is real in this universe, is the existence of God, and the life that will come after this. I believe in that as to be the truth the same as I believe to be typing this post to you. What kind of proof do you need to believe in God? Who decided that the existence of the Earth and human beings is not enough proof? There is no other explanation for it, yet people seek other proof. Well, feel free to do so, but don't claim that there is no proof, because there may not be proof that you seek/expect/want, but being convinced is a subjective feeling, and that is why the decision should be left to every individual to make.

As for me, I have been an atheist myself, and I have argued on the opposite side for a long time :), but I am very grateful that God Almighty guided me through that and accepted my repentance. I think that every human being deed down inside believes, but for one reason or the other, doesn't want to express that... This is just my opinion, which may be wrong, but even Satan himself wasn't damned because he didn't believe in God. He was damned because of his arrogance, and because of refusing to submit himself to any other power. Many people have that same issue, and they think that it would be degrading for them, human beings with free will and intelect, to submit themselves to any other power. But, they fail to realize that if you didn't submit yourself to God, then you have submited yourself to many other, less worthy things and powers. Believing in God is setting yourself free from everything else, and I have come to know that feeling, and wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. It is the only truth for me.

[Amra]

And here is the verse from the holy Qur'an that tells us how to deal with atheists....

Bismillah...

Surah 109. The Disbelievers, Atheists


1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I wouldn't classify Falling Moon's remarks as following the statement, "To you be your way, and to me mine."They were rather unprovoked, actually. Oh well, let the discussion continue.

"Don't you think it is absurd for you to ask for the right to have an opinion when in this topic fallingmoon is the one attacked for having one himself."

He started it, now let him take the heat for it. He wasn't attacked, and why don't you go look at who started this thread in the first place?

[Amra]

He started it, now let him take the heat for it. He wasn't attacked, and why don't you go look at who started this thread in the first place?

I don't think you understood what I said. I said that he is being attacked for having an opinion, and at the same time the others are asking to for a right to have an opinion. If he only expressed his opinion about the atheists, why do you accuse him of anything else?

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I suppose an Atheist to be a depressed person, who lost his contact with God. And made himself a God instead! ..

Who starts a thread like this? I read this and took it as an unprovoked attack. Did anybody start a thread bashing religion? I think not, and to make one bashing atheism deserves to be rideculed and insulted.

Ok, here's my point: Falling Moon started a thread which insulted Atheistic thought. This is a far stretch from stating an opinion, because the phrase "stating an opinion" has the connotation of a nice, peaceful gesture. The quote above was clearly biased. Saying that Falling Moon "stated his opinion" is a gross underestimation of what was posted.

So, he insulted a belief. Do we then have a right to insult him in a similar manner? We sure as hell do. Like I said, if you're going to throw things out then be prepared to get something back. My "accusations" are duly justified and I see no reason not to make them.

Others want an opinion because they want to use it CORRECTLY. Masquerading insult with opinion is misuse of opinion, like what was done by Falling Moon. In that case, he shouldn't get an opinion because he abused it. The "others" want the opportunity to use an opinion legitimately, which is to state an opinion in a mature manner. The quote above is an example of something that is not mature, especially since it was said in the first post of a thread. Yeah, he's deserving what's happening.

[Scheherazade]

Insulting others is not a right and will not be tolerated on this Forum.

Since this thread has outlived its purpose, it will now be closed!