the soul...or whatever we are

[my own mind]

hello to whoever reads this. I just had a question about pertaining to the soul (or whatever that phenomenon is that is not a part of us in the typical physical sense). now i know that a lot of people do not believe in a soul or any type of afterlife, so when you respond to this, please keep in mind that this topic is under the assumption that there is a soul, and that there is more to life than the physical reality we see and experience. I just don't want this to spiral into a debate over whether or not souls exist etc.

that being said, I wanted to know your thoughts on a souls existence BEFORE we are born. There are enough religious thoughts and writings depicting what will happen to us (our souls or whatever name you want to give it) AFTER we die...but what (if any) where we BEFORE our existence on earth? Is our brought into existence when we are born? or did it existence somewhere else (slightly different perhaps) before we where we born? and if it did exist before our physical birth, what was it like and how do we not remember it?

reincarnation explains some things about the soul, but i'm not sure if it sufficiently answers the 1st cause philosophy of it (when you boil the whole idea down is the concept of what happened BEFORE our very first existence of reincarnation). I have quite a few thoughts on this idea...but I really wanted to hear someone else's views without interjecting my own thoughts into the question. I'm completely open to any types of thoughts, beliefs, answers, or even more questions...so please feel free to say anything.

thanks alot to whoever takes the time to respond. (and just keep in mind that this whole thread is under the assumption that souls do exist, even though i know that is only a possibility).

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Does that mean that those of us that believe that there is no soul - nothing beyond the physical workings of our brains - are banned from replying to this thread?

Perhaps I should start a second thread on atheism, limited to those that accept that there are no gods in the universe. Or how about a discussion on whether Harry Potter is the greatest series of books ever written, limited to those that accept that they are exactly that!

Kindly explain what kind of a discussion you intend to start, when limiting it to those that agree with your point of view from the outset? Or are you afraid of real debate on the subject?

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Arguments are like clay in that they are either hardened when placed in an oven or break because of the heat. Why would you ban opposition to your stance? Is it because you have no evidence for it and would like it much more for people not to find that out? Or perhaps your inability to argue effectively has given you inclinations of excluding any and all opposing views for fear that you will actually have to debate? Whatever the reason, let it go. If your argument holds water, you and the rest of us will know soon enough. If it doesn't, then why bother defending it? Either way, debate is the only way of exposing the true nature of things. Don't take that away from all of us because you might be afraid that your view may not be right or not what you think it is.

[Logos]

Xamonas Chegwe, I know you like to argue but c'mon, give the OP a break, they made it pretty clear as to what kind of things they want to discuss, they asked some specific questions, and it's not a case of "agreement" or not. There is nothing wrong with an OP framing their topic under such terms. If you don't like it you don't have to respond disingenuously.

[Virgil]

As one who has insisted on empirically based arguments on other threads, you may be surprised to find that I believe in the soul. Those empircal arguments are on issues of the tangilble world. This is an issue of faith and belief. There is no way to prove it, but I've come to believe in the soul. Call it intuition. I think we are made up of more than just the material parts. Although I've never considered it but have heard of the thought that our soul is around in whatever metaphysical place it might reside before we are born. My intuition, however, rejects that. I do not believe either in reincarnation. I think we are all individuals, and that includes our soul. Whatever magical, mystical, devine event occurs at conception, that is when a soul is endowed to a person.

Nice thought for a new thread, Mind. Welcome to lit net. I look forward to other's thoughts.

[my own mind]

hello again, sorry if i worded the topic or discussion incorrectly or not to your liking, but i just wanted some thoughts on the soul before physical birth. let me make this perfectly clear: I am not in any way afraid of discussing any issue to the fullest, especially on whether or not the soul exists. I have simply nearly exhausted this subject for countless hours with countless people. i just wanted the discussion to steer away from this subject since we CANNOT prove and WILL NOT prove the existence of souls. If you want to discuss this topic please feel free. I do not want to "ban" any sort of discussion on anything because I am open to absolutely any ideas/theries out there. I simply wanted to hold a discussion on the basis that a soul does exist, since we cannot prove this. but if you want to discuss this first, and then what happens to the soul (if we even reach any kind of conclusion that one might exist) after that is fine with me. sorry for the feeling of exclusion to those who hold similar beliefs. Personally, as an example, i would discuss the the mental capacity of rocks with someone who held this belief, even if i thought this idea absurd. please do not hold back any kind of response because you think that i am talking to any sort of group or ideas in particular. please respond, even if it on the existence of souls itself. thanks

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Xamonas Chegwe, I know you like to argue but c'mon, give the OP a break, they made it pretty clear as to what kind of things they want to discuss, they asked some specific questions, and it's not a case of "agreement" or not. There is nothing wrong with an OP framing their topic under such terms. If you don't like it you don't have to respond disingenuously.

Disingenuous: Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one does.

Not guilty on all counts. I was forthright and candid, very sincere, and certainly didn't feign any lack of knowledge. My examples were intended to highlight the absurdity of limiting a topic to replies that assume it's central premise. I have always tried to be respectful when posting in this section especially. I understand peoples sensibilities and do not wish to give offence. however, I feel that, that accepted, those with opposing viewpoints should be free to voice their opinions just as much as anyone.

My Own Mind - It seems that, on reflection, you agree with this (judging by your last post). I have no wish to criticise your, or anyone else's views. But I have personal ideas regarding souls which i consider might be of interest to others. If they are not - those others are quite within their rights to ignore them. I object to posts being limited to those holding certain views however and consider this counterproductive.

I apologise for being sarcastic. That was the word you were looking for Logos, sarcastic, not disingenuous. I'm not at all clever enough to be disingenuous! ;)

[my own mind]

to Xamonas Chegwe:

let me say again that i am open to absolutely open to anything, and let me just say quick that there isn't a thing i can think of that you could say that would offend me in any way, shape, or form, even if it is completely personal. so please say whatever you are thinking, even if you think i won't like it or agree with it.
that being said, i would love to hear Xamonas Chegwe's "personal ideas regarding the soul."
Honestly, I love to debate and argue, but i also equally enjoy the pure unfounded thoughts of others to contemplate. so please say whatever you want, and have fun doing it.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

My own mind,

I wouldn't dream of being intentionally offensive, and certainly not personally offensive. The worst you'll get from me is a little sarcasm from time to time. This is always intended humourously and not hurtfully, I can assure you. Sometimes the windmills that people erect are a little too large not to be shied at!

I shall leave my views on the soul for now, if you don't mind. It's getting late here and I need my beauty sleep more than most. I am glad that you reconsidered your stance on restricting the discussion. It was big of you. I look forward to an interesting debate. The topic deserves to provide one.

[Logos]

I apologise for being sarcastic. That was the word you were looking for Logos, sarcastic, not disingenuous. I'm not at all clever enough to be disingenuous! ;)

/duly noted and chastened ;)

[Nightshade]

Where does the soul come from? Now thats an interesting question.
As I belive that your soul goes smwher after yopur dead it follows it had to come from somewher right? Truth is I havent thought about it for years, when I was little I belived that sould sat about in heaven waiting to be born, and that when we slept we visited it again. But as there is no religous backup for that cant say I belive that anymore. I suppose I agree with Virigil in that the soul comes into exsistance with life. But actually thinking abou it your soul exsist with th first breath you draw. Acccording to my religon if a baby(or anyliving thing) draws a single breath and then dies it goes to heaven, therefe ore it has a soul. therefore I suppose you have a soul from when you draw breath because everything that has a soul is promised the chance of heaven.
wait a minue that didnt explain where the soul comes from, does it?
Ok presupposing God and Divine Knowledge exsist. And presupposing that this means that way back before the Creation of Adam, God knew the lives and souls of everyone of us, and everything we would choose to do or think, or change.
Then I suppose that each soul exsists as a pre-exsistance. I mean it doesnt exsist as such except in the knowledge that it definetly will exsist and therefore does exsist but not activeley.
Sort of like the Day of Judgment already exsists in somepeople's minds because they know it will exsist and will happen and its sort of a pre-history.
Or in a differant anology last day of school, you know its going to happen but because it hasnt happened already t dosn't mean it doesnt exsist in a way just just pre exsists.

:D
Now if anyone could make sense of that Id like to talk to then ((g)) ;)

[Virgil]

But if souls pre-exist, as you phrased it, how come we don't have any memory (at least I don't) of it?

*FLASH. Just remembered Wordsworth poem on this subject: "Ode: Intimations on Immortality".* Too long to quote the entire thing, but here's a critical stanza:

Stanza V, From Ode: Intimations on Immortality by William Wordsworth

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy,
But He beholds the light, and whence it flows,
He sees it in his joy;
The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature's Priest,
And by the vision splendid
Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into the light of common day.

So Wordsworth believes the soul is remembered in infancy but the memory disappates as we get older.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I have two different theories regarding souls: the one that I believe and hope is wrong and the one I would love to believe but believe is wrong.

I am only going to give you one of them tonight. And, perversely, it's the one that I don't believe in! It has no bearing in logic or scientific fact. It's really nothing more than a hope against hope for continuance. If you like, it's how I think any kind of life after death might work. I will present it in the form of a short narrative.


Consciousness pervades the universe. Everything; every star, planet, asteroid, rock, dust particle, atom, electron and quark is infused with it. All is one (the mind of Brahma if you prefer - or even god), a single unifying knowledge of self that the universe as a whole possesses. This doesn't mean that the components of the universe are aware. An asteroid alone has no consciousness of any kind; has neither knowledge nor feeling. It is the universe as a whole that is completely self-aware; it knowing the position, status and motion of everything that it contains.

Now for the soul part. This consciousness concentrates most strongly in living things and most strongly of all, in their brains. At a certain point, when a creature becomes sufficiently intelligent, it's brain manages to trap a part of the universal consciousness (in a similar way to a black hole trapping light) and that creature, that individual, that person, becomes self-aware. But in that process, it loses contact with the rest of the universal mind from which it's awareness sprang. The person is aware but alone. It/he/she has no knowledge of anything but themself.

On death, or at the point where, through injury or disease, the brain ceases to be sufficiently strong to hold a portion of consciousness to itself, the soul (ie. the trapped portion of consciousness) is released and the person's identity rejoins the universal whole. At this point, the individuality is lost in much the same way as a raindrop falling into an ocean ceases to be a discrete thing.

As I said, this is not what I believe. It is just what I would like to be true. It is my rationale for believing in any kind of possibility of a life after death without needing to adhere to any religious faith in an anthropomorphic god. It's a hope against hope that keeps me going from day to day. :nod:

Tomorrow, or the next day, I will post what I really believe is the nature of the soul. It's nowhere near as cheerful, be warned!

[Virgil]

Very nice, Xamonas.

At a certain point, when a creature becomes sufficiently intelligent, it's brain manages to trap a part of the universal consciousness (in a similar way to a black hole trapping light) and that creature, that individual, that person, becomes self-aware.

Very imaginative. I don't believe I've ever heard it put that way.

[Green Lady]

my own mind,

When I saw that you were asking about souls existing before earth, I decided I should put in a few words. I understand that you wanted to limit the discussion to only those that believed in a soul or the equivilant in the beginning seeing as you wanted to just get that one answer and weren't looking for a debate of whether it exists or not. It seems a few people wanted to get into that though, huh? And I understand that too, but you were looking for specific answers. So, supposing that the soul is real, which I do believe, I also believe that it existed before. I've never been able to go into detail about these things though so don't ask me to delve too much into it. To put it short as possible though, we were created first as souls and given a body later. Any questions?

[water lily]

All right. So regardless of whether the soul is created out of nothing, or whether it comes from "somewhere", when does it enter the body? At conception, at birth? And is it subejct to change throughout our lives? Can it mature? Questions Questions!

ps. xamonas chegwe, very interesting. kinda reminds me of the whole Jedi thing.

[my own mind]

yeah i have couple questions yet (or interesting thoughts, whichever you would like to call it): if our soul exists before we are physically born, and is part of a conscience whole (god, the universe, etc.), does our individual soul have free will at this point? or are we simply part of the "will of god", with no real free will until we are physically born? but if we did have free will as a soul existing before our physical birth, were we allowed the conscience choice to come to earth, with the before knowledge that we would have no knowledge of our soul's existence before physical birth?

this is why i somewhat believe in the idea of reincarnation. when we die, our soul is given the conscience choice of if we want to return to earth and live another life without the knowledge of any existence before. but upon death, our experiences from all of our soul's "different lives" combine, providing a better understanding, due to experience, of "god".

these are just a few thoughts of mine on this subject. i would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this, and maybe some thoughts on WHY we would make a conscience choice to leave a perfect unified being, and come to a place with much pain and suffering, even if it is to know that being better. i think we could gain the same, and probably much more, knowledge of "god" without ever having to come to earth. so why would anyone make that choice if given it?

[Green Lady]

To water lily, I really couldn't say when the soul enters the body. It's actually something I was wondering myself, just a couple of hours ago. Weird coincidence...

Anyway, I believe we did have the choice to have a body and come to earth. We even chose our own weaknesses. Strange to think of it like that, but doesn't it make sense that since we are our own enemies at times, we could have chosen our weaknesses in the beginning? So, we did and do have free will.

According to my beliefs, and you can ignore this or not doesn't change the fact that I do believe it, there were two plans set out in the pre-earth or pre-mortal life. One was that we would go to earth with our free will intact and some would not make it back, but it was our own choice after being tested. Then there was the option of having no free will on earth but everyone would come back to God. This reassured your return, but what would be the point of returning if you didn't progress on the journey due to lack of agency (that sort of answers your other question, water lily)? Some chose free will but there were still those that chose the other plan. Those that chose the other, never will recieve a body. There's a bit more to the whole thing, but I prefer to give more when asked.

[Fontainhas]

Does that mean that those of us that believe that there is no soul - nothing beyond the physical workings of our brains - are banned from replying to this thread?

Perhaps I should start a second thread on atheism, limited to those that accept that there are no gods in the universe. Or how about a discussion on whether Harry Potter is the greatest series of books ever written, limited to those that accept that they are exactly that!

Kindly explain what kind of a discussion you intend to start, when limiting it to those that agree with your point of view from the outset? Or are you afraid of real debate on the subject?

Hum I agree. This thread is not explaines in a manner that I can respond to. I believe he is afraid that this will generate a debate. I do not think that there is a very easy way out of this subject though. I actually like it.

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo alaikom
BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM

I would like to leave this link for you guys, its interesting and talk about secret of material, and soul.
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=16328

And u can check see this video in parts on this link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/arabic/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1271

Alhamdo LILLAH, thank ALLAH
Salam

[Theshizznigg]

Firstly I'd like to state that I am a Christian, and so fundamentally believe in the existence of the soul.

As related to your question about the origin of the soul.
If we follow mythological, and even Amadeus theory, then we come to the conclusion the God has created every soul in the universe, and is the only one with the power to truly destroy them.
After the creation of a soul, he leaves them in the Guff, or well of souls tending to them until it is their essential moment to be born.
When that time finally comes that person in born into the world, and leaves when they finally die.
In ancient times before the arrival of Christ, those that believed in Jehovah, or the god of Israel, where carried away to a place called Abraham's bosom.
A sort of limbo like existence until Christ managed to conquer death, and thus ended the old age, and brought forth a new.
This is niether religiously fervered or charged. It is essentially a statement of the facts from a christian point of view, and not common amongst even christians.

[Orionsbelt]

Excellant Xamonas! Interestly, In the story of Adam and Eve God says to Adam "who told you that you were naked?" --- Self awareness and the "fall of man" -- separation. At least as far as we know... There is wisdom in these old stories but it seems it is only available to the poets.. anyway, when you start to talk about individuals.. as souls or bodies or whatever you have left the transcendant. The first cause is the moment of separation. There is no doubt to me however that an energy, an impulse, an inclination, whatever that moves matter in ways that are explained no other way. I wonder at the trees. These are the simple examples. The biomechanics says the warm sun draws the water up from the roots and initiates the other mechanisms for the spring awakening. What changes when a tree dies in the winter? Where has the impulse gone? Why have all the cells lost the impulse together? Does the tree have a simple kind of soul? Are all of these impulses gathered in one tub as reincarnation suggests? Does the tub just get bigger? Is evolution the way to enhance or stimulate the injection of more stuff into the field of space and time. Is continuation in anyform the point? Should I stop hear or continue be amazed? Anyway cool thoughts.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I'd forgotten about this thread. I guess it's time to post what I really think the soul is. I'm afraid it's a lot bleaker than my last concept (which, as I said, is not what I believe, just what I sort of hope).

The soul does not exist. All that we are, our conception of self, is nothing more than the neurons in our brains firing. Once they stop, we stop. That's it. Finality.

Is this depressing? A little, yes. But it's a bloody good reason to enjoy life while we've got it instead of sitting around, restraining our bestial urges, in the hope of something better in the next life. Live those bestial urges! Celebrate your lives!

They're all we have.

[Jewels83]

I'd forgotten about this thread. I guess it's time to post what I really think the soul is. I'm afraid it's a lot bleaker than my last concept (which, as I said, is not what I believe, just what I sort of hope).

The soul does not exist. All that we are, our conception of self, is nothing more than the neurons in our brains firing. Once they stop, we stop. That's it. Finality.

Is this depressing? A little, yes. But it's a bloody good reason to enjoy life while we've got it instead of sitting around, restraining our bestial urges, in the hope of something better in the next life. Live those bestial urges! Celebrate your lives!

They're all we have.

No wonder why the number of athiest wannabe's (and "athiests" for that matter) is increasing!!..But i really do admire your honesty..im sure you have given yourself a thousand other reasons though to be an "athiest" and to refuse the concept of the "soul"..i might go check out the "athiests" thread..may be ill find some of your posts there...

P.S: nice word choice.."bestial" sounded quite sincere...i should go get some of that!!!

[Ancestor]

I'd forgotten about this thread. I guess it's time to post what I really think the soul is. I'm afraid it's a lot bleaker than my last concept (which, as I said, is not what I believe, just what I sort of hope).

The soul does not exist. All that we are, our conception of self, is nothing more than the neurons in our brains firing. Once they stop, we stop. That's it. Finality.

Is this depressing? A little, yes. But it's a bloody good reason to enjoy life while we've got it instead of sitting around, restraining our bestial urges, in the hope of something better in the next life. Live those bestial urges! Celebrate your lives!

They're all we have.

What is your proof that the soul and spirit do not exist? Before you ask I shall answer no I do not have proof of the existence of a soul and spirit. I do know that there is a energy that radiates from the human body. But there is no scientific method to prove to you that it is true. Truth is in the eye of beholder although I find it fascinating you are okay with believing in nothingness after death. I am not trying to be sarcastic or rude to you because I truly do find it fascinating. Mainly being curious here as well and hope I did not offend you.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Ancestor,

No offence taken. I believe in nothing while hoping for something. In the words of Mel Brooks, "Hope for the Best. Expect the worst Life is a play. We're unrehearsed."

Believing in nothing hereafter can be very liberating. It means that one must look for ones pleasures in this world and it removes the weight of divine judgement for those pleasures. Ones own conscience is the only restraint.

It can also, if you project that belief onto others, result in a very moral outlook; if you truly believe that the person you are wronging has no second chance, no afterlife, it means that your act in wronging them has a finality and irreversibility that those of a religious outlook wouldn't necessarily perceive.

In the main, atheists tend to be neither ascetics nor suicide bombers. There are exceptions of course, Hitler for example, but I think he had a lot more issues than just atheism!

[Ancestor]

Ancestor,

No offence taken. I believe in nothing while hoping for something. In the words of Mel Brooks, "Hope for the Best. Expect the worst Life is a play. We're unrehearsed."

Believing in nothing hereafter can be very liberating. It means that one must look for ones pleasures in this world and it removes the weight of divine judgement for those pleasures. Ones own conscience is the only restraint.

It can also, if you project that belief onto others, result in a very moral outlook; if you truly believe that the person you are wronging has no second chance, no afterlife, it means that your act in wronging them has a finality and irreversibility that those of a religious outlook wouldn't necessarily perceive.

In the main, atheists tend to be neither ascetics nor suicide bombers. There are exceptions of course, Hitler for example, but I think he had a lot more issues than just atheism!

Thank you answering my question and I am glad that I did not offend you. I found that to be a interest outlook you have and one that enlightened me. I had not thought about it that way before. Afterlife has a different meaning for me then most of the religions define it. I guess that is because my faith is not considered a religion in most people's eyes. But that is okay because we are all different, thank goodness. Although I am tired of people putting down atheist ideals because I would not someone to put down mine. I believe we should do onto others as we would have others do onto us. Also had not heard that about Hitler before although not really surprised since he acted like he wanted to be God. Again thank you for expanding my knowledge. ;)

[Theshizznigg]

People are welcome to worship their own beliefs, (in my opinion) as long as those beliefs are not forced onto other people.
Atheism is the same, though it is a very bleak outlook on life, (In my views.) and brings to mind the books of Ecclesiastes to mind.
King Solomon wrote this book when he had seperated himself from Gods grace, and unfortunately for many, the books words, ring too true about human life without the existence of God.
Take care, Shizz.

"The Creation Of The Universe, was made possible, by a grant from Texas Instruments." - PBS

[Evergreenleaf]

The soul does not exist. All that we are, our conception of self, is nothing more than the neurons in our brains firing. Once they stop, we stop. That's it. Finality.
Incredible. Those are almost the exact words that I use to describe my belief. "Conception of self" is a nice way to put it, never thought of that. Well-said, Xamonas. And I don't think it's a depressing idea, it's realistic. Of course, I'm biased.

As to the question at hand, I can give ideas even though I don't believe them. If there is a soul before birth, maybe it is a reincarnation deal where the soul just skips from one body to another instantly. Maybe it waits in an otherworld-type place until another body is ready for it. Maybe souls just kind of float around until there is a body for them. Maybe they are in the ground, or in rocks, or plants, or animals. Maybe... hm, sorry, that's all I've got. Those are just some ideas; I don't believe them. Maybe other people do.

[Mililalil XXIV]

When a worm is cut in half, does more than one half ever retain the life principle?

[Theshizznigg]

I'll be the first to admit it, I've made, make lots of mistakes, in my life.

But the thought that Me, I, Myself, was the design of my own mental capacities, my feelings, such on, and was not the creation of some being whom meant for me to be truly unique, truly brilliant, is beyond my thinking.

I left the church for many years, I all but gave up my Christianity, yet it was in those dark times in my life, and they were dark times. I turned away from God, became involved in humanist thinking and philosophies, and yet all the while I could not renounce God.
I didn't live for him, I didn't call on him, I didn't do anything involving him, yet when ever I asked myself, "Is there a God?" I would always come to the same conclusion. "Yes." Though even at times, I blamed him for all my worldly problems and pains, whenever I asked the question, the answer was always simply. "Yes."

I understand this, now that I'm older and have accepted Christ back into my heart. It was because of my soul, my soul despite all of my excuses, would not allow me to renounce God, because it was God who created it, and thus created me.

This is merely my own personal belief, but I've came to realize that throughout all my life, God never abandoned me when I needed him, even if I didn't want him.
And it is for that reason alone, that I set down the road to renew my faith in God, and Christ.

Sincerely
Shizz

P.S. Your all really made of cosmic cotton candy!