A question about Islam?

[Stanislaw]

I have a question about the beliefs of Islam, I am currently taking a course in school on religions of the world and I was wondering if any one could clear up a few matters?

1. What exactly is a Jinn, I am not sure what they are, sinse they have the ability to shoose a righteous on unrighteous existance?

2. What is the significance of the Ka'bah, why is it important?

3. What is the difference between a caliph and an imam?

4. How is the Hadith different from the quran?

(this is not for a homework assignment, we don't really get those in this class, just tests :D )

Stanislaw

[adilyoussef]

Hi stanislaw!

It's good to hear that people are intrested in other religions and study them. That might help us understand ourselves better. I have to go to work now. But once back,I'll give you some clarifications for your questions. This post is just to remind me to answer your questions. I want to keep this thread in my user CP.

[adilyoussef]

I'll start in answering the questions by number 4 and I'll go on till number 1.

4. How is the Hadith different from the quran?

The difference between the Hadith and Qura'an is that the Qura'an is the word of God and Hadith is an explanation to it provided by the prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The difference is also in the fact that prayers are only valide by verses of Qura'an. The prayer begins with "Al Fatiha", the first soura in Qura'an, then another soura in the choice of the person, but only from Qura'an. Hadith is there to explain wath the Qura'an says.

3. What is the difference between a caliph and an imam?

Caliph or khalif and imam are two names that confuses many people. A caliph can be an imam and an imam can't be a caliph only if he has a good political status. Caliph litarary means the surrogate or the one who replaces the previous ruler. He rules over muslims and has to have a good knowledge of Islamic laws and teachings, this alows him to be an imam. He is choosen among the people. He has to be the most wise, respected, and inteligent of them. An imam is the one who leads a prayer. A prayer can be done individually or in a group ( not several groups at a time but only one). The imam reads a soura and people follow him by listening, not repeating alowd. The imam can play the role of the khatib and give a speech in friday noon at the mosk. It's called "sallat al jomoa", the friday prayer. To be an imam, one has to learn the qura'an by heart. To be a khatib, one has to understand the qura'an and the souna ( hadith) very well.

2. What is the significance of the Ka'bah, why is it important?

Ka'bah is a place for warshiping God. The fift pillar of Islam is to pelgrim to it. And pelgrimage lasts one month.

1. What exactly is a Jinn, I am not sure what they are, sinse they have the ability to choose a righteous on unrighteous existance?

For this question, I'll give you two answers. One has to do with Islam, and the other with muslims, especially in a Moroccan context.

Jinns or Jnoun, the plural of Jinn, are creatures created from fire. They have the ability to go very fast and to fly. But they luck one feature which is speciffic to human being -- reason. This according to Ismal.

But in popular Islam or among sertain muslims, the notion of Jinn has evolved through time to take many shapes. Jinns are descibed as creature created from fire and living in a paralel world. They are said to be an inferior category to man. They live like human, have a social life and a sexual one, regulated by laws and religions. There are some who are said to be Christions, Jews, Muslims, or whatever. In a Moroccan context, Jinns are classified into four types: those living in the air, or in the water, earth or fire. They are represented by different things, like music, flowers, colours, or the days of the week. There are some who have a name, like "Aicha Kandisha", "Lala Mira", "Sidi Shamharoush", and so on and so forth. Many interpretations say that Jnoun are categorised into 7 categories according to 7 colours: red, blue, black, white, yellow, green, and the last I forgot which it is, or to the days of the week. Why this? Simply to give an explanation to inexplicable things or events. Some illnesses that were new or disasters were always said to be the act of Jnoun. I'm talking here about years ago before the advencement of medecine. But keep in mind that this interpretation is not a Qura'anic one but raised among some muslim comunities. For further information, I'll reffer you to Westermark, Crapanzano Vicent, and Philip Hermans.

I hope that my explanations are clear to you.

Adil

[Stanislaw]

Thank you for your response!

So a jinn is maybe like a sort of demon in a way, or maybe they are more like a legend, like the spryte of european tradition?

[Jewels83]

absolutely not "demon"..There can be good Jinns and Bad Jinns..Muslim and non muslim Jinns..In Islam (i dont remember if it was mentioned in the hadith or Quran) but there were once some Jinns (unbeleivers) who listened to Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) while he was reading the Quran..it was then that they converted to Islam..They say its like a whole other world..like people..there are "Ins" (men) and there are Jinn (whatever they are; but not demons)..demons are usually evil.. :-)

[Stanislaw]

Thanks for clearing that up...so Jinns are really just beings on another plain of existance...like ghosts?

[Weeping Willow]

I think you should look at them as Beings from a parallel universe

P.s very intersting knowledge thank you Adil!

[Jannah]

Great explanation Adil. Thank you!

[adilyoussef]

Thank you for your response!

So a jinn is maybe like a sort of demon in a way, or maybe they are more like a legend, like the spryte of european tradition?

You are always welcome.

For your question, I would not say that. The second intrepretation I gave you about Jinn, as I said, was given from a social context or rather through thropological researchs done by the anthropologists I sited before and others. This question came to my mind also. Why Jnoun are sometimes related to evil things, like possessing people and causing illnesses? I think, and have to do more researches in this field, the idia was established to exerse a sertain kind of controle over people and to put, in a way,rather like a policeman in a shape of a malific creature that punishes the maldoer. To explain that, I'll give two examples. In a Moroccan cult, there is a Jenniya, female name of a Jinn, named Aicha Kandisha. This Jinniya is said to be very pretty and atractive. She goes out at night seducing people to have sex with her. Once a man falls in her trap and has sex with her, he becomes hunted and his life turns to disaster. He might get sexually impotent or, if hi is married, get his marriege ruined. This, as Westermark has said, a way of regulating the sexual life and a protection for women who might meet men outside at night and be abused by them. The second example is about throwing boilled water into pipes at night. It is said that if a person throw boilled water or water that has been used in cooking into pipes or outside at night s/he becomes possessed. Westermar explaines this by the fact that in Morocco, and especially in the 18 or 17th century when the country was in a very serious starvation, and said that this act of Jinn was introduced to prevent people from cooking at night and save provisions. To support his thesis, he comes with the fact that in ramadan, a holly month when people fast the day and eat the night, people are allowed to cook at night without fearing being possessed because Jnoun in ramadan are said to be imprisoned. Why imprisoned? Just because it's a holly month for prayers in which no evil exist. I'll insist that these fact are not Islamic based data but data collected from a Moroccan society in the 15, 16, till 19th century. People in Morocco still believe in this way. But in Islam, Jinn are just creatures living in their own world.

I hope that I'm not confusing you.

Adil

[dark_182_88]

The difference between the Hadith and Qura'an is that the Qura'an is the word of God and Hadith is an explanation to it provided by the prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The difference is also in the fact that prayers are only valide by verses of Qura'an. The prayer begins with "Al Fatiha", the first soura in Qura'an, then another soura in the choice of the person, but only from Qura'an. Hadith is there to explain wath the Qura'an says.

Sorry to interupt, but aren't the 'tafsir' there as an explanation, specialy since tafsir literaly means explanation in arabic?

Furthermore, the hadiths are not "explanations provided by the prophet Muhammad", but are usualy the words of Muhammad, narrated by people who have met him, whom have transcribed through time and/or memorized and passed on oraly to others, until those ahadith (plural of hadith) were organized about a century and a half later by Bukhari and Muslim, therefore they became to be called Sahih al Bukhari and Sahih al Muslim. Those ahadith can be explanations and events that happened in the life of Muhammad, but mostly are considered to be revolving around the life of Muhammad and so on (correct me if i'm wrong). As well, at the time when the Caliph ( i forgot which one, i think the Abbasid Caliph of the Abbassid dynasty) decided to organize the ahadith and declare which ones are true and which are not, they gathered up to 600,000 ahadith written by numerous, different people, and only a certain number of ahadith were chosen to be true, or sahih, chosen by and according to both scholars Bukhari and Muslim. I would also like to note that the actual number of ahadith that were deemed to be true came to make up about 1% of the total ahadith that were found and organized under the Caliph.

Finaly, I would also like to note that shia do not believe in the ahadith of Bukhari and Muslim, and believe that those are corrupted, and that the former and the latter were drunk mostly (which was a common thing for a certain time until it came to be restricted under Abbassid rule), and therefore simply do not believe in them.


3. What is the difference between a caliph and an imam?

As much as the explanation of Adil was good, I'd just like to note the following on the Caliphs.

The Caliphs, were not so religious as most people believe and say, and the Caliphs formed empires that expanded throughout the different arab territories, sometimes even stretching to Europe under the Ottoman rule. The Caliphate, and the different empires that formed and decided who was to be a Caliph, were mostly driven by political ambitions. There were different Islamic empires, which certainly had Islam as the religion of the State, which formed different Caliphates under different rules, who often clashed together. Of those, the most important ones I will enumerate according to my memory:

The Umayyad Empire (estimated 660 - 750): They were not the descendants of Muhammad but were from the local tribe if I'm not mistaken. Those ruled from Damascus in Syria.
The Abbasid Empire (750 - 1250): Those changed the headquarters of the Caliphate, and ruled in modern-day Iraq. When they came to power, they applied less freedom to the people and tightened the noose, and restricted many things such as alcohol, and a certain kind of poems and poets, who used to critisize the Caliphate (In arabic, yaqifou 3alal atlal, which is the reference to those poets and the kind of poems that they used to make, I can't really tell the exact translation since I am not sure what the last word means, so I will refrain from translating).
In between, there came to life the Fatimid Empire, which ruled from Tunisia at first, and right away transported their headquarters to Cairo, Egypt, where they made it their capital. Those were shiites, and not sunnites as the latter were.
There also came the Mamluk Empire, who were sunnites. Those also ruled from Egypt. However, those came to prominance by a coup-d'etat. The mamluks are originaly turks, who used to be the slaves of the Ayyubids (another caliphate, from which I think Saladin formed if I'm not mistaken). A while after Saladin died, and after their descendants had ruled for a certain time, the Mamluks overthrew one of the descendants and ruled instead, thus initiating the Mamluk empire and Caliphate.

The Fatimid, Ayyubid, and Mamluk ruled in between the Abbasid empire. The latter, had been weakened over time, and had become restricted to Iraq, where he was given legitimacy by another empire, the Seljuks from modern-day Turkey, which were turks but ruled from Isfahan, Iran. It was more of a political alliance rather than true legitimacy. During that time, that empire was at war with another empire (which i currently forgot the name).

After that, came the Ottoman Empire, which had Islam as its religion of State, and also named its caliphates. For a certain time, the Ottoman Empire tried to establish a secular state, but that certainly didn't work at the time due to the large muslim population. The Ottoman Empire, rose to prominance in the early 16th century, when it captured control of the Caliphate in 1516 estimated, which it held until 1914, when it lost power and fell to the young turks, who established modern-turkey, who were aided by the european allies during World War I (the ottoman empire was the ally of germany during World War I). The Ottoman Empire stretched as far as Europe, where it ruled parts of the Balkan, modern-day Turkey, Armenia and those surroundings, and the rest of the arba world.

On a last note, I would just like to say that those caliphates all claimed legitimacy, not because of religion, but basicaly because they were stronger militarily and had been able to annihilate the former caliphate/empire at the time. As well, those caliphates, some of which existed at the same time, held alliances sometimes with the west, sometimes with the Byzantinian Empire, and sometimes between each other (such as that of the Seljuks and Abbasids). Therefore, I can't really consider it as much of a religious thing but rather a political thing, which although did formulate and shape the religion of Islam as we know it today.


2. What is the significance of the Ka'bah, why is it important?

Ka'bah is a place for warshiping God. The fift pillar of Islam is to pelgrim to it. And pelgrimage lasts one month.

I would also like to note that the Ka'bah, allegedly built by Abraham after he built the Al-Aqsa Mosque (Jerusalem) in a lapse of 40 years, was formerly a pagan pantheon for a long time, until it came under Islamic power. The Ka'ba pantheon, consisted of 365 gods, those of which the pagan arabs at pre-islamic times believed in, of which some are known (Allah, Allat, Manat, 'Uzza...yes Allah was a pagan God but muslims usualy don't acknowledge it, and the last three were called the daughters of Allah), as well as icons of Abraham, Mary and Jesus. All those were taken out and destroyed (shrines, icons, idols) from the Ka'bah when Muhammad took over it.

Oh, the pagan arabs also used to perform pilgrimage at the Ka'bah as well, they also prayed 5 times a day (some say 7), they circumambulated around the Ka'bah, they shaved their heads after they were done, and they fasted for a whole month (such as Ramadan).


1. What exactly is a Jinn, I am not sure what they are, sinse they have the ability to choose a righteous on unrighteous existance?

Adil's explanation is very good, actualy this is the Islamic explanation I guess.

However, as to my knowledge, outside of Islamic terms, a jinn is the term that refers to a genie (such as that of Aladin if you remember, the blue guy). Also notice that in Aladin, that takes place in Morocco if I'm not mistaken.

As well, I would like to note that, jinn (jnoun for plural), actualy means craziness (jnoun) and jinn if used as a verb literaly means go crazy. I do not know if that is of any help, but its just something that I just noticed, although its not necesarily related.


Hope I haven't talked to much :$

By the way, I'm also taking the course of World Religion at college :D

[Stanislaw]

Thank you Adil, Your explanation has cleared up the confussion!

Maybe the meaning of the word could inrelation to the possesion

It would appear that in the morrocan tradition that perhaps the jinn is a tool for punishment.

Thankyou for your responses!

ps. how are you finding the world religion course? I quite enjoy the one that I attend.

[Hayri]

Hi Stanislaw.

Thanks for other explanations of people here but i want to give my own explanations about three of your questions.

First, A jinn is a creation mentioned many time in Qur'an. They have responsibilities like people and they will be judged like us after death.
They are created from "fire without smoke" or another translation "scorching smoke" that is mentioned in the verse 15:27 (27th verse of 15th Surah, Al-Hijr)
You may be question that so are they fire or not? Creating from "fire" doesn't mean that they are like "fire" now. Let's think people, we believe that Adam had been created from earth, but we are not seem like earth till we will die! We are created by Allah from earth originally but the structure of earth had changed in another type of thing that is meat and what we have others in our body! Like this Jinns are created from fire but that doesn't mean that we can see them like fire!
The ghost or demon is not the same thing with what jinn is. Jinns are in many different types like people. There are jinns who are muslim, christian, jew, pagan etc..
There are jinns good or evil..
And a Jinn is not a thing to be afraid of. A muslim thinks (must think) that Allah is the Owner of all us and there may be no harm without His permition from other things like jinns or what you believe to be ghost.
Another issue is that jinns can not know future, but they can know what we don't know sometimes. Because in their universe or "dimension" (Qur'an speaks about other universes in many verses) jinns can transport faster than us and their lives are longer than ours that they can live for hundreds of years (those are general ideas about jinns in Islamic interpretations) therefore they can see what is happening in other places of the world (because of speed) and they can today know more historical truths than us (because of living long).

------
Imams are some educated people (about Islamic laws) and some people follow them that who accepts their understanding of Islam. All Imams are not accepted by everyone there may be different views of different imams. If you accept the idea of an imam you can follow his way this is your choice. But you don't have to follow one this is your choice not an Islamic command.

Haliph (Khalifah originally) symbolyzes (today there is no haliph) the top authority of muslim world. The first 4 Khaliphes were people who had lived with Prophet during His prophethood. After this time the Khaliphes were choosen from (generally) governer of Islamic countries which are the powerful muslim country of it's time.

The first four Khaliphes were from Ashab (Ashab means who lived during the life of Prophet and listened His preaches and became His follower) they became Khaliph just after Prophet's death are accepted by all sunni muslims as great authorities and examples of beautiful Islamic life with their lifestyles. Because they had learn Islam from the Prophet and they lived on His way till their death.

After these four Khaliphes there were some Khaliphes again. For example in the time of Ottoman Empire, emperors of Ottoman Empire had been started to be khaliphes of Muslim world because the saviour of muslim world was Ottoman Empire with it's power on the earth. But this time they were not authorities about Islam. (That does't mean they were not good muslims!)
All they have some great scholars with them in their palaces to ask Islamic laws when they need. There may be some Ottoman emperors made mistakes in their decisions or lifestyle that sometimes contradicts with Islamic life, but that doesn't show this is because of Islam the mistakes are their problems not Islam.


Qur'an is the revelation of Allah to Prophet as a scripture! The words of Qur'an are revelated by Allah there are no words that added by Prophet!

Hadithes are narrations from Prophet's speeches and life. Hadithes come from many different sources (i.e, people) Generally most serious hadithes are which narrated by Ashab. There are degrees of hadithes. Some are powerful (because some hadithes are narrated by several Ashabs) some are weaker (those were narrated from a few source or weak sources) and some are set-up (which are set-up of unknown people that contradicts with Qur'an or powerful hadithes)

If you carefully examine language style of Qur'an and Hadithes you will see the clear difference that shows the "writer" (surely revelator!) of Qur'an is not Prophet. Qur'an is the miracle given to Prophet it's verses are shines like jewelry in eyes, speeches and ears of people.
Surely Qur'an is very clear and effective with it's verses, warnings, laws and perfect recitation style.

Note:If in my text there are any mistakes i want muslim friends to correct me. Take care friends..

[kashifalikamil]

mmmmmhhhhww

[caspian]

huh... really nice discussion, but for me, now, at mid night, kind of scary reading about jinn... when I'm alone at home...in a big apartment... Just it reminded me scary stories about jinns (based on true stories) what i was told - from childhood. from those stories i know that they usually appear in a quiet places, usually far from noisy cities- in suburbs. They like to ride horses, they take(steal) smb's horse and ride at nights. they're afraid of needle, anything which is like needle scares him. that's why in villages people usually keep needles on their selves and on their horses to keep Jinns away . and I've heard stories that in past some people caught jinns sticking into them needle and make them work at their farm.
I've read that before God created Adam, there were creatures by name "nas-nas" who used to live in Earth. they were like human but with one leg, they had faith to God, and jinns also were living along with them in Earth. After "nas-nas" lost their faith, forgot about God, they were punished, God sent Devil and angels to punish them. Then God create Adam and didn't let Jinns live in the Earth.
I've heard also that they can get in other people's shape, in dolls, and in pictures. Maybe because of that in Islam it's forbidden to draw human face.
there's another strange point: why sometimes can real fortune teller know everything about u? they explain this like everybody (human) has own Jinn, and when you meet a fortune teller , your Jin contacts with the jin of the fortune teller and tells him about u. and the fortune teller gets this information by his Jinn, but he doesn't know about this fact that he has jin and it's Jin who gives him information about future. he just believs that he gets information from unknown source.
:smash: You're right !!! :nod: what the hell i wrote here using my "nice" English!!! :lol:

[Amra]

1. What exactly is a Jinn, I am not sure what they are, sinse they have the ability to shoose a righteous on unrighteous existance?

The jinns are creatures that God has created, but we cannot see them. They have the free will as well, and can be either believers or non-believers. Usually, the jinns who do not believe are referred to as the followers of Satan.


2. What is the significance of the Ka'bah, why is it important?

The Ka'bah is the first place of worship that was created. It was built by Abraham a.s and his son Ismail a.s. It is believed that a stone from paradise fell on Earth, and it can be found in Ka'ba. Muslims turn their faces toward Ka'bah for prayer, and visiting Ka'bah once in a lifetime, if able to do so, is obligatory for every muslim. If the pilgirmage is performed as prescribed, it is believed that a person returns free of sin.


3. What is the difference between a caliph and an imam?

Both caliph and imams are leaders. However, caliph has a political meaning as well, because it refers to the head of state in an islamic country. Every caliph is an imam, but not every imam is a caliph. Imam can be the spiritual leader in a community, or even in a very small group, there always has to be a leader chosen, as to avoid anarchy. For example, even if a group of muslims travels somewhere, they are supposed to chose a person who would be their imam, and who they would rely on to make decisions. Also, when people pray in a group, they have to choose an imam to lead the prayer, and usually ther person who is most religious would be chosen.

4. How is the Hadith different from the quran?[/quote]

Qur'an is the unchaged Word of God revealed to Mohammed a.s through the angel Gabrial. It has no human influence, and it is believed to have been perserved exactly as Allah t. revealed it in its original form. Hadiths contain sayings of Prophet Mohammed a.s, but also they tell us about his life and his actions. They have been narrated down from the people who have lived in the time of the Prophet a.s, and later collected into different volumes. There are thousands of hadiths, but not all of them are considered to be factual. They are catagorized into four different catagories, depending on the validity they are supposed to posses.

[Stanislaw]

so the quran is similar in a sense to the old testament of christianity, and the hadith is similar to the new testament in that it is composed of collected works, by several different authors?

[Amra]

so the quran is similar in a sense to the old testament of christianity, and the hadith is similar to the new testament in that it is composed of collected works, by several different authors?

I don't know enough about the Bible to state something like that, but as far as I know, the Old Testament is not God's speach word for word, so it cannot be compared to the holy Qu'ran. (I am ignoring here the fact that muslims do not believe that the Bible today is corrupted and no longer valid) Also, hadiths and the holy Qur'an are not on the same level, because the Qur'an is believed to be infallible and original word of God, while the hadith collections do not originate from God, but from Prophet Mohammed a.s, and even though he is believed to be sinless, he is certainly not on the level of God Almighty. Hadiths explain the holy Qur'an, more or less, because through them we see how the Prophet a.s practiced Islam.

[Stanislaw]

Thanks, that answers my question. :)

Do muslims believe or practice reconciliation? In christianity, if one is penatent they can ask God for forgiveness of their sins, I was just wondering if this is the same of Islam?

[Amra]

Do muslims believe or practice reconciliation? In christianity, if one is penatent they can ask God for forgiveness of their sins, I was just wondering if this is the same of Islam?

Of course. Asking for forgiveness is fundamental to Islam, as this is the main reason how we differentiate between believers and non-believers. All people sin, but only believers ask for forgiveness. When a person commits a sin, there are three things he has to do for the sin to be forgiven. Namely, he has to feel remorse for committing the sin, he has to ask God for forgiveness, and he has to abstain from doing it again. If the sin was not towards God only, but involved a person, then another step has to be taken; namely the person has to be asked for forgiveness as well, and if the wrongdoing involved material damage, than that person has to be compensated for it.


Here are some verses from the holy Qur'an:

“Do they not know that it is Allah Who accepts the repentance of His servants and receives (approves) their charity, and that Allah is the Relenting, the Compassionate?” (At-Tawbah: 104)


“Say: ‘O My servants who wronged against their souls, do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate.’” (Az-Zumar: 53)

“O you who believe! Turn to God in true, sincere repentance.” (At-Tahrim: 8).

Surely Allah loves those who turn unto him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves." (2:222)


In one of the hadiths al qudsi (hadith in which God's words are revealed), Allah s.v.t says:

“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.”

There is a lot more..but I didn't want to flood the forum.

[Stanislaw]

Thanks,

for reconcilliation, does the person ask God themselves, or do they go through an intermediat, for example in catholicism, people confess to a priest, who prays for your forgiveness and instructs you how to ask God for forgiveness?

[Amra]

for reconcilliation, does the person ask God themselves, or do they go through an intermediat, for example in catholicism, people confess to a priest, who prays for your forgiveness and instructs you how to ask God for forgiveness?


They ask God directly. It is a great sin to ask someone else for something that God has only power to do. No other person has the power to do that, nor do we ask anyone to pray to God for our sins. Everyone has the same ability to become closer to God, and sincere repentence can only come when the one who has sinned seeks it directly. It is one of the things in Islam that I love the most; namely, having that direct contact with God, praying to Him, relying to Him, and confessing only to Him.

[Stanislaw]

It seems like a personal realationship, that is kind of neat. :)

[Mililalil XXIV]

In Judaism and Christianity, no one asks the Priest for his personal forgiveness - it is a matter of holding a sinner to Penitance through the involvement of a third party Witness, who is an Officer, you might say, for the regulation of the Covenant. It is up to GOD how HE administers all things. If the idea of the Priesthood is evil, then so was the statement in the quran that the Torah has value.

Also, Muhammad never was said to have directly had a relationship with `Allah. The quran reflects the Tradition of Moses as GOD's friend - and his brother was High Priest.

Furthermore, since Muhammad was said to have recieved instructions for all things regarding religion through angels, what makes angelic mediation above being evil where Amra says human Priestly representation is evil?

[Stanislaw]

I don't believe that the priesthood is evil, but I know that some protestant groups believe in direct reconcilliation with God aswell, I was just wondering what prompted these beliefs?

[Whifflingpin]

"I know that some protestant groups believe in direct reconciliation with God as well, I was just wondering what prompted these beliefs."

A protestant might start with Luke chapter 20, verse 21 “The Kingdom of God is within you.” He would go on to reflect that Christ died to bridge the gap between God and man. He might remember the words “What God has joined together let no man put asunder.” Any insistence on intermediaries other than God the Son is then seen as a rejection of the saving power of Christ.

[The Unnamable]

I wish I were allowed to ask the questions I’d like to ask about Islam. Oh well, as it’s a Literature forum, I suppose I'll have to make do with that.

[Stanislaw]

"I know that some protestant groups believe in direct reconciliation with God as well, I was just wondering what prompted these beliefs."

A protestant might start with Luke chapter 20, verse 21 “The Kingdom of God is within you.” He would go on to reflect that Christ died to bridge the gap between God and man. He might remember the words “What God has joined together let no man put asunder.” Any insistence on intermediaries other than God the Son is then seen as a rejection of the saving power of Christ.

I suppose, but in catholicism, the priest acts on your behalf.

[Mililalil XXIV]

My post above wasn't clearly addressed to Amra as it should have been. She, not Stan, said that mediation was evil - thus I showed that the Torah the quran refers to by name, though not by content, possesses just such a thing as the Priesthood.

[Amra]

Milali,

I didn't say priesthood was evil; I stated it was a sin based on muslim beliefs. Torah and the Bible are not one and the same.
Receiving a revelation through angels who God directed in that way has nothing to do with asking priests to pray for forgiveness for someone. I don't know who you made a parallel between those two things.?
First of all, angels are directed by God to transmit His message, and we are directed by God to ONLY ask Him for forgiveness; directly and without intermediaries. in both cases, God's commands are followed. Prophet Mohammed a.s didn't ask angel Gabrial for forgiveness; he was merely receiving God's message through him. It didn't go both ways. :)Why should there be an intermediary? Is he closer to God than you? what is his purpose? How can he forgive sins, when only God has the power to do that? How can you compare angles with humans? :confused:

[Mililalil XXIV]

Milali,

I didn't say priesthood was evil; I stated it was a sin based on muslim beliefs. Torah and the Bible are not one and the same.
Receiving a revelation through angels who God directed in that way has nothing to do with asking priests to pray for forgiveness for someone. I don't know who you made a parallel between those two things.?
First of all, angels are directed by God to transmit His message, and we are directed by God to ONLY ask Him for forgiveness; directly and without intermediaries. in both cases, God's commands are followed. Prophet Mohammed a.s didn't ask angel Gabrial for forgiveness; he was merely receiving God's message through him. It didn't go both ways. :)Why should there be an intermediary? Is he closer to God than you? what is his purpose? How can he forgive sins, when only God has the power to do that? How can you compare angles with humans? :confused:

The Torah shows a completely different view of Prophets and Hierarchy. GOD has given not only Angels, but some men as well, catalytic roles in HIM and from HIM and under HIS Headship.

Angels are as much less than GOD as good men are. Thus, if GOD can favor an Angel as HE pleases and not suffer loss to the Dignity of HIS DEITY, HE can also so favor a man. In your arguments I have noticed many statements wholly dependant upon unecessary restrictions on what must be and on what must not be.

Why would Muhammad have to recieve the instructions for his religion from an angel, rather than from `Allah? No Catholic thinks that the Priest is the source of Forgiveness. But forgiveness is tied up with the means by which CHRIST bought us a new chance after we were rightfully condemned for offending the INFINITE SOURCE of Sanctity HIMSELF. JESUS administered the Sacraments to HIS first Apostles, they in turn to others after them, but it was always GOD forgiving, CHRIST in PERSON, the HOLY SPIRIT through the Church, expressed through Oracles. The Sacrament often called "Confession" by many, but better called "Reconcilliation", is dependant on the SELF-Sacrifice of CHRIST, which the one confessing must believe upon and be imploring. The Priest, filled with the SPIRIT of CHRIST, with the Keys of the Kingdom of the Heavens, binds or looses, according to the SPIRIT's Decree, as Custodian of communal appropriation of the one atoning Sacrifice. In the same way, though GOD could act without Angels by the same arguments that say he could act without Priests, we see that HE administers many things through special Offices that HE HIMSELF operates through by HIS own SPIRIT.

The Priest is a Steward of the appropriation of Sacraments empowered by none but GOD alone, which all derive their validity from the Sacrifice of JESUS as the LAMB of GOD. Since there is no forgiveness independant of CHRIST's Passion, the Sacraments that stem from that Sacrifice being essential to full interaction with that Sacrifice on a personal level, the Priest is merely essential as taking his place in the Economy of all things that GOD saw fit to make work together as the saving machine of HIS SPIRIT. For these Sacraments to be ever in steady flow, some Catholics have duties to be set apart unto serving their purpose, but even the Pope needs the Sacraments.

I will clarify when time permits.

[SheykAbdullah]

If I may help clarify for Mil, and I think he may mean this, of course he may not so this is ultimately my own word, but many people kind of beat around the bush instead of saying it outright, and many people don't like it said outright, but I talked about this a little on another thread, but the Catholic idea of God is one of a God that is as little involved in the world as possible and for that reason we need intermediaries. The pope, for example, acts as an intermediary in a way similiar to the twelve Imams and various Vakils did in Shi'a Islam (of course the belief in the Vakils in Shi'aism depends on what subsect of Shi'a you follow).

This Catholic belief in the idea of a reserved God also explains our belief in saints, who act, in traditional Catholicism, as intermediaries for God, thus when we pray for the INTERCESSION (note that the word means to intervene) of the saints for a particular matter, ie asking St Christopher for a safe journey, we are not praying TO St Christopher, rather to God through St Christopher. The same thing with the virgin Mary and by extension the same thing through your confessor. He acts, through his interpretation of scripture, as the intermediary between you and God for forgiveness and can do this because he is blessed with the ability through his office and through the church, which are the human intermediaries for God on earth. Basically there is almost a wall between God and man in Catholicism and you need certain things to breach it.

Kind of linked to this discussion is a question that was originally brought up in the post about imams. Now my familiarity with the religion of Islam is mostly relegated to Shi'aism and particularly the Twelver Shi'aism of Iran, but there are two Imams in the sect of Islam called Shi'a, the Imams and imams. The Imams were twelve people descended from the house of the Prophet. After the second Caliph died there was a conflict among early Muslims about who should leave the chuch and one section followed the Caliphs, the other the Imams. There were, as I mentioned before, Twelve Imams, though many people refuse to acknowledge the seventh Imam and claim that he had a disreputable reputation (I am not a Muslim, and try to be as objective about the faith as possible so I try not to be judgemental when it comes to sectionalism and I am not, so I am not supporting one idea or another), anyway, the twelve Imams were endowed, supposedly, with a direct link to Allah and thus acted almost like popes. The twelfth Imam occulated (went into hiding) in what is called the Gheybat. He left the world with no link to God as a child, but is fated to return to the world and usher in an era of peace (he is called the Mahdi, and there have been many people claiming to be him, most notably the founder of Baha'i and a person who led a revolt against the British in the Sudan in the late nineteenth century).

After the Mahdi occulated (disappeared, became hidden) the Shi'a groups split. Some say that was that and now no one can interpret the scriptures, others say a series of people called Vakils (a word meaning Lawyer) remained in communication with the Imam, but the Vakils eventually vanished creating the Gheybat-eh Kobra (Greater Occulation). From here the groups split even farther, but many believe that certain people who possess certain qualifications may interpret scripture. These are called Mollahs and posses what is called ijtahad and are referred to as mojtahid. Everyone else has itallaqad and are referred to as motalleqid and must follow the religious adive of the mojtadhids. The highest level of mojtahid is that of Ayatollah, which is where the leaders of Iran come from.

Now these Imams I just described are capital 'I's. There are also imams in Shi'a that lead the faithful in prayer, that may or may not be mullahs themselves. Often they are well versed in the Qu'ran, but for various reasons do not meet the other requirements (some branches of Shi'a require you to be of the bloodline of the prophet to be mojtahid and thus a mullah or ayatollah).

The Ayatollahs in Iran of old used to make sermons to the people and hold mettings with them to guide them, sicne then and since they are busier with other things they now write commentary books for the faithful to follow on various important questions such as marriages and legal contracts. I forget what the name of these books is now, but I believe it is literally comentary in Arabic.

Of course, this applies only to the Shi'a the Sunnis have Caliphs and a much more personal relationship with Allah than most Shi'as. In fact, as an interesting anectdote there were in the past a group of Kurdish muslims who had great veneration for Satan, and were called Shaytuni because of it, because they believed that Satan had great love for Allah, but Allah knowing that evil must be in the world exiled him to hell, where he suffers to this day from his absence from the light.

(As an adendum to this fact, I am only saying it to illustrate the fact that there are as many sects in Islam as there are in Christianity and the Shaytunis were small and have never been widely accepted, not even by other Kurds. They are like the polygymous Mormons to Christians, who were once so disliked that there were two seperate Mormon Wars where the US Cavalry rode into Utah, for various reasons not entirely religious and mostly regarding the fact that the Mormons were coining their own currency. Now I have offended everyone equally, and I will let everyone decide whether they hate me or not, but the truth is the truth and I don't think I have misrepresented it.)

[ShoutGrace]

Hi folks. I need to be educated here. Can anyone tell me more about the idea that the Quran was meant to be read in it's original language and loses itself when translated into english? Also, is this why english versions of the Koran say 'Meanings of the Holy Quran in English'? Thanks!

[Amra]

Hi folks. I need to be educated here. Can anyone tell me more about the idea that the Quran was meant to be read in it's original language and loses itself when translated into english? Also, is this why english versions of the Koran say 'Meanings of the Holy Quran in English'? Thanks

The holy Qur'an was revealed in the arabic language, and only in that language do we have the Qur'an as it was originally dictated to Prophet Mohammed a.s. Those were God's words in their unchanged form, and Allah t. chose the arabic language because of its richness in vacabulary, precision in describing details, and probably because Prophet Mohammed a.s was speaking that language. It wouldn't make sense to reveal a book to someone in a language he doesn't speak. When you read a translation, you don't read the original words of God, but someone's interpretation of those. Every translation in itself contains a certain degree of interpretation depending on the knowledge of the translator, skills, and ability to understand the language of the book he is translating. Even in literature we say that a book loses on value when translated from its original version, and then we have various translation that are rated on their accuarcy and validity, flow, and overall closeness to what the author meant originally meant to convey in his work. Of course, the translation will not differ in content from the original, but it is still not the original word of God.

[SheykAbdullah]

Hi folks. I need to be educated here. Can anyone tell me more about the idea that the Quran was meant to be read in it's original language and loses itself when translated into english? Also, is this why english versions of the Koran say 'Meanings of the Holy Quran in English'? Thanks!

I think this brings up an interesting point that not many people think about when it comes it Islam, and makes Islam almost unique. As you said, and as Amra said, Islam was presented in a language that was living, and still is living (there is an interesting argument that this version of Arabic is being artificially kept alive, but that would be a digression), and so it has a power that is somewhat more immidiate than we have in Christianity. Not only that, there is no contextualism vs literalism debate within Islam. These are Allah's words, point blank. Thus there is less interpretation of the Qu'ran than we have with the Bible in Christianity.

However, to say that the Qu'ran is not translated for the faithful is incorrect. In fact, I have a copy of the Qu'ran in Persian and Arabic that I bought from a bookseller in Kabul when I was there. Many Iranians, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Afghanis, Philipinos, etc do not speak Arabic and so have to deal with the translation like Christians do. It is highly encouraged for them TO LEARN arabic, but it is not always something that is done.

I think it is also interesting to note that these are populations where incidinces of heterodoxy are also higher than in the mainstream ethnically Arab norm.

[Nightshade]

Hey stan if its not too late I want to answer one of your questions but first Re quaran and translations. The real reason for this is the Arabic language. for example there are about 12 types of YOU in the quaran and arabic each slightly different but interpret it literally and all you get is you a rather pathetic word and because of this some of the overturns? oF the words are lost thats why its the interpretation of the meaning of the quaran an never directly called the koran in english if you like because you cant with any text really take it and translate word for word literally. Now can you?


Mil, re the mediation I think its more because of the muslim understanding of what angels are. They have no will no choice so in essence they CAN NOT make a mistake when carrying out one of Gods orders. while humans are human they can make mistakes through no fault of their own,. And also someone like a priest or a shjiek if they make a mistake and instruct people wrong the people are beamless but they are not if they start spouting things as truth without knowing what they are talking about at least that what I think I was told.

AS for forgiveness somewhere in Suraah 2 I think there is an ayah that says something like truly repent and do not repeat your sin when you know it is wrong and you are forgiven. but the thing about forgiveness in Islam is its sort of a double edge knife really. they’re are sins against God which he can and will forgive if you repent but the sins against another person only they can forgive. If they don’t your not completely forgiven.

The kaba is important because (IMO) it is a focal point for isalm its something that represents our ultimate equality. Some say that it was built by Adam and the angels. That since then its been a focal point for religious belief. And yes it was a centre for pagan practice for centuries not really surprising if you look at who quraysh was and if you believe the quaranic version of how the pagan gods came to be.
Ill explain if your interested otherwise its a bit of a waste of time.

Actually Stan possession and jinn is common concept in Egypt too I think the call it “rakb a3la rasso Jinn” Jinn riding on his head. I.e being possessed personally I’m highly skeptical when it comes to possession and such but you never know strange things have happened. Ehoever it was the said that bit about the repenting jinn who became muslim it s from surat el jinn ( juza amm I think near the end anyway) in the quatrain.
Ive always thought they are a lot like people, in a different world but I suppose a lot seems to lead to the idea of different planes and the same world. Because at some time we could interact with them and the angels.
Actually Stan if you believe that Christianity and Islam have he same source then I would say that actually yes Demons and bad jinn are pretty much the same thing and the good jinn don’t interact with humans because its forbidden.

[mcrane]

may recommend "A survey of Arab history" - Bernard G. Weiss and Arnold H. Green.

[mcrane]

Hi folks. I need to be educated here. Can anyone tell me more about the idea that the Quran was meant to be read in it's original language and loses itself when translated into english? Also, is this why english versions of the Koran say 'Meanings of the Holy Quran in English'? Thanks!

I am definitely not an expert but allow me to share what I learned in my Arab history class.

In Islam, prophets come with a message and miracles. The miracle of Moses was "talking" to God (among others), that of Jesus was speaking as an infant (among many others!) and the miracle of Muhammad was the Quran. The Quran had such eloquence that amazed the Qurayshis who were by nature masters of language. There are many studies by Islamic scholars on the miracle of Quran. And I think this nature of the Quran as an "eloquent" holy text is what causes the popularity of your statement. But in my view, it is a misconception; since Islam is, as considered by Muslims and stated in the Quran, a "universal" message. This includes not only non-Arab contemporaries of the prophet, but also Arabs of our time, who consider the Quran to be written in the "language of Quran" which is different from their "Arabic" (Which is quite a distinct dialect of standard Arabic "Quranic Arabic").

Nomad Arabs took strong pride in their language among a bunch of other things (such as courage, generosity, honor and other traits). Before Isalm, Arabic had undergone forms of evolution. Firstly, There was the importance of peotry in the culture as it was no form of luxury. It was used to declare wars, enemity, friendship and it was also used for documentation. Skillful use of language was a source of pride.

The tribe of Quraysh held "Souk Ukaz" every year where trade took place and contests in poetry were held. As expected, this made the language richer by time. So poetry was the one impressive thing.


Another point is also in order here, relating to Quraysh, the tribe of Muhammad.
As a start, every tribe in the Arabian peninsula had its own dialect but they all had to speak the dialect of the strongest tribe, which was Quraysh. They were rich traders, they protected trading caravans between the North and the South and they were responsible for the Ka'aba - the center for pilgrimage of the pagan Arabs. Their dialect is the base of standard Arabic and it is the dialect/language in which the Quran was revealed.

Hope that helps!! :)


Comments, anyone?

[Stanislaw]

Thanks night! the idea of jinn seemed odd to me, but I think I understand now, thanks! I think it is always important to learn other peoples beliefs!

[paledancer]

Hi Stanislaw,
I am islam so I will try to answer you(there are things that I don't know too). 1.Jins are like angels but I think they are creepier.they can control raining etc.
2.Ihave never heard something lik this so I can't say something.
3.calip was the leader of islam it was a title given to emperor of the Ottoman Empire until regime was changed. beginning from republic, there is not a position like this. ımam is the person who shows (show isn't exactly the word but I can't find the word) people how to perform the ritual prayers in mosques. it is kind of a job, not a title.
actually, it's nice that you have asked since people generally have prejudice about islam.

[Shield&Sword]

paledancer
scuse me for jumping this way, but allow me to give you more clear idea about jinn.
Jinn cant control any thing, they are not like angles in anything, they are ordered like man to worship God, they have the mind to choose the right way or to refute it, to believe in God or not.

Surah 7 verse 179 " Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: they have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle, nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). "

They were created to worship the only one God:
Surah 52 verse 56 "I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me."

They are nations like us:
Surah 7 verse 38 ""He will say: "Enter ye in the company of the Peoples who passed away before you - men and Jinns - into the Fire. Every time a new People enters, it curses its sister-People (that went before), until they follow each other, all into the Fire. Saith the last about the first: "Our Lord! it is these that misled us: so give them a double Penalty in the Fire." He will say: "Doubled for all": but this ye do not understand.""
Surah 41 verse 25 ""And We have destined for them intimate companions (of like nature), who made alluring to them what was before them and behind them; and the sentence among the previous generations of Jinns and men, who have passed away, is proved against them; for they are utterly lost.""

They are created from fire:
Surah 15 verse 25 ""And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.""
Surah 55 verse 15 ""And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:""
This doesnt mean when he walk its fire walking, as man was created from dust but he doesnt seem dust, same thing Jinns for fire as i remember.

Jins got prophets:
Surah 6 verse 130"" "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you Messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My Signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say: "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith. ""
Surah 72: [1] Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur-an). They said, ' We have really heard a wonderful Recital! [2] 'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.[3] `And exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.[4] 'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah; [5] `But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that is untrue against Allah.

Only that we cant see them, there are ways to comunicate with them, but its not allowed, in general comunication is with jinns who doesnt believe or bad.

Jinns are not like angels, angels have not (i dont know what it means in english, in arabic its shahoa) the feels of loving money and other life things, they are servant of God, they dont do anything against him, they obey all what Allah t order them. The duvil is from Jinn not from angels.

Califa is the one who come in place of another one from the arabic verb Khalafa. Abo Bakr may ALLAH be pleased with him is the first khalifa in islam because he talk place of prophet peace be upon him in leading islamic nation and organizing its different needs.

[miss tenderness]

. This includes not only non-Arab contemporaries of the prophet, but also Arabs of our time, who consider the Quran to be written in the "language of Quran" which is different from their "Arabic" (Which is quite a distinct dialect of standard Arabic "Quranic Arabic").



Comments, anyone?



Hey Macrane:

I guess you take pretty good classes about Arab History, which is something that really pleases me. I do agree with most of what you've stated .I just want to note that the Quran does not have a language that is different from the Arabs speech nowadays.Infact most of the Arabic words spoken by Arabs (nowadays)are found in the Quran. So the Quran does not have a language of its own that Arab do not use. The most amazing thing is that the Quran included most of the Arabic dialects which existed at the time of Prophet Mohammad (peace an blessings be
Upon him)and the dialects of this time.The language of the Holy Quran is highly elevated but easily understood and recited by even non Arabs. As for the difference between the language of the Quran and the Arabic speech ,we can not at all claim that there is a huge gap that creats a big difference between the lang. of the Quran and the Arabic spoken in our days. It's only a matter of colloquialism that pervades in the spoken Arabic but still the lang. of the Quran is the standard Arabic that is used in education and lectures and by most of the Arabs.

Thanks for sharing:)

[shamal]

hi every body, very good adil u have given a stupendous explanation.
www.irf.net it is for stanislaw. if u have any question about islam,you may ask on this site. regards,