Icons of England

[Scheherazade]

Come across this article on BBC's Magazine and wondered what our Forum members think of England. The options in the poll are as they appear on the website.
Stonehenge, the FA Cup and the red Routemaster bus are among England's most popular icons, according to a new poll. But what do the choices say about the English? And what about the rest of the UK?

To John Major it's warm beer and cricket. To the Sun newspaper it's Jordan's chest and chicken tikka masala.

England's national identity has long been argued over. Now it's the subject of a new debate partly because - next to its neighbours - it seems a rather vague notion and one which some people have trouble celebrating.

In Scotland, the answer could be Edinburgh Castle, Loch Lomond or whisky, while the Welsh may pick the Millennium Stadium or the Severn Bridge, and the Northern Irish the Giant's Causeway.

Nothing infuriates Celts more than the habit of using the words British and English interchangeably. And it could be argued that England's cultural mix makes any single sense of English meaningless.

But a search for England's most popular icons aims to reflect this complexity. Icons: A Portrait of England is a two-year, £1m cultural project funded by the government which invites the public to nominate the things they cherish most about England.

It kicks off with a dozen of what it calls "the first marks on the canvas that will be our portrait of England", chosen by leading figures in academia and the arts.

Alice in Wonderland, a cup of tea and the SS Empire Windrush, which brought 500 immigrants from the Caribbean in 1948, are on the list, which excludes real people.

Among the 184 nominations which did not make the final 12 are Zippy from Rainbow, the funeral of Princess Diana and the pub.

People are invited to comment on the nominations and send in pictures or footage to make it into an organic resource which could eventually encompass Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The table will be updated according to the online votes, and the list of official national icons will grow.

"Englishness has always been problematic because we are a ragbag of influences from all over the world," says Mike Greenwood, commissioning executive of Culture Online, which came up with the idea.

"What a site like this needs to do is reflect that and not impose an orthodoxy about what Englishness is.

"It needs to be inclusive, not just mother's apple pie and a Turner landscape, so there is a debate about what Englishness is, and the answer will be different depending on your background."

The cuppa

St George was overlooked because he is a symbol and not a genuine cultural artefact with roots in English culture, he says.

Having the debate will make people think about who they are, what they feel about their nation's culture and how their community fits into society, he says. It's also important because the multi-layered representations of the icons stimulate learning.

"The fun thing is it will juxtapose something from the National Gallery with something like a cup of tea. That sounds banal. A cup of tea? But then you think about where tea came from.

"It was produced in China and came on ships like the Cutty Sark, which you can go and visit, and tea was drank out of porcelain and china tea cups, which were the trend at the time. So the icon is the beginning of a journey."

OTHER FAVOURITES

Broadcaster Floella Benjamin: Notting Hill Carnival
Actor Richard E Grant: Piccadilly Circus Tube sign
Culture Minister David Lammy: red phone box
Writer Bill Bryson: hedgerows
Mike Greenwood, Culture Online: Hadrian's Wall
Author Margaret Drabble: Jigsaw puzzles
Architect Will Alsop: Cats' eyes on roads
Gardener Charlie Dimmock: "Mind The Gap"
Designer Sir Terence Conran: Royal Festival Hall


Have Your Say: Icons
The project is not intended to end up as an encyclopaedia transcribed online or a poll to find a winner, like the BBC's Great Britons, he says.

"The great thing about interactive media is about growing something and building a community of interests and encouraging people to take ownership of it by nominating and commenting. The site is the start of the debate, building content around which more will be added."

Historian David Starkey has attacked the project as a "quaint and banal list" which attempts to invent something that's not there, because English nationalism is based not on culture but "being best and first".

But there are unique characteristics to the monarchy, cathedrals and parish churches in England which set them apart from the rest of Europe, says the chief executive of English Heritage, Simon Thurley. And the mill, the warehouse, the terraced house and seaside town have roots in English culture and history.

"Scarborough, Blackpool, Bognor Regis, Brighton and others are uniquely English. Nowhere else does a combination of a generally wet and cold climate combine architecturally with a love and a fear of the sea as in England," he says.

But rather than landmark monuments like Big Ben, Durham Cathedral or the Liver building, it is the local manor house, viaduct or pub that most defines our sense of home and our pride in where we live, he believes.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4594660.stm

[AimusSage]

I voted Cup of Tea and Stonehenge, but where is Lord Nelson, or the HMS Victory, I would think them more important icons of English history than the spitfire, which is afterall famous for the battle of brittain.

[papayahed]

I'm embarrassed to say I don't know what some of those things are. FA Cup? SS Empire Windrush?

I was thinking James Bond.

[Scheherazade]

FA Cup is is the football (Soccer Cup).

And SS Empire Windrush: http://www.merchant-navy.net/Pictures/empire%20windrush.html


I voted for the things I knew before moving to this country.

Along with James Bond, the red telephone booth should have been there I think.

[Stanislaw]

How about the Tardis???!!!

oh vell, aside from doctor who, whom was lacking any option on yonder list (maybe a list of british pop culture icons could be cool)

but anywho: tea, lol, but the spitfire, tis one of the first things I think of.

[Nightshade]

Where's the tower of london?
Got to say I have no idea what some of this stuff is and I live here! :eek:
Id say mary poppins :D
Im going to see the angel of the north as soon as the flood let up in June! This year I mean it :D

But no a caup oof tea it has to be, who said it was"the English answer to every crisis" ?

[Logos]

I gotta say, disappointed to not see Westminster Abbey (http://www.westminster-abbey.org/tour/poet_corner.htm) , especially with its "Poets Corner" and tomb of the Unknown Warrior not listed.

It would be my number one pick for iconic representation of the architecture, history, culture, and people of England :)

[Nightshade]

Big ben tower??
St pauls cathaderal,
the thames
The picture of Queen victoria in mournng, you know the one withe her standing profile to the camera??
Peter pan?
Twiggy??
Princess diana,
shakespear. keats byron Austen Dickens oliver twist
Stephen Fry, john cleese who else?? Angela Lansbury.
:D

[AimusSage]

Now this is a good example of England's history, made of true English oak, build in 1769. It took part in one of the most important battles of all time, Trafalger, 1805, as the flagship of Admiral Lord Viscount Horatio Nelson.

http://www.torrington-cavaliers.co.uk/images/Victory/Victory1.jpg

[IrishCanadian]

I voted King James Bible because it represents so much history, the monarchy, polotics, and ... for me ... it just makes me think of England. But If Churchill was there I would have voted him hands down!

[kilted exile]

Ahem....apart from the fact that King James was Scottish. :goof:

I think I would have to vote for the routemaster bus, but I am surprised 1966 aint mentioned at all.

[crisaor]

Definitely the music.

[Virgil]

I agree with almost everyone who pointed out the deficiencies. Here's some more: The Beatles and the Rolling Stones, Queens Victoria and Elizabeth, the first of course, Trafalgar Square and Duke of Wellington, conqueror of Napoleon, Tennyson, Wordsworth, Blake, King Henry V (the actual King, not the play), and of course the person who started it all, William the Conqueror.

And then the geography too: The English Channel, the Lake District.

And the old institutions: Oxford, Cambridge, Parliament.

And how we Americans learn about the English, British humor: Monty Python, Benny Hill, etc.

I think I'll protest the list and not vote.

[Pensive]

I dunno what to select. *confused*

I think that in Virgil post: CAMBRIDGE represents the England best, You know why?

Because, its my dearest wish to get admission there!

[Nightshade]

henry the which???
only one I know anythig about is henry viii oh and the third if you count looking him up 3 days ago.
William the conqurer did not start it all what about Bod-bod whats her face, Aurthur, Alfred etc tc
? Churchill should be up thre too.

[Virgil]

henry the which???
only one I know anythig about is henry viii oh and the third if you count looking him up 3 days ago.
William the conqurer did not start it all what about Bod-bod whats her face, Aurthur, Alfred etc tc
? Churchill should be up thre too.
Henry the Fifth. Defeated the French at Agincourt. Before Henry V, the English were just the French living on the British Island. After Henry V, the english thought of themselves as english. Good point about King Arthur. He should have been on the list too. I guess you can say I'm an Anglophile.

[Nightshade]

Aurthur was an Angle. Post William the conquror are the Normans.
I think Alfred was the last Anglo-saxon king. COuld be wrong though havent looked it up in years.
:D

[emily655321]

Alice in Wonderland, a cup of tea and the SS Empire Windrush, which brought 500 immigrants from the Caribbean in 1948, are on the list, which excludes real people.

I voted for the two-decker bus and Stonehenge. But I agree with Logos, Westminster Abby should be there. And I also agree about the red phone booths, although they aren't there anymore, are they?

The freaking Angel of the North! :D I remember when someone painted a referee's shirt on it. That was funny. I had forgotten about it until I saw it listed. For some reason, I think it's kind of a silly thing.

[Nightshade]

Well I want to see my grandmother who's home town is basically in the shadow of the thing thinks its one of the ugliest statues ever built, she hasnt seen the Bang or boom or whatever its called in Manchester though:D :brow:

[emily655321]

That thing is rather unsettling. Glad I don't have to look at it everyday. Poor Manchester-ites.

[Jay]

I had to google for the Angel thing. Why does it look like a plane with a bit weird aerodynamincs?

[Scheherazade]

How about Big Ben?

I think they have included the things which are easily recognised by most people like Henry VIII's portrait but I am not sure if many people would recognise Henry V or Wordsworth by sight.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I'd be interested to see how the votes split up between english & non-english voters. What do we think of ourselves, compared to how others see us?

I went for tea (of course - nothing is more english than this far-eastern drink!) and the FA cup (though cricket is probably more quintessentially a part of english culture - football is a far more global sport - even the yanks try and play it!)

Notable omissions:

Most of those stated already +
The full english breakfast (although I am mostly vegetarian, this is still a ritual & tradition to so many of us.)

Fish & chip shops (we love our cholesterol over here.)

John Constable (not a favourite painter of mine but absolutely english.)

A pint of bitter in an english pub (there is no beer quite like this in the world - and for the benefit of the American's out there, it is not served warm but at 'cellar temperature' (54 - 57F), quite a bit cooler than room temperature. There's also no bar in the world like a proper, english pub.)

Edward Elgar (the same applies as with Constable, not my cup of tea but could only be english.)

And, because this is the sort of forum it is, here's a few writers that sum up the essence of englishness (in it's many guises): DH Lawrence, Thomas Hardy, Rudyard Kipling (I know where he was born, but still...), Charles Dickens, Jane Austin & John Fowles. (There are many others, but I tried to keep to well known names and selected on the grounds of their 'englishness quotient' before all else.)

[Virgil]

Aurthur was an Angle. Post William the conquror are the Normans.
I think Alfred was the last Anglo-saxon king. COuld be wrong though havent looked it up in years.
:D
Nightshade, I'm wrong when I said William the Conquorer started it all. The anglo-saxons prior to 1066 had developed a what could be called a unified english culture. Sorry about that. However, as to King Arthur, the best we could tell historically, he was of Roman/Celtic (Britannia as a provence of the Roman Empire, but probably of local celtic ethnicity) background. So he was not an Angle but her has been absorbed into english folklore.

[emily655321]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but this very hour my best friend since I was 10 is landing at Heathrow! :banana: She's taking a semester abroad in England, and I'm so excited for her. Just had to say that!

[Nightshade]

How about Big Ben?

.
Giggles and points!! ;)
Don't you mean Big Ben Tower Scher not Big Ben the bell inside the tower:D

[Jay]

Well I think if someone says 'Big Ben' they indeed do mean the tower and not the bell. If it was all about the bell there would be a pic of a bell and not of a tower on the prospects and other souveniers! :D

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I'm pretty sure the tower is actually named 'the west tower' - big ben is the bell. And the guys with the pork pie hats at the tower of London are Yeomen of the Guard - not Beefeaters. And captain Kirk never actually said 'beam me up Scotty'. ;)

[Jay]

He didn't??? :eek:

I wasn't trying to say that Big Ben was the tower. In short, my point: type 'Big Ben' into google and see what it comes up with :)
linky (http://images.google.com/images?q=big+ben&hl=cs&btnG=Hledat+obr%C3%A1zky)

[Sami]

I guess it depends whether you’re talking about icons within England, (iconic for the English), or whether you mean the reputation England has elsewhere in the world. In any case, I vote for “cup of tea”. Now that I am living in North America I’ve noticed that this expression seems to be the main one that inspires people here to try their hand at mimicking an English accent – seems to be some idea that the Brits are always asking one another if we’d like a cup of tea!

[Sami]

[And, because this is the sort of forum it is, here's a few writers that sum up the essence of englishness (in it's many guises): DH Lawrence, Thomas Hardy, Rudyard Kipling (I know where he was born, but still...), Charles Dickens, Jane Austin & John Fowles. (There are many others, but I tried to keep to well known names and selected on the grounds of their 'englishness quotient' before all else.)[/QUOTE]


These are good suggestions! One thing about Fowles’ "The Collector" that is strikingly English is the brilliant way he deals with the class difference between Miranda and Clegg – class being a very important component of English society.

I was trying to think of a comparable example in very recent English fiction but could only think of Zadie Smith’s "White Teeth" – I think that also recognizes the subtleties of class differences, but there are probably other examples.

[MarkBastable]

As steak and kidney pie isn't up there, I'd go for Jerusalem - not because I think it's a good poem, but because it combines the fanciful,the realistic, the liberal, the romantic, the humble, the arrogant and the creative in a way that pretty much sums up what I like about the English. Though frankly, I'd rather have been born Dutch.

[MANICHAEAN]

A pint of beer at room temperature in a country pub accompanied by a ploughman's lunch & the Sunday paper tome.

A pickled onion with the fish & chips.

The banter of a London Taxi driver (cabbie)

[Niamh]

you see... i wouldnt associate tea with England because we drink more tea per capita over here. Stonehenge, Jerusalem, punch and judy, Angel of the north and Alice in Wonderland are my selections. I would have gone with black cabs and victorian sea side resorts as Icons too.

[Hurricane]

I voted cup of tea, Alice in Wonderland, Spitfire, and the FA cup (I only know what it is because my Dad watches it). A couple of the things on the list I've never even heard of, and some obvious ones seem to be missing. Where's Admiral Nelson? Winston Churchill? Or maybe these men are not seen as so "typically" English by people who actually are English?
What I think would be interesting would be a list complied by people who consider themselves English compared to a list written by non-English.

[Whifflingpin]

Well, I'm English

1 Village cricket (played on the village green, with thatched cottages, the mellow stone manor, the mediaeval church, the old coaching inn pub serving proper beer (after the game,) and rooks coming to roost in the elms that cast their shadows over the field in the early evening sun.

2 the old coaching inn pub serving proper beer

3 proper beer

4 Punch & Judy and donkey rides on the sands

5 rows and rows of Victorian terraced houses

6 blocks and blocks of sixties flats

7 The Authorized Version of the Bible (known as the King James' Version to non-English, and maybe to those English who are too young ever to have known it in use.)

8 Vindaloo

9 Winning without conceit and losing without rancour - all right 'If'

10 Green. England is the only country in the world that is painted in the right shade of green.

And I'll grant you fishnchips, Nelson and Churchill. Maybe Oxford and Cambridge. Political asylum. oh, the list goes on.

[TheFifthElement]

Whifflingpin, you forgot queueing :D

[Whifflingpin]

No - I associate queueing with the French and the Russians, more than the English.

[Niamh]

Whifflingpin, you forgot queueing :D

I've never seen queues quite like those in England. :D dont know how you all do it! we get frustrated over here if there are two people ahead of us in the queue! :p

[MarkBastable]

...I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbTfVb_GTWo&feature=related)about sums it up.

[Virgil]

I agree with almost everyone who pointed out the deficiencies. Here's some more: The Beatles and the Rolling Stones, Queens Victoria and Elizabeth, the first of course, Trafalgar Square and Duke of Wellington, conqueror of Napoleon, Tennyson, Wordsworth, Blake, King Henry V (the actual King, not the play), and of course the person who started it all, William the Conqueror.

And then the geography too: The English Channel, the Lake District.

And the old institutions: Oxford, Cambridge, Parliament.

And how we Americans learn about the English, British humor: Monty Python, Benny Hill, etc.

I think I'll protest the list and not vote.

Yikes, no wonder I had not voted! I had protested! :lol: Well I voted now and I would have maintained my protest to not vote if I had caught my original post.

Someone must have mentioned Shakespeare, because I surely would have listed him, and probably Milton's Paradise Lost should be included as well. I'm actually surprised that the King James Bible has gotten so few votes. Historically it's probably been the most widely read book by english speaking readers. Which brings to mind, another extremely widely read book that is an English icon, The Book of Common Prayer, first published in 1549.

[prendrelemick]

The Queues! of course, thats the one.

There has been alot about Dunkirk recently on tv, pictures of British soldiers desperately fleeing for their lives by queueing up in an orderly fashion on the beaches. Sort of sums us up.

[Fen]

I voted
Stonehenge for it representation of our pre-historic past.
King James Bible as it says a lot about our history, protestantism and the English language.
Jerusalem as it shows patriotism, sarcasm and it makes me think of churches and the innate sort of middle class hat wearing respectability.
Last but not least SS Windrush as the migration of people from our former empire came to England and changed it into the multicultural melting pot that we have today. Without that modern England would be completely different.

[TheFifthElement]

Jerusalem as it shows patriotism, sarcasm and it makes me think of churches and the innate sort of middle class hat wearing respectability.
Really? I always associate Jerusalem with drunken football hooligans.

[Fen]

Really? I always associate Jerusalem with drunken football hooligans.

I didn't know it was a crowd favourite. I heard it was the sort of thing people liked at their weddings hence the hat wearing.

[wessexgirl]

I didn't know it was a crowd favourite. I heard it was the sort of thing people liked at their weddings hence the hat wearing.

I think it has been appropriated as the essence of Englishness, (W.I anyone?), but I think many of those singing it aren't aware that Blake was not being complimentary but critical of our burgeoning industrial society. Aah, that's us Brits for you, show us a stick, and we'll get the wrong end of it :lol:.

Seriously though, without being jingoistic, a trait I hate, we seem to be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and beat the odds time and again. I suppose because of watching the Dunkirk commemorations, that came to my mind. It was an astounding defeat, but the courageousness of all those involved, with the mass evacuation and rescue of 1000s of men by all those little ships and fisherman, sailors, etc. many of whom were not in the military, was just astonishing. Crecy, Agincourt, and the Battle of Britain were all massive victories against the odds too. Perhaps it's something in our nature, stubborness, or blind stupidity, but there you go. I remember my old History teacher, who was American incidentally, so perhaps saw something in us that we didn't see ourselves, saying that what Churchill asked of the British people, and got, was something that Hitler could never ask of the German people during the war, even though he was a dictator. Perhaps it was because he was just that though, I don't know, I'm waffling. I suppose I'm just saying that I think the British character, with the old stereotype of the "plucky little Brit", maybe has some truth in it and should be there.

I can't believe that Shakespeare isn't on there, one of the many omissions, and one of the first things/people I would think most of the rest of the world see as quintessentially English. I would go with a cup of tea though, as it's certainly the first thing I always reach for, along with pretty much everyone I know. It's ingrained in me to put the kettle on as often as I can, from morning to night, and I think there would be a mutiny if my tea-dinking privileges were taken away from me at work :nod::lol:.

[dafydd manton]

henry the which???
only one I know anythig about is henry viii oh and the third if you count looking him up 3 days ago.
William the conqurer did not start it all what about Bod-bod whats her face, Aurthur, Alfred etc tc
? Churchill should be up thre too.

Boadicea,or, to the purist (bore) Budicca. Arthur, I regret to inform you, bach, was Welsh. Well, according to the 12th Century Mabinogion he was, but then, like St. Gerge, he may well not have even existed. Nor, it seems, did Robin Hood:thumbsup:

[Niamh]

Ah yes but myths and legends romance a countries past and the legends of Arthur and his Knights are to Britain that ChuChullain is to Ireland. :) In Le Morte D'Arthur, he is marked as a Briton who during the time it is based would have placed him within Englands bounaries moreso that Wales. :) However, i would not mark him as an Icon of England, but an Icon of Britain.

[dafydd manton]

Agreed, except that Brython was predominately Wales - and forget ye not that the Welsh possessions went as far as Catterick in the North. They lost the lot through drunkenness - some things never change!

[Niamh]

Ah yes good point.
Dont know about the drunkinness! From personal experience i've never met anyone who drinks more than the English!

Hooligan behaviour at football matchs should be on that list. ;)

[dafydd manton]

You're probably right, although the Scots are in with a good shout.

[Virgil]

Boadicea,or, to the purist (bore) Budicca. Arthur, I regret to inform you, bach, was Welsh. Well, according to the 12th Century Mabinogion he was, but then, like St. Gerge, he may well not have even existed. Nor, it seems, did Robin Hood:thumbsup:

King Arthur and the kinghts of the round table, Robbin Hood, and St. George! How could I forget? Of course. :thumbsup:

[prendrelemick]

Just watching the Trooping of the Colour from Horse-guards parade. Its so unashamedly splendid and British. Guardsmen marching up and down in their scarlet tunics and bearskins, the King's Troop on their polished horses, the Household cavalry with their shiney breastplates the military band playing stirring music, the cry of the Sargeant Majors ringing out. It has absolutely no parallel anywhere else in the world.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Spitfire hands down!

One of the most beautiful aircraft designs known, whose iconic fame grew from the Battle of Britain. But let’s not forget the oft overlooked Hawker Hurricane which shouldered the lions share in Britain’s defence during the “Battle”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUx3MU9iM6c&feature=related

The video just brought another icon to mind; “The White Cliffs of Dover”

I too agree that Westminster Abbey should be included.
Now I'm off to wipe the tear from my eye and regain my composure.

Gilliatt

[MarkBastable]

It has absolutely no parallel anywhere else in the world.

That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing.

[soundofmusic]

So many wonderful places; but my first thought is always Westminister Abby, such an amazing thing to walk by the sarcophaguses of the great kings and queens; the poets corner...
St Johns and Kings College in Cambridge...
The river where Shellys wife drown herself ....
The tower of London: Henry's wives and the spies from less than one hundred years ago spending their last days in those walls....
Oxford...
stratford on avon...




Hey Mark, Didn't anyone mention the Beatles?

[prendrelemick]

That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing.

Thats as maybe, but it is iconic and British. It has an inherent pointlessness - but we do it anyway. Its a mad dog and Englishman type of thing

[Scheherazade]

Just watching the Trooping of the Colour from Horse-guards parade.Have no idea what that is.

:goof:

[prendrelemick]

Have no idea what that is.

:goof:

7:15 tonight on BBC 2.

[Scheherazade]

7:15 tonight on BBC 2.Oh, excellent!

Instead of watching England vs USA, I can indulge in a spot of guards trooping colours.

[dafydd manton]

The one advantage is, since British Troops will conduct the ceremony without opposition, at least we'll be spared a possible ignominious defeat. Also, unless the Footy team is going to wear red jackets with brass buttons and bearskins/busbies, the Trooping could be a bit more colourful. (Football players do not need to get such a shine on their boots, because it all cracks off after the first kick!)

[prendrelemick]

Oh, excellent!

Instead of watching England vs USA, I can indulge in a spot of guards trooping colours.



Its a tough choice!

[Scheherazade]

Its a tough choice!Well, maybe I should have stick with BBC 2.