Difference between Shiites and Sunnis

[dark_182_88]

Hello, I was having a discussion with a muslim somewhere else, and as we were talking about the Qur'an and religions and all, I quoted parts from Bukhari and from the hadiths and so on...then he started cursing and tell me we dont believe in those drunks who wrote the Qur'an, they were drunk and we spit on what they wrote, and so on...the guy's a shiite.

So, I was wondering, what exactly is the difference between Shiites and Sunnis (I thought it was just a matter of Ali supposed to become the caliph)

[miss tenderness]

hello
u can check this link:
islamtomorrow.com
hope u get benefit
regards

[dark_182_88]

hey, im sorry but this doesnt clear things up at all :S

I mean, all it says basicaly is that we (muslims I mean) are muslims, and that shiites and sunnis and salafis and whatever are all muslims if they accept the qur'an and the sunnah.

It doesn't say which group supports which hadith, when this or that sect came to life, where and how do they differ, and so on...

Anyways, its ok...thanks anyways :)

Just a question though, do shiites believe in the al-tabari and Ibn Ishaq hadiths as sahih?

[(Nora)]

...then he started cursing
yeeeeeeees every time they do that .



Hello light . http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

first :
I am arabic child I cant talk English good . when you dont anderstand thing tell me pleaz . http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif



I have Question . where are you see the shiite ? do you Live in najaf http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

all Islamic Country's ( sunnah) except Iran and Iraq
( there is sunnah in Iraq and Iran )

, there is some shiites in arab Island
and syria but Littel .

they are nice people but they much time do thing wrong


the Right path is Sunnah ..


bye http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

[dark_182_88]

lol thats so subjective...well there r shiites in Lebanon too :$

But anyways thats not what matters, what's the difference (other that they believe that Ali bin abi talib is the first caliph)

[naria]

(Nora) ur not the one who decides what is the right path or not..u don't even know that there r many shiites in Lebanon..what makes u think u have the right to say they do wrong things or follow the wrong path?
dark_182_88..there r many differences between the two..try search engines for that..because they r pretty complicated..and people usually twist the facts when informing about them..
salam

[quietude]

the difference between sunni and shia started completly political and turned out rather complicated. However Shia's are still Muslims and the current division sparked by the war, the media and other alien forces is something relativly new - Shia and Sunni muslims have always lived peacefully together, as well as with Christians and Jews.

Anyways, instead of trying search for this topic on the internet, search for a couple good books. my suggestion, start off with the Idiots Guide to Islam.. excellent book, easy to read and follow and relevant and up to date.

peace out,

[dark_182_88]

Naria, I have done some researches (not many, but some). I know the basics (more or less). However, I'm trying to get the point of view of our muslim brothers and sisters over here, as this is the forum which talks about religion. I know that basicaly the difference started between those who consider that the caliphate should be to Ahlul Bait, and those who consider that the caliphate should go to Muhammad and his companions. However, I'm asking for example what hadiths do they consider as sahih, and so on...

Quietude, are you serious? Shia and Sunni muslims have always lived peacefully together?

Are you talking about the oppression they have suffered under the different caliphates and different rules (such as Umayyad and so on)? Shia are considered kuffar in the eyes of the sunni. Have you seen how they are treated in Saudi Arabia? There is about 5million shia if i'm not mistaken, and they're considered as second-class citizens. Have you seen how they're treated in Bahrain, how they constitute a pretty big chunk of the society, and still they have no political power whatsoever. What about the oppressive rule they lived in Iraq (such as the last one of Saddam). I can go on and on, but the bottom line is that Shia have been persecuted (just as christians and jews have) althroughout time and fights have always been going on between shia and sunni

[Nightshade]

Dark, I think this is one of thoses issues where its hard to judge what exactly the differances are, because neither side trulley knows the other, to know the differances you need to know the similarities, you need to be more than just familiar with both.
As for get along my best friend in the entire world is a Shia, and I am a sunni, at least for now.

The problems are continuously agrivated by people making assumptions about the other side. For instance I know people who would tell you that shhias pray to Al and when the open the mosshaff they say "Bismillah el rahman el rahim wa ALi"
In the name of God the most gracious the most merciful"
When in fact what they say is " Bismillah el rahman el rahim el alyo el Athiem"
In the name of God the most gracious the most merciful, The high, The mighty"
Which is actually what is printed in alot of the mosshafs.

[dark_182_88]

Oh I didn't know that...but so they say bismillah el rahman el rahim el 'ali (not ali) el athim u mean?

But hey, I got real close friends who are shiites, though we got some political differences that you would not believe, that's not what matters...there are many sunnis who are friends with shiites and vice-versa, however shias were persecuted by sunnis alot through time and still are in some gulf countries (they are considered as kuffar i mean)

[Shield&Sword]

ASSALAMO ALAIKOM

I was only passing in this web and found this subject, and while i am reading i found that there is some one asking about shia and sunna, and i felt that its my duty to clear things to ppl here after ALLAH permision and his help, and then with the few knowledge that he gave me. Scuse me for my weak english language,,,i see a person called dark asking about sunnah and shia , and i hope he started this subject to get some knowledge and nothing else, because for non muslim who ask these questions , another intention will be bad intention as u see. So Dark will be happy to help u and start giving u idea about it.
but i have few points want to mention, in ur first post, u wrote that ur friend said those drunk who wrote the Quran, i dont know if u were preaching to ur faith and was ur own opinion in Holy Quran, coz shia believe in Holy Quran so how they will say that drunk ppl wrote it, so strange , must be this person who said this not muslim at all.
My next point is that Attabari is explaining for Holy Quran not hadeeths book, and perhaps Dark didnt know that in islam there r 2 books of hadeeth called saheeh only and they r called Bukhari and Muslim,,so i wont blam him for not knowing them as he is not muslim, but didnt get his question as it contain wrong info and dont know from where he got these ideas to ask this question, get ur info from more safe sources.
And then i saw that u made research and arrived to conclusion that Calipha must be in Ahlul albait and those who consider THAT THE CALIPHATE MUST GO TO MUHMMAD {pbuh} AND HIS COMPANIONS. Well i dont know from where u got ur research dont and i ask u again to search in good sources not every thing u find in net, coz CALIPAH as u said means the one who come after prophet pbuh and get his position in handling the nation matters, so how Sunni claim that calipah must be in Muhmmad pbuh, second thing, the word AHlul albait mean ppl of house of prophet pbuh then how u say that we want that the calipah be in Muhmmad, but i think ur language also is not arabic, but i ask u please not to paste every thing ur eye see on net.
My third point was, that u claimed that shia r persecuted in Sunni countrys, and in first u said Forum and u were asking about difference, first when u say forum please post ur proofs also i can get a little baby and he cant write pages of words but without proofs they dont worth any thing,,the persecution thing we will talk about it and see who is really the one who persecute ofcourse with proofs.
Now i saw ppl wrote in this page that the thing is complicated and every one say something. Well ppl i would like to say to u that when when we make research or discuss something with other, then we must read thier books in which they believe and this way is known especially in religios talk, we read the other side books , like when we talk with christians we read thier books and in wht they believe to get wht they believe in. So if u want to sit with some one that curse and cry infront u and say we were persecuted then u r wasting time,, u should go to thier books and see in wht they believe and wht thier scholars say.
Finally Mr.dark u want to know about sunnah and shia or want to give ur personal opinion and spread something i can feel it.
Finally its Umayyah without d at the end of it, if u amde reasearch then u must read it and write it right, if u heared it with ur years then i can get ur mistake.
Sorry if i wrote alot , and will be happy to clear any thing in this forum to these who really want to know.
Assalamo alaikom

ASSALAMO ALAIKOM

So my point if u didnt get me, that here u wont find any help , how will u know that the sunni is right in his claims so and shia, ur forum will make u third part who watch 2 ppl claim something, so if u really want to know the truth u have ur internet its a wide world, and i can give u names of books in which shia believe and books of sunnah, and u search in web. i dont know how u begin a forum u dont have any opinion in it and cant particiape in it as u r not presenting any side, its not called forum. And if u want opinions of muslims u said u have friends shia and sunna, u can ask them i think they r enough, and for getting knowledge go and read thier books.
Another claim i saw from that sunnah say Kuffar about shia , please show me ur proof , and if its based on ur friends opinion then wht u wait from this site to give u more, and u saw ppl who his shia friend said about sunnah and, then after few lines he say Sunni say about shia kuffar,, ur way of presenting things and talking is not forum talking and so strange.
Thx , and scuse me for my weak english.
Assalamo alaikom,

[dark_182_88]

ASSALAMO ALAIKOM

Wa 'aleikom el salam,


I was only passing in this web and found this subject, and while i am reading i found that there is some one asking about shia and sunna, and i felt that its my duty to clear things to ppl here after ALLAH permision and his help, and then with the few knowledge that he gave me. Scuse me for my weak english language,,,i see a person called dark asking about sunnah and shia , and i hope he started this subject to get some knowledge and nothing else, because for non muslim who ask these questions , another intention will be bad intention as u see. So Dark will be happy to help u and start giving u idea about it.

First its funny how you "got the permission from Allah", lol, how cute...and as for u being weak in english its ok bro...and finaly no i didn't post this thread as of a bad intention but as to clarify a couple of things.


but i have few points want to mention, in ur first post, u wrote that ur friend said those drunk who wrote the Quran, i dont know if u were preaching to ur faith and was ur own opinion in Holy Quran, coz shia believe in Holy Quran so how they will say that drunk ppl wrote it, so strange , must be this person who said this not muslim at all.

Lol, first I'm sorry I didnt mean the Qur'an. Read what I said and you'll see that I was referring to Al-Bukhari and to Muslim. I was talking about them and the ahadith that they wrote I didn't mean about the Qur'an. He said that he doesn't believe in those drunks who wrote the ahadith.


My next point is that Attabari is explaining for Holy Quran not hadeeths book, and perhaps Dark didnt know that in islam there r 2 books of hadeeth called saheeh only and they r called Bukhari and Muslim,,so i wont blam him for not knowing them as he is not muslim, but didnt get his question as it contain wrong info and dont know from where he got these ideas to ask this question, get ur info from more safe sources.

Again, I apologize, I mixed up between the tafsir and hadith. But what I basicaly mean is in what authors do they believe (not necesarily about the ahadith)...because I also quoted stuff from Ibn Ishaq and others such as Al tabbari and others and he said we dont believe in those we dont believe in Bukhari and Muslim and the sunni propanda (or something like that, basicaly i didnt know if he was saying that shia dont believe in Bukhari and Muslim alone or also in Ibn Ishaq, Tabbari and others...)


And then i saw that u made research and arrived to conclusion that Calipha must be in Ahlul albait and those who consider THAT THE CALIPHATE MUST GO TO MUHMMAD {pbuh} AND HIS COMPANIONS. Well i dont know from where u got ur research dont and i ask u again to search in good sources not every thing u find in net, coz CALIPAH as u said means the one who come after prophet pbuh and get his position in handling the nation matters, so how Sunni claim that calipah must be in Muhmmad pbuh, second thing, the word AHlul albait mean ppl of house of prophet pbuh then how u say that we want that the calipah be in Muhmmad, but i think ur language also is not arabic, but i ask u please not to paste every thing ur eye see on net.

Ok, I didn't quite understand all what you said, however, my point was the following. What I said was that shia believe that the khalifa (caliphate) must go to Ahlul Bait (the house of the prophet) and that Muhammad talked about that many times (that he had named Ali as his successor if u want), and so that shia don't believe in the 3 caliphs that came after Muhammad but believe Ali bin abi talib to be the first khalifa. And Sunni consider the first khalifa to have started right after the death of Muhammad and that the khalifa should go to Muhammad and his companions, and that Ali was the 3rd or 4th khalifa. I don't see what's wrong in what I just said above :s


My third point was, that u claimed that shia r persecuted in Sunni countrys, and in first u said Forum and u were asking about difference, first when u say forum please post ur proofs also i can get a little baby and he cant write pages of words but without proofs they dont worth any thing,,the persecution thing we will talk about it and see who is really the one who persecute ofcourse with proofs.

Well, here, the guy that I was talking to on another forum (the ****e guy) has nothing to do with what I'm saying here about the persecution (neither did he tell me that shia are persecuted). I talked about shia being persecuted when quietude said that Shia and Sunni have always lived peacefully together, which is a total myth (with all due respect).


So if u want to sit with some one that curse and cry infront u and say we were persecuted then u r wasting time,, u should go to thier books and see in wht they believe and wht thier scholars say.

Their religious beliefs and the differences between the two has got nothing to do with knowing that Shias have been persecuted throughout time by Sunnis.


Finally its Umayyah without d at the end of it, if u amde reasearch then u must read it and write it right, if u heared it with ur years then i can get ur mistake.

If your talking about the muslim dinasty, then in english its written Umayyad, as in the Umayyad dynasty, same as they say the Abbassid dynasty, and the Fatimide and Mamluk Dynasty, and so on...in arabic it differs but in english that's how its spelled


So my point if u didnt get me, that here u wont find any help , how will u know that the sunni is right in his claims so and shia, ur forum will make u third part who watch 2 ppl claim something, so if u really want to know the truth u have ur internet its a wide world, and i can give u names of books in which shia believe and books of sunnah, and u search in web. i dont know how u begin a forum u dont have any opinion in it and cant particiape in it as u r not presenting any side, its not called forum. And if u want opinions of muslims u said u have friends shia and sunna, u can ask them i think they r enough, and for getting knowledge go and read thier books.

That is what I was asking about. I was asking about which books Shia believed in because even when I quoted from Ibn Ishaq and Al Tabbari he said that he doesn't believe in those (but maybe he was referring to Bukhari and Muslim). Therefore I want to know which ahadith they believe in, and if shia and sunnis believe in the same tafsir and other books about the Qur'an. That is mainly what I wanted to know but nobody answered me that though its an easy question if your a muslim :s

Anyways, this is a forum, and I posted the thread so that people talk about it so that I know more about it and so that the different parties know others' point of view. That's why it's a forum, its for people who do not know or know some stuff but dont know other stuff, or wish to hear other people's opinion.

And yes I have shia friends as well as sunni friends, but we usualy don't discuss religion we usualy talk about other things :s ... and this here is a forum about religion and it is meant for discussions as that ... i dont get what's the problem here


Another claim i saw from that sunnah say Kuffar about shia , please show me ur proof , and if its based on ur friends opinion then wht u wait from this site to give u more, and u saw ppl who his shia friend said about sunnah and, then after few lines he say Sunni say about shia kuffar,, ur way of presenting things and talking is not forum talking and so strange.
Thx , and scuse me for my weak english.
Assalamo alaikom,

I dont understand what you found wrong in what I said. What I said about Shia persecution isn't from the guy that I was debating with (my "friend"), but from personal knowledge.

Show me proof? Have you read what I wrote in my last post? Have you read how I talked about the Shia in Saudi Arabia how they're considered to be second-class citizens? And the same is for shia in the gulf states (blad al khalij in case you didn't understand), where they are a majority in Bahrain for example but are still not represented enough in the governement neither do they hold power. Many Sunnis used to consider Shia to be kuffar, although now not as much as before. Although the salafis, talibans or al qaeda as well as others consider them to be kuffar and consider them to be heretics and some even ask for their killing as they consider them to be apostates. They are also considered as second-class citizens in Saudi arabia because they do not follow the Wahabi religion of Sunni Islam.

Come on, even Shias were/are persecuted by Sunni muslims, not only christians and jews ;)

[win]

Can anyone tell me if the ancient story of Gilgamesh has had any influence on civilization

[zado_k]

I very much enjoyed:

An Introduction to Shi'i Islam: History and Doctrines of Twelver Shi'ism by M Momen

which although it concentrates on Twelvers actually covers the differences with Sunni mainstream very well.

Z

[beroq]

There's a harmonious unity and a peaceful diversity in genuine Islamic tradition. Unity cannot manifest itself without entering into the realm of multiplicity. From multiplicity, men desire to go to the Unity. Islam's great emphasis on unity, therefore, does not prevent diversity within the tradition. Nor could Islam have integrated a vast segment of humanity with diverse ethnic, linguistic and cultural backgrounds (Islam's ceography being the whole world) without making diverse interpretation of its teachings. The Sunni and Shi'te schools of Islam should be taken into consideration from this perspective.

Nearly all Muslims belong to one of these three groups: Sunnis, Shi'ites and Kharijites. Kharijites have always been few in number today. The most important divison within Islam is between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Almost 86 percent of Muslims are Sunnis, a term comes from "followers of sunnah of Prophet and the majority," in Arabic. About 13-14 percent of Muslims are Shi'ites, a word derived from, in Arabic, "the partisans of Ali." They in turn divide into Twelve Imam Shi'ites, Isma'ilies and Zaydis. Sunnis also have their sub-divisons such as Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi' and Hanafi, Hanafis being the largest group.

The Shi'ite seperated from the Sunnis upon the death of the Prophet when the question of succession became vital, with Shi'ites believing that Ali should become the caliph. The problem, however, was more profound than one of personalities. It was also related to the function of the person who was to succeed the Prophet.

Shi'ism must not be considered a merely political movement. Rather, it developped its own school of law, philosophy, theology and other religious sciences, thus diversifying and strengthening Islamic tradition as a whole. Debates and confrontations continued between Shi'ite and Sunni positions, dialogues that played no small role in the development of religious thought in both worlds. Despite periods of different military and religious confrontatitons between the two, they also lived in peace and harmony in many climes for long centuries.

Shi'ism is no way comparable to the seperation of Prostetantism from the general teaching of Catholicism.