King Arthur (?)

[imaditzyreader]

OK...so here is my question...

My English teacher says that there are two different myths about how KIng Arthur got his sword (Excalibur).

He says that the first is from the lady in the lake. This is the accepted one.

Then he says that Excaliber also could have come from the sword in the stone. I have never heard that this was a legend.

Could I have your opinions on this??

thank you, me

[Schokokeks]

I only know the version with the stone that it was stuck in a stone and nobody but Arthur (being just a boy or teenager I think it was...) managed to pull it out.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

There is a theory that the "sword in the stone" legend was based on a much earlier tale about a bronze-age tribe that first learnt how to smelt iron, thus producing far better swords and ushering in the iron age, gaining supremacy over neighbouring tribes in the process. Like a lot of the legends, this oral traditional legend was corrupted by the usual "chinese whispers" process and became linked with Arthur.

I'm afraid that I don't know the provenence of this theory but it's interesting.

[PeterL]

Your teacher is right.

[Virgil]

Yes, I think you teacher was right. I think they were two separate swords. But I'm not 100% sure.

[~Maude~]

I have heard both, I remember hearing the sword in the stone version first and later I heard the lady in the lake story.

[shortysweetp]

i too have heard both stories and there are several movies about each i believe. I will look these up and let you know the titles. I know for sure that there is a cartoon version by disney of the Sword in the Stone

[shortysweetp]

here is a link to the Lady of the Lake version (text)
http://www.2020site.org/kingarthur/

here is a link for the Sword in the Stone version (text)
http://www.kellscraft.com/ledgends1.html

[EAP]

The legend of the sword in the stone is probably adapted from Persian/Arabian/Turkish literature.

[emily655321]

My friend wrote her college thesis on the King Arthur legend, so when I saw this I e-mailed her, and this is what she had to say about it:

In Malory's version of the legends (which*could be considered to be the definitive version as it is the last great work of Arthurian literature of the middle ages (1480s) and since it brings together all the narrative threads that had been knocking about for three hundred years and makes a complete whole, plus it is the version most modern retellings are based on) Arthur breaks the sword from the stone ("Whoso pulleth out this sword...") and Merlin takes him to the lake where the Lady of the Lake bequeathes to him Excalibur and it's magical sheath which protects the wearer from death. Later Morgan steals Excalibur and throws the sheath into a lake, which is why, it is implied, Arthur died from the wounds he recieved at Camlann. There are, of course, other variations that I could look up if I had my books with me. In the earliest sources Arthur's sword is called Caliburn(us) and I think there may be a version in which he breaks*Caliburn and it is reforged into Excalibur (ex Caliburn*= Latin, from Caliburn).So, at least in Malory's version, the Lady of the Lake doesn't give Excalibur to Arthur; he gets it from the stone, and then she gives him the sheath and formalizes Arthur's ownership of the sword.

[Virgil]

My friend wrote her college thesis on the King Arthur legend, so when I saw this I e-mailed her, and this is what she had to say about it:
Emily - My last grad class that I took was on the Arthurian legends and loved it. My grad school required that we have an area of concentration, and I concentrated on the 20th century english novel. After the Arthurian legends class, which of course was at the end, I had wished I had concentrated on medieval lit. It seemed like so much more fun, and you don't wallow in depressing works as much.

Anyway, you're friend seems very intelligent and too bad she doesn't participate in lit net.

[rachel]

Emily,
your friend's writing of the events of the sword is what I learned.Because just as the legend of Arthur evolves and different events happen, so too the sword, its import and its part in his life. the lady morgana lefey spends a great part of his existence trying to ruin or destroy his life. and as she is part faerie she has more time to do these th ings.
i have Mallory, a second edition i believe. I was in a little known tiny bookstore two summers ago and was browsing the old dusty and slightly ripped jacketed section of the store. And there it was. And for an embarrasingly low price. No one had noticed or if they did ,no one had cared.
I picked it up with trembling hands and right then and there had tears beginning to fall down my very cold feeling face.
I actually told the sales person but she didn't care and so I paid for and brought my treasure home. awesome.

[emily655321]

i have Mallory, a second edition i believe. I was in a little known tiny bookstore two summers ago and was browsing the old dusty and slightly ripped jacketed section of the store. And there it was. And for an embarrasingly low price. No one had noticed or if they did ,no one had cared.
I picked it up with trembling hands and right then and there had tears beginning to fall down my very cold feeling face.
I actually told the sales person but she didn't care and so I paid for and brought my treasure home. awesome.Wow. :eek2: That's amazing, Rachel. Congratulations on finding something so precious! It should be in a museum, but I'm sure you will always treasure it much more than they would.

[rachel]

i thought about such but my children are totally in love with all such things and have literally thousands of books, many rare, that they saved up for forever. I shall probably give it to one of them and entrust that they will do what is proper in their time.

[crisaor]

I believe they're two separate swords.

From what I recall, Arthur's first sword was the one he removed from the stone, the one that made him king. Later on, when Arthur fought Sir Pellinore against the advise of Merlin, the sword broke. It was then that Merlin took Arthur to the presence of the Lady of the Lake, who gifted him with Excalibur and its magical scabbard.

[imaditzyreader]

Thanks a TON you guys. Now I can go to my English teacher (who, although he i s a great teacher, he cannot stand to have anyone correct him) and tell him that he is wrong. (also some of these repeiles are really interesting)

[PeterL]

Thanks a TON you guys. Now I can go to my English teacher (who, although he i s a great teacher, he cannot stand to have anyone correct him) and tell him that he is wrong. (also some of these repeiles are really interesting)

He isn't wrong.

[imaditzyreader]

Yesss, well he is the one who said that it came from the stone, and I told him that it came from the Lady in the Lake. So from the most part of what every one has said (that the sword from the stone broke, and thus Merlin led Arthur to the Lady in the Lake), I am the one who is right and not him. Sorry if I am confusing. (lol)

[PeterL]

In the top post you wrote that your teacher said that there were two myths about how Arthur came by his sword. There are two sword getting stories. That's pretty simple.

[Pendragon]

Sorry, I just have to post this. The little poem in my signature says it all.http://www.websmileys.com/sm/dressed/bek150.gif

[Agruso]

I'm doing a school project on Arthurian Legends, some of the resources found in this thread have been very helpful. 2020site.org/kingarthur/calibur.html is associated with a exaclibur.

[Niamh]

I have read many stories about king arthur. Some say he pulled it from the stone, others he was given it by the lady of the lake and some that say it was given to Merlin by the Lady of the Lake and then he placed it in the stone and puts the power on the sword regarding its bearer.

[Virgil]

If memory serves me correctly I think it was two different swords. I forget which was Excaliber.

[bluevictim]

This thread reminds me of the wise words of Dennis:

Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

[Jallan]

The earliest documents dealing with Arthur are in Latin or medieval French. In many of them Arthur is said to have a sword named Caliburn or Escalibor. The second version of the name is apparently just an enhanced version of the first. In some French romances the sword Caliburn/Escalibur appears in Gawain’s possession, as though it were his. One may imagine that Arthur has lent or given his sword to Gawain who is Arthur’s nephew and Arthur’s best knight.

Sir Thomas Malory, in his English romance Le Morte d’Arthur was the first to name the sword as Excalibur with an x. He may have found that form somewhere, or may just have felt that it looked more classy. The letter “x” in Latin often becomes “s” in French and Malory might have just been imagining that he was restoring the form to something closer to the original version.

In medieval Welsh texts, Arthur’s sword is named Kaletvwlch, usually normalized as Caledfwlch in modern English translations, following normal rules for normalizing medieval Welsh names. Kaletvwlch/Caledfwlch is used as a translation name for Calburn/Escalibor in medieval Welsh translations or adaptations of Latin or medieval French Arthurian material.

According to Geoffrey of Monmouth in his Historia Regem Britanniae, which is the earliest text to mention Caliburn, it was forged in the Isle of Avalon. See http://www.lib.rochester.edu/CAMELOT/geofhkb.htm and search on “Caliburn”.

Towards the end of the 12th century or the beginning of the 13th century, a work known as “The Story of Merlin” was written in both prose and verse and claimed to have been authored by a Burgundian named Robert de Boron. This repeats much of the story of Merlin found in Geoffrey of Monmouth’s “Historia” with variations and many additions, including the story of the sword in the stone, here found for the first time in surviving tales. The sword in the stone is not given a name in this story. Many readers may have assumed it was Caliburn/Escalibor. And they author may have intended this identification, but if so, he did not make it explicit.

The original “Story of Merlin” ended when Arthur was made king, but some later authors extended it to cover the first three years of Arthur’s reign to better serve as an introduction to the vast Prose Lancelot. This expanded version is usually known as the Vulgate Merlin. Here Arthur’s sword Escalibor is for the first time explicitly identified with the sword in the stone. See http://www.archive.org/details/arthurian02sommuoft, page 94:


Quant li rois artus fu desestordis si traist lespee du feure qui ieta ausi grant clarte comme se doi chierge i eussen este alumees . & ce fue cele espee quil ot prinse el perron . Et les lettres qui estoient escrites en lespee disoient quele avoit non escalibor & cest . j . non ebrieu qui dist en franchois trenche fer & achier & fust si disent les lettres voir si comme vous orres el conte cha en arriere .

This is has been translated into modern English by Rupert T. Pickens in volume I of Norris J. Lacy's Lancelot-Grail. See http://www.amazon.com/Lancelot-Grail-Arthurian-Vulgate-Post-Vulgate-Translation/dp/0824077334/ref=cm_lmf_tit_6. Pickens translates:


After King Arthur had been bought back to his senses, he drew his sword from its scabbard, and it cast a great light as though two tapers had been lit. This was the stone he had pulled out of the stone. And the letters that were written on the sword said that it was named Escalibor—this is a Hebrew word that means in French “cuts through iron and steel and wood,” and the inscription told the truth, as you will hear in the story a little further along.

Note that attempting to make Caliburn or Escalibor or Kaletvwlch into a Hebrew word, of whatever meaning doesn’t work at all in reality. The Vulgate Merlin was also translated into late Middle English. See http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=cme;cc=cme;rgn=div1;view=text;idno=Merlin;no de=Merlin%3A7, page 118 and http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/barevfr.htm, line 132 and following.

(In a later part of the Vulgate Merlin we are specifically told that Arthur gave Escalibor to Gawain when he knighted him. Arthur kept for his own a very good sword named Marmiadoise which he had won from King Rions/Rience in battle. Accordingly Gawain has the sword Escalibor in the Prose Lancelot. Presumably Arthur took back the sword after Gawain’s death, so that he can tell Girflet or Bedwyr/Bedivere to throw it away after his last battle.)

Sir Thomas Malory in his Le Morte d’Arthur adapts from the same text of the Vulgate Merlin. See http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mart/mart008.htm:


Sir, said Merlin to Arthur, fight not with the sword that ye had by
miracle, till that ye see ye go unto the worse, then draw it out and do your best.

Later:


Then he drew his sword Excalibur, but it was so bright in his enemies’ eyes, that it gave light like thirty torches.

So the Vulgate Merlin and Malory clearly identify Caliburn/Escalibor/Excalibur with the sword in the stone. The same identification is also made in a medieval Welsh text seemingly mainly derived from the original “Story of Merlin”. See http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/kaledvwlch.html.

However there is another different expanded version or the “Story of Merlin” which provides a very different account of Arthur’s early reign. This variant account is often known today as the Post-Vulgate Merlin. It is found on the web at http://books.google.com/books?id=Gak-QYW4Z-QC&printsec=titlepage for volume 1 and at http://books.google.com/books?id=fpkCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=intitle:merlin+inauthor:ulrich#PPP10,M1 for volume 2. In this account King Arthur breaks his sword in single-combat battle with King Pellinor. (Whether this broken sword is supposed to be the sword from the stone we are not told.) Merlin then takes Arthur to a distant lake, from which an arm rises, of which the hand holds a sword. The account is translated into modern English by Martha Asher in volume IV of Norris J. Lacy’s Lancelot-Grail. See http://www.amazon.com/Lancelot-Grail-Arthurian-Vulgate-Post-Vulgate-Translation/dp/0815307489/ref=cm_lmf_tit_13:


While they talked this way they looked toward the middle of the lake and saw a sword appear above the water in a hand, the arm of which appeared up to the elbow; the arm was clothed with white silk, and the hand held the sword out of the water.

“Now,” said Merlin, “you can see the sword of which I told you, the one you will carry away.”


A maiden appears riding a mule. Merlin recognizes her as the one whose magic alone controls the magic of the lake. He asks that the sword be given to Arthur and she agrees provided that Arthur will grant her the first gift she asks of him. Arthur accepts the condition.


She entered the water quickly and passed over it with completely dry feet, in such a way that neither her feet nor anything else got wet, and she came to the sword and took it. The hand that had held it up withdrew into the water and appeared no more at this time.

Merlin explains that the scabbard in which sword is enclosed is of more worth than the sword, as none who wears that scabbard will lose blood in battle. He tells Arthur that the scabbard will be stolen from him and that the maiden was not really walking on water, but on an invisible bridge.

Some time later the maiden comes to court, tells Arthur that the name of the sword is Escalibor, and asks as her gift that the king grant her either the head of a damsel who had come to court inflicted with an enchanted sword which could not be untied or with the head of the knight Balain who had succeeded in untying the sword. Balain hears his and recognizes the maiden as an enchantress who had slain his brother with poison and for whom he has been searching for three years. Balain beheads the maiden and is therefore banished from court by Arthur.

The account of the Post-Vulgate Merlin was the base for a work in medieval Spanish known as the Baladro del sabio Merlin. An English translation is available on the web at http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/baladro/index.html . Unfortunately the account of the taking of the sword from the lake is accidently missing from this Spanish adaptation. It should have appeared between chapter 21 and chapter 22. Indeed it is referred to at the beginning of chapter 22. Chapter 23 relates how the sword is named and how the damsel is beheaded.

A manuscript known as the Cambridge manuscript of the Post-Vulgate Merlin also contains some Vulgate Merlin material inserted at the beginning of Arthur’s reign. It accordingly contains both the Vulgate Merlin account according to which Escalibor is identical to the sword in the stone and the Post-Vulgate Merlin account according to which Arthur got Escalibor from the lake.

The beginning of Sir Thomas Malory’s Le Morte d’Arthur was taken from a similar manuscript, and so, in contradiction, also has both versions. I have already referenced Malory’s account of the Vulgate Merlin version. The Post-Vulgate Merlin account of how Arthur obtained Excalibur appears in Malory at http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mart/mart024.htm. Malory has modified the story so that the sword is taken from the lake by Arthur himself. He also names the maiden as the “Lady of the Lake”, though since she dies soon, even in his account she is not the main Lady of the Lake of late Arthurian tales. Malory’s account of the naming of the sword appears at http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mart/mart029.htm.

So there are two separate conflicting accounts of the origin of Caliburn/Escalibor/Excalibur/Kaletvwlch in the medieval Arthurian tales that have come down to us. There may have been other tales of how Arthur got his sword which have not come down to us.

Some modern authors attempt to reconcile the two accounts. For example, in the film Excalibur, Excalibur is originally a sword given to Uther Pendragon (though it is not given as Uther’s sword in any medieval account), then becomes the sword in the stone, then, when broken, is reforged under the lake by the Lady of the Lake. (This may partly derive from an account in Wolfram von Eschenbach’s Parzival] according to which Parzival/Perceval’s sword is broken but is reforged by plunging the two parts into a magic lake.)