Do you consider your religious book a literary book?

[Ranoo]

Whatever your religion is ,do you consider your religious book (e.g. Holy Qur'an , Bible , Torah ..............etc) a literary book ?

If you answer by either yes or no ,please tell us why.Also it would be great if you mention the name of your religious book. :D

[dark_182_88]

No religious book can be a literary book.

One has to take into consideration the social factor in mind, the communities and their traditions, the morals at the time, the evolution that happened from then to now, the difference in language and terms of words and how they become different after translation, and so on.

[emily655321]

But don't we have to do the same to understand a piece of literature? Many ammateurs reading Shakespeare without footnotes have misunderstood what would have seemed obvious to readers of his own time.

I've always thought religious texts hold more value when read as literature (which is not to say "fiction," because there is non-fiction literature, as well), than as historical documents or rule-books. The Song of Solomon, in the Bible, for instance, is generally regarded as a great work of literature, separate from its value as a religious work. It also bears mention that people in modern times tend to regard religious tales differently than did ancient peoples. Long before the religious texts were written, the tales included in them were passed down for generations as oral stories. This is the reason they are often in poetic format; it's just easier to recite poetry than it is to remember prose. People would gather around the storyteller while he spoke of their history and religious beliefs, and also to learn moral lessons from the parables he told. They wanted to be entertained as well as informed, and if a holy-person wanted his followers to remember the tales, he knew he had to make them entertaining. So, at the root of religious texts is the art of storytelling. In my opinion, they are the earliest example we have of what we now call "literature."

[Xamonas Chegwe]

What an interesting question!

The more I think about it, the more I realise that I don't know.

In a way, because religious writings have become such an established part of all societies, they are a part of the literary history of those societies. In another way, they belong more in the realm of textbooks, or self-help manuals.

Are they fiction? Their followers would scream, "NO!", whilst non-believers would consider them to be, at least in part, fabrications; attempts to explain the origin and workings of the universe in the terms available at the time that they were written.

Are they fact? Surely only the most hard-line, fundamentalists could seriously consider the Adam & Eve or Noah's ark stories (present, I believe in one form or another in the bible, koran and torah) to be anything other than an allegory. The same applies to tales from other religions, the Baghavad Gita, for example.

Are we to consider only books relating to current religions, or should we include Greek & Norse mythology, for example, as holy books? After all, these represent religious thinking that predates most of the world's established faiths.

Personally, I have no religious book to call my own, considering all religion to be mythology. (I mean no offence by this, it is just my view of the world. I respect everyone's right to hold their own view, however different from my own.)

I will be reading this thread with great interest. It's about time there was some true discussion of religious writings in this forum, instead of endless threads trying to convert people from one faith to another. I do not consider posts of that nature to be in the spirit of this forum and think that they border on 'disrespect'.

[rachel]

I absolutely believe the Holy Bible to be the supreme work of literature by God.When I look at all nature around me and see the superlative beauty it entails and the beauty of humans, I am not talking about faults or hatred or anything like that, well then I see a Once upon a time.
I believe as did JRR Tolkien that the Bible is the greatest and most beautiful Faerie Tale of all eternity. And not meaning a work of fiction but the Love Story of all time complete with evil and good and twists and turns in the story line. Of hearts broken and miracles and finally a happily ever after.
Oh yes I truly do believe it is an awesome work of literature.

[Virgil]

But don't we have to do the same to understand a piece of literature? Many ammateurs reading Shakespeare without footnotes have misunderstood what would have seemed obvious to readers of his own time.

I've always thought religious texts hold more value when read as literature (which is not to say "fiction," because there is non-fiction literature, as well), than as historical documents or rule-books. The Song of Solomon, in the Bible, for instance, is generally regarded as a great work of literature, separate from its value as a religious work. It also bears mention that people in modern times tend to regard religious tales differently than did ancient peoples. Long before the religious texts were written, the tales included in them were passed down for generations as oral stories. This is the reason they are often in poetic format; it's just easier to recite poetry than it is to remember prose. People would gather around the storyteller while he spoke of their history and religious beliefs, and also to learn moral lessons from the parables he told. They wanted to be entertained as well as informed, and if a holy-person wanted his followers to remember the tales, he knew he had to make them entertaining. So, at the root of religious texts is the art of storytelling. In my opinion, they are the earliest example we have of what we now call "literature."
Wow, Emily said it perfectly, as far as the way I feel. I kept the whole quote in because it should be re-emphasized and because I couldn't add a single word to make it better.

[IrishCanadian]

I will be reading this thread with great interest. It's about time there was some true discussion of religious writings in this forum, instead of endless threads trying to convert people from one faith to another. I do not consider posts of that nature to be in the spirit of this forum and think that they border on 'disrespect'.
Amen to that!
Do I consider Holy books to be lit.? Yes. The best reasons why have been stated already (the Bible being full of great allagory and poetry). But what is considered a Holy book? For example, A Grief Observed by CS LEwis is not fiction, is considered literature, and deals strongly with religious themes and revelations. You tell me if its "holy", but it is definitely literature. Whether or not a Holy bok is lit. --lit books MAY be Holy. What do you think? Am I crazy?

[emily655321]

Wow, Emily said it perfectly, as far as the way I feel. I kept the whole quote in because it should be re-emphasized and because I couldn't add a single word to make it better.Aww, thanks, Virgil. :D

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I would like to add my thanks to Emily for her post. It appeared as I was typing mine and I didn't get time to comment after I finished. This is exactly the kind of post I was hoping to see in this thread. You put across some of the points that I raised far better than I managed to - I tip my hat to you madam.

I hope that this standard is maintained.

Irish - No I don't think you're crazy - but then, who am I to say? I am sure that Ranoo was referring to the accepted texts upon which religions are founded - the bible, koran, etc. But realistically, one must include such works as the book of mormon, alternative translations of the accepted texts & the apocryphal writings that surround all religions.

And Virgil - for once we are in agreement - let's hope this sets a precedent.

[Virgil]

And Virgil - for once we are in agreement - let's hope this sets a precedent.
Xamonas - I'm sorry if I've been contentious on another thread with you. Please be assured I'm not picking on you personally. I just disagree there. Hopefully as here we'll agree at times too.

[Stanislaw]

Well I am not sure as to how a Holy BOOK could not be literary... doesn't that imply that it is written, and possibly written well...why would a book be non literary, or more importantly why would a holy text be written poorly...

Most Holy Texts arew written well so as to convey the meaning to its audiance.

Literary does not mean fiction.

[emily655321]

Well I am not sure as to how a Holy BOOK could not be literary... doesn't that imply that it is written, and possibly written well...why would a book be non literary...Do you consider the dictionary to be literature? That's written pretty well. What about the American Constitution? Or a history text book?

I think people who don't see their "holy book" as literature might argue that it is a book of history and rules; factual information passed down by God. The word "literature" tends to have connotations of working and re-working what has been written, carefully crafting the language to make the desired impression; in other words, an art or craft.

However, there don't seem to be too many people disagreeing with the popular consensus here.

[Stanislaw]

The constitution of the USA, I would consider literature, it was written with the outmost care to present what the authors felt defined the USA. A history text is also literary, it does present facts, much like the Holy Bible, however, it also does contain storys, and in each the words are chosen, and translated to convey the meaning of the word...though it is divinely inspired, humans did author it, and later on translate it...the same with any holy book.

As for the dictionary, it is not, it is just pure fact, presented, but it is not meant to be read, it is meant to be a reference manual.

[Ranoo]

Hi ,
Thanks all for participating. Really your participations are very informative
originally posted by IrishCanadian
The best reasons why have been stated already (the Bible being full of great allagory and poetry).
In fact, I have never got the chance to read the Bible .It is new to me to know that it's written in poetry, really interesting :banana: .

[Avalive]

Y.
E..
A...

[falling*moon]

hi...


please read these words (from a book i've read) and tell me if they are considerd lit..or scientific..


“surely We created you out of dust, then of a sperm-drop, then of a leech-like clot, then out of a lump of flesh, formed and unformed, that We may make clearer (Our signs) to you; and We establish in the wombs what We will, till a stated term, then We deliver you as infants, then that you may come of age; and some of you die, and some of you are kept back unto the vilest state of life, that after knowing, they may know nothing…” (22: 5)


see ya

[Jewels83]

Well, to me Holy Books; if beleived in, are to be adopted; are to be loved and are to be reflected continuously in our lives; because at the end of the day it's not a book for your favorite author; not a story that takes you to another world and period; it's a bout what you beleive in (God, Jesus, Allah, Budha, etc..) i.e something that is far bigger and intense than men (that is if you beleive in a superior power or God).

Other books (in that case literary books; or so we can call them) may give me an idea or two for me to apply in my life, the "Daily Reflections for highly effective people" would also guide me through life to a certain extent, a Virginia Woolf book would bring closer me to my favorite author. But these books do not give me the equal gratification i get when i read about God. I wouldn't compare a Holy Book (a book inspired or dictated or whatever by God) to a man made book; purely man made that is.

Again it's all about what you beleive in. If your a Christian by inheritage you might think that the Bible is an amazing literary book, that it has a plot, climax and whatever other elements to a novel like someone said. If your also Muslim, you could say that the language in the Quran is amazingly sophisticated and thus could very much called a literary book..etc.

It depends on what you wanna get out of that "Holy Book"; you wanna study the language, metaphores, symbols,rhymes and may be evaluate it as whole, or you wanna know more about the "God" the book is talking about and what does that "God" want from you as a beleiver.
Keep it up guys!!!

[falling*moon]

how about if this book ,which we keep under our beds since 2 billion years, told us about facts discoverd by science just now??????


tell me ..

[Ranoo]

Hi ,
Thanks Jewels83 for your contribution
And thanks falling*moon for yours too. But I have to make myself clearer ,because I can see something in your tone falling*moon.
I'm a Muslim and my religious book is Holy Qur'an and I read some chapters (suoar )every day.The part you quoted is taken from Holy Qur'an. Think you want to say it is a scientific book because of its inimitability nature in that part of study. Well, my replay to this is that Qur'an is not only miraculous in scientific part but also it's miraculous regarding different things and its high literary style is one of them ( this doesn't mean I can assume that Qur'an is a literary book or scientific one ,because even Arab ,who were talented in poetry admitted that its greatness and they said it cant be composed by a poet.

Maybe some members and you falling*moon need to know why this Question came to my mind:

1-The Holly Qur'an includes some Stories about the past prophets "Jesus, Moses ,Noah , Adam, Abraham ,Solemn….etc other than our prophet Mohamed peace be upon them all. In addition, it contains tales about the past civilization such as cavemen ….and so on
.
Please read this part from The Cave Surahabout prophet Moses peace be upon him.
. 60. Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel."
61. But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel.
62. When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey."
63. He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!"
64. Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come).
65. So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.
66. Moses said to him: "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"
67. (The other) said: "Verily thou wilt not be able to have patience with me!"
68. "And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"
69. Moses said: "Thou wilt find me, if Allah so will, (truly) patient: nor shall I disobey thee in aught."
70. The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it."
71. So they both proceeded: until, when they were in the boat, he scuttled it. Said Moses: "Hast thou scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing hast thou done!"
72. He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
73. Moses said: "Rebuke me not for forgetting, nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case."
74. Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
75. He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
76. (Moses) said: "If ever I ask thee about anything after this, keep me not in thy company: then wouldst thou have received (full) excuse from my side."
77. Then they proceeded: until, when they came to the inhabitants of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down, but he set it up straight. (Moses) said: "If thou hadst wished, surely thou couldst have exacted some recompense for it!"
78. He answered: "This is the parting between me and thee: now will I tell thee the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience.
79. "As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.
80. "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
81. "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.
82. "As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the Town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled: their father had been a righteous man: So thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure - a mercy (and favour) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."

Every Friday when I read I have that feeling ,of how neat and great holy Qur'an style is .

2- The Holly Qur'an is considered to be the greatest miracle that Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him had from Allah ,in order to challenge Arab who, were talented in Literature basically Poetry , and when one of them heard Qurraan, he admitted that it is not either poetry nor something written by human beings. In fact Qur'an's high languge is very different from other forms .If you are Arab and had the chance to read Holy Qur'an you will notice that Qur'an can't be considered either prose though it has stories nor poetry though it has some rhyme scheme.

3- I love reading Holy Qur'an and I am mad about literature. ,and fter my study in literature I guess I could see some connection between the two . Though this does not mean Literature is Holy Qur'an and Qur'an is literature .

4- Above all , I had that feeling of suspicion to know the point of view of other even if they are Muslims or not.



I think Falling * moon it is not proper to say what you said in your last post.



Thanlks all for giving me the chance to hear from you . :banana: :santasmil

[falling*moon]

i know it was the Quran.. i think we should have it in the forum so everyone can read..! :thumbs_up

[falling*moon]

sorry Ranoo, i really need to watch my broken language..

though am not a muslim, i liked those lines very much.. i mean ..how could we have such knowledge and never use it .....!!



thanx

[Ranoo]

Ranoo I think Falling * moon it is not proper to say what you said in your last post.
Flling*moon I meant everything I said hear.Maybe I need to rephrase to make it clearer((You SHOULD know how to speak in a respectable way when talking about RELIGIOUS(HOLY) BOOKS.I didn't mean your language is broken ,what I meant is that your language is not that polite.))

This is what you said in your last post and this is what I meant by your last post


falling*moon how about if this book ,which we keep under our beds since 2 billion years, told us about facts discoverd by science just now??????

Keeping A RELIGIOUS BOOK(Qur'an ,Bible,Torah.....and the other books which I might not be familiar with) under the bed is NOt by any means a POSITIVE thing .


falling*moon though am not a muslim, i liked those lines very much.. i mean ..how could we have such knowledge and never use it .....!!
.
Believe me your religion does not really matter .What matters is the way you use when you talk about RELIGIONS and RELIGIOUS BOOKS . I sent that question to know the way others feel about their own religious books nothing more .Everybody is welcomed to state his opinion about others religious book (besides his/her own RELIGIOUS BOOK) if s /he really read THAT OTHER BOOK ,and he talks ABOUT IT objectively and respectfully .
[B]PLEASE OTHER DEAR :banana: FRIENDS CORRECT ME :D IF I'M MISTAKEN :cool:

[Outlander]

Please forgive the interuption, but Ranoo, Whatever shade of red or pink you are using to draw attention to some words, -in case you haven't noticed - isn't working.
Against the orange, they bleed together, Gets hard to read.

Okay, done now

Please continue.... :)

Outlander

[Ranoo]

Hi outlander ,
There you go!
Sorry if the red or pink colors are inconvenient for reading . You know maybe because I have a visual memory I depended a lot on colors, and I always think they help to differentiate things for others and make reading easier .

No body can blame me I'm an :cool: artist ( :D kidding :D ).I'll try to follow your advice outlander not to use red or pink colors ;) .

It's done now

I appreciate your passing by.

Thanks!

Yours ,
Rana

[Mililalil XXIV]

Well I am not sure as to how a Holy BOOK could not be literary... doesn't that imply that it is written, and possibly written well...why would a book be non literary, or more importantly why would a holy text be written poorly...

Most Holy Texts arew written well so as to convey the meaning to its audiance.

Literary does not mean fiction.

After all, Sacred Writings are in such a form as to typify a whole oral Tradition. They are a Legend of the whole. That demands special literary skill to produce in brief passages. And such passages often articulate brilliantly a line of Reason picked out of the whole Tradition, in the case of the Bible and related Texts.