The proles

[Teacher]

MW....One thing i am not sure of in 1984 is the proles, and how big brother treats them. it seems that big brother focuses most of its efforts on preventing a rebellion from the outer or inner party class. they just ignore the proles. it dosn't really make much sense to me because the proles are probably the biggest threat. they have the most people, they have pretty good motives(Big brother treats them with no respect, they are pretty much all poor, want to move up in life, etc.), all they need is a leader to unite them, to revolt vs. bbig brother. i think that they could cause damage to big brother, what do all of you think?

[wolverinewanaBE]

:lol: i agree with you but the proles dont revolt or anything because Big Brother keeps them drunk and uneducated so they will not think about a revoloution!

i hope this is what you were looking for! :banana: :banana:

[Eva Marina]

I agree with you, wolverinewanaBE. Big Brother is trying to oppress the prole society in such a way that they don't think of it as oppression but simply as a way of life. No one revolts because they don't think they have a need to. Big Brother and the government provides them with the establishments they want in their part of town (I assume it was their part of town, considering the lack of Party members populating the pubs and Winston's unease about his situation when he is initially there) so they have no need to go to the "Party" part of town. They are kept ignorant, as are most citizens that we know of or that we assume to be ignorant (it is difficult to imagine that there aren't many people aware of the fluctuations and falsehoods in the news), and are easier to keep oppressed.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

The proles won't revolt without a leader. Big brother therefore, concentrates 'his' efforts on nipping any potential leaders in the bud. The proles are fed lies and booze to keep them in a state of docile befuddlement.

In real life revolutions, it is the populace that does the actual revolting but the impetus is provided by intellectuals and thinkers; those with the eloquence and persuasiveness to convince the proles that things will be better after they replaced their current oppressors with new oppressors. This has been true of all revolutions that I can think of - I would be glad to hear of any counter-examples.

[gilthas]

The reason Big Brother doesn't bother to deal with the Proles is because they are of no threat to him. He knows that the proles are too uneducated, and too clueless to do anything. Goldstein says so in his book, saying that "The Proles have only ever rebelled against the present day government to establish a government of even more nightmarish proportions." Orwell is basing this on the Russian lower classes, who were fed nothing but garbage from the Pravda [Russian Newspaper], so that they were literally brainwashed.
I agree with all of you, but add that Big Brother knows he has manipulated them so much that they are completely hopeless.

[Zumba]

The reason Big Brother doesn't bother to deal with the Proles is because they are of no threat to him. He knows that the proles are too uneducated, and too clueless to do anything. Goldstein says so in his book, saying that "The Proles have only ever rebelled against the present day government to establish a government of even more nightmarish proportions." Orwell is basing this on the Russian lower classes, who were fed nothing but garbage from the Pravda [Russian Newspaper], so that they were literally brainwashed.
I agree with all of you, but add that Big Brother knows he has manipulated them so much that they are completely hopeless.

Another thing is the proles do not know they are being repressed or opressed in any way. As some one mentioned they are kept drunk and uneducated for that purpose. and even though they do have a large part of the population it still doesnt matter becasue if big brother is as big i believe it is in the book, it would have soem kind of contingency plan to deal with a prole uprising. :banana:

[gilthas]

Yeah, plues, they are the lowest class, the peons of society [sorry to coin the WCIII term]. Big Brother knows that they are too hopeless to do anything about it, and that they don't have enough mental, physical, or military power to overthrow him.

[1948-1984]

The proles basically are ignorant to the fact of Big Brother. If they are worried about pots and pans, then I guess they would rather have material posession rather than knowledge of current events. However, I would NOT rule a society where they are used to violence, and murder isn't an as highly punishable law as treason. Someone, besides Winston, is bound to revolt. And they will have sense enough to inspire revolution.

[Iluvicecream]

The proles are are uneducated and don't know the strength that lies within their own class. The Proles are the majority and their is obviously power in numbers but they don't realize the power that they have. Also the proles are kept busy by lots of alcohal and porn magazines which keeps them from questioning things. :nod:

[gilthas]

I think the fact is that the proles did have power, but because they have been manipulated, opressed, tortured, brainwashed, and in some cases, killed, by BB. As a result, Big Brother destroyed and crushed the only group that could give him any kind of resistance.

[Force Recon94]

I agree with you but i think big brother dosnt feel threatened that the proles will revolt because they are always drunk. Big brother tries to keep them dumb and stupid so they wont even think about a revbolt.

[gilthas]

exactly.

Keep the one thing you fear most off the populace's mind, and it won't happen.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I think this would be a good time to bring in Plato's theories on single and double ignorance. He states that single ignorance is not knowing something, but having the presence of mind to understand that and attempting to find out whatever it is that is not known. Double ignorance, what the proles have, is not knowing something and not realizing you don't know it. It is this sort of ignorance that affects the proles and causes them not only to have a lack of knowledge, but also to not do anything about it. More or less, Big Brother is dealing with intellectually deactivated people so he doesn't need to worry about them revolting.

[Teacher]

Phay...The proles will not revolt and will never revolt even though the make up almost 98% of Oceania.The reason is because they are uneducated and very ignorant.The proles are to worried about stupid problems of there own.Even though winston wants the proles to take over big brother it would probably never happened.

[WanderingPoet]

One thing that we seem to be neglecting here...is the fact that the proles are kept in survival mode. How can they revolt when they can barely survive, and why should they revolt when they can do nothing more than survive. They are weak, unorganized, and completely in the power of their respective world powers. America is not too far from becoming like the world of 1984. Bush has already begun to take away our essential liberties. That of course is what the patriot act is. It is an invasion of privacy...and another thing...who would argue would he to say that an individual whom he disagreed with on some points was a terrorist? No one because like the people of 1984, americans too live in a world of fear. Those who give up their essential liberties for temporary safety, deserve neither safety nor liberty. We are become the proles. Bush and his corporate buddies are obliterating the middle class. Year by year people are finding it more and more difficult to survive. It is in this way that dictatorships and a world like that of George Orwell's 'nightmarish' vision, are given unto fruition. The proles do not revolt because they are afraid and barely alive.

[The Kid 11]

Well first of your right the proles could do damage, but they are uneducated and have no leader. I don't think that they know any better as to what life could be . Plus without a leader the revolt would probably fall apart. An inner party or outer party member could lead the proles to a revolt I think, but the proles are un educAted so a revolt would be hard. :banana:

[Stanislaw]

Well first of your right the proles could do damage, but they are uneducated and have no leader. I don't think that they know any better as to what life could be . Plus without a leader the revolt would probably fall apart. An inner party or outer party member could lead the proles to a revolt I think, but the proles are un educAted so a revolt would be hard. :banana:

The proles are unaware of the inner workings of the party, and for the most part live life as they always have, and since big brother doesnt really enforce the same rules that are inforced amongst the party memebers the proles have no reason to react...It is for the same reason that today people do not react on mass to their government, for the most part, the government has no immediat impact on their day to day life.

[mangamagna]

i remeber when the 9/11 attack happened. When Bush went in there and made all those wonderfull speaches about fighting terrorism and all that bull, he was a BB to us all. He seemed to have all the answers, know all the suspects, and have all the solutions. he even made us believe that with the patriot act, we would be safer. At that time, i being an ignorant 13 yr old with middle school education thought "hey, whatever it takes to catch those terrorists". I hadnt even thought of them using that same act to be able to spy on me. The Proles were poor, couldnt afford higher education and their only source of info was the Party. They were drunk and lived on a day-to-day basis. they didnt have to worry about thoughtcrime and all that, nor telescreens. a revolt for them was not the first or most pressing thing on their minds since they wouldnt even concieve it. so i hope that helps answer the why they wouldnt revolt. because they were innocent-minded, brainwashed with propaganda, had very little education, awareness or "no comparison of lifestyle", and simply weren't motivated to that extent.

[gilthas]

No kidding.

Because your in government, the US political system states that you are untouchable iif you are the president. It's a flaw in the system, but the people don't have the ability to do anything about it.

PS: There's an election in Canada today. If the Tories win, George Dubya will be reallly pleased.

[vermillion]

the proles are too unconscious to ever realize that they can actually overpower Big Brother. As Winston states, "But if there was hope, it lay in the proles". But they are in too much of a stupor. They accept Big Brother's demands, statements, ideas, etc. It is true that many of them probably know that bad things are going on, it's likely that many of them are 'doublethinkers'. But they are too afraid, like Wandering Poet said. They don't come together because they are just too scared. I'm beginning to think that the wars aren't even real. They were made to scare the proles into never stirring trouble. They are taught to live in fear. o_o... freaky.

[WilfulSunbeam]

I think the proles simply do not understand that life can be better. They have been brainwashed into believing that life has never been different. And because they do not remember a time when they had a more worthwhile existence, they have no desire to pursue it.

[Stanislaw]

I think the proles simply do not understand that life can be better. They have been brainwashed into believing that life has never been different. And because they do not remember a time when they had a more worthwhile existence, they have no desire to pursue it.

The proles are very much a representation of the average citizen of the world...they may know something bad is going on, but they won't do anything about it...after all "what can one person do?" :mad:

[lilbabe]

I NEED HELP
i need to answer this question in a pargraph!
What would winstons job be called today?
he changes the truth into lies and information that is good for Big Brother..so what kind of job would that be today!? help me please! i dont know how to post this on my page??

[gilamonstrous]

...like the people of 1984, americans too live in a world of fear. Those who give up their essential liberties for temporary safety, deserve neither safety nor liberty.

The actual quote is closer to "A People who would sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither and will lose both." :brow:

There are so many passages in this book that are eloquently chilling about how the individual's innate need and inborn Will to find a day-to-day way to cope with functioning in the Society he is born into can be guided and formed by what that Society teaches should be taken for granted. If a Society, through the workings of it's "shaping of history" can instill a sense that agreement with authority should be taken for granted, Historical memory can be made as plastic as serves that Society's purpose of the moment. The "mythical Little man" is then officially a Prole... each and every one...who's Life's toil, once passed and totalled, amounts to a drop of oil lubricating the operation of the machine which that Society has grown to be. Once a point is reached, first with each individual then collectively with the "motive majority" of a People, where most any shmuck dressed in a white lab coat (or a suit with a red tie and an American flag lapel pin) or any floating head on a field of phosphorus (or disembodied voice of intolerance over a set of headphones), can tell you what to eat, drink, wear, buy, love and/or kill and you take it for granted, then you can be taken for granted to walk off whatever Social lemming-ledge your citizenship in Fascism-, Communism-, Fundamentalism-, Bohemianism-, or SteetSmart-land requires of you.
The Proles are not oppressed because they are kept drugged and drunk, they stay drunk because they have nothing on their minds to worry about that feels better than stupor. And that basic Skinner-esque Behaviorism (look it up! :D ) situation always and only gets acheived through a selective combination of nutrition and education. Their revolt is not inevitable, and is actually more than unlikely. Until the pain of fearing to change becomes greater than the ongoing pain of remaining in the status quo, the Pained will persevere and be guided by bizniz as usual. So too, with historical memory, as Victories become Holidays and failures fade and are forgotten.

[Chinaski]

An off the cuff thought: I think that point is that the proles lack class consciousness - the precursor to this, the intellectual van guard that is necessary for revolution, is an impossibility in '1984'.

[mir]

I NEED HELP
i need to answer this question in a pargraph!
What would winstons job be called today?
he changes the truth into lies and information that is good for Big Brother..so what kind of job would that be today!? help me please! i dont know how to post this on my page??

a lawyer? historian?

no, just kidding! : )

actually, it could be a historian . . . the winners write the history; or somebody that spreads propaganda, becasue that's making truth into lies. anyone in the public information sector brings their own opinion to stuff, and that's coloring the truth if not changing to completely. you're right, i think there's a name for it, but i don't remember it . . .

[uhehee]

quothing from the book.

'the problem is educational' in a sence it is true. all the revolution that took place in the last centrury was due to the augmentaion of the knwoledge of the citizen by the educations. they have learned better things, philosophy (indirectly from the text they read) and the way of life.

it is said that prole are same as the animal. though they are free, there is no need of, or responsible of the party to educate them nor proles are interested in them.

just in case party set up the system preventing those actions from the begginig.. there are thought police putting eyes on the outer party who is capable of thinking.

they keep proles happy with the lottery, over look proles with getting the outer party stuff such as gin. as the gov controls the informations and the media, there is nothing to compare with there lifestyle

[BUFFALO BILLS]

the proles could have the power to revolt big brother but they are uneducated and unaware of the whole situation. The proles are distracted by Big Brother in many ways throughout the book!! Therefore don't have a reason to revolt::alien::alien:

[jellolover07]

The proles want to believe in Big Brother. They willingly believe in the advancements that the party claims to have made not because they are stupid but because they don't want to have to worry about it. By revolting they would be vaporized, so it is safest to give in to the brainwashing and allow themselves to believe in the less painful lies. This is common human nature, and hard to even be consciously aware of. Sometimes we choose to ignore the truth because the truth is too difficult to deal with.

[Enjoi.]

The proles want to believe in Big Brother. They willingly believe in the advancements that the party claims to have made not because they are stupid but because they don't want to have to worry about it. By revolting they would be vaporized, so it is safest to give in to the brainwashing and allow themselves to believe in the less painful lies. This is common human nature, and hard to even be consciously aware of. Sometimes we choose to ignore the truth because the truth is too difficult to deal with.

Once again jello i disagree. I don't believe fear is the main factor in the Proles' loyalty. Ignorance and fear are what fuel this. Fear is the more obvious of the two and as i have said before "the textbook answer". Winston later in the book, after Julia suggests it, thinks that the bombings may in fact not be from Eurasia, but instead the Party itself. That and vaporizations are the element of fear. The ignorance is how Big Brother keep them distracted and occupied. Using the lotto for a distraction, Pornosec as a distraction, alcohol as a distraction, and so on. One very important part of the book is where Winston believes he is not a real person. He is almost created. The Proles are the real people and they act that way.

[jellolover07]

Once again jello i disagree. I don't believe fear is the main factor in the Proles' loyalty. Ignorance and fear are what fuel this. Fear is the more obvious of the two and as i have said before "the textbook answer". Winston later in the book, after Julia suggests it, thinks that the bombings may in fact not be from Eurasia, but instead the Party itself. That and vaporizations are the element of fear. The ignorance is how Big Brother keep them distracted and occupied. Using the lotto for a distraction, Pornosec as a distraction, alcohol as a distraction, and so on. One very important part of the book is where Winston believes he is not a real person. He is almost created. The Proles are the real people and they act that way.

The proles are ignorant because they fear the truth. "Ignorance is strength" the proles believe every word that the party says is true because going against big brother is too dangerous, especially since there are spies and the thought police.

[Enjoi.]

The proles are ignorant because they fear the truth. "Ignorance is strength" the proles believe every word that the party says is true because going against big brother is too dangerous, especially since there are spies and the thought police.

The Proles aren't the ones that are afraid of this. The inner and outer party are afraid of spies and thought police. The Proles don't worry about that because the Party doesn't keep tabs on the Proles. The Party does it's best to keep the Proles ignorant that way they don't have to regulate their language and thought. If they did regulate these things the Proles could become angry and the Party would not benefit from this. You have part of it right, going against Big Brother is too dangerous, but the Proles don't know this. If the Proles were involved it would not be too dangerous. A massive coup involving the Proles and the Inner and Outer Party would most certainly work, but the Proles can't do it because they are ignorant not afraid. They don't think anything is wrong. They aren't afraid, they may be afraid of the bombs, but not the thought police or spies.

[jellolover07]

The Proles aren't the ones that are afraid of this. The inner and outer party are afraid of spies and thought police. The Proles don't worry about that because the Party doesn't keep tabs on the Proles. The Party does it's best to keep the Proles ignorant that way they don't have to regulate their language and thought. If they did regulate these things the Proles could become angry and the Party would not benefit from this. You have part of it right, going against Big Brother is too dangerous, but the Proles don't know this. If the Proles were involved it would not be too dangerous. A massive coup involving the Proles and the Inner and Outer Party would most certainly work, but the Proles can't do it because they are ignorant not afraid. They don't think anything is wrong. They aren't afraid, they may be afraid of the bombs, but not the thought police or spies.

They choose to be ignorant because that is what is safest for them. Just like the party members choose to believe in the lies that they help write. The fear of the government changes everyone's reactions to things. The proles know about thought police and spies, and the fear of the bombs is included here too. They drink in every word the government says because that is the easiest and safest things to do. If it is the governemt bombing them, they don't want to be the next person blown up, so it's best to just silently go on with life and agree with Big Brother.

[The Atheist]

They choose to be ignorant because that is what is safest for them.

Nope.

Who could educate them? Removal of ignorance can only be done by education. When those who might teach are vaporised, there's no chance of an alternative being mooted.

[bazarov]

If it is the governemt bombing them, they don't want to be the next person blown up, so it's best to just silently go on with life and agree with Big Brother.

They are not aware that Party bombs them.
Official, what will you put next - 1984, Animal Farm and Burmese Days are already used:D

[The Atheist]

They are not aware that Party bombs them.
Official, what will you put next - 1984, Animal Farm and Burmese Days are already used:D

Coming up for Air. I'm sure nobody else has ever read it.

;)

[Enjoi.]

Nope.

Who could educate them? Removal of ignorance can only be done by education. When those who might teach are vaporized, there's no chance of an alternative being mooted.

Completely agree. The Party keeps the possible thinkers/educators out of existence and they keep the Proles distracted and ignorant.

[bazarov]

Coming up for Air. I'm sure nobody else has ever read it.

;)

Neither did I :p

[Foreigner038]

Neither did I

[Foreigner038]

sorry trying to still figure this out

[Foreigner038]

Phay...The proles will not revolt and will never revolt even though the make up almost 98% of Oceania.The reason is because they are uneducated and very ignorant.The proles are to worried about stupid problems of there own.Even though winston wants the proles to take over big brother it would probably never happened.

It probably will not happen, but Winston knows that there is still a hope in the proles section. the only problem is, is like what you said the proles are too worried about the stupid things to worry about the big things. That possibly can and will change their lives forever, and maybe even change everything back to the way everything was. you know back to the days where the "beer was better," I think the proles should try and sneek into learning areas and maybe if they're smart enough, just maybe they can enlighten the situation and take over Big Brother.

[laxer7]

It probably will not happen, but Winston knows that there is still a hope in the proles section. the only problem is, is like what you said the proles are too worried about the stupid things to worry about the big things. That possibly can and will change their lives forever, and maybe even change everything back to the way everything was. you know back to the days where the "beer was better," I think the proles should try and sneek into learning areas and maybe if they're smart enough, just maybe they can enlighten the situation and take over Big Brother.

The proles wouldn't though because they're too distracted by pornosec and the lottery. Most likely even if they chose to become educated the government would see them as a threat and have them vaporized.

[jellolover07]

The proles wouldn't though because they're too distracted by pornosec and the lottery. Most likely even if they chose to become educated the government would see them as a threat and have them vaporized.

I agree completely, this is what I was trying to say in my other posts. Becoming educated is too dangerous.

[Foreigner038]

True, but if the government does not know it won't hurt them. Meaning if the proles don't act like they are getting smart until they revolt then Big Brother might just think nothing has changed, and how would Big Brother know if they are getting smarter. The most contact he has with the proles is, pornosec, the lottery, and the bombs he drops on their village. The proles do not have telescreens they are unwatched. So my question is how would Big Brother know that they are getting smarter if he does not watch them at all? I do agree it could be very dangerous, but i think it is a risk they have to take for the sake of themselves and the sake of everyone else.

[bazarov]

It probably will not happen, but Winston knows that there is still a hope in the proles section. the only problem is, is like what you said the proles are too worried about the stupid things to worry about the big things. That possibly can and will change their lives forever, and maybe even change everything back to the way everything was. you know back to the days where the "beer was better," I think the proles should try and sneek into learning areas and maybe if they're smart enough, just maybe they can enlighten the situation and take over Big Brother.

Winston thinks that hope lies in Proles - of course, where else? We have two sections; Proles and The Party. I doubt Party would act against itself, so it must be Prole section. But they will never rebel, they don't realize what is happening, and they are too stupid to understand it.


The proles wouldn't though because they're too distracted by pornosec and the lottery. Most likely even if they chose to become educated the government would see them as a threat and have them vaporized.

They cannot choose to be educated or non educated; Party made that choice instead of them.

[bazarov]

True, but if the government does not know it won't hurt them. Meaning if the proles don't act like they are getting smart until they revolt then Big Brother might just think nothing has changed, and how would Big Brother know if they are getting smarter. The most contact he has with the proles is, pornosec, the lottery, and the bombs he drops on their village. The proles do not have telescreens they are unwatched. So my question is how would Big Brother know that they are getting smarter if he does not watch them at all? I do agree it could be very dangerous, but i think it is a risk they have to take for the sake of themselves and the sake of everyone else.

Who would make them smarter? There are no schools or universities, and if there were something like that; it is controlled by Party.
Every single Prole is stupid, so some private conspired school is also impossible. Also, none of Proles realizes what is happening, so who would said them in the first place what is Party doing? Forget someone like William Wallace, Martin Luther, Oliver Cromwell, Robin Hood, Guiseppe Garibaldi etc; it's impossible!

[Foreigner038]

Who would make them smarter? There are no schools or universities, and if there were something like that; it is controlled by Party.
Every single Prole is stupid, so some private conspired school is also impossible. Also, none of Proles realizes what is happening, so who would said them in the first place what is Party doing? Forget someone like William Wallace, Martin Luther, Oliver Cromwell, Robin Hood, Guiseppe Garibaldi etc; it's impossible!

Yeah it is going to be hard but think about it maybe O'Brien and Winston could teach them and make them smarter. Or Winston could find a person who learned a lot before the revolution that he can have teach some proles at a time and have those proles tell everyone else about there learnings. It is a simple step they need to do but it is going to be hard because they are vaporized if they get caught. There has got to be one person that knows something about something that could teach the proles and get them smart enough to figure out that they need to rebel.

[tbccvbtfhc]

The proles worry about little things like cooking pots because they aren't educated enough to worry about things like rebellion. There is nobody to teach the proles anything like the ideas of rebellion, and even if there were the proles probably wouldn't care. Big Brother provides them with the lottery and pornosec, that it all they know, and as far as they're concerned that is all they need.

[The Atheist]

The proles worry about little things like cooking pots because they aren't educated enough to worry about things like rebellion.

It's not entirely ignorance. As Russia showed during the Communist era, a lack of goods makes even small luxuries seem like major ones to the masses.

[Enjoi.]

Coming up for Air. I'm sure nobody else has ever read it.

;)

Have it reserved at my library. :D

[Enjoi.]

Yeah it is going to be hard but think about it maybe O'Brien and Winston could teach them and make them smarter. Or Winston could find a person who learned a lot before the revolution that he can have teach some proles at a time and have those proles tell everyone else about there learnings. It is a simple step they need to do but it is going to be hard because they are vaporized if they get caught. There has got to be one person that knows something about something that could teach the proles and get them smart enough to figure out that they need to rebel.

O'Brien=Thought police=would never teach them
Winston=brainwashed-loves BigBrother-Dead