Herzog (by Saul Bellow) - what are your thoughts?

[SleepyWitch]

Hiya everyone.
I've gotta give a presentation about Herzog by Saul Bellow...
nope, I'm not requesting help, I'm old enough to do my own homework :)
I was just wondering if anybody has read it and how you liked it...
I think it's alright, but kinda inscrutable, to say the least... i can't quite figure it out...
what did you like/dislike about it?
thanks a lot :)

[The Unnamable]

The main problem for many critics is the extent to which Bellow is uncritical of the central character. They don’t like his obsessive behaviour and apparent misogyny. Herzog is a ‘perpetual witness’ of all that he sees in the moronic inferno around him and ‘goes after reality with language’. I love the novel and consider it one of the best things I’ve read. Here are just a few of my favourite bits:


“You have to fight for your life. That’s the chief condition on which you hold it.”

“A ***** [female dog] in time breeds contempt.”

“Will never understand what women want. What do they want? They eat green salad and drink human blood.”

“Hearts quaking with cheap and feeble charity or oozing potato love have not written history.”

"Potato love - emotional plasma that can circulate in any system."

“She’s like a lot of bluestocking college girls – all her friends are homosexuals. She’s got more faggots at her feet than Joan of Arc.”

“Most people are unpoetical, and you consider this a betrayal.”

“He thought what a fine achievement he had made of his life that – ageing, vain, terribly narcissistic, suffering without proper dignity – he was taking comfort from someone who really didn’t have too much to spare him.”

“She was a clever woman and, even better, a dear woman. She had a good heart. And she had on black lace underpants. He knew she did.”

“Sentiment and brutality – never one without the other, like fossils and oil.”

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I think that the book is heavy going but worth the effort - It's easier to walk a flat road than to climb a mountain but ah, the view from the top! - I found the scene where Herzog abandons his quest for vengeance, after seeing the tenderness with which his adversary is bathing his child, especially touching.

It is full of rich quotes and an extemely insightful commentary on an intellectual coming to terms with the absurdities off the modern world and his own (mostly) failed life. I read it over 10 years ago, so my memory isn't that fresh, but I do remember that I started reading it twice before I finally got into it - after that though, I couldn't put it down.

[starrwriter]

“Will never understand what women want. What do they want? They eat green salad and drink human blood.”
This guy wins the Nobel Prize in Literature and I'm a sexist pig for going a fraction as far in characterizing women. There ain't no justice in this world!

[The Unnamable]

This guy wins the Nobel Prize in Literature and I'm a sexist pig for going a fraction as far in characterizing women. There ain't no justice in this world!
You should adopt my tactic of disguising it in the garb of other people’s profundity.

[starrwriter]

You should adopt my tactic of disguising it in the garb of other people’s profundity.
Very sneaky, Unnamable. I'll have to remember that to prevent the Inquisition at this forum from from locking me into the Iron Maiden torture machine.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Very sneaky, Unnamable. I'll have to remember that to prevent the Inquisition at this forum from from locking me into the Iron Maiden torture machine.

What!!! They make you listen to "The number of the beast" over and over - that is torture!

[baddad]

Is there some reason, deep seated or brimming full consciousness, a discussion of any myriad of topics drives some to feel a need (perhaps only a desire, which cheapens the act only that much more) to deride others about a perceived inadequacy of their gender?

It is unseemly, unenlightened, and I'm only guessing here, but unwelcome on most literature forums. Personally, I'm sick of reading about it here...........but hey, it is only my opinion........and if anyone here feels the need to discuss it, I welcome it, but fear the proper forum may only exist on an entirely different internet site..........because this new pending discussion certainly does not belong here either.........

I am easily reached via email as well.....................

[starrwriter]

Is there some reason, deep seated or brimming full consciousness, a discussion of any myriad of topics drives some to feel a need (perhaps only a desire, which cheapens the act only that much more) to deride others about a perceived inadequacy of their gender? It is unseemly, unenlightened, and I'm only guessing here, but unwelcome on most literature forums. Personally, I'm sick of reading about it here ...
Read the quotes about women from Saul Bellow. This thread is about his novel "Herzog." What doesn't belong here is your politically correct comments.

[The Unnamable]

Is there some reason, deep seated or brimming full consciousness, a discussion of any myriad of topics drives some to feel a need (perhaps only a desire, which cheapens the act only that much more) to deride others about a perceived inadequacy of their gender?

It is unseemly, unenlightened, and I'm only guessing here, but unwelcome on most literature forums. Personally, I'm sick of reading about it here...........but hey, it is only my opinion........and if anyone here feels the need to discuss it, I welcome it, but fear the proper forum may only exist on an entirely different internet site..........because this new pending discussion certainly does not belong here either.........

I am easily reached via email as well.....................

Sorry baddad but I have to agree with starrwriter here. I did point out that one of the problems some critics had with Bellow’s Herzog is its supposed misogyny and the quotations I supplied are certainly not uncharacteristic of the novel as a whole. I consider Bellow one of the finest writers I’ve ever read and Herzog would be one of the ten I’d take with me to a desert island were I permitted only ten. Would you say that he is not welcome on a Literature Forum? Or is he only welcome if we censor the bits that you personally find tiresome? I don’t believe that Bellow was a misogynist but I’m not going to be po-faced about observations that make me laugh out loud just because they might offend you. Perhaps you should consider complaining that Hamlet says "Frailty, thy name is woman."

[The Unnamable]

I found the scene where Herzog abandons his quest for vengeance, after seeing the tenderness with which his adversary is bathing his child, especially touching.

I found that part absolutely chilling. To see the man who has replaced you behave lovingly towards the child you are only allowed to see when your ex-wife and the courts permit must be almost too much to bear. Worse is that the child finds it natural. Horrible.

[Scheherazade]

Sorry baddad but I have to agree with starrwriter here. I think you should apologise to Starr as well! He is not used to people agreeing with him so the sudden shock of it might make his dear old heart have a sudden attack!

:p

[SleepyWitch]

This guy wins the Nobel Prize in Literature and I'm a sexist pig for going a fraction as far in characterizing women. There ain't no justice in this world!



You should adopt my tactic of disguising it in the garb of other people’s profundity.

well... there is a subtle difference between merely quoting Saul Bellow and this, isn't there? :mad:
thanks for your replies anyway :)

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I found that part absolutely chilling. To see the man who has replaced you behave lovingly towards the child you are only allowed to see when your ex-wife and the courts permit must be almost too much to bear. Worse is that the child finds it natural. Horrible.

It is the situation which you describe which drew him there with the gun in the first place. That and his deteriorating mental state leading him to believe that he was saving the child from abuse.

But admittedly, when I say touching, I mean emotional on many levels, including the one you mention above. I cried reading that scene and it is the one that sticks in my mind more than anything else from the book; Bellow's depiction of the scene is so poignant.

I have no children, so can't comment from personal experience on the pain of separation, but a close friend has been going through a similar situation for the last few years. Unfortunately, one of the hardest parts of it for him is precisely how easily children, especially young ones, do adapt to a new status quo. They are malleable creatures. Hence all the advertising targetted at kids - McDonalds = Clown = Good = Gimme, gimme, gimme!

[baddad]

Tis not Bellows or his literature or any other artfully written word that offends and wounds, but consistent subtle plays by members. But perhaps it is fitting to hide behind thin clouds of supposed and somewhat serendepitious misunderstanding, or the garb of profundity........for some......

.......baiting.............

[The Unnamable]

well... there is a subtle difference between merely quoting Saul Bellow and this, isn't there? :mad:
thanks for your replies anyway :)

I don’t know if you are serious, SleepyWitch but I hope you aren’t. Yes, there is a difference but the spirit of both the quotations you select above is pretty light-hearted. The humour of the novel itself is far, far harsher a lot of the time. I’ve bothered to post a reply here because, in the wider context, this kind of thing genuinely worries me. There is a disturbing trend towards intolerance of any form of political incorrectness. Today starrwriter and I have our wrists slapped, tomorrow Bellow has his books withdrawn from libraries.

[starrwriter]

...this kind of thing genuinely worries me. There is a disturbing trend towards intolerance of any form of political incorrectness. Today starrwriter and I have our wrists slapped, tomorrow Bellow has his books withdrawn from libraries.
Political correctness is the new fascism. First, you control what people are allowed to say without ridicule or reprimand. This paves the way for controlling what they can think and do later on. Every dictator in history practiced this strategy and it has absolutely no place in a democratic society where citizens have the right to free speech. The fact that PC has invaded the intellectual arena is even more insidious.

[starrwriter]

Tis not Bellows or his literature or any other artfully written word that offends and wounds, but consistent subtle plays by members. But perhaps it is fitting to hide behind thin clouds of supposed and somewhat serendepitious misunderstanding, or the garb of profundity........for some......
.......baiting.............
You're the one who is doing the baiting in this thread. If you want to discuss political correctness, why don't your start your own thread?

[SleepyWitch]

yeah, you do have a point there about PC, the Unnameable and starrwriter.... lots of times it's really overdone to an extent where you can't even think outside the limits PC sets on people's thoughts... e.g. with Herzog I find it extremely difficult to accept that Madeleine is this horrible *****, even though I know there are loads of *****y women in the world and she might just be one of them... i mean, I've even known women like her in real life... but we're brainwashed to think that saying a woman is a ***** is not politically correct... so even if a woman happens to be a *****, we try to blame it on the man... I'm not saying she's a natural born *****.. i mean, sure enough there were loads of factors that made her turn out that way, but there's no need to blame it all on Herzog...
(well, nevertheless, if he was stupid enough to get together with a *****, it's not her fault their marriage went wrong.. i mean, she was a ***** right from the start, so there was no need for him to marry her if he didn't have this compulsion to pick up *****es)
I don't think Bellow is a misogynist, though... I mean, maybe Herzog is, but just because a character in a novel expresses certain views, doesn't mean the author agrees with him... I think that's where loads of people go wrong... e.g. loads of people get all freaked out as soon as there's a bit of violence in a book or film, but they don't even bother to check whether the book supports violence or is critical of it... I think it's the same kind of phenomenon about PC....

[Xamonas Chegwe]

I quite agree SW, and with the others above - What a dull world it would be if all characters in books were PC & nice.

Imagine Portia siding with Shylock in court, so as not to appear anti-semitic.
Imagine Tom Sawyer with "Native-American Joe".
Imagine Carrie's school friends being supportive.

Books reflect life. To do their job properly, books need to reflect life accurately and to examine the parts of life that we prefer not to think about, giving us insights into why people behave as they do. Herzog does all of this. The character Herzog is not some sympathetic everyman but a complex individual with faults and prejudices, skilfully portrayed by a master of words. We can learn more about ourselves from this book than from a thousand, politically-correct potboilers with nice, satisfactory endings and two-dimensional characters that are in touch with their feminine sides.

I said above that Herzog wasn't an everyman but in a way that's not true. We can identify with him because there's a bit of him in all of us, like it or not. We are all complex characters. None of us holds the same views all of the time, they change with our moods and experiences, and none of us genuinely believes 100% of the time the things that they feel they ought to believe (although a lot of the PC brigade like to think they do!) There is a misogynist / misandrist streak in every one of us. We all get hurt by the opposite sex from time to time and, short of homosexuality or the monastic life (either of which would be too great a step for me), there is no avoiding it. And every time it happens, we find ourselves thinking, "(Insert gender of your choice in bold capitals)!! They're all evil!" But that doesn't stop us going through it all again, fickle masochists that we are.

What Bellow does in Herzog, is to exagerrate these natural feelings of gender conflict, creating in the process a far more interesting character than would otherwise have been presented. And, reading the book, we can all see Herzog's point, even if not entirely agreeing with it and so do identify with him (even though it often goes against our perceived nature). Most of us can only dream of phrasing things as eruditely and eloquently though!

Xamonas

PS. As I stated in an earlier post, I haven't read the book for over 10 years. This is too long. I really must dig it out of the bookcase.

[The Unnamable]

Xamonas Chegwe,
That’s the best post I’ve read since the last interesting one. An engaging combination of good sense and humour – well done.

We can learn more about ourselves from this book than from a thousand, politically-correct potboilers with nice, satisfactory endings and two-dimensional characters that are in touch with their feminine sides.
I agree wholeheartedly. If you want to see what awfulness results when a man is in touch with his feminine side, look no further than Coldplay’s Chris Martin. Horrible!

A few years ago some British sketch show (I forget which) featured a politically correct stand up comedian. His act consisted of lines like “There were these two gay men in an Irish pub….nothing wrong with that. They were just enjoying a chat. That’s good.”