a little french girl seeks help!!

[Solenne]

hello, i'm french so please excuse my english which is not quite good..!
i have to do a comparaison between two poems (sonnet): one of Shakespeare (called 71) and another from Wordworth, an english poet i don't know(the poem which isn't entitled begins by "why should we weep or mourn, Angelic boy"....please could you help me to find links between these two poems (litterally speaking) and comments I can made on them? thank you very much!
Solenne

[Logos]

Hello Solenne :)

Because your topic involves poetry, and more than just Shakespeare, I will move it to the "Poems, Poets, and Poetry" section where I think it will get more attention for you.

[Virgil]

Here are both poems. They were short enough to post. I think you'll get more comments if everyone has them in front of them. I'll add some comments on following posts.

SONNET 71 (Shakespeare)
No longer mourn for me when I am dead
Then you shall hear the surly sullen bell
Give warning to the world that I am fled
From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell:
Nay, if you read this line, remember not
The hand that writ it; for I love you so
That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot
If thinking on me then should make you woe.
O, if, I say, you look upon this verse
When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
Do not so much as my poor name rehearse.
But let your love even with my life decay,
Lest the wise world should look into your moan
And mock you with me after I am gone.


SONNET (Wordsworth)
WHY should we weep or mourn, Angelic boy,
For such thou wert ere from our sight removed,
Holy, and ever dutiful--beloved
From day to day with never-ceasing joy,
And hopes as dear as could the heart employ
In aught to earth pertaining? Death has proved
His might, nor less his mercy, as behoved--
Death conscious that he only could destroy
The bodily frame. That beauty is laid low
To moulder in a far-off field of Rome; 10
But Heaven is now, blest Child, thy Spirit's home:
When such divine communion, which we know,
Is felt, thy Roman-burial place will be
Surely a sweet remembrancer of Thee.

[Virgil]

Despite the same form, these are quite different poems. The only similarities I see is that they are both sonnets (14 lines of a particular rhyme scheme) and both address the death of a young male. The differences are great and I'll just list what I see:

1. Different sonnet form. Shakespeare's a Shakespearan sonnet (rhyme scheme ABABCDCDEFEFGG) while Wordsworth is an Italian sonnet (ABCABCDEFDEFGG).

2. Shakespeare is from a 1st person point of view, while Wordworth, addressing the dead boy, is 2nd person.

3. Shakespeare is imagining his own death, which drives the conceit of the poem, while Wordsworth is addressing an actual dead boy.

4. Shakespeare is in essence a love poem, "for I love you so/ that I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot/ if thinking on me then should make you woe." Wordsworth is an elegy, the mourning of a dead person.

These are the salient points. Solenne, from here you need to analyze the differences in imagery, diction, and theme. Important words to note: Angelic, Holy, Spirit, blest Child, Heaven for Wordworth. Vile (repeated twice), surly sullen bell, moan, mock, decay for Shakespeare.

Hope this helps. Let us know how you do.

[Schokokeks]

I agree to all the differences already posted by Virgil. Additionally I think it would be worth mentioning the starting lines of the two poems, as they both have for topic the mourning of the dead, Shakespeare's being a recommandation/a wish (No longer mourn me), the other rather being a rhetorical question (Why should we weep).
Moreover, I'd say that Shakespeare put a greater emphasis on the living (as it addresses another living person), whereas Wordsworth rather reflects on the situation of the now dead (bodily frame destroyed, but now in divine communion).

Hope this helped, bonne chance with your paper! ;)

[Solenne]

i just want to thank everybody for all the comments you let to help me...if you find others things about these 2 poems you can still let comments...thank you!! :nod:
the french little girl!!

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Vous vraiment devriez effectuer un travail pour vous-même. Le dépassement sur les avis des autres n'est pas la connaissance.

[RobinHood3000]

Show-off! :p

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Bâtons et pierres...

[RobinHood3000]

...rompa tu cuerpo.

As for the sonnets, I think everyone above has it pretty much covered, and the difference in tone (which is pretty much the only I can think of that I could contribute) seems pretty clear.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

....aber Wörter verletzen mich nie!

[Themis]

Of course she should do it on her own but as long as someone's willing to help her - why not? Shakespeare's works aren't that easy either.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

You assume that she is actually the "Little French Girl" that she claims? A dangerous assumption on the net.

There is an unofficial word that fits - a "Cribvirgin" is someone whose first ever post on a forum is an attempt to get someone else to write their essay / dissertation / course work for them. I think this is unfair on those that actually listen in class, do the work asked of them and give their own opinion. If you can't do all of that, you shouldn't be studying the course in the first place; all you are doing is devaluing the course and rendering genuine effort worthless.

This is a recent addition to the panoply of cheating methods and shouldn't really be tolerated in a serious forum. Or anywhere. By all means, drop a few hints and then politely suggest that the person do at least a modicum of research for themselves (for those that don't know how to use the google translation feature, this is all that I did - and in the poster's 'native tongue').

Solenne, if you are genuinely small, French and a girl, I apologise for casting doubt on your good name. Mais c'est l'Internet, n'est-ce pas?

[Themis]

You assume that she is actually the "Little French Girl" that she claims? A dangerous assumption on the net.


I always assume the best. Maybe she isn't who or "what"she claims to be, but I'll give her the benefit of doubt.
Though I agree with you regarding the "cheating", still, if someone is willing to present her with everything, leave them be.


(for those that don't know how to use the google translation feature, this is all that I did - and in the poster's 'native tongue'

Except for the part you wrote in German. ;)

[Solenne]

I can understand what was written on this forum and i also understand what Xamonas Chegwe said about me...i'm sure i could have done the commentary of these 2 poems alone but as i am french( because i really am) i couldn't understand the "old English" Skakespeare and Woodworth used...I study litterature so you can be sure i'm able to do a commentary on texts ....but i think the barrier of the language exists and it's impossible for me to know everything about some referencies to other work for example, humour...and that's why i asked help on this forum...I don't really know how to express myself, my ideas so i hope you will understand...
how to prove that i am french...?I thought my english would have proved it ...(thank you Themis to "give me the benefit of doubt"...you're right!)...next time i will write a message in French....
Finally, i think we are more and more living in an individualist world...helping the others is not a crime...the aims of this work(i should have precised it at the begining) is not the information we give but our way to defend the informations and the quality of our english language!
The French little girl (who in fact is not so little!but who is really a french girl)

[Mark F.]

Both Shakespeare and Wordsworth were a great influence upon Keats. Not sure how much that helps but there are many common themes (here : surviving death through poetry and communication, poetry is one of Wordsworth's main themes; EG Tintern Abbey (check out link) my favorite poem by Wordsworth http://www.online-literature.com/wordsworth/518/).

Your English is good by the way. Do you study English at UNI? I had an English Lit lesson this semestre on Wordsworth. I like his work but not as much as Keats and Blake (IMO best romantic English poet).

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Solenne, je suis heureux avoir une personne qui parle francaise! C'est tres cool! Je suis desole si mon francais ne saura pas parfait. Je suis un etudiant du francais et j'ai besoin d'aide de temps en temps. S'il vous plait, restez dans ce forum! Boin soir, mademoiselle!

Monsieur DarkClarity

P.S. Si vous etes une personne francaise, vous pourrez me comprendre.