The end of Faith

[queen Boudicca]

To believe or not to believe, have you read The end of Faith by Sam Harris?

opinions?

Boudicca

To those searching for truth -- not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. ~ Thomas Edison

[bhekti]

..........
To those searching for truth -- not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. ~ Thomas Edison


But, I dont see any fact to allow me to have faith in what Edison said.

[falling*moon]

am losing faith in stupid things which does NOT make any sense to me...

like those who believe in 3 Gods...and 2 ... who is ironically one man..!!!

but am looking for a new faith , the true thing.... that's why am reading lots of books now about religion..



this is what i think...

see ya

[Theshizznigg]

Ahh Boudica, what a lovely name, seldom heard in this age of Britneys, and such.
Its a good strong name.

[James Wallace]

I know this forum is not designed for preaching or converting people and I think I am not violating the forum rules by this post, but I find no better answer for Falling Moon's quest than to embrace Islam. Islam is the religion in which you believe in God, the One and Only, Almighty and Everlasting, no Father, no Son, no Mother, no Trinity. This is the absolute monotheism that perfectly copes with one's reason and finishes off the dilemma of Reason vs. Faith. You can find more on these websites:
www.islamonline.net/English/index.shtm
www.islamreligion.com
www.al-islam.com/eng

[safa]

Suggest a site for those who are searching for, www.islamqa.com
this has helped me a lot to heal the wounds of mind...

[Kurtz]

I know this forum is not designed for preaching or converting people and I think I am not violating the forum rules by this post, but I find no better answer for Falling Moon's quest than to embrace Islam. Islam is the religion in which you believe in God, the One and Only, Almighty and Everlasting, no Father, no Son, no Mother, no Trinity. This is the absolute monotheism that perfectly copes with one's reason and finishes off the dilemma of Reason vs. Faith. You can find more on these websites:
www.islamonline.net/English/index.shtm
www.islamreligion.com
www.al-islam.com/eng

You could not be more wrong! That is an extreme claim you make in the closing of your response. Do you care to show me the way in which believing in islam closes the dilemma between faith and reason? If so how come the islamic religion has been locked in turmoil since the beginning. I would argue that islam is the antithesis of reason and morality. Talk about a bunch of immoral fundamentalist who jeopardize life for the selfish motives of a skewed vision and morality. Take your conversion tactics elsewhere. Also, remember that the burden of proof is upon the person making the claim. Bring your evidence that concludes the question of reason and morality and I will look it over. Until then please refrain from making biased statements based on pure myth.

[Shield&Sword]

Kurtz, you also made statments about islam, where is your proof.

[Kurtz]

Kurtz, you also made statments about islam, where is your proof.

Look at the world around you my friend. You will surely see the inadequacies of all types of religion. Also, you must not have read my post: the burden of proof is on the bringer of the idea. I have no obligation to show proof for an idea and mindset that I do not hold. Just read the news and you will surely see that religious ideas have no place in the world we live in. The only place they serve is to hold back advancement in culture and society. Get off of your high horse and come to terms with the fact that the world was not brought about with your moral well being in mind. I know it is a nice fantasy, but you must admit, it is a bucket full of holes, for every argument you give me, I can refute it with evidence and I dare you to try me.

[James Wallace]

Kurtz, you should understand that religion is not judged b the acts of his followers, you cannot condemn Muhammad (Peace and blessing be upon him) for what Bin Laden did. This is no conversion or preaching, it is just the truth, check out the those sites and then decide.
I really care to show you the way in which believing in islam closes the dilemma between faith and reason. When you believe in one God with no son crucified or mother delivered Him, when you believe that God ordered us to be kind to all humanity as in “God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.” (Quran 60:8), there is no contradiction between religion and reason and terrorism and violence cannot be attributed to Islam itself.
The burden of proof is upon you in your phrase "Islam is the antithesis of reason and morality". The bunch of fundamentalists you talked about has no relations with the real spirit of Islam.
Remember, if an atheist like you commits a homicide crime, that never means you are convicted.
And now, to fulfill your request, what do you think about this:
{Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.} this is one of Prophet Muhammad's Hadiths 'sayings'.
The use of fire in any punishment is prohibited in Shari'a 'Islamic Law'.
{The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.} Hadith.
Someone asked Prophet Muhammad “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?” He said: {There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.}.
“There are seven categories of people whom God will shelter under His shade on the Day when there will be no shade except His. [One is] the just leader.” Hadith.
Prophet Muhammad said that God said “O My servants, I have forbidden injustice for Myself and forbade it also for you. So avoid being unjust to one another.”
“O you who believe, be upright for God, and (be) bearers of witness with justice!” (Quran 5:8)
“We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Measure in order to establish justice among the people.” (Quran 57:25)
And approach not the property of the orphan except in the fairest way, until he [or she] attains the age of full strength, and give measurement and weight with justice.” (Quran 6:152, also see 89:17, 93:9, and 107:2)
Charity is not just recommended by Islam, it is required of every financially stable Muslim. Giving charity to those who deserve it is part of Muslim character and one of the Five Pillars of Islamic practice.
Now, I can clearly tell you and all the guys thinking the same way to think it out again and consider it neutrally, not affected by any favoritism, fanaticism or premature opinion. All the aforementioned here in bold is authentic.
Are not these really noble, sublime, humane, compassionate and rational principles that this world lacking it now truly needs?
Reason tells you, "They are".

[Kurtz]

The problem with citing holy text is that for every positive you give me I can find a negative contradictory statement. What do you think of the following:

Take not jews and christians for friends. ..... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. (5:51)

Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. (9:5)

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. (9:29)

The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. (4:101)

Live peacefully with disbelievers. (43:88-89) This looks a lot like a contradiction to me!

The earth is fixed and does not move. (27:61)

Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. (4:15)

Those who "did wrong" will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). (37:22-23)

Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation. (64:14-15)

Men and women should help each other with love an mercy. (30:21)

Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. (2:174)

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) (2:191-2)

Disbelievers do not harm Allah, but will have a painful doom. (3:177)

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. (4:74)

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers. (5:45)


All the aforementioned here in bold is authentic.

Wow man, that is some peaceful religion you practice. It was surely written by a vast amount of people who have no idea how to make rational and reasonable arguments. All I see in the quran and bible is lots of appeal to fear and ignorant contradictions (I have read both entirely). The above is just a miniscule amount of the contradictions and atrocities written in that smut. I just hope people come to terms with reason before people who believe in such ignorance have more time to destroy what humanity has worked towards. You can point out all of the “good” things the quran says, but it is all for naught, for a text is bound by both sides and to present the good without the bad is ignorant and shows the way in which religious people pick and choose scripture to suit their argument. The ignorance present is blinding and I only hope that people recognize how islam (and all religions) are the antithesis of reason and morality.

[holograph]

I agree with Kurtz. However, it should be mentioned that

a. Islam is a fairly new religion and is undergoing its time of turmoil just like christianity (crusades/inquisition,etc)

b. all religions have ideas that are similar. the torah and the bible both have some violent and anti-heretical ideas mentioned though i do not have any quotes at this time to prove it

c. islam, unlike the previously mentioned religions, was founded on violence. any religion can be practiced peacefully, including islam, but it must be understood tht muhammad created islam in order to coercively unite the people of north africa/the middle east, who were scattered in various tribes that fought amongst themselves. christianity and judaism WERE NOT founded on violence, however. that is one major differene between the three.


but in reference to what james and others have said, yes, it is very easy to screw up a religion and to screw with the midns of poor, ignorant people. that is precisely what is going on in todays world. in the middle east, and even in europe/the u.s. ah, politics.

[Scheherazade]

This section of the Forum is dedicated for discussion of religious issues and posts which aim to convert or prove the superiority/inferioty of one particular religion will not be tolerated.

I would like to urge everyone to read the Religious Texts Forum Rules (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410) before carrying on posting in this section.

This thread now will be closed.