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The Unnamable
12-21-2005, 05:10 PM
I used to have this is some book but can’t find it, so here’s a copy from various web pages:



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/stonemewhatalife/milgram2.gif

A lesson in depravity, peer pressure, and the power of authority

The aftermath of the Holocaust and the events leading up to World War II, the world was stunned with the happenings in Nazi German and their acquired surrounding territories that came out during the Eichmann Trials. Eichmann, a high ranking official of the Nazi Party, was on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The question is, "Could it be that Eichmann, and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"

Stanley Milgram answered the call to this problem by performing a series of studies on the Obedience to Authority. Milgram's work began at Harvard where he was working towards his Ph.D. The experiments on which his initial research was based were done at Yale from 1961-1962.

In response to a newspaper ad offering $4.50 for one hour's work, an individual turns up to take part in a Psychology experiment investigating memory and learning. He is introduced to a stern looking experimenter in a white coat and a rather pleasant and friendly co-subject. The experimenter explains that the experiment will look into the role of punishment in learning, and that one will be the "teacher" and one will be the "learner." Lots are drawn to determine roles, and it is decided that the individual who answered the ad will become the "teacher."

Your co-subject is taken to a room where he is strapped in a chair to prevent movement and an electrode is placed on his arm. Next, the "teacher" is taken to an adjoining room which contains a generator. The "teacher" is instructed to read a list of two word pairs and ask the "learner" to read them back. If the "learner" gets the answer correct, then they move on to the next word. If the answer is incorrect, the "teacher" is supposed to shock the "learner" starting at 15 volts. In reality, the only electric shocks delivered in the experiment were single 45-volt shock samples given to each teacher. This was done to give teachers a feeling for the jolts they thought they would be discharging.

Shock levels were labeled from 15 to 450 volts. Besides the numerical scale, verbal anchors added to the frightful appearance of the instrument. Beginning from the lower end, jolt levels were labeled: "slight shock," "moderate shock," "strong shock," "very strong shock," "intense shock," and "extreme intensity shock." The next two anchors were "Danger: Severe Shock," and, past that, a simple but ghastly "XXX." The "teacher" automatically is supposed to increase the shock each time the "learner" misses a word in the list. Although the "teacher" thought that he/she was administering shocks to the "learner", the "learner" is actually a student or an actor who is never actually harmed. (The drawing of lots was rigged, so that the actor would always end up as the "learner.")

In response to the supposed jolts, the "learner" (actor) would begin to grunt at 75 volts; complain at 120 volts; ask to be released at 150 volts; plead with increasing vigor, next; and let out agonized screams at 285 volts. Eventually, in desperation, the learner was to yell loudly and complain of heart pain.

At some point the actor would refuse to answer any more questions. Finally, at 330 volts the actor would be totally silent-that is, if any of the teacher participants got so far without rebelling first.

Teachers were instructed to treat silence as an incorrect answer and apply the next shock level to the student.

If at any point the innocent teacher hesitated to inflict the shocks, the experimenter would pressure him to proceed. Such demands would take the form of increasingly severe statements, such as "The experiment requires that you continue."

At times, the worried "teachers" questioned the experimenter, asking who was responsible for any harmful effects resulting from shocking the learner at such a high level. Upon receiving the answer that the experimenter assumed full responsibility, teachers seemed to accept the response and continue shocking, even though some were obviously extremely uncomfortable in doing so.
What do you think was the average voltage given by teachers before they refused to administer further shocks? What percentage of teachers, if any, do you think went up to the maximum voltage of 450?

Today the field of psychology would deem this study highly unethical but it revealed some extremely important findings. The theory that only the most severe monsters on the sadistic fringe of society would submit to such cruelty is disclaimed. Findings show that, "two-thirds of this studies participants fall into the category of ‘obedient' subjects, and that they represent ordinary people drawn from the working, managerial, and professional classes (Obedience to Authority)." Ultimately 65% of all of the "teachers" punished the "learners" to the maximum 450 volts. No subject stopped before reaching 300 volts!

Milgram also conducted several follow-up experiments to determine what might change the likelihood of maximum shock delivery. In one condition, the touch-proximity condition, the teacher was required to hold the hand of the learner on a "shock plate" in order to give him shocks above 150 volts.
The most amazing thing to note from this follow-up experiment is that 32% of the subjects in the proximity-touch condition held the hand of the learner on the shock plate while administering shocks in excess of 400 volts! Further experiments showed that teachers were less obedient when the experimenter communicated with them via the telephone versus in person, and males were just as likely to be obedient as females, although females tended to be more nervous.

Milgram's obedience experiment was replicated by other researchers. The experiments spanned a 25-year period from 1961 to 1985 and have been repeated in Australia, South Africa and in several European countries. In one study conducted in Germany, over 85% of the subjects administered a lethal electric shock to the learner.

Results from the experiment.
Some teachers refused to continue with the shocks early on, despite urging from the experimenter. This is the type of response Milgram expected as the norm. But Milgram was shocked to find those who questioned authority were in the minority. Sixty-five percent (65%) of the teachers were willing to progress to the maximum voltage level.

Participants demonstrated a range of negative emotions about continuing. Some pleaded with the learner, asking the actor to answer questions carefully. Others started to laugh nervously and act strangely in diverse ways. Some subjects appeared cold, hopeless, sombre, or arrogant. Some thought they had killed the learner. Nevertheless, participants continued to obey, discharging the full shock to learners. One man who wanted to abandon the experiment was told the experiment must continue. Instead of challenging the decision of the experimenter, he proceeded, repeating to himself, "It’s got to go on, it’s got to go on."

Milgram’s experiment included a number of variations. In one, the learner was not only visible but teachers were asked to force the learner’s hand to the shock plate so they could deliver the punishment. Less obedience was extracted from subjects in this case. In another variation, teachers were instructed to apply whatever voltage they desired to incorrect answers. Teachers averaged 83 volts, and only 2.5 percent of participants used the full 450 volts available. This shows most participants were good, average people, not evil individuals. They obeyed only under coercion.

In general, more submission was elicited from "teachers" when (1) the authority figure was in close proximity; (2) teachers felt they could pass on responsibility to others; and (3) experiments took place under the auspices of a respected organization.

Participants were debriefed after the experiment and showed much relief at finding they had not harmed the student. One cried from emotion when he saw the student alive, and explained that he thought he had killed him. But what was different about those who obeyed and those who rebelled? Milgram divided participants into three categories:

Obeyed but justified themselves. Some obedient participants gave up responsibility for their actions, blaming the experimenter. If anything had happened to the learner, they reasoned, it would have been the experimenter’s fault. Others had transferred the blame to the learner: "He was so stupid and stubborn he deserved to be shocked."

Obeyed but blamed themselves. Others felt badly about what they had done and were quite harsh on themselves. Members of this group would, perhaps, be more likely to challenge authority if confronted with a similar situation in the future.

Rebelled. Finally, rebellious subjects questioned the authority of the experimenter and argued there was a greater ethical imperative calling for the protection of the learner over the needs of the experimenter. Some of these individuals felt they were accountable to a higher authority.

Why were those who challenged authority in the minority? So entrenched is obedience it may void personal codes of conduct.

Nightshade
12-22-2005, 08:48 AM
Whats the point of this thread please? and the dates are wrong its Milgrams study of obediance 1956. One of the most useful andunethical studies in social phsychology.
And fantasticly addaptable for a whole range of exam questions:lol:;)
actually one woman who was a holcost survior refuse to hock the learner even once.

Virgil
12-22-2005, 10:22 AM
Why were those who challenged authority in the minority? So entrenched is obedience it may void personal codes of conduct.

I've never heard of this. But it's pretty interesting. A question, which I may not have picked up in my quick read, were the participants aware that they were particiapating in an experiment? I would believe so, and so one can attribute part of the high percentage to the participant's faith in the experimenter to not create a dangerous situation. Nonetheless that probably would not explain it all. While the percentages noted may not reflect the percentages of what would occur if the situation were real, it does suggest something about human nature.

I think Nightshade also has a point, which I take as the following: Does the experiment itself, without the complexity of other human interaction, create an artificial situation? Are the results an artifact of the controled experiment?

In my opinion, the experiment does say something about human nature and the ability of people to act on established values. Established values must be continually preached. That's why the need for religious leaders. The results themselves don't say that "sheepishness" of people is universal, but it does say something.

Despite our little verbal row in another thread, I'm glad you're still around, Unnamable. I find your points interesting.

Nightshade
12-22-2005, 11:09 AM
Actually they werent aware they were involved in an obediance experiment and follow ups ( opening skinners box cant rember who by) showed that almost all of the participants were glad in later years that they had particpated as it changed there view of the world and authority.
Still dont get the point of Milgram to literature :coonfused:

The Unnamable
12-22-2005, 11:25 AM
Nightshade, what is the point of any thread for that matter? However, I posted it because I thought some people would find it as fascinating as I do.

Virgil, thank you very much indeed. I also found the topic interesting, which I why I posted it. And I am not being arrogant or sarcastic– before I get more criticisms and abuse to which I am not allowed to respond. It’s not my commentary above – as I said at the start of the post. So I’m sorry if the dates are wrong, Nightshade – I cobbled together the information from a number of sites.

The people on whom the experiment was carried out were told that they would be part of an experiment but that the experiment was about the role of punishment in learning. Obviously the ‘learners’ in the experiment were not really harmed but the volunteers didn’t know that. Remarkably, some thought they had actually killed them!

I remember reading about the experiment many years ago when I was teaching both ‘Animal Farm’ and ‘Lord of the Flies’. I immediately covered it in my classes as I thought its findings are relevant to both books. I also think that it’s relevant here on the forum, especially the part you quoted.

It gets us to think about our relationship with a nameless authority that assumes dominium over us. I suppose the logical extension of the Milgram Experiment is the SHOAH.

I fear blind obedience, firmly placing myself on the side of Piggy from Lord of the Flies. With the possible exception of Simon, Piggy is the only one that can see where acceptance of irrationality and brute authority leads us. Jack is able to become powerful because he can exploit the other boys’ irrational fears. He rises to power because people like to be told what to think and do. It’s not as if the example is merely theoretical – the Nazis were able to exterminate people en masse. Piggy seems to represent common sense and wisdom, and Simon the kind of spiritual goodness associated with Christ. However, both are brutally murdered, symbolising their rejection by a society that has degenerated into barbarity. The nature of Piggy’s death is obviously significant. His brains are literally squashed and the final chance for the capacity for human intellect to conquer chaos is also destroyed.

Virgil, I’m glad you were both interested and grown up enough to ignore any comments I might have spit at you in another thread. At the risk of (once again) sounding patronising, I will say that you have gone up hugely in my estimation. I don’t want to be melodramatic but it was probably not that easy for you to say what you did and a measure of your maturity and genuine curiosity that you decided to nevertheless. I respect you for that. Perhaps it’s the teacher in me but I enjoy seeing a text become more important than personal likes or dislikes. It’s a true indication that you are actually prepared to see and question what’s around you.

I fear, however, that I am not long for this world. I’ve identified myself as Piggy (I am a tiny bit overweight and I do wear glasses) to the powers that be and I don’t think they like the fact that I know more about Literature than them.

“And in the middle of them, with filthy body, matted hair, and unwiped nose, Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man’s heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy.”


Nightshade, I hope this gives you some idea of why I think Milgram is relevant to Literature.

Virgil
12-22-2005, 12:04 PM
I remember reading about the experiment many years ago when I was teaching both ‘Animal Farm’ and ‘Lord of the Flies’. I immediately covered it in my classes as I thought its findings are relevant to both books. I also think that it’s relevant here on the forum, especially the part you quoted.

It gets us to think about our relationship with a nameless authority that assumes dominium over us. I suppose the logical extension of the Milgram Experiment is the SHOAH.

I fear, however, that I am not long for this world. I’ve identified myself as Piggy (I am a tiny bit overweight and I do wear glasses) to the powers that be and I don’t think they like the fact that I know more about Literature than them.


Unamable, thank you for your kind comments.

I once shared the same perspective presented in Lord of the Flies, "The Waste Land", "Waiting for Godot", and other works of the 20th century. My area of concentration was on the modern English novel. (See my profile.) I went through a similar spiritual/emotional crises that you seemed to have expressed above, quoted. You are not doomed to it; I broke free of it. D.H. Lawrence somewhere, I can't recall exactly, has an image of horse going around in a circle whose motion drives a pump of somekind. It's analogous for the average person's life. It is akin to Hindu wheel of life. Lawrence sets up in The Rainbow many wheels of life, but he does have Ursula break free from those wheels. I came to the conclusion that most of the modern writers who are absorbed in the, shall I call it, "the wasteland" view life have not captured the totality of humanity. Look, they are great works and the 20th century, especially the first half, was a hell of a time, but it was not only place and time and it does not reflect everything about humanity. Homer, and Virgil, and Dante, and Shakespeare, I think, all balance the negative and affirmative principlles of life. I won't say that this was the only reason I came out of that personal crises, but it did begin the first steps. I hope my experience helps you.

Ultimately, while hardly perfect, humanity is better than the Milgram experiment.

Also, I'm not a Beckett expert, but I think I read somewhere that in his last phase he too broke free of that negativity. Is that true?

RobinHood3000
12-22-2005, 12:57 PM
Incredibly enough, I agree. The results make one wonder, don't they? I can only assume that the results of the experiment would be different if the teacher and learner were personally connected, but it is intriguing how people can rationalize away actions that they know are suspect. I can also see the parallels between The Lord of the Flies and the experiment itself, though when I read it, I was left wondering that perhaps, had conflict within the ranks not developed and had Piggy and Simon remained alive, the boys on the island might have become self-sufficient. Of course, such was not to be...

RobinHood3000
12-22-2005, 01:02 PM
Oh, and if you'd like to respond, Unnamable, feel free to PM me (and I don't mean that sarcastically). I may not like what you say, but I think you're at least entitled to a defense of yourself.

The Unnamable
12-22-2005, 01:57 PM
Virgil,
Now I thank you. However, I don’t see Beckett’s work as negative, simply honest. I also find it very funny. The best production of a play I have ever seen was the Dublin Gate’s ‘Waiting For Godot’ at the Barbican in London a few years ago. It was both intensely moving and hilarious. Nor am I in some kind of trough of depression, unable to break out. Much as I love Beckett, I prefer Shakespeare and, on some days, Jane Austen. If only one book remained, I would choose ‘Hamlet’. However, we obviously get very different things from books. What I like about Beckett is what Harold Pinter has most eloquently expressed:

“The farther he goes the more good it does me. I don’t want philosophies, tracts, dogmas, creeds, ways out, truths, answers, nothing from the bargain basement. He is the most courageous, remorseless writer going and the more he grinds my nose in the **** the more I am grateful to him. He’s not ****ing me about, he’s not leading me up any garden path, he’s not slipping me a wink, he’s not flogging me a remedy or a path or a revelation or a basinful of breadcrumbs, he’s not selling me anything I don’t want to buy — he doesn’t give a bollock whether I buy or not — he hasn’t got his hand over his heart. Well, I’ll buy his goods, hook, line and sinker, because he leaves no stone unturned and no maggot lonely. He brings forth a body of beauty. His work is beautiful.”
Harold Pinter on Samuel Beckett

As for his later work, well perhaps the best way for you to make up your mind is to tell you the following anecdote. Beckett knew he was dying and, in his final days, he was visited by a friend who asked him, “So, Sam, what will you miss most of all?” To this Beckett replied, “Precious little.” I don’t think he was simply being characteristically negative. The little things are the precious ones.

As for Milgram, I’m afraid I do believe that humanity is exactly what it is revealed to be by that experiment. The evidence from human history would also seem to suggest this.

Virgil
12-22-2005, 02:07 PM
My only exposure to Beckett, I'm afraid, is reading "Godot" and seeing an off Braodway production of a play I can't recall the name, but it was of a woman who sequentially gets buried up up to her neck, something like "Happy Days" or "Happy Times." I felt he was a true craftman and a true thinker. I wish I could read more, but time is limited.

The Unnamable
12-22-2005, 02:35 PM
Incredibly enough, I agree.
Less of the sarcasm, if you don't mind. ;)

I can only assume that the results of the experiment would be different if the teacher and learner were personally connected,

Perhaps, but for me that is no cause for optimism. It almost implies that we are only concerned with the suffering of those we know personally, which is hardly a laudable outlook. At the end of Elie Wiesel’s ‘Night’ (about his childhood in Auschwitz and Buchenwald Death Camps), he describes a moment when he hoped his own father were dead because his advancing years and physical fragility had been lessening Wiesel’s own chances of survival. He hates the Nazis for having made him think this and felt ashamed but it does suggest that, under certain conditions, we can all have such thoughts.

Recently, I read “A Writer at War: Vasily Grossman with the Red Army 1941-1945”. He was at the siege of Stalingrad. The Russians fought literally to the last bullet. When German soldiers were captured, sometimes wounded, sometimes not, the Russians simply had to kill them. They couldn’t keep them as prisoners because that would mean feeding them and there was not enough food for the Russians themselves. However, how do you kill a man? You shoot him in the head. But that uses a bullet and every one is needed to defend the city. So it was the job of the fittest and healthiest young women to despatch the equally young Germans with, usually, shovels or hammers. Seventeen-year-old girls cracking the skulls of eighteen-year-old boys. Just because it’s ‘wrong’ doesn’t mean it doesn’t or won’t happen. And a sense of this, the perspective of ourselves that it gives us is vital in my opinion.

I hope you don’t consider that to be irrelevant to the Milgram experiment because I think it is. For me, the experiment is fascinating for what it reveals about the difference between how we like to think of ourselves and how we really are.

In 1969 Ron Jones, a former high-school teacher from San Francisco, attempted to teach his pupils the realities of fascism by encouraging them to form a kind of classroom Hitler Youth. What subsequently happened is the subject of a book some of those on here might have read at school – 'The Wave' by Morton Rhue.

Finally, surely one of Golding’s points in ‘Lord of the Flies’ is that the nature of the majority of people is such that the Piggys and Simons of this world won’t remain alive?

starrwriter
12-22-2005, 03:32 PM
Less of the sarcasm, if you don't mind.
Man, is he in the wrong forum!

I think it's an interesting experiment, but for a devious reason. Psychology has a long history of using various forms of torture to "learn" about human nature. From Bedlam to psychiatric drugs with fatal side effects, psychologists have never been squeamish about dishing out pain and suffering. All they discovered was that humans have a dark side (especially them.)

kilted exile
12-22-2005, 05:24 PM
Ok, heres my explanation, the "teachers" were following the general stereotype and deliberately causing pain and hardship for their students.

Virgil
12-22-2005, 09:26 PM
LOL. I bet I had a few teachers in my time that really would have performed well in the experiment.

Virgil
12-22-2005, 09:57 PM
Perhaps, but for me that is no cause for optimism. It almost implies that we are only concerned with the suffering of those we know personally, which is hardly a laudable outlook. At the end of Elie Wiesel’s ‘Night’ (about his childhood in Auschwitz and Buchenwald Death Camps), he describes a moment when he hoped his own father were dead because his advancing years and physical fragility had been lessening Wiesel’s own chances of survival. He hates the Nazis for having made him think this and felt ashamed but it does suggest that, under certain conditions, we can all have such thoughts.


Let me ask this, the very act of your feeling of compassion towards the weak/suffering, not just you, but me, and millions of others, doesn't that bring a sense of optimism? Can we set up an experiment that would be the opposite of the Milgram experiment, where we bring forth a person suffering, howling in agony at the top of his lungs, and another person who has the means of easying the suffering (through an application of drugs). Wouldn't you think that the percentage of people easying the suffering would be higher than the hurtful of the Migram experiment? I would. And therefore I believe that humanity is predomintly good.

The Unnamable
12-22-2005, 11:41 PM
Let me ask this, the very act of your feeling of compassion towards the weak/suffering, not just you, but me, and millions of others, doesn't that bring a sense of optimism? Can we set up an experiment that would be the opposite of the Milgram experiment, where we bring forth a person suffering, howling in agony at the top of his lungs, and another person who has the means of easying the suffering (through an application of drugs). Wouldn't you think that the percentage of people easying the suffering would be higher than the hurtful of the Migram experiment? I would. And therefore I believe that humanity is predomintly good.

“Do not despair; one of the thieves was saved. Do not presume; one of the thieves was hanged.”

Perhaps someone out there knows of an experiment similar to Milgram’s but providing more welcome conclusions. I did see a (very unscientific) version on a small scale carried out by some television journalists. They took a young female actress, about 11 years old and dressed her to look like a runaway. She was then asked to sit looking distressed in the opening to an alley just off a shopping area. They filmed the reactions of strangers walking past her. Less than ten per cent of men stopped and tried to intervene in the situation of seeing a vulnerable young girl on her own. Just over 50 per cent of women did. Interestingly, when they later asked some of those who had ignored the girl’s plight why they hadn’t helped her, a number of the men pointed out that the present climate of the tyranny of political correctness made them very wary of stopping to speak to a young girl, especially one that could have been a vulnerable runaway.

On your other point, perhaps the following is relevant. In the UK a while ago, the legal guidelines concerning taking students on school educational visits were changed. It was deemed unacceptable for any teacher who had a child of his or her own on such a trip to be the sole teacher in charge. This is because it was felt that in the event, say, of a bus crash, the teacher who is a parent would probably try to save his or her own child first.

A number of years ago I saved someone from drowning. I can remember watching a TV programme where a man who had rushed into a burning building to save a child was interviewed. He said that he just did it without thinking, almost as if it was instinctive. It wasn’t like that for me. I remember thinking that it might be dangerous to jump the water and try to help him because his arms were flailing about violently. I think a part of what made me jump in was my awareness that I should do and this is, to a large extent, socially conditioned. I also felt really pleased with myself afterwards and wonder how big a part is played by simple vanity.


I don’t share your positive view of humanity. However, I am always humbled (yes, it is possible) whenever I read Anne Frank’s diary entry reading, “I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.” She had more reason than most to believe the opposite and yet this remarkable young girl kept faith with us.

Virgil
12-23-2005, 12:07 AM
“Do not despair; one of the thieves was saved. Do not presume; one of the thieves was hanged.”

Perhaps someone out there knows of an experiment similar to Milgram’s but providing more welcome conclusions. I did see a (very unscientific) version on a small scale carried out by some television journalists. They took a young female actress, about 11 years old and dressed her to look like a runaway. She was then asked to sit looking distressed in the opening to an alley just off a shopping area. They filmed the reactions of strangers walking past her. Less than ten per cent of men stopped and tried to intervene in the situation of seeing a vulnerable young girl on her own. Just over 50 per cent of women did. Interestingly, when they later asked some of those who had ignored the girl’s plight why they hadn’t helped her, a number of the men pointed out that the present climate of the tyranny of political correctness made them very wary of stopping to speak to a young girl, especially one that could have been a vulnerable runaway.

On your other point, perhaps the following is relevant. In the UK a while ago, the legal guidelines concerning taking students on school educational visits were changed. It was deemed unacceptable for any teacher who had a child of his or her own on such a trip to be the sole teacher in charge. This is because it was felt that in the event, say, of a bus crash, the teacher who is a parent would probably try to save his or her own child first.
A number of years ago I saved someone from drowning. I can remember watching a TV programme where a man who had rushed into a burning building to save a child was interviewed. He said that he just did it without thinking, almost as if it was instinctive. It wasn’t like that for me. I remember thinking that it might be dangerous to jump the water and try to help him because his arms were flailing about violently. I think a part of what made me jump in was my awareness that I should do and this is, to a large extent, socially conditioned. I also felt really pleased with myself afterwards and wonder how big a part is played by simple vanity.


That's not vanity. You ought to be proud. That was heroic.

As to that hypothetical experiment I mentioned. In effect, I see that experiment every night. My father is in a nursing home on a ventilator. I visit him every night on my way home from work. The aids and nurses there try to do their best for all the patients. My father is not too bad. Hopefully he may make it home when he's weaned off the machine. But some of the other patients are in such bad shape. Such suffering, and yet such compassion.