DUMAS

[fayefaye]

I love Dumas. I'm hoping there's someone else out there who's read the whole three musketeers series? I currently don't know anyone else who has so I don't have anyone to talk to about it cry What did you think of the plot and characterisation of any of the books? What's your favourite scene? My favourite scenes are when Athos says to the English guy he's about to fight, 'You'll regret having asked me my name, because I am thought to be dead, and now that you know my secret, I must kill you' D I don't have the exact quote handy, but something to that effect.
My other fave scene is when Athos breaks his sword before Louis XIV in The Man in the Iron Mask.

Also, what did you make of Louise de la Valliere? Outright skank or innocent and misunderstood? Well, it wouldn't really be right to call her a skank, but if you know what she did to Raoul and Athos - my two favourite characters, then you'll know what I mean. Actually, I'm not sure that Dumas knew how to portray Louise. I mean, in the Vicomte de Bragellonne she seemed nice and harmless enough, but he changed his portrayal of her quite rapidly; By the end of Louise de la Valliere, I hated her with a vengeance, and then in The Man in the Iron Mask I just felt sorry for her. Either way, what do you think?

Have you read The Count of Monte Cristo either?

[Shea]

I bought The Man in the Iron Mask when that movie came out, not really being familiar with the Musketeer stories. Then I realized that I needed to read the other books first and just haven't had the chance yet.

I have read the Count of Monte Cristo, and absolutely loved it! Especially the end. And although the movie butchered the book, I liked it too, in it' s own way.

I'm sure you've read Huck Finn (most people have to). I like Twain, but because he criticizes authors like Dumas and Cervantes in a story I would have otherwise completely enjoyed, I have a slightly limited respect for him.

[den]

:o Have you see most recent version of THe Count of Monte Cristo as movie? :oops: Jim Caviezel as Edmund Dantes is stunning, and Guy Pearce as usual charming as dashing arrogant fool. I love this classic story.

[Shea]

Yeah that's the one that I saw. It promted me to read the book, because I like it so much. The book is definately better, but the movie is still excellent. ;)

[den]

I liked the soundtrack too. Yum.

[fayefaye]

I liked the count of monte cristo, but I thought he made edmond dantes to be too much of a hero- the bringer of divine retribution. I would have liked him to be more human. But someone here must have read the three musketeers series? if u haven't, you most certainly should!

[shahril]

hey... finally i found someone who's reading the three musketeers. hope we can share a lots of things about the story especially on the characters and significant scenes. and i'm also like to discuss about any emotional qualities in the male characters in the story...so what do you think??

[dru]

I know what you are saying. After reading the Three Musketeers I decided that I had to read the rest of the novels. I have currently read all of them except for The Man in the Iron Mask which I am planning to read next month.
Dumas has quickly become my favorite author. I can't get over how quickly I am able to read these 600 page books.
It is difficult to pick a favorite scene. One of my favorites was the climax of there battle with Milady's son, I found it interesting that, technically it was nature that finished the job.
As far as I am concerned there is no character lower than Louise. I can't imagine a possible way Dumas can improve my image of her after what she did in Louise de la Valliere.

[dru]

I know what you are saying. After reading the Three Musketeers I decided that I had to read the rest of the novels. I have currently read all of them except for The Man in the Iron Mask which I am planning to read next month.
Dumas has quickly become my favorite author. I can't get over how quickly I am able to read these 600 page books.
It is difficult to pick a favorite scene. One of my favorites was the climax of there battle with Milady's son, I found it interesting that, technically it was nature that finished the job.
As far as I am concerned there is no character lower than Louise. I can't imagine a possible way Dumas can improve my image of her after what she did in Louise de la Valliere.

[fayefaye]

DRU!! SOMEBODY ELSE!! i was beginning to think i was the only person here who had read the series!! Actually, you'd be surprised. Louise becomes a lot less hateable in Man in the Iron Mask, I almost ended up liking the character, but she's more pitiable than anything. Dumas is definately one of my fave authors. Yes, that was a really great scene, but did you notice Dumas' allusion to - wait for it- SPOILERS FOR TWENTY YEARS AFTER.
SPOOIIILLLERRRSS. DO NOT KEEP READING UNLESS U'VE READ THE BOOK














THE ALLUSION TO milady's son being athos's??!! (dum dum dummmm) I mean, think about how he behaved when he had to kill him. That ain't our usual athos, now is it? Or, is that what you meant when you said that 'technically it was nature that finished the job?'

[dru]

By nature I just meant the water finished the job. As for Milady's son I pretty much assumed what you alluded to given Athos' very suspicious behavior. As for Louise, I can't imagine feeling sorry for her after the way she has acted.

I find it so interesting how these four Musketeers get pitted against each other by circumstances and lose touch for long periods of time yet nothing is ever allowed to really come between them. By putting them into historical situations with real people makes these four men seem like they really existed. Do you have other favorite scenes?

[dru]

By nature I just meant the water finished the job. As for Milady's son I pretty much assumed what you alluded to given Athos' very suspicious behavior. As for Louise, I can't imagine feeling sorry for her after the way she has acted.

I find it so interesting how these four Musketeers get pitted against each other by circumstances and lose touch for long periods of time yet nothing is ever allowed to really come between them. By putting them into historical situations with real people makes these four men seem like they really existed. Do you have other favorite scenes?

[fayefaye]

SPOOILLLERSS














i'm nearly positive that monk's (that was his name, right?) body floats to the surface with a dagger in his heart. doesn't athos kill him? it's been a while since i read it. louise-it's not entirely her fault. she was and remains in love with the king. blame louis for what happens later. but, yes, one could easily hate her. poor raoul. he is such a great character. actually, yes, the way they get pitted against each other is one of the things i wanted to discuss about the series. did you notice how that last book (if u've finished it yet) lacks the sparkle of the previous? like all the valour and glory has diminished? do you think this reflects the passing of age for the musketeers? in the end, some things do come between them, esp between aramis and d'artagnon. politics. and those four men did really exist, btw. the comte de la fere, chevalier d'herbley, d'artagnon... they were all real ppl; though dumas did create a few of his own. i have lots of fave scenes. when they were tracking down milady, and she kills madame bononcieux (sp?) and when she corrupts the guard to kill buckingham, and he draws the sword from his breast and hands it to the servant saying, 'give this to anne of austria.' 'anything else?' 'yes. tell her that i... that i love her' that's so bewdiful. CAN YOU BELIEVE SHE ENDS UP WITH MAZARIN? evil evil all the female characters in the series seem to be like that; you know, stab the guys who loved them in the back. apparently dumas was a bit of a womaniser; do you think that has something to do with it?

[dru]

I had to skip over the previous post because I have not read the Man in the Iron Mask yet (but I will be reading it next month). Who is your favorite Musketeer (i fyou had to pick one) and why?

[fayefaye]

Oh, i didn't put in man in the iron mask spoilers because I knew you hadn't read it yet. I meant they were spoilers for the rest of the series, though I do allude to some stuff I guess.. ATHOS. He is so great. Even Dumas refers to him as almost superhuman. He has that great sense of honour and valour even when the other musketeers sort of loose theirs along the way. He's the glue that keeps them together. I think he's above Louis XIV, in terms of ... well, he seems more regal, strangely enough. How bout u? Read Man in the Iron mask soon, so we can talk about it!

[Eowyn]

Has anyone seen Gerard Depardieu in the french version of The Count of Monte Christo?

[fayefaye]

nope. i always try to read the book rather than watch the movie. it's a thing i have.

[Eowyn]

Do you ever read the book and watch the movie? Depardieu is pretty good, if you decide to break with your 'thing'.

[fayefaye]

sometimes.

[Sindhu]

fayefaye, given that you really like Dumas, there's a new novel you should check out- The Club Dumas by Arturo Perez- Reverte. Here's a link to a review www.bookpage.com/9702bp/fiction/theclubdumas.html -
It's pretty exciting with lost manuscripts being discovered etc!

[fayefaye]

thanks. i'll check it out when i get time. wink

[IWilKikU]

ya know sometimes there are great movie adaptations, like "The Musketeer"!!! WOW!!! Who would have ever thought that french swordsmen could learn eastern martial arts menuevers?!?! Wait... I guess they wouldn't have, would they? On second thought...THAT MOVIE SUCKED!!!

[dru]

In regard to favorite Musketeer I would also have to say Athos. I think each of the Musketeers seem so real because they have personalities just like so many people I have known. Pothos reminds me of friends that a great fun to be around even though it is easy to see how vain they can be, while Athos reminds me of guys who are always working on secret romances. D'artagnan, is almost too good to be true. He reminds me of what we aspire to be but Athos is the most real to me. He has been hurt the worst but fate yet he is noble, loyal, and courageous in all things. As I read about how Raoul handled the adversity thrust upon him by Louise (I still can picture myself ever liking her) I can almost picture him learning from Athos how to be a man in the face of tragedy.

I will have to read the Man in the Iron Mask very soon because right now I think Louise may be worse than Milady. Dumas is my favorite writer but I don't think even he can change my opinion.

[fayefaye]

Pothos reminds me of friends that a great fun to be around even though it is easy to see how vain they can be, while Athos reminds me of guys who are always working on secret romances. D'artagnan, is almost too good to be true. He reminds me of what we aspire to be but Athos is the most real to me. He has been hurt the worst but fate yet he is noble, loyal, and courageous in all things. As I read about how Raoul handled the adversity thrust upon him by Louise (I still can picture myself ever liking her) I can almost picture him learning from Athos how to be a man in the face of tragedy.

I will have to read the Man in the Iron Mask very soon because right now I think Louise may be worse than Milady. Dumas is my favorite writer but I don't think even he can change my opinion.

i feel the same way about porthos, but athos didn't strike me as a secret romantic. it was more like he was noble. he was above the rest and above the rest of society, but in a human way. that's what makes the end so tragic.. and his past with milady also. i found the man in the iron mask fairly disappointing, actually. i looked everywhere trying to track down that book, and read it.. but the last books.. they just lack the valour of the first. it's like the musketeers have lost their charm with their youth. i don't know what it is.. there's a certain je nais sais quoi which they have at the start but not at the end. something they loose with age. the king is less noble, it's almost like their society starts crumbling around them. all the values they used to hold blow up in their face. it's like some big feeling of disillusionment. what is it? the way in the first book, none of them cared about money, and towards the end it's so important to everyone but athos. they used to not care about power, they used to value their beliefs and hold their integrity. in the first book, d'artagnon would never go to the king asking for money, yet later that is precisely what we see him doing. what do you think it is that they loose with their youth? what comment do you think dumas was trying to make by doing that? or was it just a slip up? did he just loose his skill towards the end...? i've been trying to figure it out, u know? there's something so brilliant about the way they behaved in the first books. so courageously it was so cool to read 'now u know my secret, i must kill you'.. and yet at the end, it's not really like that at all. as for louise, well, yes, i hate her for what she did to raoul. but as a person, as a character, she was in love. portrayed sometimes as a mockingbird and sometimes as a stupid little girl by dumas.. ultimately she was someone completely in love, and ends up getting burned by it also. i've alluded to too much. pay no attention, but get back to me when u've read it. read it!!

[Sindhu]

The ONly word for your last post is PERSUASIVE fayefaye- I've been sitting on the book for years :oops: but Ithink I will get down to reading it this time round!

[dru]

When I wrote "Athos" in my previous posting I really meant "Aramis." That was a very large error. Thanks for catching that.

I do think you have a point about how the character change with age. Perhaps Dumas was trying to make that point that even noble, honorable men like the Musketeers end up bending on some of their ideals as they grow older. Even men like these end up doing things like marrying for love and not money or asking for what they would not dream of asking for as a young man (money). I always admired how in their younger days money meant nothing. If they had some they would generously spend it on each other. Perhaps as we get older and skills diminish the need for money to feel a sense of security gets much stronger. At least Athos stays true to him ideals but maybe that is because he is hurting too much inside to care for much else.

What do you think? Can we hold on to the ideals of youth as we get older or do the fears of increasing responsibilities to others as our skills and health decline force us to put other things ahead of our ideals and honor? If D'artagnan changed how much of a chance do we have?

[dru]

Of course, it could have been a slip. After all Dumas was writing thousands and thousands when you consider all of his books. Did you notice that in the Three Musketeers D'Artagnan is made a Musketeer on two separate occassions. I guess Dumas lost track of some of what he was writing, and that was a big part of the story.

[fayefaye]

to some extent i think that dumas did just lose his skill. on another level though, it feels as though he was making a message about their aging. but it wasn't just the musketeers themselves; it was their whole society too. they all become corrupted. sweet louise turns out u-know-how. the revered cardinal richeliou is replaced by mazarin. and





SPOILERS FOR TWENTYY YEARS AFTER
anne of austria ends up with mazarin, having held out against buckingham. it wasn't just the musketeers that changed. the king became less noble, also and only athos managed to hold onto his ideals. maybe aside from the musketeers aging, dumas wanted to make the point that perhaps that whole era of chivalry had passed also.

[dru]

Along with the idea of losing some of the honor they possessed in youth, does it bother you the way Porthos became rich? I find it interesting that these are men of romance yet none find romantic love that does not end in tradegy. I do believe that when compared to those around them, the Musketeers do remain far more noble in their words and deeds.

I have also enjoyed how the Musketeers (and other characters) have bene involved in more than a few prision escapes, yet each one is different and exciting. Which was best: Beaufort in 20 years after, Milady in The Three Musketeers, The attempt at rescuing Charles I, or Phillipe?

[fayefaye]

Charles 1 for sure. oh, philipe was good too. i don't mind that porthos ended up rich-he was always vain. but i was disappointed in aramis and d'artagnon. they started out real good, then u see d'artagnon asking for money and aramis trying to end up cardinal.

[dru]

I read The Man in the Iron Mask this week. I thought I knew the story from seeing 2 movie versions. I was surprised just how little I really knew.

Spoilers - The Man in the Iron Mask





I was thinking a lot about the changes we have discussed in the Musketeers and the lack of honor of other characters. I too was very disappointed in Aramis. To deceive Porthos and the others for his own ambition of becoming cardinal and even pope was horrible. I think with the deaths of the Musketeers (other than Aramis) Dumas was trying to say that having true honor and living by a code of "all for one and one for all" no longer exists. I think that D'artagnan embodied bravery and loyalty, Porthos embodied strength and love of his friends, and Athos and Raoul embodied honor, dignity, and living up to one's convictions. I think that Dumas may have been trying to say that these qualities, which I would call "honor" no longer exist and that people do not liveup to a code of higher morals. Aramis on the other hand changes. He becomes like the rest of society. He becomes like Richelieu and Mazarin. His selfish ambition becomes more important than his friends and his code. I think that is why he ends up still alive at the end of the novel while the others have died. In a sense he has adapted to our culture.

What do you think? Do you think Dumas was making this point? When you talk about D'artagnan asking for money, I assume you mean at the very end before going to Holland. I found that so strange and out of character. Perhaps Dumas was hinting that even D'artagnan was starting to change and become more like his culture (personally I hope it was just an oversight).

How sad was Porthos' death? Despite all the foreshadowing I did not want to believe it was going to happen (that poor noble giant). How sweet is was to leave so much to Raoul.

I finished reading this book on a plane and I had 2 people notice this and ask me what I thought of the book and told me how much they loved the movie (from about 50 years ago). I guess the Musketeers have reached many many people.

[dru]

No one wants to discuss the musketeer novels?

[fayefaye]

spoilers for everyone who hasn't read the series.

of course i do! and yes, i certainly agree: ur points were very valid. i don't particularly like aramis-he's my least favourite of the musketeers because of what he did later. i thought it was sweet that he cried at porthos' death though. it showed he was still human inside. he still had a sense of comaraderie, it had just disappeared beneath everything else.

[dru]

Aramis should have cried at Pothos' death. As far as I am concerned his death was Aramis' fault. Wha a perfect last will and testament Porthos left, though. I just read that Dumas also cried while writing the death of Porthos.

I am still bothered byD'Artagnan's requesting a lot of money to fight against the Dutch. It just does not fit, unless Dumas was trying to show that he was starting to change andbecome more like the rest of the French.

Do you think Dumas was making any statements about love or women? It seems that just about every real love ended in tragedy.

[Phineas]

i have read all of dumas work and i must say for consistency i would go for the count of monte christo

[fayefaye]

yeah- I remember reading that Dumas was something of a womaniser. I think he was making some sort of a statement about women and love. It didn't work out for any of them, did it? hmm.. I originally thought that he portrayed them all as inconsiderate towards the men in love with them-cold and mindless, evil even.[milady, louise de la valliere]. but at the same time, he shows that they can also suffer hardships that perhaps others do not understand [ louise de la valliere, anne of austria]. sometimes it seems like he was just showing the tragedy that love causes, and the women behind it. What about madame bonocieux, D'artagnon's only real interest? Her death sort of foreshadowed the way that all their romances wouldn't work out.

[dru]

I wonder if Dumas felt that love ends intragedy? After finishing the Man in the Iron Mask, did you feel some disappointmentknowingthat there are no more Musketeer novels? Dumas wrote another series of novels that started with Queen Margot. Have you read any of them?

[fayefaye]

I haven't read the other series, but I'll see if I can find them. Have you noticed how hard it is to find any Dumas novels other than The Three Musketeers and The Count of Monte Cristo? It was virtually impossible for me to get Louise de la valliere. I did feel disappointed, but more by the way he wrote the last book than by the knowledge there would be no more. I don't mind that it ends, as long as it ends well. And the man in the iron mask just wasn't written that well. He probably did think that love ends in tragedy.

[dru]

I was also bothered by the end. I thought that Porthos' death was very powerful but I thought that D'Artagnan's death was just slapped together without much thought or effort and his asking for money was downright disturbing.

I guess I imained that they would all have died together fighting in a battle that they could not possibly have won. I understand that Aramis did not die so that he could make his point that society was changing for the worse but did they have to die alone? Was this another way of saying that all for one no longer exists?

How would you have liked to see the story end?

What yousaid about the bookstores is true. I got all of my Musketeer books from amazon. I will probably read Queen Margot next month. The problem is the next two novels are hard to find and expensive if you do.

[fayefaye]

nah, Porthos' death was too drawn out, it lacked real feeling. I would have liked to just see them die in some grand, noble way. yes, I think they're dying alone was saying something about the way they were no longer close.

Ok, I would have liked to see Raoul kill himself before Louise de la Valliere as he originally intended, or, better yet, having an actual dual with the king (not congruous with history, but who cares?). I wanted to see.. maybe if they could have had one of them dying to save the others-like Porthos dies saving Aramis, or something, and Aramis, realising his selfishness, reunites with d'Artagnon and Athos. [both of whom live]. Then maybe Aramis gets shot and apologises for everything he did. At least then they could have all died nobly, and dramatically. Dare I say entertainingly also?

[fayefaye]

what about you?

[dru]

I would have liked to have seen Raoul die in front of Louise, but I think his faith in his religion would not have allowed him to commit suicide.He would have had to do something brave yet foolish. He would have had to something that would have surely gotten him killed. It would have been great to see him duel the king but I don't think a son of Athos could do that.

I would have also liked tohave seen Athos, D'artagnan, Aramis, and Porthos die together. I like the idea of Porthos dying while saving Aramis and then Aramis realizing the error of his ways. By doing this, he could have died also and Dumas could still have made his point.

Would you have liked to have seen Phillipe successfully taking Louis' place?
Did you feel like Dumas could have spent more time explaining Aramis' change? In Vicomte de Bragelonne and Louise de la Valliere he seems missing for most of the books, although when he does appear he seems to be up to something shady.

[fayefaye]

But at the end Raoul really commits suicide anyway, given the way he died like that. Yes, I think Aramis needed to be expanded on, but Phillipe was such a background character I can't see him taking louis place anyway. plus, that would be such a glaring historical blunder I don't think Dumas would have done it. What do you think? And what about the historical parallels? Do you think Dumas should have stuck more to history, or dramatized further?

[dru]

It would be a break from history if Dumas actually had switched Phillipe for Louis, but who is to say that he was not switched with a twin. In the story they looked the same so who would ever have known. Although Dumas wasn't complete true to all historical facts, to me it was close enough.
What do you think?

[fayefaye]

hmmm.. yeah, it probably wouldn't have mattered if he'd switched them.

[dru]

What did you think of D'artagnan;s attempt to talk Raoul out of "suicide?" Would you have liked to have seen him tell Raoul about the woman that he (D'artagnan) lost?

[Dr Cynic]

Fayefaye

I am currently reading a book by Gobineau but my next plan is to start reading Duams’ “Les Trois Mousquetaires” and its sequels (and what a shame, I haven’t read ANY Dumas to this day:( :( :( ).

But tell me first, have I got the sequence right? I think after “The 3 Musketeers” you’ve got “20 Years After” and then comes “Le Vicomte de Bragelonne”, is that right?

[fayefaye]

Dr Cynic-Yes, then after that is Louise de la Valliere and finally The Man in the Iron Mask. If you haven't read them yet, don't read this thread because it's jam-packed with spoilers!


I would have liked to see Raoul kill himself in a more noble way than that. Or I would have liked to see D'artagnon actually find a way around it. What do you think?

[dru]

What do you mean when you say, D'artagnan finding a way around it? and do you have any suggestions how?

[fayefaye]

Well, he could have convinced Raoul not to kill himself, or maybe told him to do it in a more heroic way. What do you think of Raoul's death?

[Dr Cynic]

Hi everyone

I am proud to announce that I have begun reading Dumas’ colossal novel Les Trois Mousquetaires. I’ve done 120 pages so far, and I’ve enjoyed every single word. Just hope it stays like this right through the end!

Fayefaye-

Yeah thanks for the advice mate: I am not reading any other posts on this page.

[fayefaye]

yeah, you shouldn't so much as glance at this thread! EVERY post is a spoiler! If you're ignoring that advice and reading this anyway, I hope you enjoy the three Musketeers. It's a really great series, and you'd definately be surprised how incredibly easy it is to get through those 'colossal' novels. I would pick up French again just to read it in it's original form.. *sigh* From the title you've given it, I assume you are?

[Dr Cynic]

Originally posted by fayefaye
yeah, you shouldn't so much as glance at this thread! EVERY post is a spoiler! ....
Yes, I AM reading your post, but not those sent by other people: with the slightest hint that they are giving the story way, I just look the other way.

I would pick up French again just to read it in it's original form.. *sigh* From the title you've given it, I assume you are?

Good guess: I read English and French literature in the original. And that's a good idea to brush up on your French. Keep it up, pal, and good luck.

[fayefaye]

Je ne parlez pas francaise. :( Ack, terrible! With my French, I can't really understand ANY of it in it's original form. Oh well. Good luck to you too... with the series, I mean.

[IWilKikU]

You guys keep saying stuff about "The Series". Are there any other Musketeer books other than The Three Musketeers and Man in the Iron Mask? <feels stupid for having to ask :o :(

[dru]

I would have liked to have seen D'Artagnan have done a better job of persuading Raoul. He could have told Raoul abouthis own past and the loss he faced (although perhaps Dumas thought that would be redunant for the reader?).
I do believe that he had to die to make Dumas' point that living with honor no longer exists. His death also made me like him even more. Up until the end when he fulfilled his purpose, I thoughhe was one of the greatest literary example of havingdiginity and honor despite losing what felt like everything.
There is a part of me that would have liked to have seen him challenge the king and have died being overpowered by guards but Athos did not raise him to attack the king and it would have placed the Musketeers in a bad spot. Not to mention that Louise, not Louis was to blame.

What would you have like to have happened to Raoul? Would you have wanted him to remain alivein the end? Would you have preferred to have seen the Musketeers die together or one by one?

[fayefaye]

I lost all respect for Raoul when I found out when he died. i wanted the honour to live on-take on the king! take on the world! He could have lived or killed himself in a better way, witholding dignity and honour. I would have liked them to die in a way that meant they were at least still together in spirit. And i think louis was at LEAST partially to blame-HE went after louise, and later leaves her for that other girl. he never REALLY loved her, he was just so self absorbed he loved the way she made him feel. And when he got tired of that he tossed her aside like a dirty old rag.

[dru]

It is true that Louis does have some blame, though Louise bothers me the most because she id not live up to her bond with Raoul.
I would also have like to have seen them die facing impossible odds together instead of having them die one by one, essentially alone. I am also still lived with the let down of the last death.
Have you read Dumas' The Knight of Maison ROuge? I think it has only recently been translated and released. I just read it. The book jacket claims the characters are on par with the Musketeers. I would certainly not go that far but it was a good book and I wouldn't mind having someone to discuss it with.

[fayefaye]

No, but I will try to find it. I just found a copy of The Black Tulip. :D I'll read it as soon as I can. have you read it?
As for Louise, I'm not entirely sure what to make of her. i mean, she was so weak in not being able to refuse Raoul, but at the same time, she was kinda strong through the Louis ordeal. She's not completely without a backbone, but I can't respect her that much either.

[dru]

I also just got the Black Tulip and will be reading it soon. As for Louise, I just can't seem to forgive her. If she did not love Raoul thenshe should not have allowed things to go so far with him andshould not have promised to be with him. If she did love him, then how could she allow herself to hurt him that way.

I wonder if the Raoul's best friend, the Comte ever ended up helping Louise out when other's in the court turned against her. I wonder if he thentold her that he helped her because Raoul asked him to. I thought that was a great scene when Raoul asked him to do that favor.

I wish that Dumas had also written a book involving the three musketeers before they met D'artagnan. How about you?

[fayefaye]

No, d'Artagnon had to be there for sure. As for Raoul asking the comte to help Louise, I think it would've been a nice touch to see that too. Him sticking up for her on behalf of Raoul, I mean.

But, you see, the reason Louise did that was because she loved raoul. She loved him, but only as a friend. When she said yes, it was because she was scared to hurt him, and she inadvertantly hurts him in the end by trying to protect him like that. If she had said no, Raoul probably wouldn't have given up until she said yes-that's the sort of guy he was. Of course, she should have told him about her love for the king, rather than have him discover it how he did.

[dru]

If she only loved Raoul as a friend she had a duty to express that to him before she accepted his proposal.

I would still like to know more about the early days of the Musketeers. I would like to know the entire story betwen Athos and Milady. Although is it propably a good thing to be left wanting more.

Did you find Raoul much more interesting after he was hurt by Louise. I wasn't all that interested in him during the "Vicomte de Bragelonne" but found him extremely interesing as he delt wth his hardship.

On another note, I saw the film "the revenge of the musketeers" based on 20 years after. It was pretty bad. They changed Milady's son into a woman and had Raoul fall for her and was total not true to his character.

[fayefaye]

She did, sort of. He wouldn't listen. I found Raoul more interesting before hand, i think the way he dealt with it was weak. I like not knowing that much about the early years.

[Dr Cynic]

Well I’ve just finished “Les Trois Mousquetaires” and this is one of the most absorbing books I’ve ever read.

600 pages of non-stop, breath-taking entertainment and a living testimony to Dumas’ extraordinary power of imagination. I just hope that the sequels “Vingt Ans Après” and “Le Vicomte de Bragelonne” are as exciting as this one.

May thy soul rest in peace, Dumas.

[dru]

It is amazing how fast 600 pages go by when you are reading the Musketeers. While nothing can top the original hree Musketeers the books that follow are also very absorbing.

Who was your favorite character? What wee your favorite scenes?
By the way do not read the previous entries in this thread because there are a lot of spoilers.

[Dr Cynic]

Originally posted by dru
....Who was your favorite character? What wee your favorite scenes?


It's very difficult to choose one particular scene from this lovely book of non-stop drama, but I really loved that episode where they capture Milady and the summary trial /execution that follows.

My favourite character, well, who else? D'Artagnan.

[dru]

Spoiler - do not read if youhave not read TMITIM


I think I have uncovered the reason Dumas had D'artagnan die the way he did - a way that was less than fitting for such a great character.

The character of D'artagnan was based on a real life Musketeer that lived in the 1600. A book of his memoirs existed and was read by Dumas and his collaborators. This "real" D'artagnan was killed in a battle with the Dutch just prior to getting the Marshall's baton. He was hit in the neck by a musket bullet while valiantly crossing a bridge under heavy enemy fire.

At least now I think I know why the character D'artagnan died the way he did. However, Dumas was always completely faithful to history and I still wish he came up with a better end for D'artagnan. What do you think?

[fayefaye]

He wasn't completely faithful to history. But, I don't know.. he could have taken some sort of poetic licence to do it differently.

[dru]

There was a typo in my last post. I meant to say that Dumas was not always faithful to history. I too wish that he had strayed from history in order to provide D'artagnan with a more fitting end.

[fayefaye]

Yeah-he screwed around with so many other aspects of history-why not this?

[Cassandra]

Dumas is one of my fav writers. I'm currently comparing Inferno and Monte Cristo, the parallels are really amazing, Dumas was dead smart. I love knowing what authors are making references to and where some of their inspiration comes from. It makes books that much more real :)

[dru]

Dumas is the greatest. Welcome to the thread C.

I recently read a book in which a main character strongly identified with Milady. Called Athos a drunk, Aramis a traitor and womanizer, Porthos a vane buffoon, and D'Artagnan a rapist. She went on to say that Milady was the true noble character. She remained loyal to Richilieu and fought with courage.
Any thoughts? Can the Musketeers be seen differently from another perspective?

[Cassandra]

It's true that authors try toinfluence your thinking, but even if you just look at the facts and not really explore the characters I don't see how she could be right.

The woman has a point but I don't think she looked fully into the characters and their history. The Musketeers are more real because they have their defects, although I don't agree with what this lady said, especially concerning Aramis and D'Artagnan, which seem almost totally unfounded. Athos does get drunk quite frequently but this is due to Milady and he retains his noble character even when drunk. Porthos is admittedly a fop to a great extent but this does not make him a bad person.

She seems to have failed to look at Milady's deeper motives or her less than pristine history, which although told by the musketeers, she has no excuse or denial of. Examples being; being married twice, stealing from churches and wanting to kill Buckingham for private revenge not just for the Cardinal also killing Canstance to get back at d'Artagnan.

[fayefaye]

she was right about the other characters, but dead wrong about d'artagnon. a lot of milady's actions were pure evil, as cass said. iF aramis is a womaniser, milady is a mananiser

[Cassandra]

I like the new word Faye. Dartagnan did lead Milady on but he never slept with her and he told the truth in the end. Maybe whoever said this saw the movie of the man inthe iron mask. Didn't the writer of that have d'Artgnan sleep with the Queen or something, I'm not sure, it was quite different from the book and I saw it a long time ago.

[fayefaye]

I don't know, but he definately doesn't do that in the book

[Cassandra]

I know he doesn't do it in the book, i've read it two or three times, I just wondered if maybe that was where this strange woman had got her opinions.

[fayefaye]

But dumas positions the reader so strongly against milady, I don't think that anybody who's read them can think she's the good character

[dru]

I agree. It is difficult to believe that Milady was the noble character. I did find considering her persepective interesting though.

Which character do youconsider to be most like you (or do you relate to most) and why?

[z3050842]

How many english versions of this book or just one?

which is the best?

[Phineas]

i absoultely love Dumas i have read all of the musketters you might as well say anything to do with dumas i have read:)

[dru]

Has anyone read The Black Tulip or The Knight of Maison Rouge?

[fayefaye]

I sort of relate to athos. He's so out of place, in a better world, almost.

[dru]

Do you mean that he lives in his own, better world?

[fayefaye]

that he should. what do you think? who would you relate to?

[dru]

Physically I probably resemble Porthos more but I relate most to Athos. He seems to live according to his own code even though most around him do not.

[fayefaye]

exactly what I love about athos. Porthos was so shallow. he had a good heart, though. but a lot of the time dumas was just making fun of his stupidity.

[Avalive]

A good work.
I don't really love the whole novel. But there are some parts I 'm crazy about. Like the part he was in jail and learnt everything with the oddly knowledgeable priest. And I love (very much) the every last lines of the book.
on Page 1462:
"... the day when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these two words,-"Wait and hope. "-

[fayefaye]

yeah, I loved that part too, and had somehow managed to forget it till you posted it up there. :) thanks for that. But the count of monte cristo is really nothing in comparison with the three musketeers.

[dru]

Porthos definitely was involved in so amusing scenes. One of the funniest lines in all of the musketeer novels, in my opinion involved Porthos (I don't remember the exact quote so it will not be very funny when I tell it).
I believe it was the scene when Porthos was helping to arrange a duel for Raoul (though he had no idea exactly what/why he was doing it. At the end of the scene the line was something like:
"Of course I know" said Porthos who knew nothing.

What were some of your favorite comic relief scenes or lines involving Porthos or anyone else?

[fayefaye]

Funny thing about that was the guy he was talking to thought he was a genious. I think that was the funniest part of the man in the iron mask for sure.

[dru]

What do you think of the way through most of the books Aramis wants to be a priest when he is a musketeer but then wants to be a musketeer when he is a priest?

I think that is fairly common in life. It seems that many times people soon get tired with the path they have chosen, but as soon as they change courses they get tired again?

I found this part of Aramis' character very interesting. Any thoughts?

[fayefaye]

I think it was sort of nicely ironic. But it's so typical of aramis in particular, to want what he doesn't have and behave so duplicitously.

[dru]

Do you think there is some of this quality in all of us?

[fayefaye]

sure. you?

[dru]

I do. It seems we alwayswant more than we have. When we finally have one thing we want something else.

Spoiler

Did you find the death of Porthos similar to the death of Abbe Faria in the Count of Monte Cristo?

[fayefaye]

no, not really. both pretty predicatble though. what did you think?

[CBW]

I have become addicted to Monte Cristo. I always read it when the semester ends. That month inbetween when I get out of school and when my daughter gets out of school for the summer. It is my way of unwinding after a hectic semester.
I bought The Three Muskateers to read but never got around to reading it.
Someone mentioned reading the novels in french. Is there a place online that would have these in French at a pretty reasonalbe price? I have been learning french and it would be wonderful if I could get some of my favorite books in the language they were written in.

[CBW]

I started reading The Three Muskateers after reading this thread, and have had a very hard time putting it down. I am truly enjoying it.
Would anyone know what is the order for the rest of the books?

[dru]

The order is: The three musketeers, 20 years after, vicomte de bragelonne, louise de la valliere, the man in the ironmask. I recommend them all. They are all great.

I am now reading the 1,300 page unabridged version of the count of monte cristo perhaps we will discuss.


Spoilers----------------------
Abbe Faria died on the third physical "attack" (his were some sort of epileptic seizure) as opposed to attacks of weakness.
He also knew that his time was near as his father was died of the same affliction.
He was extremely close to escape when it happened.
His companion managed to escape because of him.

[fayefaye]

english or french?

[Xiketa]

Hi! I'm new here and I think your discussions are very interesting. If you like Dumas, there's an amazing novel by Arturo Pérez-Reverte that you would like. He's a fabulous spanish writer and he knows so much about Dumas! This book is called "The Club Dumas" and it's really really good.
Enjoy it! ;)

[dru]

I did read Club Dumas. It was very good and had a lot of very interesting Dumas information. There was also a movie based on it starring Johnny Depp called the Ninth Gate. Did anyone see it?

The movie cut out everything about Dumas and the Three Musketeers which was a disappointment and took away from the story.

I also just read that the COunt of Monte Cristo was also inspired by a true story discovered from the Paris police files.

[dru]

In response to fayefaye I just finished the unabridge Count in English. Care to discuss this or any other Dumas book?

[fayefaye]

I had no idea it was based on a true story... how many other dumas books were based on true stories? I know three musketeers was.

[Xiketa]

I've seen "The Ninth Gate" and I agree with you fayefaye. The film is ok for someone that hasn't read the book but... in my opinion, the most interesting chapters of the Dumas Club were cut off.
Moreover, Emmanuelle Seigner WASN'T the right choice, she has nothing to do with the girl in the book! :confused:

[dru]

Hey, I was the one that mentioned the movie.

As for the real events for which the count of montecristo is based - A man named Picaud in France was falsely denounced as a spy by his friends led by a man who was jealous of picaud's relationship with his (picaud's) fiancee. Picaud was placed on house arrest and sentenced to be a servant to an Italian cleric in a castle. When the cleric died he old him the whereabouts of a hidden treasure.

With the fall of Napolean, Picaud was released, after collectign the treasure he returned to paris. His fiance had married themanwho betrayed him. Picaud disguised himself and found the true identity of those who betrayed him. He stabbed on man who betrayed him and burned down the house of the one who betrayed him and married his fiancee. Picaud lured theman's son into crime and his daughter into prostitution. Picaud was later killed by the man who told him thetruth about hisbetrayal.

Interesting stuff but it took Dumas to turn it into a classic novel.

[CBW]

Well, graduation was yesterday and the party is done. THe hangover will wear off in a day or two. I have no job, as of yet, and not much cleaning to do since my husband hired a housekeeper as a graduation present. So I just went and ordered the rest of the Musketeers series. I can not wait to get them in and read them. I plan on doing a little relaxing this week, and I plan on doing a lot of reading.

[dru]

Enjoy the Musketeers. You won't be ableto put it down.

Anyone care to share any Musketeer quotes or scenes?

[CBW]

Dru I read the first one and loved it. You are definitely right about not putting it down. I carried it with me everywhere trying to sneak in a few pages here and there. The other books in the series should be in today, and I am really looking forward to starting them. I finished the first one a few days ago.

[mburton]

I'm currently reading Count of Monte Cristo. Maybe I'm confused, or maybe it will be explained later, but in Chapter 45, Bertuccio tells his story of killing (Stabbing) Villefort about 11-16 years earlier, but as the story proceeds in the present, Villefort is still alive. Is this a different character? Did he survive the attack? Was Bertuccio maKing the story up?
Let me know if the answer is forthcoming, or if I missed something.
Thanks.

[dru]

Read on, the answer is coming.

[dru]

I just finished a Dumas novel called "Georges" that just happened to be in my neighborhood library eventhough I have never seen it in any bookstores. The book is about Georges, a mulato in a racist society. His father defends the island heroicly even though he is not allowed to fight with the whites. He manages to take the enemy's flag. This trophy is later taken from him by the whites. Young Georges gets educated abroad and later returns for revenge. There are similarities to the Count of Monte Cristo and I believe to Dumas and is father's life. Has anyone read this? ANy thoughts on Dumas' life as inspiation for this book?

[fayefaye]

I think dumas' occasionally misogynistic themes sprang from his life as a womaniser, and the way at the start the musketeers don't care about money is sort of like how dumas wasted all his money and ended up bankrupt. That's interesting about COMC though, I thinkdumas got most of his stories from history.

[dru]

I can't think of anyfemale dumas character with much substance. The few women seem to be evil or idolized more than truly loved or understood by the men. What o you think dumas thought of women?

[simon]

I think that all his female characters are simple and undeveloped like you dru, based on that I would say that his relationships with women weren't realistic. Maybe he thougt of women more as something to be loved and without any real contributions to the outcome of things as a whole.

[fayefaye]

I thought anne of austria had a little substance, and louise de la valliere too. But you could tell that dumas himself wasn't sure how to portray them, which is why they alternate between femme fatale and weak feminine characters who've been pushed around bt their [later lost] loves.

[dru]

I think part of anne of austria's substance was simply beingnext to the weak king. Lousie just changed so much and I can't stand how she treated Raoul. It seems to be that the men in his stories don't really love the women themselves, instead they idolize them. The women become more fantasy than reality. Do you think Dumas was capable of really loving a woman or was he just idolizing the female form?

[fayefaye]

Just idolizing, I'm sure. He probably just didn't understand females. It's an interesting point you made, seeing as how there WERE women who loved men for who they were. Though I guess Louise IS debatable. 'omg! a KING!!'

[dru]

I am interested in what Dumas inspired movies you have seen (ex. three musketeers, man in the iron mask, count of monte cristo etc.). Please describe the movie and the version and describe what you thought about it.

[seeker]

I should read his books, but I have only seen the movie of the count of monte cristo.

I do love the quote when the main character tells the old man who digs into his cell how many times he has counted the stones on the opposite wall, to which the old man replies

"Ah yes, but have you named them yet?"

:lol:

[dru]

If you were casting a movie about the three musketeers (from The Three Musketeers to The Man In the Iron Mask) who would you cast in the lead roles? Actors can be from any time period.

[tam]

just finished the whole series... never knew there was anything more than the three musketeers.

One thing I wonder ... what is the meaning of d'Artagnans different farewells to Aramis & Athos & Porthos at the close of the book? I've read a couple of translations of them. At first I thought it was only because Athos & Porthos were only dead but I wonder if there's more to it than that. He says to them "till we meet again" but to Aramis "farewell forever". Do you think the implication is that d'Artagnan expects to meet them in an afterlife, but does not expect to see Aramis again. This would make sense in a lot of ways, given Aramis hypocrisy and ultimately his betrayal of Porthos.

One of the things I love about these books is their imperfections. Both d'Artagnan & Aramis use Porthos naivete to their own ends, which although successful makes you very uncomfortable with them both. Athos is too noble to do that, but he gets himself into difficulties (particularly with Louis) that he wouldn't get out of if his friends weren't prepared to use deceit to rescue him - I guess pointing out the impossibility of being perfect all the time.

The first two novels are more entertainment novels, happy neat endings etc. whereas the Vicomte is more of a "grownup" book if you like - in which the worst crises are faced, the decimation of the group of friends and Aramis ultimate betrayal of them.

Their deaths suit them perfectly - Porthos dies exerting all his strength, d'Artagnan dies in battle using all his courage and intelligence & having just achieved ultimate glory & Athos dies nobly at home mourned by everyone who knows him.

I think the point of Raouls death is what Athos says (although Raoul denies it is the case) - that he should have had friends to support him -true friends - and that in those days true friendship no longer exists, only people serving their own interests. (including the Musketeers - except Athos - all the others do things with some personal gain in mind). Athos tried to make Raoul perfect too and that is impossible. I would have liked to see Raoul live and be happy and succesful though, so that the efforts of the friends in achieving their goals in life, Porthos wealth, d'Artagnan's glory, Aramis power & Athos nobility could all have had a purpose in making him, his death kind of makes all their lives seem wasted.

When Phillipe comes out & Louis is in the Bastille I feel totally sorry for Louis and hate Aramis, but when Louis turns around and continues the injustice against Phillipe I detest Louis and wish he'd been left to rot, or great enough to risk the consequences.

A couple of loose ends that annoyed me - whatever happened to de Wardes - you never hear of a punishment for him, and also Planchet & Bazin just kind of disappear. & what does Grimaud do.

[dru]

SPOILERS

I agree that D'artagnan says "farewell forever" because Aramis has changed. He has become like his contemporaries. He is able to survive in the new world where ambition is more imporant than honor. Because the other three remain true to their noble way of life, they pass on to be reunited in the next world.

As great as it may be to think of the Musketeers spirit living on in Raoul rather than him dying, I think he needed to die. Raoul had a noble spirit like Athos. He like, Athos, D'artagnan, and Portos were of a dying breed that placed honor first. I think that Dumas was saying that French society had changed for the worst and each of these noble men (and others like them) no longer had a place.

Any thoughts on Louise?

[dru]

Did anyone notice that Grimaud was quite involved in the begining of the Three Musketeers saga but then sort of disappears in the later stories? It turns out that Dumas used to get paid by the line and used him simply to add a bunch of one word lines with him saying things lie "yes" or "what?" in the midst of a running dialogue. The publishers soon caught on and required a line to at least take up half of the page to be counted. After that it was good bye to Grimaud.

[simon]

I just read a book called the Dumas Club, it's an extremely scolarly detective novel translated into english from spanish. But if you like Dumas this has characters based on those in the three musketeers and theres alot of detective work trying to discover things about him and theres a big conrtoversy over whether or not he wrote all his own works.

[Jack_Aubrey]

I read-and loved-The Three Musketeers. I also own Twenty years after but found the plot very poorly thought out.

[GreenDog]

I have an old book supposedly written by Dumas, but I'm not sure, its very old it has no publishing date, or a publishers name, and the pages are just about to crumble...
Its called "The memoirs of a magician", has anyone read it?

[Stephi]

Hi
I'm a huge Dumas fan, and have read the whole of the Musketeers series, as well as the Valois romances, most of the Marie Antoinette series, and a few others. I just discovered this thread, and thought I'd join in. :D