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Gurrato Alaien

12-11-2005, 03:24 AM

I have never been a Christian nor will I ever become a Christian because of these main reasons.

1- Christianity is man-made religion. it contradicts pure monotheism which all previous prophets taught

2- It is vague when it speaks of a man being God at the same time , and being the son of himself?!

3- it accuses me of being guilty of an alleged sin which I have nothing to do with.. Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.

4- It makes God look so helpless and blood thirsty because He could not forgive Adam & Eve and required the torture humiliation of himself to forgive them ??!! in other words He killed himself to please himself!

5- the Bible is full of contradictions, scientific and historical mistakes which proves it is man made

6- If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?

7. If God had created Adam and Eve to stay in Heavens, was He unable to protect them from Satan? Did He warn them against obeying Satan by telling them the consequences if they did?
The fact is: When God created Adam & Eve, HE put them in Paradise & warned them against obeying Satan, & told them that if they did obey him, they will be kicked out of Paradise.

We know the rest of the story. Of course it was Gods plan all along to have Adam & Eve live here on earth, but He made them go through that experience with Satan as a practical lesson for all of us so that we know what happens to us if we disobey God & obey Satan, unless you think God planned for them to stay in Paradise forever but was unable to protect them from Satan.

8- salvation either wipes out all sins, or it does not.
If the first case is true, then it leads to what we say that Christianity encourages people to do whatever they please.

If the second case is the fact, then there is no need to what Jesus PBUH had gone through.

9. Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity.

10. Christians disregard the laws of the Old Testament, and have made it legal for themselves to do sinful acts such as eating pork, drinking alcohol, and not circumcising their sons.

11. Christians depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship. I regard this as idolatry, and also as disregarding the second of the ten commandments:

"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

12. Most Christians insult other religions/religious leaders such as Muslims. This tells me that they have very little tolerance and believe that they have a monopoly on truth; therefore they are unwilling to consider any other religions' beliefs.

13. Most of the Christians practices in Church and in their homes were invented after the time of Jesus. Almost everything Christians due whether it is standing in church singing songs to hanging crosses on their necks is an innovation.

RobinHood3000

12-11-2005, 08:21 AM

I am no Christian either, but I think you're missing part of the point. I'll start from the bottom:

13. Most of the Christians practices in Church and in their homes were invented after the time of Jesus. Almost everything Christians due whether it is standing in church singing songs to hanging crosses on their necks is an innovation.
Is there something wrong with innovation? If Americans can change their Constitution, then why not Christians for their interpretation of their Holy Text? The texts may be sacred, but why shouldn't the perception of the underlying meaning be flexible?

12. Most Christians insult other religions/religious leaders such as Muslims. This tells me that they have very little tolerance and believe that they have a monopoly on truth; therefore they are unwilling to consider any other religions' beliefs.
This is hardly a solely Christian foible, much less a universal Christian foible. I've met Christians on either end of the spectrum, and the ones I know on the tolerant end are eminently wonderful people.

11. Christians depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically speaking, that wasn't always the case.

9. Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity.
One of the most frequently cited tenets of Christianity is that there are some things about God that cannot be explained. If everything were blatantly obvious, there'd be no cause for faith. As an atheist who occasionally encounters less-than-tolerant Christians, I've seen the use of it in manners all too convenient, but that doesn't necessarily nullify the religious validity of it.

I daresay you may otherwise have valid grievances, but I will leave those for someone more familiar with the subject matter to address.

Scheherazade

12-11-2005, 11:24 AM

Please remember that this part of the Forum is for discussing religion related issues, not for proving the superiority of one particular religion over others. No one person, nation or religion is all good or all bad and we can live in harmony only when we accept this and learn to respect each others' beliefs.

'Live and let live' is a good dictum to keep in mind when religious issues are in question.

bhekti

12-12-2005, 03:02 PM

religions are man-made

Gurrato Alaien

12-13-2005, 01:49 AM

except Islam

greenburke

12-13-2005, 10:18 PM

Islam was started by Mohammed in the 7th century A.D.

RobinHood3000

12-13-2005, 10:26 PM

Hinduism, as far as I can recall, has the distinction of being a major world religion without a pinpointed origin.

bhekti

12-14-2005, 04:13 PM

I have never been a Christian nor will I ever become a Christian....

That's within your liberty.

Christianity is man-made religion. it contradicts pure monotheism which all previous prophets taught

Indeed, to teach Christianity wasn't the object of prophets

It is vague when it speaks of a man being God at the same time , and being the son of himself?!

Is it impossible for God to manifest himself as a man? The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are names to the functional personalities of God.

... Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.

Was it really a problem of eating a fruit? Adam did what was forbidden. And, that is one of a kind with our problem too, isn't it? We do what is forbidden. We compromise and seek justification through rationalization (philosophy), relativization, etc. So, Adam was punished for his own sin, and we are also punished for our own sin. and Adam's sin and ours is one of a kind, the human kind.

It makes God look so helpless and blood thirsty because He could not forgive Adam & Eve and required the torture humiliation of himself to forgive them ??!! in other words He killed himself to please himself!

It takes the gravest compensation for the gravest damage. Man has damaged himself, thus also damaged the holiness of God. No man, being damaged, can restore the situation of himself by his own power. It takes the power of a God.
Because God is just, Man is punished. Man has to die. But God is too much in love with Man, who has to die. So God took the punishment by being the second representative of Man (Adam being the first) and receives the punishment. The punishment is not for Him, but for he and she whom He loves. Unlike Adam, He didn't kill himself by doing what was forbidden for Him to do, but He did what He must do for the sake of the Love He has for Man. That punishment is death. Now, God does not die. He is greater than death and life because He is God Himself. He gave up His life by going down to where death is and by coming back to where life is.

the Bible is full of contradictions, scientific and historical mistakes which proves it is man made

The Bible is full of paradox. It takes more of imagination and "talent" to comprehend it, than of the control of human epistemic discourses (science and history).

If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?

Who says that it is impossible? God works more than we can know.

If God had created Adam and Eve to stay in Heavens, was He unable to protect them from Satan? Did He warn them against obeying Satan by telling them the consequences if they did?
The fact is: When God created Adam & Eve, HE put them in Paradise & warned them against obeying Satan, & told them that if they did obey him, they will be kicked out of Paradise.

God is enough for a reason. When God says "don't do that" or "do that", that is enough for a reason. If God has to tell the "consequences", Man will obey for an egotistic reason.

salvation either wipes out all sins, or it does not.
If the first case is true, then it leads to what we say that Christianity encourages people to do whatever they please.

Salvation in Christ gives people unegotistic reason for doing what is right. Having assured that they are not anymore under the power of sin and death, they can now leave the old way of life which is sinful. Now, that requires a great will power, since the world is not conducive. The Man has to keep on struggling, "rebelling" against his old-self and his old-world.Salvation in Christ does not make a man an automaton.

If there is a man calls himself a Christian but does not live like Christ, he is not a Christian.

Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity.

This is a problem of One and Many. For you, One cannot be Many, and Many cannot be One at the same time.

Howmany kinds of human are there in the world? Answer : One and Many, at the same time. It is One kind of human, when we think of Human Race. It is Many kinds of Humans, when we think of Human Race in terms of personalities.

Christians disregard the laws of the Old Testament, and have made it legal for themselves to do sinful acts such as eating pork, drinking alcohol, and not circumcising their sons.

The Laws of the Old Testament have disregarded Christians.

Peace

LinFreakinRules

12-14-2005, 07:12 PM

Here's the problem I have with all of this. My father killed himself on Thanksgiving day and my sister, being the super christian she is constantly tries to justify it in God's eyes. Even the reverend who spoke at my father's funeral justified my sister's words that "There is no sin that God will not forgive EXCEPT for blasphemy." So I can meet a couple, screw the husband, murder them both and take their belongings for myself, but I can't say God's a big jerk for allowing my father to be in chronic pain for 7 years that led to his suicide? I have a huge problem with that.

greenburke

12-14-2005, 10:44 PM

What do you think, minus your super-christian sister's opinion?

Matilda

12-19-2005, 02:02 PM

RobinHood3000

12-19-2005, 05:54 PM

Laws also bring order and hope to many. Despite my atheistic beliefs, I still think that religion IN GENERAL (very important, that) is a positive influence. The problem lies in the human interpretation of religion, which can shift towards any number of extremes. Is religion flawed? Almost certainly, given how much can be lost in translation. Would the world be better without it? Hard to say, but all things considered, it seems like a purely hypothetical situation, don't you think?

Me09

12-19-2005, 11:47 PM

12. Most Christians insult other religions/religious leaders such as Muslims. This tells me that they have very little tolerance and believe that they have a monopoly on truth; therefore they are unwilling to consider any other religions' beliefs.

Being a liberal Christian, I had to come to terms with this some how. I tried to combine traits of other religions into my own but then I realized: what's the point? Why should I bend over backwards trying to be so "open-minded" when it seems no other religion is trying nearly as hard as mine to do so? I don't see atheists or Hindus trying to be open-minded towards what I believe. Every religion claims the "truth", don't blast Christianity for what everyone else is doing. You think you're open-minded? Maybe open-minded with closed eyes.

Me09

12-20-2005, 12:00 AM

dark_182_88

12-20-2005, 03:29 AM

Guys, I just want to stress on one point. Don't confound between what people have done in the name of religion, and religion itself. The inquisition and the crusades are totaly bad, but it doesn't mean at all that religion required them to do so. They did so out of their beliefs (sometimes political, social, economical, egoistical reasons were behind it), and they thought that they were right, but it doesn't mean that they were doing according to religion. Remember that in christianity, Jesus says that we should turn the other cheek, he doesn't call for an eye for an eye.

Matilda

12-20-2005, 02:06 PM

Sorry, Me09 I think you misunderstod me a little.
This is what I meant: even if Jesus said some good things, this doesn't mean he was the son of god.
You could put it like this, if you exaggerate a little: I like the harry potter books, but that doesn't mean I believe he really exists and that there is a world of wizards.

I think Jesus was interesting as a historical person, but that doesn't mean I wish to worship him.

Me09

12-20-2005, 02:55 PM

That's not what you put, but I understand what you are saying. So he's a madman then?

Diadem

12-20-2005, 09:09 PM

dark_182_88

12-20-2005, 09:46 PM

I said Jesus says that we should turn the other cheek, he doesn't call for an eye for an eye.

Now if you wanna say that Jesus and God are one, or that I believe in christianity then Jesus and God are one, and so on...well that is not the point.

Jesus (on earth) said that. God, whether he and Jesus are one or whatever, said that but not while in Jesus's shape and body.

Diadem

12-21-2005, 06:20 AM

I have never been a Christian nor will I ever become a Christian because of these main reasons.

I am curious. Have you ever felt pressured as though you had to accept Christianity, Biblical scripture, or Jesus Christ? If so, simply take a step back and realize that such a profound change does not come by force, but by free will. If you don't feel as though it is a step you wish to take, then don't take it. It's your life and nobody can make you do anything. Your life.

It took me 24 years to finally accept God as my savior. It has nothing to do with some miraculous life-altering event that happened to me personally. One night, I was reading about Jacob and Esau online, and when I digested the information, it hit me. I had an epiphany. Everything I read explained the world today as we know it. The wars, the conspiracies, the famines, the Holocaust, the genocides, the revolutions, the bondage by the Federal Reserve corporation...everything. Prior to then I was an agnostic who didn't think he needed God or His word to understand it all, but it was the only thing that finally connected all the dots. It was the last piece of the puzzle.

His word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Without the light provided by God, I would have remained in the dark and never seen the last piece of the puzzle.

Do not believe in God because other people do. The Bible says to make yourself a believer on your own accord. You don't even need the Bible to become a believer. Sometimes God works in mysterious ways.

1- Christianity is man-made religion. it contradicts pure monotheism which all previous prophets taught.

You will have to elaborate, if you don't mind, on what you refer to as "pure" monotheism.

For the record, Christianity is a monotheistic religion that recognizes Jesus Christ as its central figure and founder. It is also referred to as an Abrahamic religion. Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions are considered monotheistic.

In regards to your assertion that Christianity is man-made, Constantine I first legalized and then legitimized Christianity by way of the Edict of Milan in 313 and the Council of Nicaea in 325, respectively. However, it was God's word through Jesus His son that constitutes the foundation of Christianity as related by the apostles who transcribed His word to scipture.

If that is what you mean by man-made, then you are correct.

Bibles are man-made. Somebody must print them and operates the presses. I understand how you feel by reading a book tainted by man, but the Bible and His word has survived the test of time through historic translations that still retain the original meaning. That is why historians have existed through all empires in history. While minimal alterations may have occurred from the translation of one language to another, the original meaning remains.

The Nicene Creed (also known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) represents the most widespread Christian statement of faith. It was created by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

The purpose of a Christian creed was to establish conformity of belief, uniquely essential for Christians, and by public professions of the faith, to identify heretics or any disconformity within each community. The Creed is an epitome, not a full definition, of what is required for personal orthodoxy.

It was hoped that by memorizing this summary of the faith, lay people without extensive theological training would still be able to recognize deviations from orthodox Christianity.

Just as one may identify a trend of social change by evaluating a nation's consitutition and its subsequent amendments, a perceptive and knowledgeable reader would also be able to identify a trend of change in Christianity by having an understanding of the Nicene Creed and then the subequent amendments or alterations of Christianity and the Bible.

Note: Catholic, relative to its use in the Nicene Creed, means "Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church", not the Catholic church as we know it today whose prime figure of worship is Mary, Jesus' mother.

The original Nicene Creed translates to the following:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
Who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate, but therein lies some ambiguity to the lay person unfamiliar with the historical context of Jesus' crucifixion. It was Pontius Pilate whom was the Roman Emperor at the time of Jesus' crucifixion; however, Pilate offered two men for release from shackles and imprisonment- Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus of Barabas. The Jews chose Barabas which meant that Jesus of Nazareth was to be crucified. Pontius Pilate subsequently washed his hands of Jesus in front of the crowd and wanted nothing to do with what he considered a grave injustice because he earlier told the Jews that he believed Jesus was not guilty of any civil injustice. Those Jewish people responsible for sentencing Jesus to crucifixion were the Edomites, God's eternal enemies from Esau's lineage. If you understand the relationship between Jacob and Esau, and the representatives of each one's lineage today, you will understand the world as we know it.

2- It is vague when it speaks of a man being God at the same time , and being the son of himself?!

Do you mean vague or simply confusing?

Here's the thread where I explain this:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14036&page=5

3- it accuses me of being guilty of an alleged sin which I have nothing to do with.. Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.

"Accuses" is a harsh word. We are humans; therefore, we are fallible. We all sin; it's an inherent human quality. God knew this so he had already planned Jesus to be born on Earth as His son in order to be our salvation from sin because God would not accept sin otherwise. Being that Jesus was our salvation, we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven as long as we accept Jesus (God) as our savior. I'd say that was a great deal, don't you think? :lol:

I must ask you, how are we being punished? I don't understand. Do you feel that God is punishing you for something? He is not punishing us for anything. We have free will in our dominion on earth. He retains final judgment. What we do in the meantime is our choice. It's out of his hands. He has given us the knowledge and the capacity to accept him as our God and savior and live by His word.

In regards to Deuteronomy 24:16, once again, how are we being punished? Before I write anymore, I'll allow you to express your sentiment further so I may understand.

Diadem

12-21-2005, 06:22 AM

4- It makes God look so helpless and blood thirsty because He could not forgive Adam & Eve and required the torture humiliation of himself to forgive them ??!! in other words He killed himself to please himself!

I could never look at in that light, even now that you presented it in such a manner. If you gave your only begotten son to die on a cross for everyone else's sin, I would hardly consider that a self-serving and pleasing act for any party involved. The pain that Jesus suffered on that cross leads one to the conclusion that it is impossible for any human being to receive any sort of pleasure from such brutality and torment. Crucifixion is a real punishment. It has been done to many people in history during ancient and more modern times especially in war. It is one of the most severe and brutal forms of punishment ever inflicted upon a human being. Just reading the depiction of Jesus' crucifixion would lead any person to tears.

5- the Bible is full of contradictions, scientific and historical mistakes which proves it is man made

There is no denying that it is man-made. Even with the predictable mistranslations, there are only two commandments that you should abide by:

The first of all the commandments is...thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these (Mk. 12:29-31).

The Ten Commandments from the Old Testament all fall under those two New Testament commandments.

6- If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?

No, surely they go to Heaven. God is a merciful God.

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil[/B], they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

7. If God had created Adam and Eve to stay in Heavens, was He unable to protect them from Satan? Did He warn them against obeying Satan by telling them the consequences if they did?

They had free will. He cannot hold our hand forever, otherwise we cannot learn on our own. If you had a child, would you do more harm or more good if he wanted to learn how to ride a bike and you never let him out of your grip to learn on his own? You'd only hinder his progress. He warned Eve not to eat the Forbidden Fruit and she chose to.

8- salvation either wipes out all sins, or it does not.
If the first case is true, then it leads to what we say that Christianity encourages people to do whatever they please.

As another mentioned, faith without works is dead. One who is saved has professed Jesus as their savior. Subsequently, their works will affirm their faith.

You can read this link for more information:
http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss118.html

If the second case is the fact, then there is no need to what Jesus PBUH had gone through.

Jesus did die for all of our sins. That is the Father allowed him to die on the cross for us to achieve salvation as long as we accepted him as our savior.

9. Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity.

I won't debate the supposition. It's one God who has three parts.

I explain it here.
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14036&page=5

10. Christians disregard the laws of the Old Testament, and have made it legal for themselves to do sinful acts such as eating pork, drinking alcohol, and not circumcising their sons.

As another mentioned, it disregarded Christians. That was His word, not ours to decide. But, the Bible still does not condone inebriation. It's considered a sin.

11. Christians depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship. I regard this as idolatry, and also as disregarding the second of the ten commandments:

"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

I agree. I do not worship idols. I believe those that do are not obeying the word of God. Knowing what God has said, you know that those people do not represent Christians who are obeying His word. In other words, to say that you refuse to be a Christian because of the ones whom are in the wrong, well I must inquire why you simply do not choose to follow the ones who obey God's word instead? Follow the person who leads by the good example. Learn what not to do by the examples of the others.

12. Most Christians insult other religions/religious leaders such as Muslims. This tells me that they have very little tolerance and believe that they have a monopoly on truth; therefore they are unwilling to consider any other religions' beliefs.

Well, I can assure you that judgmental, intolerant, and ignorant people come in all shapes, sizes, and creeds. Are there judgmental Muslims? Jews? Hindus? Christians? Absolutely, all of the above. Does that make them all bad? No. Don't allow one bad apple to ruin your impression. I, myself, believe everybody has the right to choose how they wish to live their life. It's nobody else's business but their own. You can be a Satanist, a Muslim, a Jew, and I would love you the same. They're my brothers and sisters. We are all of His creation. It's not my place to judge. Besides, Muslims and Jews worship the same God. That's the important thing. Accept God as your savior, nothing more is asked by Him. When you accept him in your heart, your works will verify your faith.

We should all remember: "He who hath not sinned, cast the first stone."

13. Most of the Christians practices in Church and in their homes were invented after the time of Jesus. Almost everything Christians due whether it is standing in church singing songs to hanging crosses on their necks is an innovation.

Like another stated, what is wrong with innovation? Our United States Constitution was been amended numerous times. Times have changed, but His word has virtually remained the same. The things you mentioned are simply expressions of faith and worship. Are those sins? Absolutely not.

Finally, it's your life. Don't let anyone tell you how to live it. :nod:

Good luck in whatever you choose.

Mililalil XXIV

03-02-2006, 02:01 PM

I have never been a Christian nor will I ever become a Christian because of these main reasons.

1- Christianity is man-made religion. it contradicts pure monotheism which all previous prophets taught

9. Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity.

13. Most of the Christians practices in Church and in their homes were invented after the time of Jesus. Almost everything Christians due whether it is standing in church singing songs to hanging crosses on their necks is an innovation.
How is it that this is not considered intolerant and locked?
I had a post locked with an accusation of insulting. I never even got to my thoughts of 'Allah, but this man blasphemes the THREE PERSONS all Christians have worshipped since the beginning. There is no rule that only one PERSON can possess the SOLE DEITY. That is an inexplicable demand of men, which certain Greek philosophers speculated as well.
Christianity is established on a myriad of Witnesses, not on one man's say. Many highborn pagans, though it meant the risk of being murdered by Roman authorities, despite all their learning, saw Christianity alone as the True Way, though their former religious backgrounds were at odds with it.
Something seems unfair, here. I am not adding to what was locked, just wondering why my thread seemed more than the above to merit the lock and key.

Whifflingpin

03-02-2006, 04:21 PM

In the sentences you quote, Gurrato is rejecting the Christian religion for religious and historical reasons, which is perfectly acceptable in this forum, just as you may advance religious or historical counter-arguments.

Your locked post however included such sentences as “Do you actually expect the man that has caused more bondage and fear than any one else in history, and for whom we actually now face possibilities of a chain of wars, to be praised?”

The "for whom we actually now face possibilities of a chain of wars," part of that sentence is in the realm of current politics, and is therefore not permitted in this forum.

In your post also, you appeared to be directing your polemics at an individual. This is not permitted here either.

So, disagree with Islam if you like, many here have done so. Show if you want or can that Islam spread in its early centuries by fire and the sword. Argue if you like that Allah does not exist, that Mohammed was wrong, or that the Koran is not, in its present form, the true version of Mohammed's message.

But do not discuss Islam in terms of current politics, and do not harangue individuals.

Oh sorry, mods, for not minding my own business :blush:

Theshizznigg

03-04-2006, 02:00 PM

No Christian priest can explain the holy trinity?

Well Here I go.

The Trinity, without added religous dogma, IE Mary, Saints, is a division between three parts of God.

The Father

The Son

The Holy Ghost

These three central powers play an integral role in all of Christianity, and even the world. So lets look at a brief synopsis of the three.

The Holy Ghost:
The Holy Ghost is a branch of God which permeates in nature and all things surrounding it. It is in fact the closest to humans in relationship, because it is the holy spirit which fills a man when he is good and strong in the lord.
It also is used by god as a weapon, and is in all essence, Gods powers in a manifest form.
Therefore the Holy spirit is human ability to tap into Gods powers, and use them for the good of mankind, miracles, healings, and such.
Oftentime if a Church is very open to the lord, people can feel the presence of the holy spirit, feel it flowing through them, and it is the force which makes the universe go round.

The Father:
The father is that personality behind the Holy spirit, He creates, makes, loves and cherishes. He is also a God of absolutes, "I'm am a god of vengeance" and so he is.
He has admitted in the bible, that he plans to bathe this world in fire when the time comes, and with it destroy Satan, his Angels, and all the other souls that rejected him.
He is also a God of great love, and wishes to give all he can in return to those who love him as their creator.

The Son:
Jesus became overly neccesary, when Adam ate the fruit and caused the fall of mankind. Many don't seem to understand that before Jesus, when you died, that was it you were dead, gone, never to return.
Yet God remembers his chosen, and when Jesus came and died, he paid for the sins of Humanity. All that came before him, all that would follow, were given the chance to redeem themselves in the lords eyes.
Jesus was also essential because, God wanted to have a closer relationship with his creations, and to show them the way to salvation.

"All the worlds a stage, you have your lead roles, and supporting roles, and a whole load of extra."
- Word of wisdom.

miss tenderness

03-04-2006, 04:19 PM

Green Lady

03-04-2006, 04:51 PM

I have never been a Christian nor will I ever become a Christian because of these main reasons.

2- It is vague when it speaks of a man being God at the same time , and being the son of himself?!

3- it accuses me of being guilty of an alleged sin which I have nothing to do with.. Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the
forbidden fruit, we didn't. It's his problem, not ours, especially in
light of Deut. 24:16, which says children shall not be punished for the
sins of their fathers.

4- It makes God look so helpless and blood thirsty because He could not forgive Adam & Eve and required the torture humiliation of himself to forgive them ??!! in other words He killed himself to please himself!

5- the Bible is full of contradictions, scientific and historical mistakes which proves it is man made

6- If you must accept Jesus as your Savior in order to be saved (John
14:6), what about the billions of beings that die as fetuses, infants,
and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be
impossible. So they are condemned to hell because of conditions over
which they had no control. Deut. 32:4 says God is just, but where is
the justice?

7. If God had created Adam and Eve to stay in Heavens, was He unable to protect them from Satan? Did He warn them against obeying Satan by telling them the consequences if they did?
The fact is: When God created Adam & Eve, HE put them in Paradise & warned them against obeying Satan, & told them that if they did obey him, they will be kicked out of Paradise.

We know the rest of the story. Of course it was Gods plan all along to have Adam & Eve live here on earth, but He made them go through that experience with Satan as a practical lesson for all of us so that we know what happens to us if we disobey God & obey Satan, unless you think God planned for them to stay in Paradise forever but was unable to protect them from Satan.

8- salvation either wipes out all sins, or it does not.
If the first case is true, then it leads to what we say that Christianity encourages people to do whatever they please.

If the second case is the fact, then there is no need to what Jesus PBUH had gone through.

9. Christians worship more than one God, ie Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Christians say that it is only one God, however even their most knowledgeable priests cannot completely explain the trinity. .

If you ask certain other forms of christianity, you'll get a different answer or explanation to this beliefs. Some don't believe quite the same as what you've put here, like my religion.

10. Christians disregard the laws of the Old Testament, and have made it legal for themselves to do sinful acts such as eating pork, drinking alcohol, and not circumcising their sons..

Again, some religions don't believe this because what they've been taught in the scriptures is that these laws have been fufilled and are no longer needed.

12. Most Christians insult other religions/religious leaders such as Muslims. This tells me that they have very little tolerance and believe that they have a monopoly on truth; therefore they are unwilling to consider any other religions' beliefs.

It's not just Christians that insult, and yes I agree that there's a lot of insults being thrown around but I wouldn't say that it is most. It's just that those are the things you see the most, they tend to sometimes drown out the good.

Mililalil XXIV

03-14-2006, 08:12 AM

I have never been a christian, and the main reason for that isn't that I don't think it's a good religion.(even if I think that as well). It's just that I don't believe in it.
OK, a book was written by a lot of unknown persons thousands of years ago, and I'm supposed to live my life after laws stated in these books? When these laws throughout history repeatedly has led to wars and violence, like the crusades and the inquisition?

I just can't see any good reason for that. Does anyone object?

(don't go all offended now, I'm just wondering, not accusing)
No part of the Bible commands war. There are narrative passages that tell of a present commander in a historical war, but no commandment exists to go to war. No part of the Bible (except for what It says about not turning a blind eye on the oppressed) caused the Crusades. The other side was forcing itself in on Christian countries, so Western Christians felt compelled to go to their rescue!

The idea of inquisition is in Paul's Writings, but he hinted of no violence in carrying out a set of investigative questions. The few generations that those inquisitional enforcements occurred were times of distress for all, when national security was threatened. Desparate police do not all operate alike - nor did the inquisitors.

I started with many similar thoughts at one point in my life, but I couldn't stop at a superficial look at things. Once you look more deeply into a matter, you may feel compelled to strain through all the evidence to a conclusion - after which you leave yourself no more diversions from a clear conviction. The younger one is, the more they may stall behind a wall of questions - but one of the first one must ask himself is this:
do I really want an answer?

For some reason, I might have felt sick over the sudden bestowal of responsibility to before GOD that new discoveries forced upon my conscience, but it is just a fact that new Knowledge eradicates the shelter once afforded by the prior lack of Knowledge. The same may occur in approaching a serious decision of any sort. How much of one's reasons for setting something aside are convictions one feels are serious personal responsibility to conscience?

I do not call into question your sincere disassociation with any possible offenses in the name of Religion - what I merely address is this:
that to not further investigate what puts you at a standstill in deep consideration may be like a growing child feeling unsure of what lies ahead in the next chapter of life, and deciding to stay one age for ever. Every time I have tried that sort of thing, I have been flooded out, and have had to accept that some hilltop in my horizon that I was not feeling ready to travel to and hike over, I simply had to go over in order to find the fulfillment awaiting on the other side.

Mililalil XXIV

03-14-2006, 08:21 AM

Let me clarify something maybe it was not clear enough or it's misunderstood in Gurrato thread. We Muslims believe that there is a real religion from God (Allah) called Christianity. Yes Christianity is a heavenly religion and we believe as well that Allah is the one who sent Prophet Jesus to save people from hell. Now my question is –I already know the answer-what Christianity that we Muslims believe in? Is it that which is practiced now? Is the Bible as pure as the 1st time it was given by God? Here is the point. I respect all religions because I respect the Almighty God, Islam tell us that yes Jesus was a great prophet who honestly delivered God's message. However we do believe that Christianity is changed and being messed with. The Bible that we see now is mixture of God's speech and other human speeches .on the other hand, God sent down Islam to be the correction of all messed up with religions. It's the last version of all heavenly religions. the Almighty God tells us in the Holy Quran that" I sent down the Quran and I'll protect it forever" my translation to the Arabic text, that's why we see the Quran as it is ,with no change at all from its first days until now(1427 years) doesn't this tell u something??
What muslims say Christianity once was is a fiction. The Church has kept better track of Her Faith than any one else has. The Church does not recognize any man yet born as the last Prophet. We still, with the Jews, believe in an increase of the Gift of Prophecy toward the end of this age.
Neither Jew nor Christian can accept any man other than the MESSIAH as the greatest man ever. What ever muslims and mormons make up about the historical Faith of the Church of the LORD JESUS CHRIST, it changes neither laws nor times, nor the fact of the Lives of the Saints, nor the bestowal of the Gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT, nor the Commission of JESUS CHRIST to all Christians to spread the Saving Knowledge of GOD to all in all lands, regardless of what laws still try to obliterate Christianity, whether sharia law, communist rule, or Scandinavian strictures against parents raising their own children away from brothels.

Mililalil XXIV

03-14-2006, 08:35 AM

No Christian priest can explain the holy trinity?

Well Here I go.

The Trinity, without added religous dogma, IE Mary, Saints, is a division between three parts of God.

The Father

The Son

The Holy Ghost

These three central powers play an integral role in all of Christianity, and even the world. So lets look at a brief synopsis of the three.

The Holy Ghost:
The Holy Ghost is a branch of God which permeates in nature and all things surrounding it. It is in fact the closest to humans in relationship, because it is the holy spirit which fills a man when he is good and strong in the lord.
It also is used by god as a weapon, and is in all essence, Gods powers in a manifest form.
Therefore the Holy spirit is human ability to tap into Gods powers, and use them for the good of mankind, miracles, healings, and such.
Oftentime if a Church is very open to the lord, people can feel the presence of the holy spirit, feel it flowing through them, and it is the force which makes the universe go round.

.

First of all, no Catholic nor any other ancient Rite Believer in CHRIST considers any but the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT to be GOD. The quran speaks of those who say there is Mary as part of a worshipped Trinity, but this only shows the belief of a non-ecclesiastical sect called the Collaridians, whom the Catholic Church repudiated as soon as they appeared, near to where Muhammad would one day live. To think this was Christian belief shows mistaken thinking and unfamiliarity with the much greater numbers of Catholics spread out everywhere, as opposed to a small local sect.

Mary being given her due honor is nothing to do with recognizing any one but GOD as GOD. There are Saints, and there is Unity in Spirit and in Truth between all Christians, in Heaven and on earth - in CHRIST there is no separation nor division, and HE has but one Mystical Body (neither all on earth, nor all yet in Heaven).

The HOLY SPIRIT is a distinct PERSON from both the FATHER and the SON. HE has taken on HIMSELF the Divine Redeeming Role of empowering those that fellowship with HIM to live the Christian Life. The one not living by the SPIRIT has cause to repent.

Amra

03-14-2006, 09:45 AM

Amra

03-14-2006, 09:53 AM

I found my answer.....

Bismillah...

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none like unto Him.

woeful painter

03-14-2006, 11:05 AM

what's the point again?

i just live by the 10 commandments of Christianity...yet at least 60% of them. so long as i'm not hurting anyone or messing up anybody's life and making a good descent living for myself and others, i'll consider those as my rules. whether i was raised as a Christian or not i will abide by those beliefs i feel in my heart. i don't have to understand the Bible as a whole, text per text but just the mere fact that we live and should live not only for ourselves but for others as well and try to do good.

as i have observed: atheists, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, etc. all religion followers have something in common...most just wants to create a good happy living for themselves and for others around them. we all like to help don't we? we all try to care, or at least do? we all try our best to be a model citizen do we not? so we're all just trying to lead a good and normal life (as we define it). even many of the atheists i know observe these kinds of principles. you don't have to be a rocket scientist, religious fanatic/extremist and a true devotee to your belief to know basic wrongs and rights such as killing another person, stealing, loving, caring, giving etc. it's embedded in your DNA!

rewrite all laws, make all crimes and even those heinious ones legal. will anyone object? why? is your reason run by faith? politics? or that thing you feel in your heart which is supposed to be the more right one?

i say we all have that itsy bitsy feeling deep inside our heart that tells us our wrongs and rights. we're not that different at all, religously speaking.

Stanislaw

03-14-2006, 02:08 PM

well, even if one does not believe themselves to be realigeous, they follow the most basic of the realigeous doctrine, I think for two reasons:

1. That the culture one grows up in is one that was molded by the realigeous teachings o that early culture, it only becomes natural fro the base notions to be absorbed and become cultural norm.

2. Base realigious doctrine, coincides with what would allow someone to lead a good life, and if everyone mostly follows these principle beliefs, everyone can live in a group, with little major conflict.

woeful painter

03-14-2006, 08:50 PM

Aye, wise captain! Clearly stated! :D

Mililalil XXIV

03-29-2006, 05:29 PM

so confusing..I find myself even tired to begin..... :confused:
son..god...father..spirit...man-made, not man-made, war, no, yes, sometimes..old testament..new testament...do good deeds...don't do them..jesus forgave all sins...ugh! really frustrating....
What's confusing with these is only so apart from a due investigation.

The FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT are GOD. One who for no apparent reason just doesn't want to believe this chooses to find it confusing. What's confusing is the preconcieved notion that GOD can only be one PERSON. If you are told that the ownership of a company is going to meet with you, do you decide how many persons you should expect to meet before meeting them? It is a man-made idea that "one GOD" has to equal "only one PERSON". One Church is many Persons. A GOD and a PERSON are not perfectly the same description, even in the case of one and the same BEING. Back to the ownership example: if only one of three owners of a business makes it to a business meeting, he is in himself what he and the other two are together - the owner. Yet, though fully the owner - even in himself - he is not so independantly of the co-owners. Their authority is inseparable and one.

All of GOD's Scriptures are written directly from the SPIRIT, WHO is GOD HIMSELF. Some portions describe history through GOD's eyes - even truly describing the words with which men lied. Even the parts narrating how Angels delivered Messages were recorded by the SPIRIT of GOD through HIS Writers. The Christian Religion depends on having GOD HIMSELF for our very LIFE. Unlike islam, in which the first adherants were just men gathered around Muahammad that bound themselves to the quran, the first Christians all had to recieve the HOLY SPIRIT and undergo a spiritual rebirth into a new creation in CHRIST. To recieve the NEW WINE of the SPIRIT, CHRIST's Disciples had to become New Wine Skins. None of the pure Religion of CHRIST is man-made.

HE intended to shepherd HIS Flock through the Pope, whom HE makes to do certain things for the feeding of the Flock. The Pope does not take any other Christian's place in communing with GOD. In Communion, in the Mass, the recipient of Communion is united intimately with JESUS our GOD HIMSELF. Through HIM, we are made one Spirit with the TRINITY. GOD, as our SOURCE, becomes the RIGHTEOUSNESS of a true Catholic; that Christian, in turn, becomes the Righteousness of GOD, as HIS Spiritual Child, bearing in him/herself the Fruitage of the HOLY SPIRIT. A Sacrifice isn't a man's to create - but his freely giving it back to GOD is his free and necessary choice to fulfill. The Pope is Chief under CHRIST, not in himself, but in the Office of the HOLY SPIRIT acting over, in, and through him, over the regulation of the Covenant wherein the SACRIFICE of CHRIST is propitiated. Without CHRIST's giving of HIMSELF in this manner, we are destitute of Communion with GOD. The resulting Personal Relationship with GOD rests wholly between the one benefitted by the SACRIFICE of CHRIST and the DIVINE TRINITY. The Pope does not come between me and GOD. The Pope too is fully subject to all aspects of the Covenant. He is only a Steward.

The Old Covenant was like a brace and like training wheels. The New Covenant was the one all Prophecy always pointed towards, and is the Everlasting One.

Unless GOD already had forgiven all of our sins (that is, set aside condemning us), our infinite offenses against THREE INFINITE PERSONS would have given no place even to earnest Repentance. Those that do not repent of evil hang on to what they were given an oppurtunity to let go of for a clean, new start. If this has slipped your mind as a muslim, then you must not think too highly of `Allah, in that you do not think he is infinite, and, thus, that sins against him are infinite. If you think he is infinite, then you have to concede that, if he forgives at all, it is infinite forgiveness. If so, what is so confusing about the true GOD, WHO can infinitely forgive infinite offense, also infinitely humbling HIMSELF before HIS EQUAL, WHO has shared one Glory with HIM from Eternity, in perfect loving Unity without beginning or end? What is so confusing about HIS having, then, to become the MEDIATOR between GOD and man, which requires HIM being both? If you believe the true GOD is infinite, and that to sin against HIM is thus an infinite offense, and, furthermore, that to be forgiven by HIM means HIS Infinite Mercy, how does HIS going this far already exclude the Mission of JESUS - by what other means than GOD HIMSELF could GOD effect such Forgiveness? [To merely hold to a book and a man who recited it does not address the all-important question of such a Reconciliation as infinite guilt demands. Oversimplification is no answer. I find the Catholic Religion and Philosophy perfectly complete, addressing every need of the heart, every practical bridging of sinners back to GOD, and the fullest, direct experience of GOD, for WHOM we exist.]

As for doing good deeds, protestants are literally wrong in saying that we don't have to do them. That is an antichristian idea that crept in with Martin Luther. Some quote a verse written by Paul that says that our good deeds are not the basis of the nature that accomplishes them, that we should boast, then they fail to read a few verses immediately afterward where it says that what we were recreated to be in CHRIST by the Grace of GOD is a new creation made for good works.

Theshizznigg

05-04-2006, 02:05 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how the Mohammedians on this sight are so willing to disprove Christianity.
Are you all really so insecure in your faith, that you must make constant attacks or provocations, put down, and otherwise insult Christians in order to evince your own religion?

Shizz

"Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it."

Gallantry

05-04-2006, 05:52 PM

I think there is an important point which needs to be made concerning salvation and "o I can do whatever I want now". It doesn't work that way, if you are pursuing a relationship with God you don't want to sin. It isn't like Oh, yeah I'm set! Let's go party! Being a Christian and having fellowship with God means keeping God in your mindset which has moral repercussions because you want to do God's will. It isn't a burden and it isn't a free ride.