Always poetry....

[michela]

Ok this is in italian but it could be funny for someone of you to translate it...
the writer is one of my favourite Marina I. Cvetaeva (she's russian anyway)and...here it is

Tu non mi caccerai via in nessun posto:
non si respinge la primavera!
Tu non mi toccherai,nemmeno con un dito:
troppo teneramente io canto verso il sonno.
Tu non mi diffamerai:
il mio nome è acqua per le labbra!
Tu non mi lascerai:
la porta è aperta, e la mia casa è vuota!

[Koa]

Ciao Mich ;),
I love Marina Cvetaeva and Russian poetry...I'd love to translate that into English and put up the Russian text maybe (I'm sure I have read it before in Russian...), I'll do it soon, just not right now...

Who is the Italian translator by the way?

Do you also like Anna Achmatova? She's the most amazing poet ever!

[michela]

Hi koa
well i can't remember the translator at the mopment,but i know that one of the best italian translator from russian is Serena Vitale.She translated also others cvetaeva's works such as Notti fiorentine. Have you ever read it?If not...well you absolutely have to...i promise is perfect,but it's not in russian but in french!

[Virgil]

I'll be interested in the english translation. I can understand about 60% of it in italian. Not enough to catch the humor.

[Koa]

I can't find the Russian version :confused: Can I know which year it is from, or which book??? I wanted to avoid translating from a translation, but I guess I'll do it quickly now and compare with the original when I find it.

From Italian to English, that would be like (excuse any possible bad phrasing):

You're not going to chase me away to any place:
spring can't be rejected!
You won't touch me, not even with a finger:
too tenderly I sing towards sleep.
You won't defame me:
my name is water to the lips!
You won't leave me:
the door is open, and my house is empty.

I actually really wonder why, just without realising, I translated the first line with 'not going to' and the others with 'won't', when in Italian they're all the same kind of future...:rolleyes: Mysteries of when the mind deals with languages, I guess.

I also wonder why it is 'in nessun posto' and not 'in nessun luogo', which sounds more elegant to me...

michela, Notti Fiorentine? Never heard of it... Do you mean she wrote also in French??? I didn't know that, though I know that she knew French (well she lived in Paris didn't she) and German very well.

[michela]

I didn't translated it in english 'cause i think it sounds deepest in italian,do you agree Koa? Even if english is actually more musical than italian...
you may have translated the first line with "goiing to"...'cause it sounds stronger as if it was an order.
Nessun posto and not nessun luogo 'cause Marina Cvetaeva didn't want to be elegant infact she wanted to appear as strong as a man , she was the poet of the everyday life and not the one of he "contemplation"and "posto" sounds as something of real...of touchble,you know i mean?Anyway this is just my opinion,but i 've loved that translation very much.
Koa,yes she wrote perfectly in french and 'notti fiorentine' had been definitely created in french,not in russian.You have to buy that book the edition i've got has been translated by Serena Vitale but i can't actually remember from who was edited.
yes she lived in Paris 'cause if i'm not wrong she had to run away from Russia during the battles between Bolshevichi and menshevichi(i don't know how they're called in english)she lived in a desperate pooerty till her suicide,did she?
Koa promise you'll search for 'notti fiorentine'you can't miss such master piece.

[Koa]

About "luogo" and "posto", it all depends on what SHE wrote, not the translator...(and this is why I am looking for the original). And maybe yes, the Italian sounds a bit deeper but maybe it's just because we feel it deeper because we are natives, or maybe because Italian tends to have longer words and heavier structures...

Yes she emigrated and lived in Prague, Paris and I think Berlin or somewhere in Germany...but she returned to Russia before committing suicide. In Moscow last summer I visited the house where she had lived for a while, I think before emigration.

Oh I read a wonderful book, in Italian it was called "Indizi segreti", it's a kind of diary she wrote, look for it Michela, you'll enjoy it!

[Virgil]

Even if english is actually more musical than italian...


English more musical than italian? Are you crazy? There is no language more musical than italian. Why do you think that 80% of all opera is in italian? Sorry, Michela, I can't disagree with you more here.

[Koa]

Many times I've heard people saying that Italians speak like they were singing (hm, I dont like to use 'we')... I'd love to know how it feels to hear Italian spoken when you don't know it :confused:

English to me often sounds more direct, quicker, and possibly more rhytmical in a way, because the words are often shorter and that it make it more 'dry'.

[Virgil]

Italian sounds beautiful to non speakers. I happen to think that english is the most flexible, creative language. A skilled english poet can make the language very rhythmic, much more so than German or French. But the average Italian, even a blue collar working type, makes the language sound so melodic by just talking. It's in the vowels. (Side note: Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones, when asked what is the secret to a great song, he says it's in the vowels.) I'm not an expert in Italian literature, but I think it has hurt it's literature because its language is so easily musical. It takes so much more to strain the language into poeticism and it's so easy to be happy with what comes out initially. I could be wrong here.

[Koa]

The vowels??? I don't like the vowels. I really don't like words that have two (or more) vowels near, just as in Koa, and I'm a big fan of Slavic languages because of their groups of consonants.

Italian literature is just great, anyway. You can make great concepts with appropriate words, and it's not hard to create allitterations... the regularity of the verb forms can provide rhymes (well that's normal, but in English you only have -ed that can rhyme, while we have much more flexion, that is many more endings...)

I'm still looking for the Cvetaeva original btw... Russian poetry loses a lot in translation.

[Virgil]

The vowels??? I don't like the vowels. I really don't like words that have two (or more) vowels near, just as in Koa,

LOL. Are you pulling my leg? And just for your own knowledge, when two or more vowels are near, it's called a liquifaction, like in Koa. Liquid because it flows. Just thought I'd add that little bit of semi-meaningless information.

[Riesa]

And just for your own knowledge, when two or more vowels are near, it's called a liquifaction, like in Koa. Liquid because it flows. Just thought I'd add that little bit of semi-meaningless information.

I like finding out little bits of info like that, I've probably read it or heard it before but it just didn't stick...now I'll never forget it. Got any more semi-meaningless information one liners?

[Koa]

LOL. Are you pulling my leg? And just for your own knowledge, when two or more vowels are near, it's called a liquifaction, like in Koa. Liquid because it flows. Just thought I'd add that little bit of semi-meaningless information.


I didn't know that. It's called dittongo in Italian (iato when they are 3...or more, I think...), and now that I think about it I knew the word diphtong for it in English...it must be a linguistics term.
I don't find it flows... to me it ...uhm....it enlarges itself, it expands. Aiuole (italian word that contains all the vowels)...bleah :sick: I prefer to twist my tongue with consonants....CVetaeva...hm lovely...(in English transliteration it's usually spelt as Tsvetaeva)...

[Virgil]

Diphthong is when to vowel letters come together to make one sound, like the "ai" in haiku. The finer points of english speech pronounciation may refer to a glide between some diphthongs. Liquifaction is a term more from poetry while diphthong is from speech. Were you serious about vowels? I've never heard anyone who didn't like vowels.

[Koa]

Well I am serious... I prefer consonants...
How is 'ai' in "haiku" one sound? I suppose you know Italian pronounciation, maybe that's why for me vowels don't sound like flowing, I prononuce them all clearly...(but not as much as Finnish LOL)

[Virgil]

Well I am serious... I prefer consonants...
How is 'ai' in "haiku" one sound? I suppose you know Italian pronounciation, maybe that's why for me vowels don't sound like flowing, I prononuce them all clearly...(but not as much as Finnish LOL)

I'm not sure how you're pronoucing haiku, but the "ai" is one sound rhyming with 'hi". Ok, you prefer consonants. Your choices in the languages you have studied prove it. Interesting.

[Koa]

Yes so Haiku is always Haiku...

Oh yes, try to prononuce lovely words like UPRAZHNENIE, where ZH sounds like French J (like Je t'aime)...that ZH-N group is wonderful to me.
Or NRAVITSJA, where TS is like...uhm...oh like in Tsvetaeva/Cvetaeva, and JA is just A... mmm ;) ;) ;) ;D :banana:

PS Virgil, are you always online? ;) You keep responding just minutes after I posted so so I keep responding again so we might go on for ages before logging off ;)

[Virgil]

Yes so Haiku is always Haiku...

Oh yes, try to prononuce lovely words like UPRAZHNENIE, where ZH sounds like French J (like Je t'aime)...that ZH-N group is wonderful to me.
Or NRAVITSJA, where TS is like...uhm...oh like in Tsvetaeva/Cvetaeva, and JA is just A... mmm ;) ;) ;) ;D :banana:

PS Virgil, are you always online? ;) You keep responding just minutes after I posted so so I keep responding again so we might go on for ages before logging off ;)

Actually I'm killing time waitng for my moterh to call. I have to take her out. I still have Christmas shopping to finish, and she's taking her sweat time. I'm beginning to get ticked off at her.

I couldn't even begin to pronounce those words above.

[Koa]

Eeheh...I don't do Xmas presents, my mum decided we don't do them, so I hardly ever care, I just buy something to my friends if I feel like it, but not like useless things just to buy a present at any cost. And I ignore Xmas :D Yay.
And I'm off now ;)

Do svidanija ;) (hmm... SVidanija...);)

[lovely_girl]

Hi,
it's sound nice even I didn't understand it :)