What do Muslims think about Jesus?

[Gurrato Alaien]

What do Muslims think about Jesus?


Muslims love and respect Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of God's prophets and messengers to humankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as "Jesus," but always adds the phrase "may the peace and blessing of God be upon him." The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth, and a special chapter of the Qur'an is entitled "Mary." The Qur'an describes the Annunciation as follows:

"The Angels said, 'O Mary! God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above all the women of all nations…'

'O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people in infancy and in old age, and shall be of the righteous.'

She said: ' O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: 'Even so; God creates what he wills. When He decrees a thing, he says to it, "Be!" and it is."' (Qur'an 3:42, 45-7)

Just as God created Adam without a mother or a father, He caused Jesus to be conceived without a father:

"Truly the example of Jesus in relation to God is as the example of Adam. He created him from dust and then said to him, "Be!" and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)

During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The Qur'an tells us that he said: "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, a figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave." (Qur'an 3:49)

Jesus, like Muhammad, came to confirm and renew the basic doctrine of the belief in One God brought by earlier prophets. In the Qur'an, Jesus is reported as saying that he came: "To attest the Torah that was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so be conscious of God and obey me." (Qur'an 3:50)

The Prophet Muhammad said: "Whoever believes that there is no deity except God, alone without partner, that Muhammad is his messenger, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God; His word which he bestowed on Mary and a spirit proceeding from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven."

Peace

[miss tenderness]

thank u for the post and i guess that lover of Jesus ,a member here, has approached the same topic in a previous thread.
May our God guides us to the rite path

[prince]

oK , Why you muslim ?

[basil abdullah]

Mohammad is last prophet of Allah. He is the most important prophet in Islam, *Mohammad is the one who actually started Islam and recieved revelations from the angel gabreel*. Jesus is still considered a prophet but he is not a major one, but all muslims must believe Jesus was still a prophet of Allah. No muslim can believe Jesus was the greatest prophet of Allah. Have you even read the Qur'an?

[dark_182_88]

Ok...however, even after reading the Qur'an, Jesus seems to be more powerful and divine than Mohammed...he heals the sick, gives life to the dead (gets them back to life), he's born of a virgin birth, prophecies of his birth existed, Jesus was sinless.

Muhammad was full of sins, he was an idolater, he prayed and worshipped stones and gods, he killed hundreds of people (with his army), and so on...

[Gurrato Alaien]

Ok...however, even after reading the Qur'an, Jesus seems to be more powerful and divine than Mohammed...he heals the sick, gives life to the dead (gets them back to life), he's born of a virgin birth, prophecies of his birth existed, Jesus was sinless.

Muhammad was full of sins, he was an idolater, he prayed and worshipped stones and gods, he killed hundreds of people (with his army), and so on...

I don't know why you insist on slander what Quran said about Jesus

Quran clearly declared that Jesus was no more than prophet. read:

[4:171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

[miss tenderness]

I am Muslim ,praise to Allah alone,the most Gracious,the most Merciful

[miss tenderness]

r u Price?

[dark_182_88]

I don't know why you insist on slander what Quran said about Jesus

Quran clearly declared that Jesus was no more than prophet. read:

[4:171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

You didnt answer what I said. According to what's written in the Qur'an, it clearly shows that Jesus (lets not say is the Son of God) was more divine or atleast more powerful than Muhammad.

Jesus seems to be more powerful and divine than Mohammed...he heals the sick, gives life to the dead (gets them back to life), he's born of a virgin birth, prophecies of his birth existed, Jesus was sinless.

Muhammad was full of sins, he was an idolater, he prayed and worshipped stones and gods, he killed hundreds of people (with his army), and so on...

And that is according to the Qur'an not my own.

As for your quote : " ...Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: ... "

May I just say that, first, the translation is wrong since it said say not "three" not trinity. And that brings us to a big mistake, which is that in the Qur'an it is said that christians believe in three gods, which is wrong. As well, the "trinity" in the Qur'an is referred to as Mary, Jesus and the holy spirit (which is totaly wrong)

[miss tenderness]

hey man have u lost ur mind?told u dark dnt ever talk thigs u dnt knw about,plz
the Messiah was given such miracles by the grace of God,prophet Mohemmed had some of miracles as well u can search that coz it s gonna be long on,however the most amazing miracle is the Book Quran,its the words of God Allah,Allah says that i sent it down and will never allow any changes to my words from whomever be-my translation to the arabic text-and since our prophet time the Quran is the same,no even single word is beig changed!! HOW??? ask ur self while the Bible is really being messed with,many things were added by monks!!

NOw the most imporatnt point::::::::::
how can u say he was idolater.Thats really show ur ignorance,what a real shame man .talking about things u dnt knw about.Prophet mohemmad never never bow his head to any stones as u said,we know this 4 sure ,his folk were really wondering why he doesnt do like him ,in all his life he was nt able to be like his ppl ,to worship what they worship.He used to go to a far away mountin to meditate the universe.He never never worship any one but Allah,just search for his story an see that.

[Gurrato Alaien]

You didnt answer what I said. According to what's written in the Qur'an, it clearly shows that Jesus (lets not say is the Son of God) was more divine or atleast more powerful than Muhammad.

Jesus seems to be more powerful and divine than Mohammed...he heals the sick, gives life to the dead (gets them back to life), he's born of a virgin birth, prophecies of his birth existed, Jesus was sinless.

Muhammad was full of sins, he was an idolater, he prayed and worshipped stones and gods, he killed hundreds of people (with his army), and so on...

And that is according to the Qur'an not my own.

As for your quote : " ...Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: ... "

May I just say that, first, the translation is wrong since it said say not "three" not trinity. And that brings us to a big mistake, which is that in the Qur'an it is said that christians believe in three gods, which is wrong. As well, the "trinity" in the Qur'an is referred to as Mary, Jesus and the holy spirit (which is totaly wrong)

You just post lies and slanders about Islam, without any knowledge, even in you own religion, you don’t know that some Christian’s denominations believe in Mary the mother as God.

[dark_182_88]

hey man have u lost ur mind?told u dark dnt ever talk thigs u dnt knw about,plz
the Messiah was given such miracles by the grace of God,prophet Mohemmed had some of miracles as well u can search that coz it s gonna be long on,however the most amazing miracle is the Book Quran,its the words of God Allah,Allah says that i sent it down and will never allow any changes to my words from whomever be-my translation to the arabic text-and since our prophet time the Quran is the same,no even single word is beig changed!! HOW??? ask ur self while the Bible is really being messed with,many things were added by monks!!

NOw the most imporatnt point::::::::::
how can u say he was idolater.Thats really show ur ignorance,what a real shame man .talking about things u dnt knw about.Prophet mohemmad never never bow his head to any stones as u said,we know this 4 sure ,his folk were really wondering why he doesnt do like him ,in all his life he was nt able to be like his ppl ,to worship what they worship.He used to go to a far away mountin to meditate the universe.He never never worship any one but Allah,just search for his story an see that.

I dont care if the Bible is really corrupt or not. How naive are you to say oh yeh the Qur'an cant be corrupted because Allah said so. I mean, the oldest version of the Qur'an is said to date at about 800 A.D, about 150 years after Muhammad died. As well as, the accents in the arabic language such as the "kasra", "fatha", "damma", "hamza" and so on didn't exist at the time of Muhammad, so the writtings didnt contain accents because they weren't introduced yet in the arabic language. It was way later till the arabic language was arranged, by the help of the aramaic language. Therefore, yes there is a big possibility that the Qur'an is corrupt.

As for Muhammad not being an idolater, how gullible some people are.

I was told that the apostle of Allah said, as he was talking about Zayd son of 'Amr son of Nufayl, 'He was the first to upbraid me for idolatry and forbade me to worship idols. I had come from al-Ta'if along with Zayd son of Haritha when we passed Zayd son of 'Amr who was in the highland of Mecca. Quraysh had made a public example of him for abandoning his religion, so that he went out from their midst. I sat down with him. I had a bag containing meat which we had sacrificed to our idols -- Zayd b. Haritha was carrying it -- and I offered it to Zayd b. 'Amir -- I was but a lad at the time -- and I said, "Eat some of this food, my uncle." He replied, "Surely it is part of those sacrifices of theirs which they offer to their idols?" When I said that it was, he said, "Nephew mine, if you were to ask the daughters of 'Abd al-Muttalib they would tell you that I never eat of these sacrifices, and I have no desire to do so." Then he upbraided me for idolatory and spoke disparagingly of those who worship idols and sacrifice to them, and said, "They are worthless: they can neither harm nor profit anyone," or words to that effect.' The apostle added, ' [Ibn Ishaq]

Muhammad's father's name is Abdullah (Abd Allah , Slave of Allah). His father was not monotheistic, which clearly shows that the god Allah existed before Islam, as he was the top chief among the 365 gods worshipped in Ka'ba. This also clearly shows that Allah was a pagan god. Muhammad was not born monotheistic, and it is until later that he became monotheistic after he got his "revelations". Before that, if he wasn't monotheistic, then what was he if islam was not created yet? He was an idolater, as everybody knows except muslim apologists who dont accept it. If he wasn't then you prove me wrong!

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Allah's Apostle started receiving the Divine Inspiration at the age of forty. Then he stayed in Mecca for thirteen years, receiving the Divine Revelation. Then he was ordered to migrate and he lived as an Emigrant for ten years and then died at the age of sixty-three (years). (Sahih Bukhari 5.242)

What was he before he got his "inspiration"? An aetheist or a monotheistic? Coz if he was none of the two before that it means that he was a polytheistic pagan.

[dark_182_88]

You just post lies and slanders about Islam, without any knowledge, even in you own religion, you don’t know that some Christian’s denominations believe in Mary the mother as God.

Who told u that im a christian? Atleast who told you that I follow christianity? Anyways I do not care about other christian demoninations.

If you cant refute what I'm saying, it is better for you not to post at all. Prove me wrong if im posting lies

[miss tenderness]

dark i just cant carry on correcting ur ignorance about Prophet Mohemmad an his life,an plz if u wanna say something express it in a brief way coz its kinda blurry to read a long post-we have other works to do too :nod:

[dark_182_88]

dark i just cant carry on correcting ur ignorance about Prophet Mohemmad an his life,an plz if u wanna say something express it in a brief way coz its kinda blurry to read a long post-we have other works to do too :nod:

Miss tenderness, I'm sorry if you have felt offended in any way.

The mere fact that you cannot refute what I have said brings me to the conclusion that you yourself do not truly know your religion. Had you been able to refute any of what I said (by the way most of what I said was copy ayyar or quotes from ahadith and base my arguments on them) and had I not been able to reply back, I would have bowed down and said that I am truly ignorant or that I am wrong. However, you still haven't been able (you and all others) to refute what I have said or to prove me wrong :)

Take care

[Stanislaw]

You just post lies and slanders about Islam, without any knowledge, even in you own religion, you don’t know that some Christian’s denominations believe in Mary the mother as God.

Mary is the mother of God, and many christians believe this. Jesus is God, and is the son of God. Mary is his mother, she gave birth to Jesus. And since Jesus is part of the trinity, God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all seperate but all one entity know as God at the same time. Mary is the mother of God, and is a creation of God. She is Holy but not divine.

I can't comment on the comments about Islam, for I know not about the teachings of Islam. I was merely clarifying a fact about christianity.

God be with you.

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo alaikom wa rahmato ALLAH oa barakatehi

BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM

When i entered and read wht is written i said that some one in this room is lost and paste words and talk but WITHOUT PROOF, and only form scentences and say deny it, will MR.Dark do u have proof to wht u said?
first lets see whr Mr.dark wrote about Jesus in Holy Quran, u said JESUS IN HOLY QURAN SEEM MORE POWERFULL AND DIVINE, so i ask him so nicely hi proof , and where its said he is more divine, not good to throw words without proof, i saw that u wrote he is more powerfull coz he healed sick ppl and coz he gave life to died, hmm interesting, well Mr.Dark i say no he didnt. My question did he do them by him self or GOD made them for him? i wait ur answer and please the answer will be yes by him self , or no by GOD , and then we will see if ur answer is right or wrong from Holy Quran and bible. See Mr.dark in forums u have to learn to back up ur claims with proofs, u cant sit and throw words and say then respond..
My next point is that u dont speak arabic and know nothing about arabic and then say Fatha thama kasra hamza, i dont know if i laugh or cry,, how u say these r accents that didnt exist in arabic, show me its written they r accents, show me that they were putten years after Muhmmad pbuh died, tell wht r they , how u post thing u dont know, i speak arabic and know my language well, Hamza and thama and kasra and fatha r not accents Mr.dark they r like fatha=a thamma=o kasra=e but not with long spell as in english and in arabic all grammer base on them and understanding words and chainging meaning of words, and hamza does not exist in english.
So u proove that Holy Quran was chainged with things u dont know and wht u wrote about them show u know nothing (scuse me for this language but its true) and even didnt give ur proof from book or something, and they existed always in arabic language before Muhammad pbuh come, they r basic of grammer Mr.Dark.
My Next point is u said prophet Muhmmad pbuh worshiped stones and said wht he did before he reach 40 years, and i say to u wht jesus was before he get 30 years (or should say ABOUT 30 years as written in bible, i dont know if its person words or God's word to say ABOUT 30), ur conclusion does not exist, if he didnt get something from ALLAH before 40 years doesnt mean he worshiped stones, hope to see ur proof that he worshiped stones with book and page, beside do u believe that Salmon pbuh is prophet or not, and did he get something from ALLAH. I saw u mentioned story from book of Ibn Ishaq, i hope u give me the page number so i take look at it, as it begin with scentence I WAS TOLD, strange begin, as we Muslims must know who narrated the story untle it reached us or Ibn Ishaq in the book and then we can accept the story or deny it according to ppl who narraited it, if they have the conditions that is accepted by muslims or not, its called if u dont know science of Hadeeth, so please give me the page so i see who narraited it, as Ibn Ishaq i think he dont mention such story, and even if he mention we study his saying according to hadeeth conditions.
So i hope u respond the questions above, and not only cut and paste and say things without proof,,,
By the way also from where u got the explaining that trinity in Holy Quran mean Meryam and Jesus and hloy spirit pbu them, proof from Holy Quran explaining books, and u said prophet Muhmmad pbuh was full of sins , again i ask u proofs, from where , how did u know , and must be from accepted history book of muslims, not wht u see in fox channel by drunk ppl.
Be more mature and discuss..By the way u said u dont care if bible is corrupted, i think u r christian by ur way of talk, if ALLAH want i will post subject about Bible, my words will be with poorfs from ur bible for sure,,i dont know if u will defend it, but only to make u know.
WAITING UR PROOFS ON UR WORDS.

Alhamdo LILLAH
Assalamo alaikom wa rahmato ALLAH wa barakatihi

[kilted exile]

Mary is the mother of God, and is a creation of God. She is Holy but not divine.


It should be remembered that the idea of Mary herself being holy is predominately a catholic belief. All christians believe that Mary is the mother of god, however in my Hellfire & Brimstone West of Scotland presbyterian upbringing the idea of mary being holy/prayed to was berated to the extreme (in fact I know many protestants who have more of an issue with the catholic perception of jesus, than they do with other religions - and vice versa of course) It was this hatred that led me away when I was about 15, and I aint stepped foot in any church since.

[dark_182_88]

When i entered and read wht is written i said that some one in this room is lost and paste words and talk but WITHOUT PROOF, and only form scentences and say deny it, will MR.Dark do u have proof to wht u said?

No, I dont have any proof. However almost all of what I post is taken from the hadiths of Bukhari or Muslim, from Ibn Ishaq, from At-tabari, and the Qur'an. Don't believe me, look back and see for yourself (not just this thread).


first lets see whr Mr.dark wrote about Jesus in Holy Quran, u said JESUS IN HOLY QURAN SEEM MORE POWERFULL AND DIVINE, so i ask him so nicely hi proof , and where its said he is more divine, not good to throw words without proof, i saw that u wrote he is more powerfull coz he healed sick ppl and coz he gave life to died, hmm interesting, well Mr.Dark i say no he didnt.

Dude, did you actualy read what I've written? Dude, that is not a way of refuting, that is just slandering without giving any proofs. Try refuting all what I've said before, refuting the quotes and so on, instead of just saying no its not true and give me proofs (when I've written it over and over and still people can't seem to refute it)


My question did he do them by him self or GOD made them for him? i wait ur answer and please the answer will be yes by him self , or no by GOD , and then we will see if ur answer is right or wrong from Holy Quran and bible. See Mr.dark in forums u have to learn to back up ur claims with proofs, u cant sit and throw words and say then respond..

Again, I'm the one posting quotes and basing my arguments upon'em, not the other way around. All what you do in this post is say give me proofs, while you do not bother to refute what's already been said (which is the proof, duh). By God or not by God, his works are greater than those of Muhammad, compared in any way, while the messengers of God should be equal since you consider him to be a prophet(that is if they really are messengers and prophets)


My next point is that u dont speak arabic and know nothing about arabic and then say Fatha thama kasra hamza, i dont know if i laugh or cry,, how u say these r accents that didnt exist in arabic, show me its written they r accents, show me that they were putten years after Muhmmad pbuh died, tell wht r they , how u post thing u dont know, i speak arabic and know my language well, Hamza and thama and kasra and fatha r not accents Mr.dark they r like fatha=a thamma=o kasra=e but not with long spell as in english and in arabic all grammer base on them and understanding words and chainging meaning of words, and hamza does not exist in english.
So u proove that Holy Quran was chainged with things u dont know and wht u wrote about them show u know nothing (scuse me for this language but its true) and even didnt give ur proof from book or something, and they existed always in arabic language before Muhammad pbuh come, they r basic of grammer Mr.Dark.

Lol that was really funny, no that was hilarious dude. Look, I've studied arabic at school and I've studied arab literature and how it has evolved from the jahiliya till today, and we've studied the different time frames of the arabic language evolution and I know damn well what I'm talking about. Why don't you actualy try prooving something instead of just saying its not true (It doesnt really add up to your crediblity you know that?)?

If you don't consider the damma, fat7a, kasra as accents, then what do you consider them? They are not alphabets, since they are put on an alphabet. For example, when you write the word muslim in arabic, its got 4 alphabets. "M", "C", "L", "M". I'm writing them in english coz my keyboard doesnt have arabic. It takes 4 alphabets, the one that I've written above, plus 2 accents (damma on the first "M", kasra on the "L") as well as the "skoun" on the "C" and last "M". Those are accents, and not alphabets. Proof, you can say muslam by writing the same alphabets but putting a fatha on the "L" instead of a kasra. Therefore those are accents. And yes, they didn't exist at the time, but were borrowed from the aramaic language later on. You prove me wrong.


My Next point is u said prophet Muhmmad pbuh worshiped stones and said wht he did before he reach 40 years, and i say to u wht jesus was before he get 30 years (or should say ABOUT 30 years as written in bible, i dont know if its person words or God's word to say ABOUT 30), ur conclusion does not exist, if he didnt get something from ALLAH before 40 years doesnt mean he worshiped stones, hope to see ur proof that he worshiped stones with book and page, beside do u believe that Salmon pbuh is prophet or not, and did he get something from ALLAH.

Big difference, which is, Jesus was monotheist by birth (jewish). Muhammad was neither jewish nor christian by birth, therefore polytheist, and got the "revelations" at the age of 40, and at about that time he became monotheist. Before that, there's absolutely no proof that he was monotheist, neither is there a reason for it. Plus all the quotes that I gave you (from muslims) plus the quotes that I can give you from non-muslim scholars who are as credible and even more than other muslim scholars since they're much more objective. Give me proof that he wasn't polytheist and that he was monotheist since he was born. If you can't do that, then you have just proven yourself that Muhammad is sinful, which automaticaly makes him not a prophet, according to Islam ofcourse.


I saw u mentioned story from book of Ibn Ishaq, i hope u give me the page number so i take look at it, as it begin with scentence I WAS TOLD, strange begin, as we Muslims must know who narrated the story untle it reached us or Ibn Ishaq in the book and then we can accept the story or deny it according to ppl who narraited it, if they have the conditions that is accepted by muslims or not, its called if u dont know science of Hadeeth, so please give me the page so i see who narraited it, as Ibn Ishaq i think he dont mention such story, and even if he mention we study his saying according to hadeeth conditions.

Its from Sirat Rasullalah, the book of Ibn Ishaq, just look for it. As for the science of the hadeeth, please spare me dude. As for the science of the hadiths, without getting into that much, how come there were about 600,000 hadiths all claiming to be authentic and true? And from all the hadeeths found, only about 1% were found to be credible (sahih). So, if only 1% were found to be credible, and that is by men about 200yrs later (such as Bukhari), then how credible are the hadiths? Anyways, as I said, let's not get into the "science of hadeeth", not too credible my friend.


So i hope u respond the questions above, and not only cut and paste and say things without proof,,,

Why, did you present any proofs? Lol


By the way also from where u got the explaining that trinity in Holy Quran mean Meryam and Jesus and hloy spirit pbu them, proof from Holy Quran explaining books, and u said prophet Muhmmad pbuh was full of sins , again i ask u proofs, from where , how did u know , and must be from accepted history book of muslims, not wht u see in fox channel by drunk ppl.

Dude, everybody admits that muslims think that Mary was part of the trinity, and it was even affirmed by some members here. Anyways, a misconception also, in the Qur'an its written "say not three", which is actualy translated in english to "say not trinity", which shows the ignorance which says that the trinity is believing in three gods.

As for me saying Muhammad has commited sins, well it can be summarized and evaluated by the following : Polygamy and having more than 4 wives (which is condemned in the Qur'an), being an idolater and a polytheist before he got his "revelations" and all that (which also is said to be a sin to worship idols), and killing soo many people and launching wars (which aren't all in self-defense but many are just ruthless actions).

Now please don't tell me give me proofs, because if you want to prove me wrong you give me proofs that prove and say the opposite.


Be more mature and discuss..By the way u said u dont care if bible is corrupted, i think u r christian by ur way of talk, if ALLAH want i will post subject about Bible, my words will be with poorfs from ur bible for sure,,i dont know if u will defend it, but only to make u know.
WAITING UR PROOFS ON UR WORDS.

If Allah wants, loll, very funny. Dude, answer me those questions. Why did God allow the Torah and the Bible to become corrupted, but didn't allow the Qur'an to be so (although it was written more than 150yrs later). As well, the difference is that the Bible isn't said to be the exact words of god and "mounzal" (brought down to earth by god himself). The bible is said to be the work of man (not god) but by the holy spirit. Therefore, the Qur'an cannot be corrupt and cannot have contradictions and so on...while the Bible can for example. Anyways who said im a christian, im an agnostic but im pro-christian lol


Finaly, please, dont say no this is not true give me proofs, but try giving proofs yourself and refuting what I already said.

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo alaikom

BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM

Scuse me for wht i will write Dark, but u r so funny, and u have no dialogue experince. If u watch ppl wht he wrote at the end of his message, he wrote that I MUST RESPOND WHT HE PASTED BY PROOFS, NOT ONLY SAYING NO THIS IS NOT TRUE. So funny scentence,,u saw ppl i asked him proof for wht he say, coz HERE ITS FORUM and every thing we claim must be by proof, and i asked him the proof for wht he say, but he said i dont have to say proofs, and said to me that i must say proofs to deny wht he said, so funny and so strange his way of talking and presenting claim and words. Well Drak then a baby can sit and paste things and write pages of claims without proof but only putting words and forming scentences.
U said that there is claims u brought them from Bukhari book and others, can u please paste them , at least the number of hadeeth, or the page. See brothers here i cant ut proof that this hadeeth that he talk about doesnt exist, all i can say that i doesnt exist, but the one who say i have these things from ur books, then he must show us, other wise WE CAN CALL HIM LIER. I dont know y u escape dark from pasting ur proofs from Bukhari or any another book ( if u have them really, if u dont then u r leir, scuse me for this word but its fact, and its true only when a condition is right, which is they really exist).
Then i saw that he studied Arabic, good dark,, but be carefull ppl for wht he say,, coz fatha and thamma and kasra and hamza , arab didnt wrote them in books, but when they talk they use it as without them the arabic language dont exist,, i liked ur example about word M S L M, and i dont know how they spelled it at time of Muhammad pbuh and before him if thamma and fatha and kasra didnt exist,,perhaps dark can send us a vocal registration to show us how is was spelled by the mouth. ( i am saying try to spell them without using any o or y or a or i or e or u or w letters,, it will be same in arabic if we dont use fatha tnd these things).
I think u wasnt paying attention in arabic lessons, coz arabic always spelled these things, but they didnt wrote them in books coz they know the langugae,they were the masteres of langugae, and its thier language, but when non arabs started to inter islam, the arab scholar of langugae decided to write them in books so the non arabs can read right,, and infact ppl today most of the arabic books if u open them u wont see fatha thamma and kasra and hamza written above or under words, coz we arabs when we read we know wht is this word and how must be spelled, u can check out, but when non arabs learn arabic the books they use r written with thamma and kisra and these things,,so there is nothing called they didn exist , and he claimed that we got them from aramic language, and i say show me ur proof , and ll wht i can say that its not true, as its impossible to talk arabic without them, it will be like english without a or e or other vocal letters,, waiting for ur proofs.
My next point is that u claimed that we muslims say that trinity mentioned in Holy Quran is Meryam and Jesus, well i asked u proof and u sayed that some members here in forum agreed with u ( i admire alot that u finally brought proof, even i dont know if we can call it proof) and i dont know if these few members talk in name of 1500000000 ( in words : one thousant and a half) muslims in the word, and u must that these muslims follow the Holy Quran and the explaining of it, so i dont know how u say that muslims agree with wht u claimed, i wonder if u asked every one of them, and again i say : i am waiting for ur proofs for ur calims.
U said that Muhammad worshipped stones before he become prophet, and u i again ask u proofs, other wise i can call u lier, as it wasnt question, it was claim, if it was question i will be glad to answer, but as it was claim, waiting for ur proofs to cancel the lier word.
But i like it alot when u said that Jesus pbuh was born jews and wasnt chritian yes, then for 30 years he was jews, and then for 3 years he was christian, if jews hear u talk they will be so happy, then even christianity does not exist, as Jesus pbuh was jew, was nice point from u.
About the more powerfull thing u said, i posted an answer for it in the discuss made by u under name how Holy Quran say jesus is son of God. If u want miravle more srong than Jesus pbuh and made by Muhammad i am happy to give u one.. the miracle that moon was separated, medicine today so advanced, and if u say that Jesus pbuh healed ppl by him self, then today they can open heart and close it without person die, But Muahammad pbuh made the moon 2 half, hmmm.ANd Moses made the stick an alive snake, hmmm, who is more powerfull now? i say no one of these 3, coz not they who did these thing but God who made them. And by the way, as u said that Muhammad pbuh didnt do like Jesus did of miracles, and u arrived to conclusion he is not prophet coz thier miracles were equal, well i gave u miracle for Muhammad pbuh and miracle for Moses pbuh that Jesus didnt do them and r bigger than Jesus pbuh miracle, and i can give u name of man from bible who made human wake up from death i will check back and bring his name, hmmm, then he is equal to Jesus according to ur difiniton. And Abraham pbuh according Holy Quran is more powerfull according to ur definition, coz he cutted 3 birds and mixed them and then separated them to 3 groups and then they were alive again and every pieve went to it's own body ( sure was made by God).

Alhamdo LILLAH
ASSALAMO ALAIKOM WA RAHMATO ALLAH WA BARAKATIHI

[Shield&Sword]

In name of ALLAH we continue:

Now at the end i say that u asked questions, and also u claimed things,,for the questions u asked i dont ask u proof , but for ur claims i ask u proof ( at least u said u brought hadeeth from Bukhari and muslim book, please show us them at least), and if u dont have proofs for ur calims then we can say u r lier, scuse me for this word, but its true, and its justice no? when we say claim wrong things, and ask u for proofs and u dont bring them then u r lier? If u want u can paste and write only ur questions without any claims so things wont be mixed up, and then u can paste another post for ur claims, an there u must for sure present ur proofs, or u will know how we call some one say things without proofs only throw words.
Before i finish, u must know ppl that prophets r different with miracles but equal with message, which is worshiping the one almighty GOD, ALLAH.
And u must know that the Holy Quran is still with same language that was sent to Muhammad pbuh which is arabic, and no one can say even one verse that exist in Holy Quran, and God by him self in Holy Quran said that it wont be chainged and will be reserved. Jesus talked aramic and bible was sent by greek language, and the aramic vanished completely from this world, even the king james version of bible is written with not the same english langugae that we have today between our hands, and even some verses r canceled from now adays bibles, u can check king james version and now adays bible that u have in house. And i as saw Dark talk about trinity from Holy Quran without any proof and say all muslims accept that trinity is different in Holy Quran (without any proof for sure), i say to him look at the first message of John 5:7 , look at it in king james version and the bible that u have now in houes, let me say that the verse in king james version is talking about the trinity which is the basic of christianity, but in now adays this verse is canceled,, do u know by whom canceled? not by muslim or any other religion, it is canceled by preists, by christian preists, coz they decided that this sentence is fabricated, the basic of christianity is fabricated, the verse that say wht is trinity and who r they is fabricated and was canceled, and then Dark come to me and explain Holy Quran by his own without proof and then he dare and say u bring proofs against my claims.
I say to u all go back to the verses i posted.

And u ppl who study literature, u must know that there is in Holy Quran a verse that no other writer dare to write it in his book, This verse is 4:82, that say to us that there is no mistake in Holy Quran and say if ALLAH didnt sent it, then they will find mistakes in it, the other verse is 17:88, and it say that no one can write like this Holy Quran, which writer dare to write this thing in his book from humans, and for 1400 years is stil same Holy Quran go from Japan to usa u will find same Holy Quran same words same ordination, there r arabs non muslims and world now is 6 thousand million ppl , now one wrote even one verse and said hay i wrote like Holy Quran, ppl tried but no one could, and arabic langugae is difficult and beutifull and with difficult grammer, if u want to talk pure arabic u must think well before u say the scentence to say it right, no one from arabs could write like it, even ppl at time of Muhmmad pbuh that were against him admitted that words of holy Quran is incredible and not human words, even prophet Muhammad pbuh didnt know to write or read, and ppl at time of Muhammad were the right ppl who talked pure arabic as they were so proud of this language.

Only one last word, u said that only 1% is accepted from 600000 hadeeths, and this proof that hadeeth is science and no other religion has this thing, and that there r rules to accept hadeeth and that no one who say hey i heared soemthing from Muhammad, so alot of ppl against islam tried to say wrong hadeeths, but thank ALLAH we know which r prophets words and its proof that religion wasnt chainged and made by ppl. Some times u say things but u dont know they r against u, u must think before u talk, not only sit and take keyboard and write.
Dark i challenge u that u bring me one wrong verse from Holy Quran or contraddiction, and this challenge is for all who say bad things about Holy Quran. And if u want contraddiction from bible or wrong verse i am happy to give u, bet let us not mix this thing in this posts, if u want we can open new post.
And for these who dont believe in any thing i challenge any one to write book and challenge ppl in it to find one mistake or bring even one ecentence, and that one thousand million ppl accept it as way of life,,or even if they dont accept it like way of life.
Waiting ur proofs for ur claims dark.

Alhamdo LILLAH
ASSALAMO ALAIKOM WA RAHMATO ALLAH WA BARAKATIHI

[dark_182_88]

In the 7th century AD, the Arabic alphabet is attested in its classical form.
See PERF 558 for the first surviving Islamic Arabic writing.

In the 7th century AD, probably in the early years of Islam while writing down the Qur'an, it was realized that deciding by context in each case did not solve all the various ambiguities that resulted when reading Arabic text, and a proper cure was needed. Writings in the Nabataean and Syriac alphabets already had sporadic examples of dots being used to distinguish letters which had become identical, for example as in the table at http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D_r_nabat_syriaque.png .
By analogy of this, a system of dots was added to the Arabic alphabet to make enough different letters for Classical Arabic's 28 phonemes. Sometimes the resulting new letters were put in alphabetical order after their un-dotted originals, and sometimes at the end.

The first surviving document that definitely uses these dots is also the first surviving Arabic papyrus (PERF 558), dated April 643 AD. The dots did not become obligatory until much later. Important texts like the Qur'an were frequently memorized; this practice, which survives even today, probably arose partially to avoid the great ambiguity of the script, as well as the scarcity of books in times when printing was unheard-of and every copy of every book had to be written by hand.

The alphabet then had 28 letters, and so could be used to write the numbers 1 to 10, then 20 to 100, then 200 to 900, then 1000 (see Abjad numerals). In this numerical order, the new letters were put at the end of the alphabet. This produced this order: alif (1), b (2), j (3), d (4), h (5), w (6), z (7), H (8), T (9), y (10), k (20), l (30), m (40), n (50), s (60), ayn (70), f (80), S (90), q (100), r (200), sh (300), t (400), sh (500), kh (600), dh (700), D (800), Z (900), gh (1000).

The lack of vowel signs in Arabic writing created more ambiguities: for example, in Classical Arabic ktb could be kataba = "he wrote" or kutiba = "it was written". Later, vowel signs and hamzas were added, beginning some time in the last half of the sixth century, at about the same time as the first invention of Syriac and Hebrew vocalization. Initially, this was done by a system of red dots, said to have been commissioned by an Umayyad governor of Iraq, Hajjaj ibn Yusuf: a dot above = a, a dot below = i, a dot on the line = u, and doubled dots gave tanwin. However, this was cumbersome and easily confusable with the letter-distinguishing dots, so about 100 years later, the modern system was adopted. The system was finalized around 786 by al-Farahidi.

When new signs were added to the Arabic alphabet, they took the alphabetical order value of the letter which were an alternative for: tā' marbūta took the value of ordinary t, and not of h.. In the same way, the many diacritics do not have any value: for example, a doubled consonant indicated by shadda, does not count as two letters.

Some features of the Arabic alphabet arose because of differences between Qur'anic spelling (which followed the Makkan dialect pronunciation used by Muhammad and his first followers) and the standard Classical Arabic. These include:-

tā' marbūta: This arose because the -at- ending of feminine nouns was often pronounced as -ah and written as h. To avoid altering Quranic spelling, the dots of t were written over the h.
y used to spell ā at the ends of some words: This arose because ā arising from contraction where single y dropped out between vowels, was in some dialects pronounced at the ends of words with the tongue further forward than for other ā vowels, and as a result in the Qu'ran it was written as y.
ā not written as alif in some words: The Arabic spelling of Allāh was decided before the Arabs started using alif to spell ā. In other cases (for example the first ā in hāðā = "this"), it may be that the Makkan dialect pronounced those vowels short.
hamza: Originally alif spelt the glottal stop. But Makkans did not pronounce the glottal stop, but replaced it by w or y or nothing, or lengthened an adjacent vowel, or between vowels dropped the glottal stop and contracted the vowels; and the Qur'an was written following Makkan pronunciation. The Arabic grammarians invented the hamza diacritic sign and used it to mark the glottal stop. hamza is Arabic for "hook".

[dark_182_88]

Go to this link also if your interested, http://arabworld.nitle.org/texts.php?module_id=1&reading_id=17 ... it shows how the vowels and "accents" were adopted much later in the arabic writing.

All that just shows your ignorance even in the arabic language. I mean, you even said that the aramaic language doesn't exist (my grandmother's brother speaks aramaic by the way).

And by the way, I studied arabic as a first language, and I speak it as a first language.

Edited by Logos to remove flame.

[dark_182_88]

My next point is that u claimed that we muslims say that trinity mentioned in Holy Quran is Meryam and Jesus, well i asked u proof and u sayed that some members here in forum agreed with u ( i admire alot that u finally brought proof, even i dont know if we can call it proof) and i dont know if these few members talk in name of 1500000000 ( in words : one thousant and a half) muslims in the word, and u must that these muslims follow the Holy Quran and the explaining of it, so i dont know how u say that muslims agree with wht u claimed, i wonder if u asked every one of them, and again i say : i am waiting for ur proofs for ur calims.

Stick to one thread, don't repeat yourself in more than one thread so that I dont have to copy it again :

“And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.” Holy Qur’an 5:116


U said that Muhammad worshipped stones before he become prophet, and u i again ask u proofs, other wise i can call u lier, as it wasnt question, it was claim, if it was question i will be glad to answer, but as it was claim, waiting for ur proofs to cancel the lier word.

I'll post a thread just for that, don't worry :) (gee i hate it how i have to repeat myself though).


But i like it alot when u said that Jesus pbuh was born jews and wasnt chritian yes, then for 30 years he was jews, and then for 3 years he was christian, if jews hear u talk they will be so happy, then even christianity does not exist, as Jesus pbuh was jew, was nice point from u.

I said that?

I said that Jesus was born a jew and lived his whole life as a jew (I never said christian), and that he was born a monotheist and lived his whole life as a monotheist.

However, Muhammad got his "revelation" at the age of 40, and he wasn't born neither jewish or christian, therefore he was polytheist for quite a long time, which makes him a sinner since idolaters are sinners (according to Islam itself). Therefore, how could he be a prophet if according to Islam all prophets are sinless.

Anyways, don't worry, I'll post about that later

[Logos]

Anymore personal/flame posts will get this topic closed.

[[unaffected]]

dark_182_88 ... I admire how much you know about the Islamic religion and how well you handled the 'debate'. You know more about the religion than many Muslims themselves do.

Though, there are a few points you have mentioned that I would like to contradict (and don't worry, I have provided proof) :nod:

Muhammad (pbuh) did not practice polygamy because he was unable to resist his sexual desires, but instead, he thought as a political leader and did it for political reasons. His marriage to some of these woman were actually alliances with tribes. And in the case of the young Ayesha, as well as a few of his other wives, he was, in a way, an institution of social welfare. Some of these woman were destitute (widowed and orphaned), and Muhammad (pbuh) acted as refuge to them; but taking into consideration his Islamic beliefs, he could not care for them accordingly if he was not married to them or if he was not related to them by blood. Therefore, to remove the 'sinful-ness' of it, he married them in order to properly care for them. And these are the only circumstances in Islam where polygamy is allowed.

According to Jarir ibn ‘Abdullah, when he asked the Prophet (SAW) about a man’s gaze falling inadvertently on a strange woman, the Prophet (SAW) replied, "Turn your eyes away." (Muslim).

This proves that Muhammad (pbuh) had high and strict morals and ethics where women are concerned, as well as in every other aspect of his life.

Furthermore, Muhammad remained married to his first wife, Khadija, for 25 years before he married another woman. I believe that this period of 25 years is a measure of Muhammad and his commitment to monogamy. He did not succumb to his alleged libido in his youth and when society had no problems with that practice (it was a trend in his time for a man to have more than one wife), he still chose to be the anomaly in his times – a monogamous man.



"Anyone who befriends another or makes an enemy, gives or withholds, has perfected his faith, if what he does is done for the sake of the Almighty." (Bukhari, on the authority of Abu Umamah)

In all the wars (jihad) Muhammad (pbuh) partook, he had only one purpose, one mission: he was fighting for the sake of his God, Allah. He did not kill ruthlessly or brutally or without purpose, but he killed in defense of himself, as well as his religion and beliefs. And Muslims believe that whoever dies in the path of God, whoever sacrifices his life for God, is guaranteed Heaven. So, his participation in the wars should not be looked upon as murder, but rather it should be seen as an act of worship to the one God that Muhammad believed in.

“Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against those disbelievers), who are fighting them, (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely Allâh is Able to give them (believers) victory.” Quraan [22:39]

“And fight, in the way of Allâh those who fight you; but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors... And Al-Fitnah (polytheism or calamity) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the Sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of ) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimûn (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) ” Quraan [2:190-193]




"Indeed We sent Noah to his people, and he said: 'O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilâh (God) but Him. (Lâ ilaha ill Allah, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a great Day!' " Quraan (V. 7:59).

"And to 'Ad (people, We sent) their brother Hûd. He said: 'O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilâh (God) but Him. (Lâ ilâha ill Allâh, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Will you not fear (Allah)?' "
Quraan (V. 7:65).

"And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): Worship Allah (Alone) and avoid (or keep away from) Tâghût (all false deities etc. i.e. do not worship Tâghûts besides Allah). " Quraan (V. 16:36).

All the Prophets preached Tauhîd (i.e. Monotheism, the Belief in the Oneness of Allah). Since the beginning of time, the one God that Muhammad believed in has always existed. Muhammad always believed in this God, his parents always believed in this God. Muhammd (pbuh) only never had substantial, written evidence to fall back on. He never had a written book (the Quraan) to guide him and to answer all the questions he may have about God. Muhammad (pbuh) was never a polytheist, even before he received the revelation and became a prophet. The only thing lacking before the revelation was the Holy Quraan. Before the revelation, Muhammad (pbuh) would always retreat to the Cave of Hira (which is where the revelation took place). This cave was where he found solitude and where he felt closer to God, in this cave Muhammad (pbuh) would meditate (by himself - no idols, or anything of the sort, present), he would think of God and speak to Him, he would ask Him to guide the people in the town so that they would stop worshipping idols. Surely, dark_182_88, if u know so many in-depth things about the Islamic religion, that so many Muslims themselves do not know, you should also know this very basic information about Muhammad? It is, after-all, a rather well-known fact that Muhammad would meditate by himself in the Cave of Hira. The idea of him being a polytheist is absurd. After being so thoroughly engrossed with reading all the valid, intelligent points you made regarding Islam and Muhammad (pbuh), I was honestly taken aback at this one unintelligent point you made about Muhammad (pbuh) being a polytheist. No offence.

[[unaffected]]

And now, coming to the last point of yours I would like to contradict:
Jesus seems to be more powerful and divine than Mohammed

Dude, you are so mistaken about this. You see, this is how it goes: There were many prophets in the history of Islam, right? Now, if God sends a prophet to guide the people of that particular prophet's time, do you think that this prophet could just talk to the people and they would listen and believe? No. The prophet would need something extra... a miracle, if you will.
Have you ever watched an episode of Touched by an Angel? Well, in this film, there are constantly miracles happening, and people who have lost faith suddenly reagains it after witnessing this miracle, which mere people on earth (and sometimes 'angels') perform, BUT it is known in the film that these miracles are only done with the will of God. Now, back to my point; in order for the prophets to make the people believe in one God, and not the idols, they needed a miracle, in order to prove that some statue made of stone, clay, or wood, or whatever else that was used, could not do the divine and MIRACULOUS things that the One, Divine God could do. And in order to draw the people's attention, the prophet would need to do something out of the ordinary, something that would appeal to the people. In each society, of each different time, the people of that society have their own trends. For example, in our society, in this day and age, technology is the biggest and fastest growing trend, and in most cases, the only way anybody will take you seriously is if you are fairly well-educated about technology. Thus, in Moses' time, magic was very popular, so God granted him the ability to be somewhat of a magician. If you will recall the story about Moses, he (by the grace of God, of course) turned a stick into a snake. He also was able to split the sea in half and walk through it. This definitely got the people's attention. (So howcome you don't argue that Moses is more powerful than Jesus? Because in my opinion, splitting the sea is a major deal, don't you think?) And the there's the case of Uzair, who slept for 100 years. When he awoke, he was not a day older and still in perfect health. His fruit was preserved and still fresh. His camel had died, but upon his awakening, the camel was revived. Is this not more powerful than what Jesus could do? Or at least of equal rank? I mean, to sleep for ONE HUNDRED YEARS and awake in perfect health and still the same age? Pretty major. Now, in Jesus' time, medicine was pretty popular. The ability to heal a sick person. And none of these prophet's were ever just mediocre, no way. They had to go just one step further. So, instead of God willing Jesus to merely heal sick people, He granted Jesus the ability to even revive the dead! This impressed the people of his time, and he would then explain that it was only by the Grace of God that it was possible, and those who were smart enough would believe. Others chose to remain blinded to the truth. And finally, getting to Muhammad (pbuh): poetry, literature, reading, anything of the sort, was very popular in his time. Muhammad, as everybody knows, was illiterate. So obviously he was not part of the 'in' crowd, since he knew nothing of literature. But his very own miracle finally arrived when Angel Gabriel spoke to him and he received the revelation. He was commanded three times by the angel to read. Upon which the first two times he replied that he could not read. But the third time, miraculously, without any prior tutoring, Muhammad read! Muhammad received the Holy, Divine Quran, and this was his very own miracle, as each prophet had their own. But, the miracles produced by all the prophets (before Muhammad) died with them when they died: the snake of Moses died, the people Jesus healed or revived eventually died too. But the Quran, Muhammad's miracle, still lives on, so many hundred years later. Is that not a miracle in itself? Is that not more divine than the abilities of Jesus? Muhammad impressed the people of his time by reciting the beautiful words of the Quran. No poet of his time (and not even of our time) can match the beauty and uniquness of the words of the Quran. As poetry was popular in his time, many were impressed by his recitations of the verses of the Quran, and many also converted due to his beautiful, unique character, that was so rare in a time of so many who were corrupt. One wonderful example of the miracle of such a noble and honest man is the incident of his neighbour constently dumping trash on him every morning that he passed her house. He never retaliated, never uttered an ill word, and never came close to harming her. But one morning, he passed her home, and there was no trash being thrown at him. Concerned, he asked about her whereabouts, and was informed that she was ill in bed. His character was so beautiful and pure, that regardless of the manner in which she treated him, he still was concerned about her health and he went to visit her. When this happened, when this woman saw him visiting her, saw his genuine concern for her, she converted to Islam. And this thus proves the miracle of Muhammad's character.

In conclusion, Jesus is not more powerful or divine than Muhammad (pbuh). Perhaps his abilities were more amazing, but that is solely because it was a trend amongst his people. But if you were to look at it this way, you would think differently: Muhammad has so much more follower's than Jesus had in his time. Muhammad's Ummah is so much more larger - and still growning. Statistics say that it is the fastest growing realigion in the world. Jesus never had that many people converting, did he?

[dark_182_88]

[unaffected], I like the way you tell things. I could've used Moses to compare him with Muhammad as a prophet and would've gotten the same result. The thread here talks about Jesus, that's why I used him. I am launching my debates based on Islam, whereas Jesus is considered to be a prophet, and on that basis I am talking about how Jesus seems to be more divine or powerful.

"Narrated 'Aisha:
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship (Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) AND PRESSED ME SO HARD THAT I COULD NOT BEAR IT ANYMORE. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again AND PRESSED ME A SECOND TIME till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time AND PRESSED ME and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

Then Allah's Apostle returned WITH THE INSPIRATION, HIS NECK MUSCLES TWITCHING WITH TERROR till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." KHADIJA SAID, 'Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good reactions with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father's brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, "O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew." Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" The Prophet described whatever he had seen.

WARAQA SAID, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they turn meout?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night). (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111)"

From that, it doesn't say that Muhammad could read after the angel gabriel told him to. Muhammad started saying that he was encountering the angel Gabriel after his christian uncle told him that it was Gabriel, the same uncle who couldn't see and who claimed that Gabriel appeared to Moses while it was God himself who appeared to Moses from the bush. There is also no reason for the angel to press hard against Muhammad's chest.


As for Muhammad getting a larger "Ummah" and more followers at the time. Well, the main difference (for me) is that one used his sword and one used his word. Don't tell me that it was self-defense, I dont want to get into that, but the main thing is that Muhammad was a political and military leader, which when he controlled a city it was only natural that people succumb. Also, remember, that other than Muhammad waging about 60 wars, even after his death the way the Muslim empire grew so much was due to the sword as well. From the Ummayyad empire, to the Abbassid, and so on...all the non-muslims who lived in those areas had to live as Dhimmis or convert (if not, they were killed).

[dark_182_88]

As for what you said in your first post, well its a nice way to interpret it, but fact is that he had more than 4 wives while he didn't allow it. He even had a relationship with a slave of his (the ethiopian christian woman) although correct me if I'm wrong this is also not allowed. Anyways, that is a silly discussion, let's move on.


Let me ask you this. In pre-islamic times, you were either christian, jew or pagan. Christian and jew would make you a monotheist, while a pagan would make you a polytheist. Since Muhammad was neither a Christian nor a Jew, then what does that make him? I'm waiting for your smart answer.

While your at it, those 2 show how Muhammad worshiped the idols as well:
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said that he met Zaid bin 'Amr Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah's Apostle received the Divine Inspiration. Allah's Apostle presented a dish of meat (that had been offered to him by the pagans) to Zaid bin 'Amr, but Zaid refused to eat of it and then said (to the pagans), "I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stone altars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah's Name has been mentioned on slaughtering." (Sahih al-Bukhari 7:407)

I was told that the apostle of Allah said, as he was talking about Zayd son of 'Amr son of Nufayl, 'He was the first to upbraid me for idolatry and forbade me to worship idols. I had come from al-Ta'if along with Zayd son of Haritha when we passed Zayd son of 'Amr who was in the highland of Mecca. Quraysh had made a public example of him for abandoning his religion, so that he went out from their midst. I sat down with him. I had a bag containing meat which WE HAD SACRIFICED TO OUR IDOLS — Zayd b. Haritha was carrying it — and I offered it to Zayd b. 'Amir — I was but a lad at the time — and I said, "Eat some of this food, my uncle." He replied, "Surely it is part of those sacrifices of theirs which they offer to their idols?" When I said that it was, he said, "Nephew mine, if you were to ask the daughters of 'Abd al-Muttalib they would tell you that I never eat of these sacrifices, and I have no desire to do so." Then he upbraided me for idolatry and spoke disparagingly of those who worship idols and sacrifice to them, and said, "They are worthless: they can neither harm nor profit anyone," or words to that effect.' The apostle added, 'After that I never knowingly stroked one of their idols nor did I sacrifice to them until God honoured me with his apostleship. [Ibn Ishaq]

[Stanislaw]

But i like it alot when u said that Jesus pbuh was born jews and wasnt chritian yes, then for 30 years he was jews, and then for 3 years he was christian, if jews hear u talk they will be so happy, then even christianity does not exist, as Jesus pbuh was jew, was nice point from u.

Jesus was never a christian. A christian is someone who follows the teaching of Jesus CHRIST. And Jewish people admit Jesus was Jewish, they consider him to be a heritic, or false-messiah.

This is just blatent corruption of darks words...you ask for proof, but supply none of your own.

[Jannah]

Assalamu Alaykom

I'm here to answer 2 things that I've read from page 1.
The First thing is: Who was Muhammad before he became 40? What was his religion?
The answer is: There was a time between religions when Humans would corrupt the true word of Allah, people then would worship one God but with no book nor teachings (manasek)- coz they've changed. They are called "Hanefeyeen" which refers to the religion of Abraham who was a "Hanefy". Haneefy means worshipper of one God.

Here are verses from the Quraan to clarify to you the religion of Abraham:

130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

131. Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."

132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."

134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

You will ask me now, Islam? Was there Islam at that time? Islam- other than it's our religion- means submission. Muslims means those who submit to Allah. The submission to Allah was done by all prophets of all religions.

Ok let's move on to Jesus (pbuh) in the Surah called: The Family of Imran (Which is the family of Jesus and his Mother, Zakeria, and all the rest, Peace be upon them all) where Jesus (pbuh) said:

51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Here with the same meaning of submission.

So in that period between prophets, These faithful people would do this, read on:

113. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.

114. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

115. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

then came the next prophet with the righteous book, the Bible. When it changed, people were now many types: those who worshipped idols, Jews, Christians, and Hanefeyya.

So what happened with Muhammad PBUH was the same that happened with all the others. Worshiping one God until He wishes to descend the righteous Book with its teachings.

The second question was: Jesus in the Quraan seems more divine that Muhammad. Peace be upon them.

as from the Quraan :
48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

I say YES! Jesus PBUH came with miracles NO OTHER PROPHET EVER HAD! but PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION HERE, FOR THIS MAY BE THE 1ST TIME FOR ALL OF YOU TO HEAR THIS:
WHO were the people Jesus PBUH was sent to? Read on from the verses of the Quraan, Who are the Children of Israel(Jacob), and how they are the worst people of all time. The grandchildren of the people that Prophet Moses PBUH was sent to. Allah saved them from the Pharoah, by splitting the sea in 2, After that they worshipped a golden Calf( long story)... and even after all those things they asked Moses, we won't believe until we see Allah manifestly.

49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.

51. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

52. Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.

53. And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

54. And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.

55. And remember ye said: "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.

56. Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.

57. And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: "Eat of the good things We have provided for you:" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.

58. And remember We said: "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good."

59. But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.

ALL these miracles and they didn't believe!!! DO they have a heart??? See how Allah described their hearts:

74. Thenceforth were your hearts hardened: They became like a rock and even worse in hardness. For among rocks there are some from which rivers gush forth; others there are which when split asunder send forth water; and others which sink for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

So now these people need a prophet to let them worship one God... but NO my friends, this kind of people, need not ANY prophet, but one who's birth itself is a miracle, not only that, HE HIMSELF is a miracle! Where he'd bring back the dead (by Allah's will) and the rest of the verse said in this post about Jesus and his miracles. So the miracles of Jesus were made to make those heartless people believe.

Don't sleep yet my friends, I still need your attention here. A muslim sister said in this thread that the miracle of Muhammad PBUH was the Qur'aan. I said earlier that each prophet's miracle is made to challenge his people. WHO WERE the people of Muhammad PBUH??? WHAT WAS THEIR CHALLENGE?
Their challenge was ARABIC! yes ARABIC! they were the world's greatest poets and writers at that time, it was their unique talent. So the Quraan, which Allah gave it to the prophet in Arabic amazed the ARABS themselves. They were amazed by it and even the disbelievers knew that it was Allah's words. They were knowledgeable of their language well enough to know that NO MAN would make words as these.

N.B. Qur'aan is still up to this day a challenge to all times. The Science in the Quraan made many many scientists revert to Islam, for absolutley no human would know these things 1400 years ago!

So with every new era, and every new century, the Quraan stays- unchanged- challenging the people of that era, it will go on in the future, and till the Judgement day comes.

and in the end:
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Salam

[Logos]

Please remember to read the new Religious Texts forum rules

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410

[Jannah]

No you cannot copy and paste huge tracts of text, you shouldn't need more than a few sentences, or maybe one paragraph in reference to the discussion.

OOPS! Logos I'm so sorry!! next I'll keep it one paragraph and brief. thank you.

[falling*moon]

Mr Basil.. am against what u said : ( Mohammad is the one who actually started Islam )

Islam means the submission to the will of God...

Actually that was the message of God which started with Adam..


it is the message of all the prophets even Jesus himself...who said :


“I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of Him who sent me”
( John 5: 23 )