shirley

[simona]

May I have a few questions?
What is the moral abou what Charlotte Bronte speaks at the end of her novel "Shirley"?
Did Shirley really loved Louis?
I have my own answers but I want to know others opinions.

[Dark Lord]

well , as i understood the novel Shirley found that Louis the suitable man as she wanted some one to be the head , someone who she can obey and to be bound to his orders and i thought that she loved Robert Moore ,but it appeared that she thought of him a young lad who always took by her orders and ideas

[Flora]

I agree, she did love Louis, but Im not sure about the moral...

[ksotikoula]

The moral Charlotte mentions in the end is her way of making fun of her readers who had searched so copiously her "Jane Eyre" and were unable to find one. She had said to her publishers that she was not going to write a novel for its moral. It is just a novel that makes you feel and think some issues. Not an oracle of wisdom.

Shirley loves Luis because he understands her nature better than anyone else. He is a strong enough personality to make her respect him and also challenge her, preserving her interest in him. Shirley doesn't wan't to be mastered, because she would never submit to tyranny. But she would never marry a man that was powerless in front of her, someone that couldn't impose himself on her. She feels at times that she needs a stronger hand to lead her without choking her. He also likes Shirley for her simplicity of being a child and a queen at the same time and he adores her flaws, because she provokes him to correct or playfully chide her. Theirs is a relationship of power. They are both powerful persons, that like to feel each other's power :).

[Peripatetics]

May I have a few questions?
What is the moral abou what Charlotte Bronte speaks at the end of her novel "Shirley"?

Wikipedia has a definition of morality that seems to be more inclusive than that of a dictionary - In its first, descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct which is held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong. Morals are created and defined by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience.

Therefore in the context that simona posses the question, we have to look for an answer in the order of: individual conscience, philosophy, society and lastly religion but we have to restrict ourselves to the context of Shirley. Else it's a dialogue of fools!
Charlotte was aware that that she had posed the question in Jane Eyre and in spite of her introduction - “ Do you anticipate sentiment, and poetry, and reverie? Do you expect passion, and stimulus, and melodrama? Calm your expectations; reduce them to a lowly standard. Something real, cool and solid lies before you; something unromantic as Monday morning, when all who have work wake with the consciousness that they must rise and betake themselves thereto.“, she does suggest an answer, in the dialogue of Caroline and Shirley, in chapter 18 subtitled - “Which the Genteel Reader is Recommended to Skip, Low.”

Caroline - 'And that is not Milton's Eve, Shirley.'

Shirley - 'Milton's Eve! Milton's Eve! I repeat. No, by the pure Mother of God, she is not! Cary, we are alone: we may speak what we think. Milton was great; but was he good? His brain was right; how was his heart? ...Milton tried to see the first woman; but, Cary, he saw her not.'

Shirley - 'I saw - I now see - a woman-Titan: her robe of blue air spreads to the outskirts of the heath, where yonder flock is grazing; a veil white as an avalanche sweeps from her head to her feet, and arabesques of lightning flame on its borders. Under her breast I see her zone, purple like that horizon: through its blush shines the star of evening. Her steady eyes I cannot picture; they are clear - they are deep as lakes - they are lifted and full of worship - they tremble with the softness of love and the lustre of prayer. Her forehead has the expanse of a cloud, and is paler than the early moon, risen long before dark gathers: she reclines her bosom on the ridge of Stilbro' Moor; her mighty hands are joined beneath it. So kneeling, face to face she speaks with God. '

Caroline - 'She is very vague and visionary! Come, Shirley, we ought to go into church.'

Shirley - 'Caroline, I will not: I will stay out here with my mother Eve, in these days called Nature. I love her, undying, mighty being! Heaven may have faded from her brow when she fell in paradise; but all that is glorious on earth shines there still, She is taking me to her bosom, and showing me her heart.

And the response of the genteel Caroline is : 'Pagan that you are! what does that signify?'
In my reading – morality – of Shirley, the character as well as of the novel and extrapolating, dangerously, of Charlotte herself. But you will have to decide for yourself.

[Peripatetics]

posting deleted.

[ksotikoula]

At the risk of disagreeing with a psychologist, this is a misreading of character in Shirley.
To reduce Shirley, Louis, Robert, to type A characters is to take them out of the 19th. century Yorkshire into the 20th. century Madison Avenue. More to the point, type A's are emotionally immature, where the predominantly emotional satisfaction is in a power struggle, guaranteeing unhappiness.
Charlotte was not that stupid to write a soap-opera!

First of all it seems that I have made a mistake in revealing my profession, but it was in an effort to support a mental health argument, not something to be judged for accordingly in all my personal and not professional opinions. It is a matter of politeness not to repeat personal information that have no place in a conversation. It is like writing on a telephone booth somebody's phone just because you once had an access to it.

Secondly, I never spoke about A characters and the stereotypical view you seem to have about a group of them characterized by primarily by being emotional immature etc. So it is you who reduces Charlotte Bronte's heroes to it. I never put them into a category of persons who do this or that. I spoke about how I felt the particular heroes. Other than that if some characteristics of "A characters" seem to you relevant to the heroes, this is understandable because some traits are not a fabrication of today's. Human nature is much the same no matter what we call it. So, in a way power struggles were always present either you accept it or not.

Thirdly, by saying as a conclusion that Charlotte Bronte was not that stupid to create a soap opera - and that conclusion comes out of my view of the book - is to imply that it is my stupidity to reduce her novel to this. Now it is another thing to disagree on opinions and another to pass judgments as these. I have not given you any right to think I am stupid, let alone writing it on a public site.

[Peripatetics]

A public apology about the 'disagreement with a psychologist', while it was not meant personally, it was badly worded. Especially your interpretation “I have not given you any right to think I am stupid, let alone writing it on a public site.” , as that was not my intent.
Please accept my apology.

[ksotikoula]

Please accept my apology.

I am happy to say: Apology accepted.
Part of the relationships is to learn the limits of other and now for the first time you reached mine :) .
Just don't do it again in the future :lol: .

Another part of the relationships is giving a chance to somebody to make it up to you.
And I am following my own advice ;).

[Peripatetics]

Posting moved