"End Times"

[Adelheid]

Throughout the past few years, I have dwelt on this particular theme. It is becoming more obvious that there is something happening nowadays that has never happened before in the History of the World. Natural Disasters and Catastrophies are occurring more and more, rumors of wars are spreading right around the globe, and war is happening in the Middle East right now. Have none of you thought about it and about what it really means?

There is but one explanation for it all: The prophecy from time long ago is about to come true- Jesus is returning.

Have any of you read the Left Behind Series? I have read almost all of them but 'Armegaddon'. I know that it is a fiction book with fictional characters and all, but the events are taken from the Bible, and made into a novel. Still it is a vivid portrayal of what is to come. And reality is always much worse.

Look at the natural "calamities". Thousands have perished, and thousands more will die, but whether to find themselves in Heaven or Hell is up to them. The earth is GROANING for the returning of the Lord. It is in birthpangs, but this is just the beginning of it. The pang will grow in intensity until it is almost unbearable. The same shall be for the world. Disasters after disaster will come, each will be worse then ever before. Has it not come to pass already? The hurricanes were "worst" in history! The earthquakes were almost the worst possible that could happen! People lost everything, their possessions, their loved ones, their lives even. The teams sent to help the victims of the great Tsunami on Boxing Day of last year, are still trying to clear the aftermath of the catastrophy! Whole colonies and villages were lost.


"For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour. " Romans 8:22 God's Word Translation

The world is in turmoil, and many false prophets and antichrists will rise and say, "look, I am the Christ returned!" But do not believe them. You can tell by their deeds and by their fruits whether they are of God or not. For many False Prophets will rise up, and do many "miracles" so that they shall deceive many people. Do not be deceived by them.


"And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 24:2-51

I have just pointed out to you several things, and I hope that you will read it, because it is important.


"What I say to you, then, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:37

[Adelheid]

Here's another passage of Scripture regarding the Returning of the Lord Jesus Christ.


"For the trouble of those days will be far worse than any the world has ever known from the very beginning when God created the world until the present time. Nor will there ever be anything like it again.
Mar 13:20 But the Lord has reduced the number of those days; if he had not, nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, he has reduced those days.
Mar 13:21 "Then, if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'Look, there he is!'---do not believe it.
Mar 13:22 For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will perform miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God's chosen people, if possible.
Mar 13:23 Be on your guard! I have told you everything ahead of time.
Mar 13:24 "In the days after that time of trouble the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine,
Mar 13:25 the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven from their courses.
Mar 13:26 Then the Son of Man will appear, coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 He will send the angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather God's chosen people from one end of the world to the other.
Mar 13:28 "Let the fig tree teach you a lesson. When its branches become green and tender and it starts putting out leaves, you know that summer is near.
Mar 13:29 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the time is near, ready to begin.
Mar 13:30 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Mar 13:32 "No one knows, however, when that day or hour will come---neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son; only the Father knows.
Mar 13:33 Be on watch, be alert, for you do not know when the time will come.
Mar 13:34 It will be like a man who goes away from home on a trip and leaves his servants in charge, after giving to each one his own work to do and after telling the doorkeeper to keep watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch, then, because you do not know when the master of the house is coming---it might be in the evening or at midnight or before dawn or at sunrise.
Mar 13:36 If he comes suddenly, he must not find you asleep.
Mar 13:37 What I say to you, then, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:19-37

God is merciful. There is yet time now to repent and accept Him, you know. These disasters are wake-up calls to the Church, and warnings to the unbelievers.

I will leave it at that. Peace be with you all in these turbulent times. :angel:

[Pendragon]

Calm, concise, and to the point. Nice job! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1074.gif:angel:

[ThatIndividual]

:santasmil Also be ye reminded, ye of all nations, that as the season approacheth, he who doth sit atop the North Pole watcheth, and He seeth everything you do. Lo! Behold! For an angel of the Kringle appeared and he spake unto me, and he spake thus:
"Be ye careful what ye saith and what ye doeth... For the hour approacheth, and he cometh like a thief in the night, so be ye always awatch, and be ye ready with milk and cookies aplenty."

[ThatIndividual]

Oh, yea I nearly forgot.... Amen.

[Ancestor]

First of all I do not want to offend anyone but just state a opinion that is not directed at any one person.

Earth changes are occurring now more then most of us who are alive today have ever seen in our lifetime. These Earth changes have been occurring since the Earth was first created and before man first set foot upon the planet. When we notice these changes occurring we tend to feel that the end of the world is nearing. What a negative thought to think but one that is understandable after all we humans fear the unknown quite a lot. I feel that we humans have not done a good enough job in taking care of our planet as we should. Now I am not a activist but someone who feels we should take care of the planet as good as we take care of our bodies. Thousands of years ago the Earth was not exposed to half of what we expose it to now.

Now I am not trying to say that Adelheid is wrong in what she/he believes and nor do I feel she/he is forcing that belief onto me. I feel though that Adelheid is trying to help us see that if we do not do something about our planet soon we may face our own self distruction. But I also feel if you place a negative thought into the world it will grow and will have harmful affects. Spiritual awakening is a journey you must want for yourself and if others are willing to share that makes it more special. I mainly have a problem with the human interpretation of the Bible for myself. I have seen the Bible also be of great comfort to someone who is dying or in a crisis. For me it does not provide that and yes, I have read some of the Bible. I believe if you feel something is good it will have a good affect on your life. I believe if you feel that something is bad it will have a bad affect on your life. Beliefs can affect our lives in ways we never imagined and they can affect others lives as well. Balanced life is not always easy to walk and I live my life as best as I can. I am a good person whom believes that when my death comes I shall be judge and straight by only one being. It will not be a fellow human who feels my lack of belief in a Bible will stop me from standing before the Great Spirit. Most religions make me feel the one doing the judging is man and not a higher being.

My apologies to anyone whom may have taken offense but I believe in sending out the positive for the world today. Perhaps this is a wake call that we need not ignore. One lesson we should all learned from this recent storms is that at any moment we may end up without those whom we love. possessions can be replaced people cannot. Although losing everything like home, clothing, and food and water was tragic to those whom lost it. We seem to be pulling together to help each in this time of need. But once this time of need is over then we once again separate as if strangers. We should always be there for each other no matter what.

[ThatIndividual]

Ancestor, you make an excellent point, and indeed a solemn point. Our mother is in critical condition, and it doesn't look like we're going to be able to save her.

[Ancestor]

I feel that too but I pray that I am wrong about not being able to save our Mother Earth. I even say a healing prayer for Mother Earth and I am beginning to feel the need to do it more often.

[subterranean]

No matter how positive the energy we send or give to this world, it would end. That's the destiny, according to Christianity, of course. And I think that's what Adelheid's posts are all about.
There are many verses in the Bible that states about this worl'd destiny and the coming of the new world.

I see that this theme has become one of the key "tool's to tell people to repent. But the idea of being scared then repent does not really fit me.




My apologies to anyone whom may have taken offense but I believe in sending out the positive for the world today. Perhaps this is a wake call that we need not ignore. One lesson we should all learned from this recent storms is that at any moment we may end up without those whom we love. possessions can be replaced people cannot. Although losing everything like home, clothing, and food and water was a tragic to those whom lost it. We seem to be pulling together to help each in this time of need. But once this time of need is over then we once again separate as if strangers. We should always be there for each other no matter what.

[Ancestor]

But by believing it is so doesn't that make it come true? I understand what she/he is saying and I am not questioning her beliefs. All I am saying is that I would rather we not dwell on the end of the world but try to do something to help prevent it. It has not happened yet so why not try to stop it from happening?

[Dailen]

Stop the Return?....I don't think we have a choice.

[Pendragon]

No matter how positive the energy we send or give to this world, it would end. That's the destiny, according to Christianity, of course. And I think that's what Adelheid's posts are all about.
There are many verses in the Bible that states about this worl'd destiny and the coming of the new world.

I see that this theme has become one of the key "tool's to tell people to repent. But the idea of being scared then repent does not really fit me.To your last remark, I will say, as I have always said, scared religion is no religion. For when the fear passes, man will forget God. Repentence comes from God dealing in a person's heart until they recognize that they need a Savior, not from fear of hell, but because He first loved them. :angel:

[ThatIndividual]

But the Bible teaches that man is supposed to fear God. Proverbs says: The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. The very first thing... Fear God.

Ancestor, I understand what you mean about belief making something true, however, there are different criteria of truth. I think that the truth to which you refer is a subjective truth, whereas, usually when people use the word they refer to an objective truth.

Say for instance that Christ actually did show up on Earth as God incarnate, and did walk on water and rise from the dead, etc. Say for example that the Bible is accurate, then if I believe that it isn't, it's my truth that it's a hoax... However, if there is objective truth to it, then when I die, I still perish in hell becaue it turned out to have objective truth.

[Scheherazade]

Stop the Return?....I don't think we have a choice. I think Ancestor is refering to 'end of times' in a more practical sense. All these natural disasters are result of our neglect of the planet. However, to a religious mind, they are signs of second coming as it is mentioned in the religious books.

The thing is when you have faith and 'believe', then anything and everything can be a proof of God's existence but if you are sceptical already, the very proof offered to you can make you question the existence of God.

[Stanislaw]

I think Ancestor is refering to 'end of times' in a more practical sense. All these natural disasters are result of our neglect of the planet. However, to a religious mind, they are signs of second coming as it is mentioned in the religious books.

The thing is when you have faith and 'believe', then anything and everything can be a proof of God's existence but if you are sceptical already, the very proof offered to you can make you question the existence of God.

Well said. People will believe and interpret what people want to believe and interpret from each scenario played out on this planet...many people thought it was the end of days when Hitler invaded poland, the ussr and usa raced to create more destructive weapons, and so on.
I think that what will happen will happen, and we have no means of labeling the future events with a date and time, so for now, live a normal and good life, and if tomorrow is the "rapture" then there aint a whole lot we can do about it.

[ThatIndividual]

I certainly mean to offend no one when I state quite seriously, quite solemnly,


rapture schmapsure. :thumbs_up

[Ancestor]

I was not offended by anything you said ThatIndividual in fact I was certain my comments would offend someone. :nod: I lived in darkness most of life and thought that darkness cannot be prevented makes the world appear without any kind of hope. I do not want to live in that kind of world but if it is written and be do nothing about then we do make it come true. My Father dwelled about going onto insulin shots for two years he's on them now. I feel we humans are more capable of making a difference then we give ourselves credit for.

The churches I have been their sermons were all about the negative side of life and nothing about the positive. I do not blame the church for that nor the faith but the preacher who gave the sermon. Their is both the positive and negative in this world and if you only address one side how can find hope. Some members of Churches have made me feel like I am a bad person because I do not follow their faith. I am a good person and those people do not get to judge my life. If I have done something the Great Spirit felt I should not have done then when we meet my judgement will come then. I feel man has put his own personal intreptations into someone else's words. There are preachers out there whom think it is okay to kill a man who slept with a man. What happened to thou shall not kill? I do not think it added except gay people, black people, and anyone who does not believe. I will not this man because he is not a man of the cloth to me when only hate comes out of his mouth. Pendragon has stated he was a minister and I would have loved hear him give a sermon. His kind heart shows throughout the board and he has never made me feel like he was forcing his beliefs onto me.

Why can't we focus on trying to prevent this from happening? Bible states it but is that not giving us a chance to prevent what may or may not be. Foretold warning often go un-noticed until it is too late for anything to be done. Many predictions have come to pass but that does not mean all of them will. We can do harm to ourselves and our planet then why not trying to do some good for a change to ourselves and our planet? Sorry if I offended anyone here. I for one just hate to see only darkness in a world and not the light as well. Although I feel perhaps this is one thread I should stay way from in order to not offend anyone.

[subterranean]

But the Bible teaches that man is supposed to fear God. Proverbs says: The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. The very first thing... Fear God.


I suppose Psalm refers to fear as a form respect, which is expected as a voluntary act, not fear as, say I point a gun in your head which make you feel really intimidated thus you acknowledge my superiority.

[Adelheid]

Ancestor,

I don't think anyone is offended by your opinions. You are certainly entitled to them whether others like it or not. :D

I'd just like to point out several things to you, and I hope in turn to not offend you. :nod: The Bible makes it clear to everyone and anyone that Good works cannot bring you to Heaven. It is by the grace of God and the acceptance of the gift of God that we can go to Heaven.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

That the first point. The second is that, yes, it is not right to kill a man, even though he has sinned against God. Who are we to presume to take a man's life? God is the Judge and He is the only One who can bring judgement and retribution to man.


"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" Romans 2:1-3

All the predictions in the Bible will come through, Ancestor. None can stop it, no matter how hard we try.


"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

That's all from me for now, I think. :angel:

[Ancestor]

I still think perhaps I should back off this subject for now and thank you for you kind words. No offense was taken but if it has not happened yet then there is still hope. My faith is one where a higher being is willing to give us humans a chance to change, learn, and grow. For myself I do not believe in the Bible a 100% and I have nothing against anyone who believes with all their heart. But I believe it is Joseph whos dreams change the fate of his people. I believe change is possible by the way if I got that wrong please correct me I hate misquoting, thanks. ;)

[ThatIndividual]

I suppose Psalm refers to fear as a form respect, which is expected as a voluntary act, not fear as, say I point a gun in your head which make you feel really intimidated thus you acknowledge my superiority.

Isn't it wonderful how the Bible is SO open to interpretation? Wow! It's as if we can read in it whatever we want it to say!

(Thank you for providing us such an excellent, real life example of that!)

Please note, I do not mean to offend. In fact, I quite like you. I am simple interested in this particular phenomenon. ;)

[fatblueserpent]

But the Bible teaches that man is supposed to fear God. Proverbs says: The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. The very first thing... Fear God.



You say this is the very first thing. The very first of the Ten Commandments, however, was "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3).
These two principles, in my mind, are the very same. I think that fearing God simply means to respect and regard him above all others. It means to fear what God may think of your actions, as opposed to fearing what the world may think of us. Fearing God does not mean that we are afraid of God and how He might punish us, it means that we regard and consider Him above all.

So, when we "fear the Lord," isn't that really the beginning of all wisdom? Surely God is wiser than any being. Respecting His opinion above all others, even making it our own, that's about as wise as it gets.

[Pendragon]

You say this is the very first thing. The very first of the Ten Commandments, however, was "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3).
These two principles, in my mind, are the very same. I think that fearing God simply means to respect and regard him above all others. It means to fear what God may think of your actions, as opposed to fearing what the world may think of us. Fearing God does not mean that we are afraid of God and how He might punish us, it means that we regard and consider Him above all.

So, when we "fear the Lord," isn't that really the beginning of all wisdom? Surely God is wiser than any being. Respecting His opinion above all others, even making it our own, that's about as wise as it gets.Exactly. Fear meaning reverent awe not scared to death. As I said if you scare people to the altar, when the fear leaves them, they'll forget all about God. But if they come in awe of His presence, knowing that He cares for them even though they have done this or that and people don't care, a change can take place in their lives. As for the ressurection, (the word "Rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible, at least not in a King James Version), don't worry about when, just try to be ready to go at any time it may take place. :) :angel:

[ThatIndividual]

These are beautiful angles from which to view this singular and simple, yet complex human emotion. It's interesting how, as Christians, (certainly I've spent a good deal of time looking from that vantage point as a Christian) it's easy to construct the language so as to avoid the negative sounding terms in order to paint an agreeable picture of this fear, reverance, awe, etc.

Take for instance this "fear", and let us imagine that it is a quarter. We describe the profile of George Washington and then, voila, we have described the appearance of the quarter. Perhaps as it lies on the table, we have. But, alas, a quarter is three-dimensional, and not quite so simple, is it? If it were turned on all sides we would be able to see the eagle spread his wings.

This is the same sort of thing. This human emotion, fear, is the same as the emotion we call, awe, or reverence. The term fear has gained a negative connotation somehow, yet still describes the same bodily anxiety that moves a person to action. It's the same anxiety. It's like the word odor. Think of the word odor. Then think of the word aroma. We seem to think of the word odor negatively.... Like foot odor. It stinks, right? Then we think of aroma and we call to mind roses or fresh coffee. That's an accident of linguistic history. In actuality, the words are synonyms. A foot gives off a negative aroma, just as coffee does a pleasant odor. We just get used to using certain words in certain, restrictive ways, and then forget how far they really stretch. It taints our comprehension of the idea that lies behind the word.

Therefore, this "reverent awe" of God, that is at one time positive -- that is, a good thing -- is at the same time, not a different phenomenon from the fear that is common to us. The chemical in the brain that causes the feeling is the same. Indeed, it is the same feeling. The difference lies in our assessment of the fear. If a man holds a gun at your face, your fear is of a danger quite imminant. That's a bit more intense, very different. Other alarms in the mind will sound that do not sound at church, as you fear in awe of God. Still, the fear that is your awe at church is the basis of the more complex, more emergent fear, upon being held at gunpoint.

In short, we use language as a tool to dance around the truth, because to the truth HUMANS ARE RESISTANT. Especially humans who, get ready for this one, claim already to have the truth.

At this point, humans use language to simultaneously dance around more truths, while guarding, and supporting those "truths" in which they already believe, because they are not comfortable without them.

In all things positive, there is some negative. In all things negative, there is some positive. They are inexplicably tied together like light and darkness, or like inside and outside. One does not exist without the other.

[Adelheid]

What do the rest of you think regarding the end times in the Bible? Do you think it will happen? What are your views?

[Outlander]

End times Yes,

Rapture No.

The end is comming, however,
It is we and our freedom of choice
that will bring about our end.

!*Kaboom*! ---swooooosh *poof*

God will sort us out.

[ThatIndividual]

Agreed. Very much agreed.

[Stanislaw]

I certainly mean to offend no one when I state quite seriously, quite solemnly,


rapture schmapsure. :thumbs_up

:brickwall :crash: :mad: :rage: :flare:

lol, just kidding. :D

please carry on with the discussion.

[Ancestor]

Okay, I feel that I should get into this subject again but if I do offend someone please do let me know. I will apologize now and later on if anyone does end up being offended.

I do not hold anything against anyone whom believes in the Bible but I do however feel it can be misinterpreted by humans. If the end of the world is mentioned in the Bible then why could it not be a warning to us. If we continue to be so negative today then are we not part of the problem. Suppose that we were given the information of the end to world to be given to chance to redeme ourselves by preventing it. It is such a bleek morbid thought to me that all life ends and that the universe is left with emptiness. We take responsibilty for ourselves everyday and we think nothing of it because it comes natural. Why can't we take responsibility for keeping our world from ending? We take a negative seed and plant it that seed grows spreading negativity through everything it touchs. Growing until one day there is nothing left for it to touch. Take a positive seed and the same will happen but in order to surivive we need balance. Both seeds are planted but one is slowly taking over the other and hope is slowly dying. I lived a life without hope and personally I would not go back there. One last thought plant a seed of hope and watch it grow.

[Ulalume<3]

The end of the world is not a negative topic. It is like a revolution, overthrowing a horrible government and replacing it with better. Not many will look at an instance like that as a negative thing.

And on the fear topic, sure it can be taken both ways, but putting into context of God's nature, we have to reason to fear Him that way.

[Ancestor]

Why fear him? If God is supposed to be a warm loving one then why fear him? We can have a new beginning without the world coming to a end and to me thinking about doom is not positive. I am not questioning God but man himself on the interpretation of the Bible.

[greenburke]

the Bible says "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge."

[Loki]

Is it really? Are you sure fear doesn't really hamper our natural questioning attitude on life?

And why should we take the word of this particular book as true? Because Christ died for us?

[Loki]

I agree with Ancestor. It is illogical to fear a being who is meant to be "a loving father". It is also illogical that such a loving father-shepherd figure should send the majority of the population to Hell for some reason or another...but that's another story entirely.

Perhaps, however, it's also illogical of me to expect religious belief to be in any way logical.

[Ancestor]

Hey Loki, love your avatar. I am not about to fear someone just because they say I should. Fear is negative and nothing positive comes from it. It is illogical for me to believe I should be afraid of the Great Spirit (God). I would not fear anything anymore been there and done that not a good place. Living in fear has make physically, emotionally, and mentally ill and I won't go there again. I want to be healthy as I know the Great Spirit would also want that for me.

[Scheherazade]

A general reminder:

These threads are for the discussion of religious matters and texts. Please avoid turning them into personal arguments.

Thank you! :)

[Ancestor]

My apologies Scheherazade I will remember that.

[Scheherazade]

Ancestor,

Thank you very much for your understanding.

However, my reminder was not directed towards you personally but everyone who has been contributing to the discussion. During religious discussions, things get out of hand very easily and I had a feeling that this thread was also heading that way.

[Pendragon]

Just a thought, for good I trust. I myself do not look at the end of things as anything except a new beginning, for the Bible speaks of a new Heaven and a new Earth. But I'll toss out this scripture: I Corinthians 15:19 "If only in this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (Thanks for the boost, Ancestor. I would never force my beliefs on anyone. That's why my door is open to whoever wants to come. Christ wouldn't have turned them away, and neither will I.) :angel:

[Adelheid]

I agree with Ancestor. It is illogical to fear a being who is meant to be "a loving father". It is also illogical that such a loving father-shepherd figure should send the majority of the population to Hell for some reason or another...but that's another story entirely.

Perhaps, however, it's also illogical of me to expect religious belief to be in any way logical.

Yes, one would not fear a "loving father" as you put it, but you do not get the context right. God is not merely a loving Father. He is that and much more. God has many personalities and Names. Among them is also a Righteous Judge. He is not going to allow mankind anywhere near him because He is holy, and because He is righteous. We cannot.

You should read Jonathan Edwards' famous: It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of an Angry God. It is excellent, and it placed me back into the right perspective.

God is a loving Father, merciful and compassionate, yes. A big YES to all that. If He was not, He would not have sent Jesus, His Son to take our sins upon Himself and paid for them, so that through Him we can be free. But He has to temper Justice with Mercy. It is not Just to say to ANY Judge "Oh Judge, you are a merciful Judge, so loving and kind. You can pardon me from my sins" (Imagine a murderer saying that) Would the Judge say, "Okay. since I am kind and merciful and loving, I will let you go free." Would he?

Absolutely not! :smash: Mercy needs to be tempered with Justice and vise versa. The Judge cannot allow the murderer to go free, because he has broken the law and he has to face the consequences. It is the same thing. It is because of God's love for us sinners that He gave His Son's life for mankind. What other proof of His love do we need? I certainly do not need any other. :nod: Yet, if we do not accept the help, the covering (man has a choice, God gave them freewill) God cannot force it on us. He will look on You, His heart sad, breaking, as those who reject Him go away, and turn away from Him, nont knowing, and not believing what MUST happen to them hereafter.

This makes sense... sending away a criminal guilty of breaking ALL the laws (for if you break 1 law, you break ALL) free does not. Does a loving Father do that? Would He be protecting His children if He did? No. Perhaps you never knew both sides of it before, Loki, and that's why it didn't make sense to you, why a God whom Christians claim to love you will send people to Hell. This is why. He is not only Merciful and Loving, but He is also Holy and Just. Wickedness in any shape or form cannot come near Him. Our righteousness is as filthy rags too. We can only be admitted into His presence (Heaven) if we are washed by the Blood of the Lamb (figuratively speaking)- the sacrifice which is to take away he sins of the world. Literally speaking, one must accept the salvation that God offers, confess that He does, and believe in it. :angel:

[Ulalume<3]

Well put, Adelheid, thank you

[alter-native]

Theres only one organism on earth that behaves like we do, virus
so you dont need to look at the Bible figure out where this planet
is headed.

[tiny explorer]

yap addy said it all right!i think we should be rational and broadminded as logical as we are!the bible scriptures may be a little vague in one or two readings but it perfectly says thing in place and correctly.right addy... :thumbs_up

[Loki]

Perhaps you never knew both sides of it before, Loki, and that's why it didn't make sense to you, why a God whom Christians claim to love you will send people to Hell. This is why. He is not only Merciful and Loving, but He is also Holy and Just. Wickedness in any shape or form cannot come near Him.

"Holy and Just." Well, if he were just, would there be so much suffering in this world? We computer people we, we're all comfortable and "happy", so to speak. We may lack a few things (such as real happiness) but we are, in general, healthy enough, moderately satisfied, and with a reasonably good (if somewhat pointless) life. But there are so many people in this world who are suffering immensely - children in Africa who don't have enough to eat, people suffering from famine and disease....people with cancer....people with every sort of terrible malady you can imagine.

Now, you will say, that is just because in the beginning, Adam, naive Adam, picked an apple off a tree.

I'd like to point out that Adam couldn't have known that the snake was "evil", that he hadn't been in the world long and (in this perfect garden of Eden) moreover the world he existed in was all pinky rosy. How could he know that the snake was not also friendly?

In the Greek myth of Pandora's Box, it is much the same, but different. Zeus at least warns Pandora not to open the box...but she disobeys. Her natural curiosity (God forgive her!) just would not hold, and she had to satisfy it. And so? The whole world is plagued with death and unhappiness. (Though luckily Hope emerges from the box also.)

But in Christian mythology (correct me if I'm wrong) God doesn't warn Adam about the snake and the apple. And even if he had...is it really such a crime to pick an apple off a tree? [Forbidden fruit tastes best.] Moreover, even if Adam had to suffer for what he had done...my question is, would an almighty, all-loving, holy and just heavenly Father punish generations and generations of people after Adam for something they had no hand in? Since when do we punish people for something their grandfather did?

So much for that. And even if there was no Adam & Eve, the fact remains that there is a lot of suffering in this world, and a lot of desperate people who do not know better than to do wrong, or are simply tempted by animal instinct (which God gave them, aren't I right?). These people who never knew better will be sent, according to the Bible, to Hell. Burning. Forever. Eternally. And why? Because they were born into the wrong environment. After all, if you or I were born onto a pirate ship and grew up among pirates, wouldn't we also become pirates?

And then, God is said to punish even the most ethical people who are often much more moral than corrupt priests and ministers etc. just for using their reason and not believing him. What did Martin Luther say? To "tear out the eyes of our reason, for reason is the enemy of mankind"? (Forgive approximated quote) Because anybody who reasons (like Darwin did) starts to find problems with religion.

Hence creationism, or as they call it, creationist "science" (which is, may I add, sheer nonsense). Twist science in the name of God to make the Bible palatable. Make people believe that grasshoppers are really four-legged even if we can plainly see they have six (of course unless they lose two :D).

I dunno. Moral and just I wouldn't call him. As you said I'm born into the wrong environment. I'm just unfixable Godwise.

Loki

[starrwriter]

Throughout the past few years, I have dwelt on this particular theme. It is becoming more obvious that there is something happening nowadays that has never happened before in the History of the World. Natural Disasters and Catastrophies are occurring more and more, rumors of wars are spreading right around the globe, and war is happening in the Middle East right now. Have none of you thought about it and about what it really means?
Nothing new is happening nowadays. Natural disasters like earthquakes and hurricanes occur in cycles of low and high incidence, so there is no such thing as a "normal year" for these events. And since when HASN'T there been wars and rumors of wars? World War II was the bloodiest in history and we don't have anything that bad going on right now.

The truth is the world ends every day. Then the sun rises the next morning and the world starts all over again. Don't look for hidden meanings where there are none.

[ChuckBukowski]

Ya, believe it or not life has always been pretty scary, not just lately. Anyone remember a little something called "The Black Plague" when half of Europe was wiped out? Educated and uneducated alike thought that the world was ending, that the so called "Rapture" was at hand. All of the sudden a Tsunami, earthquakes and terrorism manage to kill a fraction of the people who died during the plague and everyone wants to think the world is ending. Its all realtive to the times you're living in. It's no better off now than it was during the hellenistic era or the Renaissance or the Industrial revolution. Back in the day we used to plow fields with stone tools and had to shyte in a small hole dug into the earth, but we didnt have to worry about AIDS, car accidents, heart disease or American Idol. Trust me, I talk to God, and he said he hasnt really been paying attention to whats going on down here, what with all the billions of other galaxys to attend to. And he also said that he "doesnt like your tone", he didnt tell me who that was directed towards...he said they'd know.

[ChuckBukowski]

and yes...God is a "he"

[starrwriter]

Trust me, I talk to God, and he said he hasnt really been paying attention to whats going on down here, what with all the billions of other galaxys to attend to. And he also said that he "doesnt like your tone", he didnt tell me who that was directed towards...he said they'd know.

Very funny. And, by the way, they have medication nowadays for people who hear voices inside their heads and think it's God.

[Ancestor]

Earth changes are always happening but when the hit so many times in a row we tend to notice them more. These recent hurricanes and earthquakes could be taken as a sign of the end of the world or that perhaps we should wake up and take better care of our planet. They may even mean nothing at all either way I feel we should do our best to help keep this planet of ours going. Do your part to help keep it clean and I try my best to do my part every day. :)

[Adelheid]

Nothing new is happening nowadays. Natural disasters like earthquakes and hurricanes occur in cycles of low and high incidence, so there is no such thing as a "normal year" for these events. And since when HASN'T there been wars and rumors of wars? World War II was the bloodiest in history and we don't have anything that bad going on right now.

The truth is the world ends every day. Then the sun rises the next morning and the world starts all over again. Don't look for hidden meanings where there are none.

Nothing new, you say?....hmmmm...

No. The DAY ends everyday, but not the world. There can not be 2 endings.

[Adelheid]

Loki,

I don't pretend to have an answer for everything. Only the things that God has chosen to reveal through His Word, that has been taught to me, would I know.

God did warn Adam, as a matter of fact. He told Adam clearly NOT to eat of te forbidden tree. He even told Adam of the specific location of that tree, so as to not have any mistakes. God even told Adam of the consequences. Adam knew. He even told it to Eve. The serpent went to Eve, not to Adam.

Eve ate, and offered to Adam. Despite what He knew, Adam ate of the fruit. God carried out judgment. The sin in Adam is passed down from generation to generation. Whoever is born of man will have sin in him/her. That's why Jesus did not have any sin. He was not born of man, but of the Holy Spirit and from a virgin.

You are right about the pirates being Pirates. ;) That is why God gave His people a command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every nation. Also Ezekiel gives a warning that if we fail to warn the wicked or righteous person of their wrong ways, and they dies, their blood will be on our heads. But if we warn them, their bloods will be on their own heads. So Christians DO have a message to relay, and the consequences of not relaying it is heavy.

[Miss Darcy]

So basically, if you tell us there is a God and we don't believe you, we go to Hell?
Just curious. :)

[Adelheid]

yup... in a nutshell. :D

[Miss Darcy]

But if you hadn't told us, we'd go to Hell anyway? (Assuming we didn't know there was a God.)

[Adelheid]

Yes. But your blood will be upon my head.

[Miss Darcy]

And you'll go to Hell as well? :D

[Adelheid]

I don't know about that. really... :D

[Pendragon]

Ya, believe it or not life has always been pretty scary, not just lately. Anyone remember a little something called "The Black Plague" when half of Europe was wiped out? Educated and uneducated alike thought that the world was ending, that the so called "Rapture" was at hand. All of the sudden a Tsunami, earthquakes and terrorism manage to kill a fraction of the people who died during the plague and everyone wants to think the world is ending. Its all realtive to the times you're living in. It's no better off now than it was during the hellenistic era or the Renaissance or the Industrial revolution. Back in the day we used to plow fields with stone tools and had to shyte in a small hole dug into the earth, but we didnt have to worry about AIDS, car accidents, heart disease or American Idol. Trust me, I talk to God, and he said he hasnt really been paying attention to whats going on down here, what with all the billions of other galaxys to attend to. And he also said that he "doesnt like your tone", he didnt tell me who that was directed towards...he said they'd know.Tell me something, Chuck, on a forum where each person is supposed to have respect for the others beliefs, do you really think that this post is appropiate? The entire tone drips with disrespect. Maybe you didn't direct it towards anyone in so many words, but circumstancial evidence has sent many a man or woman to jail or even to their death. You can disagree with someone, but always ask yourself one very good question: "Is it possible that I could be wrong?" If you believe in a world of infinate possibilities, then........I am not jumping on you, just talking to you man to man, OK? Think about it...... :wave:

[ChuckBukowski]

Telling someone they're going to hell is very disrespectful as well. And I dont buy into the "respect everyones beliefs" frame of thought. Fact is, people have some pretty stupid ideas. I dont respect the beliefs of certain African tribes that mutilate female genitalia at a young age, or terrorists who kill in the name of God, or Christians who wake me up at 9am on a Saturday morning to "share the good word". I thought the point of these forums was to debate ideas, not to respect everyones beliefs. If you really think about it I'm doing everyone a service by being forward and blunt with my opinion. Its people who tiptoe around sensitive topics that allow them to perpetuate into mainstream thought.

[Logos]

Telling someone they're going to hell is very disrespectful as well. And I dont buy into the "respect everyones beliefs" frame of thought. Fact is, people have some pretty stupid ideas. I dont respect the beliefs of certain African tribes that mutilate female genitalia at a young age, or terrorists who kill in the name of God, or Christians who wake me up at 9am on a Saturday morning to "share the good word". I thought the point of these forums was to debate ideas, not to respect everyones beliefs. If you really think about it I'm doing everyone a service by being forward and blunt with my opinion. Its people who tiptoe around sensitive topics that allow them to perpetuate into mainstream thought.

Chuck, there are lots of other forums that cater to people who want to `debate' religious ideas. Admin specifically asks that each and every person choosing to post here be respectful towards others' beliefs, whether you share them or not, it is written right there in the description of this forum on the forum index page.

Interpretation of `stupid' is subjective, there are no absolutes about it. You have a right to your opinion of things `stupid' just as others have a right to their opinions, as long as negative personal comments aren't directed at anyone :)

[starrwriter]

Nothing new, you say?....hmmmm...
I believe the adage that there is nothing new under the sun. It's all happened before, but humans have relatively short lifespans compared to geological and climate cycles.


No. The DAY ends everyday, but not the world. There can not be 2 endings.
Not 2 endings -- 1 ending/1 beginning that repeats itself every day. A day is a circle rather than a straight line. Linear thinking is tunnel vision.

[Adelheid]

True.... nothing new under the sun, but what was hidden before can be manifested in a clearer way, isn't it? That's what's happening now. Christ's return was soon to the early church, and the signs weren't as great. Now, it really is the ending of the end times, if you get what I mean. The sign were always there, but not in this ferocity. Believe me or not, what the Bible says is going to come through... the the next few years (who knows? a disaster could happen today!) great catastrophies will come, of a great magnitude, becoming greater and greater before the returning of Jesus Christ.

That's what I believe anyway. :angel:

[starrwriter]

True.... nothing new under the sun, but what was hidden before can be manifested in a clearer way, isn't it? That's what's happening now. Christ's return was soon to the early church, and the signs weren't as great. Now, it really is the ending of the end times, if you get what I mean. The sign were always there, but not in this ferocity. Believe me or not, what the Bible says is going to come through... the the next few years (who knows? a disaster could happen today!) great catastrophies will come, of a great magnitude, becoming greater and greater before the returning of Jesus Christ.
I just saw a special TV program pointing out that predictions of the end of the world have been made for the past 5,000 years.

So far none has come true. Doesn't that tell you something?

[simona]

and yes...God is a "he"
I think you are wrong. God is not a "he" or a "she".God is....God.
And if you really talk to God, as you say, you should be a wise man who knows a lot of things.You should know the answer to some misteries of the humanity.Do you have those answers?
And why do you think God has chosen you?

[ChuckBukowski]

Did anyone else not get the humorous context of my post or was it just Simona? But back to the topic. What do you mean by "but what was hidden before can be manifested in a clearer way."? and "The sign were always there, but not in this ferocity." Whats more ferocious than a disease which killed 25 million people in a 5 year period? And about 1million people died during the Irish potato famine. And put natural disasters aside for a moment. We do a pretty good job of killing ourselves with all the handgun and automobile fatalities. But on a positive note, wars are generating less casualties. I might be a little worried about all these earthquakes, hurricanes and floods if they hadnt been happening on a regualr basis ever since the Earth developed weather patterns. My advice, If you're that worried about the apocolypse heres a a survival guide
1. stock up on canned goods...dog food is economical and nutritious
2. stock up on water, buy the powdered kind cause it lasts longer
3. cover all your windows and doors with clear plastic sheeting and duct tape them closed, make sure you have an air tight seal...this is very important
4.pray

Dont worry, the rest of us will go on about our daily lives trying to fix all the problems caused by religionists.

[Pendragon]

Whats more ferocious than a disease which killed 25 million people in a 5 year period? And about 1million people died during the Irish potato famine. And put natural disasters aside for a moment. We do a pretty good job of killing ourselves with all the handgun and automobile fatalities. But on a positive note, wars are generating less casualties. I might be a little worried about all these earthquakes, hurricanes and floods if they hadnt been happening on a regualr basis ever since the Earth developed weather patterns.

this is very important
4.pray

Dont worry, the rest of us will go on about our daily lives trying to fix all the problems caused by religionists.So religion is to blame for the bubonic plague and other such devestations caused by disease? Everyone who pulls a gun and kills does it in the name of religion? Car accidents also? Every war ever started? I will agree that some bloody battles have been fought over disagreements about religion. But I had a grandmother who was half-Cherokee. A lot of blood was spilled to sieze land that wasn't able to be bought. While you work on fixing problems please remember religion didn't cause them all. If mankind had never heard of religion in any form, greed, lust, pride, gluttony, sloth, envy, and anger would still reign rampant and man would kill man over little provocation, much like now...sadly....:(

[Scheherazade]

How about the Church campaigning against the use of protection methods which would prevent a deadly disease from spreading?

[Adelheid]

How about the Church campaigning against the use of protection methods which would prevent a deadly disease from spreading?

I have never heard of it???

[Pendragon]

How about the Church campaigning against the use of protection methods which would prevent a deadly disease from spreading?Scher, "The Church", as you call it, did indeed campain against things which could have helped prevent the spread of some diseases. But "The Church" doesn't represent even all of Christianity, much less all of religion. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. A lot of Christians died protesting what "The Church" proclaimed as law.

[Scheherazade]

I have never heard of it???I was refering to this. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html)
Scher, "The Church", as you call it, did indeed campain against things which could have helped prevent the spread of some diseases. But "The Church" doesn't represent even all of Christianity, much less all of religion. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. A lot of Christians died protesting what "The Church" proclaimed as law. Pen, I know that the Church does not represent the whole Christendom; however, as an institution which is there to guide and set example, they do cause more than their fair share of strife.

I am not 'tarring everyone with the same brush' but only giving the Church as an example for the 'unbecoming' things done in the name of religion.

[ChuckBukowski]

Hey Pendragon, Read the whole thread and my previous posts so you will understand the context of what I was saying.

[AimusSage]

It pains me to admit it, but I have infact not read the entire thread, so it is possible this has been mentioned before, but there is a great website that deals with the end times, and all the possible ways it can come to pass.

I would say to take a pick as to which one is your favorite:

http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm

[Pendragon]

I was refering to this. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html) Pen, I know that the Church does not represent the whole Christendom; however, as an institution which is there to guide and set example, they do cause more than their fair share of strife.

I am not 'tarring everyone with the same brush' but only giving the Church as an example for the 'unbecoming' things done in the name of religion.And sadly, I do not even try to refute the fact that things like your article shows happen all the time. I don't condone it, I don't believe the Bible condones it, but sometimes I feel like one man against an ocean. Wrong in the name of right is still wrong, always. No quarrels here, Scher. If it's wrong, it's wrong, that's why I've pretty much had to stand on my own most of my life. If they call it doing the will of God, but what they do isn't right, that doesn't fly well with me. Take it easy. :angel:

[Pendragon]

Hey Pendragon, Read the whole thread and my previous posts so you will understand the context of what I was saying.I have a clear picture of what you are saying, Chuck. You are very clear on that. I took a look at the website you sent me on the other thread. Can't get much clearer than that my friend. I still disgree with you, mon ami, but doesn't mean I have to preach to you what you don't want to hear anyway. You'll never meet someone like me, probably, someone who would still call you friend and mean it, and never give up on you even as you shove me away and call everything I believe foolishness. But I have been where you don't want to go, my friend, and I will still pray. God bless. :angel:

[ChuckBukowski]

I appreciate your prayers, honestly, and I'm not trying to shove you away. Its just that I want you to look at things a little differently. God and religion, I believe, wont be responsible for the destruction of mankind as we know it. Mankind cannot, at this present moment or for the forseeable future, "destroy" a planet. It is impossible for us to destroy a planet. We could dump every single ounce of radioactive, corrosive, toxic non biodegradable substance into the ocean and it would not destroy the planet. We could launch every single nuclear weapon onto strategically pinpointed targets on every single contintent so that every single square inch of the earth is covered in radioactive fallout and it would still not destroy the planet or oraganic life. We could pollute every single square yard of atmosphere with the most noxious gasses and it still would not detroy the plant. Human kind would be detroyed but the planet would go on, life would go on. The earth, like any good organism (the planet earth is an organism) would expell whatever was causing its sickness (us humans) and go on about repairing itself. It takes a few thousand years for a plastic milk jug to disinigrate, the earth has been around for billions of years, plenty of time for the chaos that created it to settle into a stable ecosystem. We might not have time to wait around for that but the earth does. Perhaps Revelations is a fantastic metaphor for what the earth will do itself, or for what we will do to ourselves. Its not God releasing legions of Angels from the sky in an epic battle of good vs evil, but a manifestation of something so perfect and pure, something so incomprehensible that the only way it can be described is through the hyperbolic language of an awed and mystfied culture. We are not Gods most perfect creation, we are not Gods ultimate achievment. But the universe in all of its beauty and horror, its harmony and its chaos, is. We like to look at the world as being right and wrong, good and evil, black and white. But God is everthing there ever was and everthing there ever will be. And it seems we have spent our entire existence trying to interpret the unknowable. I think its time for mankind to step off of the pedestal we framed for being the apex of creation and learn to look beyond ourselves.

[Pendragon]

But God is everthing there ever was and everthing there ever will be. And it seems we have spent our entire existence trying to interpret the unknowable. I think its time for mankind to step off of the pedestal we framed for being the apex of creation and learn to look beyond ourselves.And it seems, we do agree on something after all, mon ami. Precisely how I feel. Try to understand what God is with minds that don't even begin to comprehend the very Earth about us? With minds that still question every single thing we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell? I don't think so. We are but crawling insects in the vastness of His universe! We would make an odd set of friends, I guess, but I'm game. I usually stay in trouble for questioning things myself. Since Jesus went to the common people, not to the established church of His day, maybe I'm not so far out of it anyway! :nod: :nod:

[emily655321]

I appreciate your prayers, honestly, and I'm not trying to shove you away. Its just that I want you to look at things a little differently. God and religion, I believe, wont be responsible for the destruction of mankind as we know it. Mankind cannot, at this present moment or for the forseeable future, "destroy" a planet. It is impossible for us to destroy a planet. We could dump every single ounce of radioactive, corrosive, toxic non biodegradable substance into the ocean and it would not destroy the planet. We could launch every single nuclear weapon onto strategically pinpointed targets on every single contintent so that every single square inch of the earth is covered in radioactive fallout and it would still not destroy the planet or oraganic life. We could pollute every single square yard of atmosphere with the most noxious gasses and it still would not detroy the plant. Human kind would be detroyed but the planet would go on, life would go on. The earth, like any good organism (the planet earth is an organism) would expell whatever was causing its sickness (us humans) and go on about repairing itself. It takes a few thousand years for a plastic milk jug to disinigrate, the earth has been around for billions of years, plenty of time for the chaos that created it to settle into a stable ecosystem. We might not have time to wait around for that but the earth does. Perhaps Revelations is a fantastic metaphor for what the earth will do itself, or for what we will do to ourselves. Its not God releasing legions of Angels from the sky in an epic battle of good vs evil, but a manifestation of something so perfect and pure, something so incomprehensible that the only way it can be described is through the hyperbolic language of an awed and mystfied culture. We are not Gods most perfect creation, we are not Gods ultimate achievment. But the universe in all of its beauty and horror, its harmony and its chaos, is. We like to look at the world as being right and wrong, good and evil, black and white. But God is everthing there ever was and everthing there ever will be. And it seems we have spent our entire existence trying to interpret the unknowable. I think its time for mankind to step off of the pedestal we framed for being the apex of creation and learn to look beyond ourselves.
I think this is very beautiful, Chuck. Well put. :)

[Adelheid]

As a sign that the end is come, there will be total darkness on earth. No light whatever will be found - stars or moon or sun.


"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:29-30

Do you think the "rapture" will occur before or after the rise of the AntiChrist?

[Plastic Martyr]

Ok, My veiw on religion is (and I doubt you wanna hear from a boy who wears make up what his view on religion is but....DEAL) that it manipulates people, the love of "Christ" causes hostle energy for people. I think heaven is the utopian environment in which you go to when you die. All it is, is a wish a safe thought because you are to affraid to deal with "life after death".

I am not an evil non believing person, I have my share of philosophy.
I somewhat follow Anton Szandor Levay, he says you are your own "god", and I believe that is true, I make my own mistakes and goals, and moral values NOT an imaginary spirit.

xoxoxox Plastic!

[Adelheid]

I guess many people view it that way, they haven't formulated their thoughts enough to be able to phrase it the way you put it, Plastic Martyr.

[Miss Darcy]

As a sign that the end is come, there will be total darkness on earth. No light whatever will be found - stars or moon or sun.

Actually, you sound like the theory that says the universe will continue expanding forever. (Personally - as a moral thing - I prefer the "Big Crunch" theory that allows the universe to renew itself, to be born, and die, and be born, and die...basically a cosmic reincarnation system...) If the universe continues expanding at the current rate (though from memory I think the rate of expansion is getting faster), eventually the universe will be a dark, black, lonely place, with all the stars millions of light years away from each other...drifting, drifting, drifting away until infinity...

[emily655321]

I thought the universe was slowing down? Hence the theory that there was something that propelled it in the first place (Big Bang).

[starrwriter]

I thought the universe was slowing down? Hence the theory that there was something that propelled it in the first place (Big Bang).
Cosmologists have convincing evidence that the expansion of the universe is speeding up. You forgot the law of inertia -- that motion tends to continue unless it is acted upon by an opposing force. Apparently, gravity, dark matter, etc. are not strong enough to stop the expansion.

Accelerated expansion may be connected to entropy, the tendency of things to move from an organized to a disorganized state. This is an obsessive-compulsive's worst nightmare.

[Mace Sin]

In my arguement that the End Times aren't coming, I look to many theolegists for support in my skepticism.

"Only a fool predicts when the End of the World has come. Even the Bible states no one knows the hour, and it shall come when everyone least expects it."

"...least expects it."

[greenburke]

Mark 13:32-37 (NIV)

32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "



Mark 13:33 Some manuscripts alert and pray

[Mililalil XXIV]

Have any of you read the Left Behind Series? I have read almost all of them but 'Armegaddon'. I know that it is a fiction book with fictional characters and all, but the events are taken from the Bible, and made into a novel. Still it is a vivid portrayal of what is to come. And reality is always much worse.
I found the order of things, and some of the things themselves (in those books and movies) to be way off from what the Scriptures actually say. JESUS never wished in earlier times to make everything about the near future (our near future) lived virtually before they occurred. HE gave us outlines that were quite general for a two millenium period, and into that framework so much more HE has given that those with HIS Instruction can see come together as a clearer picture, filled with many more details in their respective places in the more general passage of time.

[Adelheid]

You've seen that during the last 2-3 years (particularly the last year) that something IS happening. There have been so many natural disasters and war just in such a short time! There has recently been a cyclone in the Eastern States of Australia, which wreacked quite a big havoc in many families' lives.

It was all predicted 2000 years ago. There will be more to come. This is just the beginning. The Bible makes it really clear, that the population after the the judgments will be only a small percentage of the original. Nobody knows whether he/she will live till tomorrow. Another Tsunami might strike. Or another Earthquake. What about dormant volcanoes? like one that wiped out the entire city of Pompeii in a day? How about another sept. 11? My point is that it is scary- very scary, not knowing with you or I will die. (Thinking about Death is not necessarily being morbid. It is preparing for eternity.) All of us have a choice to choose to believe that there is a heaven and hell after death, or to go on thinking that there is nothing after death, and therefore not prepare for it.

I've made my choice already. Why don't you make yours now? At least you know where you stand. Even if there is no heaven or hell, what have you or I got to lose preparing for it? On the contrary, we benefit. I should urge anyone who asks to make their choices now. Don't wait till it is too late. Too late might be 11pm tonight. Not necessarily 12am.

P.S. Good Works cannot save people. Our sins (lying, cheating, stealing- even little things) all outweigh our "good". Besides God says that there is none righteous, not one. The only righteous one is Jesus, and only He can protect you if you are 'under His wing' (so to speak- to use His name before the Father.) God bless you. :angel:

[ShoutGrace]

In John 16:20-22 Jesus compares the time the world is without him to labor, when a woman is "sorrowful" because her time has come. Yet after the child is born, she forgets all that pain and "anguish" for the simple joy that her baby has been born into the world. These verses give me hope in this post-modernistic society. Things may be awful now, painful, and sorrowful, but it could be forgotten and reconciled in a single moment, that awesome occasion when Jesus returns. That is how wondrous and incredible and momentous his presence would be.

I am by no means a doomsayer or an apocalyptic preacher, but I do wish to fervently echo John's words : Come, Lord Jesus!

[Adelheid]

Don't any of you have anything to say about the End times? Or do you really think there is no such thing? How can you explain the recent catastrophes then? I don't understand how others think.

[Gozeta]

Don't any of you have anything to say about the End times? Or do you really think there is no such thing? How can you explain the recent catastrophes then? I don't understand how others think.


There will be an end to THIS world. For God says," The sky and the land will be consumed by fire." When this happens; the rightous will be with God and the rest thrown in the lake of fire. Then God will CREATE and new heaven and earth. Where we will live by purest of light. Not coming from the sun but from God Himself. Remember, when "this" world is ruled by one man (antichrist); that the end will soon be there...... Take faith; for the reason why it has not happened yet is because God is waiting patiently for others to be saved by His grace. He holds back His anger! Look at how much God loves us!

[XXdarkclarityXX]

There will be an end to THIS world. For God says," The sky and the land will be consumed by fire." When this happens; the rightous will be with God and the rest thrown in the lake of fire. Then God will CREATE and new heaven and earth. Where we will live by purest of light. Not coming from the sun but from God Himself. Remember, when "this" world is ruled by one man (antichrist); that the end will soon be there...... Take faith; for the reason why it has not happened yet is because God is waiting patiently for others to be saved by His grace. He holds back His anger! Look at how much God loves us!

Of course there will be an end. Everything with a beginning has an end. How it will end is debatable, but I personally think we will get rid of each other and effectively kill each other long before anything "natural" does. A hurricane can never affect a population like a war can. I believe that war is the bane of human existence. Nothing will stop that. God isn't waiting for anything, it's just that people haven't found enough ways to kill each other to be effective. Hitler found a way in World War Two, and others will follow him. Burn "Mein Kampf"? I say we need to put that in the hands of every individual who holds any power in this world? Why? They need to see how not to act. Hitler had a PERFECT plan to exterminate an entire race, and he was well on his way before he was stopped. Now, picture this ten times as big with races trying to exterminate each other. Why has technology relating to warfare gotten increasingly better and yet we havent had a real war in 55 years? It's going to happen, and each time the world battles less will be able to be salvaged. What will these wars be over? It could be many things...oil, gold, territory even. The fact is something will jumpstart the worst war that anyone has seen, and no one will claim victory because so many people will die on all sides. It's just a matter of time...

[Scheherazade]

Godwin's Law! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

:D

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Well, then. It seems I have proven a law without even trying. Interesting...

[Bandini]

Throughout the past few years, I have dwelt on this particular theme. It is becoming more obvious that there is something happening nowadays that has never happened before in the History of the World. Natural Disasters and Catastrophies are occurring more and more, rumors of wars are spreading right around the globe, and war is happening in the Middle East right now. Have none of you thought about it and about what it really means?



Tell me you are being ironic!!!! Wars and natural disasters! On EARTH!! Lord have mercy.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I don't think that's what he meant...and to tell you the truth, what he said was more useful than simply making a bad joke i.e., "Tell me you are being ironic!!!! Wars and natural disasters! On EARTH!! Lord have mercy."

Now, have you anything interesting to contribute or have u merely come to revive the horse of bad jokes, only to then kill him and kick him afterwards?

[Scheherazade]

Please do not personalise your comments.

[kilted exile]

Don't any of you have anything to say about the End times? Or do you really think there is no such thing? How can you explain the recent catastrophes then? I don't understand how others think.

These things have always happened. This past year the hurricane season was worse than usual, but they go in cycles sooner or late you will get that 100year storm - Hurricane season this year may be mild.

The questions that should really be addressed (and are at the heart of the problem) is why we hear more about them now, and why they cause more damage?

1) We live in a world now where we have access to news 24hrs a day, this exposes us (ok, some people - it depends what channel folk watch I guess) to more of what is happening in the world. Therefore we hear about events which we wouldn't have known of previously.

2) a) The damage mankind has done to the environment is causing changes leading to more droughts, flooding etc.

b) As the population increases we build more in areas which are susceptible to natural disasters (building on floodplains etc) and cities like New Orleans become more densley populated leading to more people being affected by an event.


With regards to War being a sign the world will end....the Romans were almost constantly at war with someone or other. It's when there is an outbreak of world peace that I'm gonna worry!

[Gozeta]

"With regards to War being a sign the world will end....the Romans were almost constantly at war with someone or other. It's when there is an outbreak of world peace that I'm gonna worry!" by kilted exile

True enough! Ever heard the saying "The calm before the storm."

[Bandini]

Your signature intrigues me XXDark - can you explain?

[XXdarkclarityXX]

My signature is merely a mirror of the interior. Whether that frightens you or makes you further intrigued is up to you. PM me so we may further converse and you may be clarified by the dark.

[blp]

Coo. What larks.

[Woland]

Is the end times tale of Revelations real, or a self fulfilling prophecy, or neither?

[Theshizznigg]

There is a very interesting quote in Genesis, which I believe is the closest on may ever get to a date.

8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Still the bible is absolutely filled with references to the end of the earth.
I personally don't care when it will happen, since it is an eventuality.