English Majors??

[bootyqueen]

Just wondering how many of you out there are English majors....
I'm going back to school for my english degree (to eventually become a teacher)... and I was just wondering what to expect. I looooove reading and writing as it is, and I'm just curious if you found that you enjoyed the works you read even more while in school, or if you got sick of reading after a while....
By the way, I'm new to the forum... I already said hello in the introductions forum, but not in here yet, so greetings!!!

[Countess]

I have a B.A. in English but am working in the technology industry, so...I can't tell you what to expect when it comes to teaching. (--:

T

[bhekti]

I have a B.A. in English Letters but now I'm working for a TV station. I still have hope though that someday I teach literature at school.

[starrwriter]

Just wondering how many of you out there are English majors....I'm going back to school for my english degree (to eventually become a teacher)... and I was just wondering what to expect.

My oldest friend has a PhD in English that took him 10 years to get, but it hasn't done him much good. Although he applied to major universities all over the U.S., the only jobs he found were at what he calls "teaching factories" -- small universities and junior colleges. After 23 years of teaching, he makes only $50K per year. I know carpenters in Hawaii who barely graduated from high school and make more money after a few years experience.

In my opinion an English degree isn't worth much, mainly because there are 10 degree holders for every good job.

[PeterL]

Just wondering how many of you out there are English majors....
I'm going back to school for my english degree (to eventually become a teacher)... and I was just wondering what to expect. I looooove reading and writing as it is, and I'm just curious if you found that you enjoyed the works you read even more while in school, or if you got sick of reading after a while....


I returned to college to finally get a degree after years away from school. I am majoring in English, because it interests me and my best grades, when I was in college before, were in English. The quality of instruction is not as consistently good as it was in the past, and the attitudes of professors toward literature have changed. I am not sick of reading, and some of the instructors like having me around, because I am enthusiastic about reading and writing, and I am relatively knowledgeable about literature. Some of the courses have been excellent, while others have not been, as one would expect. The biggest problem with higher education now is that political idealogy has infected it on the institutional level, and that spills into some classrooms.

As far as preparing one for a job, any degree will do. It is the sheepskin, not the knowledge that most employers are looking for. It is assumed that someone who has a degree can be trained for a job. Of course, some employers are looking for people with specific backgrounds, but outside of technical fields any degree will do.

[OedipusReD]

i'm in my 4th and yes, last year to get my English BA (with honours :banana: ) the readings are hit and miss
the contemporary literature course texts are fascinating but also extremely challenging at times. for the most its good readin'
i'm leaning towards teaching overseas after i graduate then maybe getting my masters, although in what isnt certain (apparently i can get my masters in film studies)
if you go through with it, good luck (especially if you have to teach elementary schools :eek: )

[Basil]

My oldest friend has a PhD in English that took him 10 years to get, but it hasn't done him much good.
If you don't mind my asking, what is your friend's area of specialization?

[starrwriter]

If you don't mind my asking, what is your friend's area of specialization?

I don't recall his master's thesis, but I think his PhD thesis was about modern American literature. He got his master's from Clemson University and his PhD from the University of North Carolina, which are fairly well-regarded schools in the south.

[Basil]

Yeah, I had a feeling it was American lit. I had been planning on pursuing a Ph.D. in that very field until just recently when I learned the job market does not exactly reward a person with those credentials these days. One of my professors told me that the last time my university had a job opening in American literature, it attracted over 1200 applicants. 1200.

So, I'll have my MA by the end of the school term, but if I want to enter a doctoral program, I'll need to start sending out applications within the next couple of months. I am, as they say, torn.

How many mid-life crises can a person have before they are actually middle-aged?

[Monica]

I'm 2nd year major in English and American literature and I absolutely love it. A lot of reading, a lot of writing. Obviously some of the stuff is pretty boring but all in all I really enjoy it. English literature, American literature, Canadian culture and literature, English history and culture, literary theory.... It's great :D

[starrwriter]

How many mid-life crises can a person have before they are actually middle-aged?
I had my first at the age of 19. I've had to reinvent myself 4 times in my life to stay one step ahead of penury. It's a rat race out there. Government cheese, anyone?

[Kiwi Shelf]

I am a third year English major. It can be fun, and then not so.

[jon1jt]

You might consider scraping the English degree altogether or college for that matter. College courses pose an enormous strain on the true reader. You'll be forced to read so much garbage pawned off as real literature; and more and more professors are caught up in propagating their own worldview inside the classroom rather than collectively exploring the text. Problem is fewer and fewer English students actually do the assigned readings and come to class prepared. That's been my experience anyway. Many professors loath grading and students papers routinely get a perfunctory review at best. The level of classroom discussion has dumbed down, emphasizing a reader's "feeling" with little to no serious textual criticism/analysis. The best college to attend is
"U-University"...a curriculum devised of your own readings. That is, reading books you want to read when you want and at your own pace. I highly recommend checking out the syllabus at St. John's College in Md./NM, "the" best liberal arts college in the country. And if it's lectures on the great books you crave or feel you'll miss out on, go to the public library or to www.teachco.com where you can obtain college lectures from the best classrooms in America. I have a Ph.d ABD status in political science (which I quit!) and am happy to report that much of the lecture information provided in their history, politics, philosophy, and literature sets I never heard in my own college experience! Darn shame for me, but you still got a fighting chance! Good luck to you, really.

[PeterL]

Don't scrap the college degree. A college degree is equivelant to a high school diploma of 40 years agho. It is the minimum needed for a good job.

[bootyqueen]

Like I said, I'm getting me English degree to become a teacher, you need a base degree to enter the Master of Teaching program at the Univeristy of Calgary. I don't intend to use the Englsih degree alone to get a job...

[jon1jt]

Valid point about a college degree having the value of a high school degree of 40 years ago. I guess part of my frustration is that most colleges, which include grad programs, are diploma mills, where the primary "worK" requirement is paying your tuition bill on time. I have met people with a masters in just about every area of social science and humanities and many hadn't ever read many of the primier works of their discipline. Yet paying back up in the range of 30K in student loans (60K with interest!). Can you imagine the great books they could've bought with that?!!

[PeterL]

I think that it might be good to look at an undergraduate education as an opportunity for people to sample one or more discipline. How much anyone gets out of education depends more on the individual than one the course of study or the instructional personnel.

Unfortunately, it appears that people can also get higher degrees without being exposed to the breadth of any field. Graduate programs are about tight specializations.

[starrwriter]

Valid point about a college degree having the value of a high school degree of 40 years ago.
When I was a teenager in my small blue-collar hometown (and dinosaurs still roamed the earth), a high school diploma was seen as a ticket to the good life because a lot of kids never graduated and only a few rich kids went to college. I was considered a wonder boy genius because I graduated a year early at age 17 in the top 20% of my class. Things have changed radically since then. Today most kids want to slash their wrists if they can't get into some diploma-mill college. The ironic part is, even with a college degree, they could end up asking customers if they want fries with their order.

[lavendar1]

The ironic part is, even with a college degree, they could end up asking customers if they want fries with their order.

I agree. And now for a question: What do you think about low-residency MFA programs in creative writing? Supposedly the MFA is a terminal degree. And I'm wondering, is it terminal in the sense that it's the 'highest' one can go in the field (presumably opening up doors to wonderful opportunities in teaching creative writing at the college level, etc.) OR is it terminal in the sense of the possible/probable after the fact realization that now-you've-wasted-25K-and-two-years-of-your-life-for-what?

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm considering such a program and I'd love to hear from anyone who might have experiences to share. Somebody once said (Epictitus, maybe?), "If you wish to be a writer, write." And I'm thinking...can anyone really teach anyone to write, anyway? Perhaps one is better off just churning out writing, sending it out, and hoping to encounter a good editor somewhere along the way.

[jon1jt]

Good question lavender. There's a terrific article pubished this summer in Harpers written by a well known contemporary writer who teaches college writing - mostly graduate - and she really comes down on writing programs. It's a cover article so it won't be hard to miss. I really don't think an MFA is going to have much market value, to be honest. If you're a great writer, your work WILL BE recognized. It may be a long, painstaking process, but in the end it's the work - and the craft - that counts. Consider that some of the greatest writers had little to no college -- let alone an MFA, which is a modern invention. In fairness to the academy, as an MFA student you might benefit from its community setting; an opportunity to interface with writers and forge friendships that can reap dividends down the road if you're looking for a job in the industry. There are also some terrific and far less expensive on-line workshops that offer lectures, books, asignments, and the structure, community and feedback to "complement" your writing ambition. I have close to a Ph.D in international affairs and I could have learned more subscribing to some journals and newspapers, really. In his "On Becoming a Novelist," writer John Garder urges writers to connect and work within a writing community as feedback on your work is indispensible. He said that in the 1960s, before the internet. I'm sure he'd be shouting from the rooftop to join an online community. May Sarton in House by the Sea, which I'm reading now actually, had no college and when invited to an Ivy College to accept an honorary doctorate, she quipped that it felt good knowing that "I did it on my own!" Good luck to you!

[lavendar1]

Consider that some of the greatest writers had little to no college -- let alone an MFA, which is a modern invention. In fairness to the academy, as an MFA student you might benefit from its community setting; an opportunity to interface with writers and forge friendships that can reap dividends down the road if you're looking for a job in the industry. There are also some terrific and far less expensive on-line workshops that offer lectures, books, asignments, and the structure, community and feedback to "complement" your writing ambition.

Thanks for the insights and tip on the Harper's article - I'll check it out.

Such a shame though that in our society, credentials are a precursor to credibility. It's not that I resent people who have credentials (well, yeah, I'll admit it - sometimes I do), but it seems that if a person doesn't have a ton of often meaningless letters after their name, it's assumed they couldn't possibly really know much of anything. And we keep buying into this mentality; perhaps the somewhat oxymoronic term 'educated idiots' applies to the lot of us -- those who engage in the neverending quest for credentials that probably won't deliver and those who (for whatever reason) refuse to stand up against it.

[starrwriter]

I agree. And now for a question: What do you think about low-residency MFA programs in creative writing? Supposedly the MFA is a terminal degree. And I'm wondering, is it terminal in the sense that it's the 'highest' one can go in the field (presumably opening up doors to wonderful opportunities in teaching creative writing at the college level, etc.)
...can anyone really teach anyone to write, anyway?
Not in my opinion. You have to teach yourself -- by writing and reading, trial and error experimentation, etc.

There's an old saying: "People who can write write. People who can't write teach writing."

[PeterL]

There's an old saying: "People who can write write. People who can't write teach writing."

No, The full saying is: Those who can do; those who can't teach, and those who can't teach teach the teachers.

[jon1jt]

[QUOTE=lavendar1]
It's not that I resent people who have credentials (well, yeah, I'll admit it - sometimes I do), but it seems that if a person doesn't have a ton of often meaningless letters after their name, it's assumed they couldn't possibly really know much of anything. And we keep buying into this mentality...

Great point!! The need to decorate ourselves with college degrees and tout it on our sleeves comes from a sort of "herd mentality," to quote Neitzsche, which is based on the idea that "they" and not "me" know what's best for "me." You see, once the herd has packaged the message and it becomes the gospel according to the herd, the project of defining and deepening social distinctions is completed. Case in point: When I was doing my Ph.D (which I later abandoned), I was assigned to teach an undergraduate class in a subject outside my field of interest. I voiced my concern to the chairwoman in terms that I didn't feel informed enough to lecture before 80 students on the topic. She answered: "Realize that from day one you have the upper hand going into the class...the students already assume that you're smarter than they are." Sure enough, I taught the class and received rave reviews from the students, not because I knew the subject matter extremely well, but because I followed the chair's scheme to the tee. You see, people pursue advanced degrees first and foremost because they believe that reaching their own desired level of success is far too difficult or impossible without first receiving the institutional validation. (I'm sure you all have come across these types in your lifetime...those who lack dedication and/or talent, yet have the proper "qualifications" and so are rewarded) This sort of thinking, however, is neurotic.

Plenty of great thinkers/writers never obtained an advanced degree or four-year degree! Abraham Lincoln was self-taught. Henry D. Thoreau earned a four-year degree from Harvard, but never attended his commencement nor picked up his diploma, which he saw as window dressing. When Thoreau returned home from college, he went to work in his father's pencil factory and it was only a matter of days before the townsfolk belittled Henry for failing to "doing something with his degree." Little did they know. Jack Kerouac also followed his own course, quitting Columbia University after his second year to devote his life to writing (he started with joining the merchant marine). Ever hear of that little book, "On the Road" which is the sixth all-time best selling Penguin Classic and also in the new Penguin '1018 Greatest Books' Collection? (See Amazon.com) I never found one iota of doubt reading Kerouac's "Letters" that he wouldn't become a great writer. He never once felt pressured into returning to college, even while he was living hand to mouth and receiving one rejection letter after another. I wonder how many writers today in the same situation would forego massive student loans for an MFA. Check the annals of history: Even Robert Frost quit college and all his life openly spoke out against college as being a waste of time for the serious writer.

Until we are able to get from under the weight of the deluded formula that "degree denotes intellectual talent," and see the degree for what it is: an instrument of psychological oppression against the truly ambitious; many will continue to justify spending tens of thousands of dollars "On a degree you could have earned for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library." (Good Will Hunting) I say, Write! Write! Write! :as-sleep:

[Scheherazade]

Going back to the original intention of the Forum:

I'm going back to school for my english degree (to eventually become a teacher)... and I was just wondering what to expect. I looooove reading and writing as it is, and I'm just curious if you found that you enjoyed the works you read even more while in school, or if you got sick of reading after a while....I studied English Language and Literature along with Teaching at university and enjoyed it thoroughly. Reading for classes were never boring because I found the discussions and lectures very 'enlightening' and stimulating. I still love book discussions (which is why I enjoy being part of the Book Club on the Forum).

As for job prospects... I was lucky in a way that I studied English in a country where English is not the main language so after graduation, I was able to choose from various career options available like translating and teaching (I did both simultaneously).

For those of you who study English in the US or the UK... You can consider going to another country to teach EFL (English as a Foreign Language) or ESOL (English as a Second Language). Most Embassies have cultural programmes which offer English courses for the natives of the countries they are located. I have American/British friends who have worked in Japan, China, Turkey, Pakistan, Mexico and some European countries through these programmes. Once you graduate maybe you cna consider this option; you would travel round the world while gaining teaching experience, which could be a lot of fun especially when you are still young.

[lavendar1]

I returned to college (after years of working in federal service) to 'add on' a teaching certification to my credentials, and now teach in the public schools. The experience of taking the required courses was sometimes boring yet always challenging. But since I love literature - reading about it, talking about it, and writing about it - it was worth it, to me at least. And now I'm invigorated daily (as well as frustrated at times) in dealing with the young people with whom I try to share that love of literature.

Still, the point about the 'credentials race' is one that should seriously be considered by anyone who's either in it or is contemplating joining up to it. Reality (as a movie of not too long ago said), bites, sometimes in the wallet -- as when we go after advanced degrees for the sake of, and sometimes realize sadly after the fact that we cannot accomplish our goal of employment, and are stuck with only a piece of patting-us-on-the-back paper, and a debt that will impact our ability to have even the basics of life. I know I'm going to think before I move into any more academic programs, and I would advise anyone else to do the same: Think for yourself.

[Koa]

How many mid-life crises can a person have before they are actually middle-aged?


LOL good question... I think I'm at my 3rd or 4th one and I am only in my 20s...:rolleyes: :D

I am about to graduate in English (and Russian), asa foreign languages that is, but I am starting to feel it's useless... I don't want to be a teacher, I don't think I'm qualified enough to do translation (and I'm wondering how can a translator get experience cos I doubt that they like to give many jobs to a non-expert translator), I think I need a specialisation but I don't know which one I want... reading job offers seems that they only want people who studied some marketing and such...and I didn't cos I don't like it :(

[miss tenderness]

hello booty i'm senior in my univ studying English literature:)happy that u joined us ,enjoy the forums

[A Hard Rain]

Don't forget that you can educate yourself while your going through the college experience. True you may not like the debt, and you might be able to learn the material as thorough without the credentials. But you can learn it just as thorough while getting the credentials. Sometimes people have the fear that they will be 'institutionalized,' that they won't be able to think for themselves while in a particular program. This isn't true. You are very capable of elucidating your concerns and insurgent views against your professors, schools, or authorities. Capable of thinking for yourself in the face of idiots. You don't have to be in a vacuous cold-water flat to be a writer or keep your perspicacity. That is just the fogginess of your silly mind tethering you down in idolization of some old writer etc.. I'm saying: Lets not forget it can be done either way; the world will react to your attempts differently.

[Schokokeks]

It is incontestable that job opportunities for English majors or Classics major or, generalizing, for most humanities majors don't look very bright these days. Universities can only offer places to about half the applicants for these courses, employers often seem to postulate a range of qualifications others than 'just' literary ones, a degree in Business Management, for instance.
How come?
Is it that our postmodern society (if it may be called like that...) is merely asking for qualifications and job perspectives that are useful to the community? Is it due to the prevailing opinion that degrees such as Biological Chemistry and Molecular Medicine are of greater use than the one of a graduate in Comparative Literature that History or English majors are less demanded than they were in former times?

Even if this is true, in my opinion this is absolutely no reason for not to enter university or college and pursue a degree in humanities if one really wants to.
My overall goal is to study English and French and to become a professor at university. I come from the smallest and most narrow-minded village imaginable, my parents do not support my wish to go to university and I have absolutely no idea where I should get all the money from that I will need. Yet I'm writing my applications anyway, working retail and waitressing at every free hour and working my way through about a hundred of scholarships that might help me.
Everyone keeps telling me that I should better apply for some course such as Marine Biology or Veterinary Medicine but after having passed some sort of crisis or state of not-knowing-where-to-go-now, I came to the blunt conclusion that this is just not what I was made for. Although career opportunities may look dismal, studying literature and languages and passing my verve on to others is what I really want!
Even if I won't be making big money and even if I end up in a small college in the middle of nowhere teaching Shakespearean sonetts and Greek theatre to a couple of barely interested teenagers, so be it. Then I will do my very very best for the maybe one or two pupils in my future classes who are as passionate about literature as I am. And I will have done what I've always wanted: studied literature, and not spent my days in a subterranean laboratory, but tried to touch the borders of my mind and deriving a lot of joy from what I do because I can do it with all my heart.


I'm saying: Lets not forget it can be done either way; the world will react to your attempts differently.

Very well said, A Hard Rain! Couldn't add much more except
"...and still, failure does not vitiate the sincerity of the attempt." (Paul Auster:Moon Palace).
Slight comfort, but yet one!
Let's go for it!

[LightShade]

Schokokeks, what you wrote is absolutely wonderful :)
This is true passion.
If you have such a calling, then it would be a real shame to go into something else and I wish you the best luck with your scholarships and studies.
If all teachers out there would be as passionate about their subject as you are about literature, I believe education and its effects on students would be different - i.e. positive. The human dimension of education is of utmost importance and, unfortunately, many fail to understand that. So it is that we have teachers who do their job just because they believe there's nothing else they can do and not because they have a passion for it. It's just a job for them and lack of passion makes it a bad job both for themselves and for their students.

I was an English major (minor - Spanish) and I truly believed I could not be a good teacher. I didn't feel any calling and I didn't enjoy the activity in itself (we had to have some teaching practice hours during our final year). So I chose not to go into teaching at all. There are also other jobs available for someone who holds a BA in two languages - translation is one, even if the start may be a bit difficult; second, working your way up in a company from a secretarial or assistant position is not a bad career start.

[A Hard Rain]

one more note is that of course education won't get u anywhere without the effort or ambition. At times i don't have the ambition, to obtain useless and pointless knowledge. But then there is no outlet of expression. So i am studying by myself and attending college in January. Words are the most addictive drug of man. - Rudyard Kipling... or someone.

Insight is great, but only the great have been able to express it.

And maybe the keenest insight is able to see through the futility of expression, but i'm not that perspicacious.

Kind of like buddha denying bliss to come back and show the people?

**** if i know, its 12:30 pm and i'm drunk.

One more thought...

The worst thing about the last temptation is that your doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. -- T.S. Eliot.

[Koa]

Even if this is true, in my opinion this is absolutely no reason for not to enter university or college and pursue a degree in humanities if one really wants to.
My overall goal is to study English and French and to become a professor at university. I come from the smallest and most narrow-minded village imaginable, my parents do not support my wish to go to university and I have absolutely no idea where I should get all the money from that I will need. Yet I'm writing my applications anyway, working retail and waitressing at every free hour and working my way through about a hundred of scholarships that might help me.
Everyone keeps telling me that I should better apply for some course such as Marine Biology or Veterinary Medicine but after having passed some sort of crisis or state of not-knowing-where-to-go-now, I came to the blunt conclusion that this is just not what I was made for. Although career opportunities may look dismal, studying literature and languages and passing my verve on to others is what I really want!
Even if I won't be making big money and even if I end up in a small college in the middle of nowhere teaching Shakespearean sonetts and Greek theatre to a couple of barely interested teenagers, so be it. Then I will do my very very best for the maybe one or two pupils in my future classes who are as passionate about literature as I am. And I will have done what I've always wanted: studied literature, and not spent my days in a subterranean laboratory, but tried to touch the borders of my mind and deriving a lot of joy from what I do because I can do it with all my heart.




This was also my thought at your age, plus I had the luck of having parents who supported me and are proud of it.
But now I'm at the end of it, and I've always known I don't want to teach... I have always liked the idea of translating, but I don't feel I have the qualifications for it... My English is good but who would care, with a stupid 3-year-degree and no experience?I'm starting to send CVs to translation offices cos I have to start somewhere, but I'd be very surprised if any of them bothered with me... As for the other languages, that's out of discussion, they're nowhere as fluent as my English...and for English there is a lot of competition already.
All I see in job offers are requests for people who have knowledge of marketing, economics, sometimes law... (and German or Spanish besides English... which I both know very little...). All I can do is try to make up my mind about specialising... I also sometimes think of some kind of career in diplomatic areas, or in international organisations... not as a politician or such, but in offices or as interpreter/translator... But again, the useless 3-year-uni-that-everybody-can-do-without-even-reading-all-the-texts wouldnt probably be enough to be taken seriously yet... But where can I gain some experience if that is too little to start anything?


When I was a teenager in my small blue-collar hometown (and dinosaurs still roamed the earth), a high school diploma was seen as a ticket to the good life because a lot of kids never graduated and only a few rich kids went to college. I was considered a wonder boy genius because I graduated a year early at age 17 in the top 20% of my class. Things have changed radically since then. Today most kids want to slash their wrists if they can't get into some diploma-mill college. The ironic part is, even with a college degree, they could end up asking customers if they want fries with their order.

Very true. At least here, anyone goes to Uni (cos there's usually no entrance exam, anyone can go) and that in my opinion lowers the level. When I started Uni i was aware of the possibility of it being useless, but I thought I was doing it for myself, who cared if I then got a crappy job, at least I studied what I wanted for my own satisfaction... But now I don't want to get away with any job without trying to get something I want and that has to do at least slightly with my studies (or doesnt, but it's abroad, therefore implies using English or another language)... sure I'd adapt if it needs to, but first I want to try, it doesn't cost much to try for a few months before going into the fries&ketchup business I guess...

[Countess]

Okay, everyone on this thread has taken the words out of my mouth. It is difficult for me to communicate my thoughts on this topic, because I have so many arguments to produce, but first and foremost, I will say without the humanities (and language) there would be no Plato, no Aristotle, no Socrates, no poetry, no art, nothing to inspire and fill the heart with joy.

When art speaks to the heart, it produces a divine spark in us. It elevates our souls to new levels, and we comprehend more about our universe, our world, our fellow man and ourselves. There is nothing in Chemistry, Biology or Physics that can replicate this experience, and if Aristotle is to be believed (Metaphysics) this is the greatest thing to which man can aspire.

Many will argue utilitarian function outweighs aesthetic quality, but I say that God clearly delineates what he values most, for he first was Creator God and built not just a world that works, but a world that is beautiful.

T

[PeterL]

Okay, everyone on this thread has taken the words out of my mouth. It is difficult for me to communicate my thoughts on this topic, because I have so many arguments to produce, but first and foremost, I will say without the humanities (and language) there would be no Plato, no Aristotle, no Socrates, no poetry, no art, nothing to inspire and fill the heart with joy.

When art speaks to the heart, it produces a divine spark in us. It elevates our souls to new levels, and we comprehend more about our universe, our world, our fellow man and ourselves. There is nothing in Chemistry, Biology or Physics that can replicate this experience, and if Aristotle is to be believed (Metaphysics) this is the greatest thing to which man can aspire.


Applause, Language and literature are fundamental to all other knowledge, including the hard sciences.

[Koa]

Okay, everyone on this thread has taken the words out of my mouth. It is difficult for me to communicate my thoughts on this topic, because I have so many arguments to produce, but first and foremost, I will say without the humanities (and language) there would be no Plato, no Aristotle, no Socrates, no poetry, no art, nothing to inspire and fill the heart with joy.



T

I agree...I personally dislike a lot anything that has to do with sciences and practical stuff...which are needed to, but I can't find the slightest interest in them..
...though when you find yourself looking for a job, you realise that if you had adapted to those, your quest would be easier, and if you liked them, you'd find more easily something you like...

I've followed my path of humanities till the end, and I was proud of it till now...when I'm so confused that it makes me scared of having chosen the wrong way in this too, as usual.

[A Hard Rain]

Countess you really wear on me with God this and God that. As a basis for communication we use words-- concepts of thought to communicate to one another. Understanding the definitions of these words is fundamental to discernable communication. I don't understand what God means. It is most probable that it is the consummate of ambiguity, an abstruse word, a sullied concept which is in no way clear to me by what you mean. I mean this in the most sincere and polite way; I don't get it. I realize you only mentioned the word once. It is my latent confusion from previous threads. Please explain your concept of God or faith or whatever it is. You seem to be a truly interesting person and it would be to my delectation to maybe better comprehend our trivial meanders on the board!

[PeterL]

Countess you really wear on me with God this and God that. As a basis for communication we use words-- concepts of thought to communicate to one another. Understanding the definitions of these words is fundamental to discernable communication. I don't understand what God means. It is most probable that it is the consummate of ambiguity, an abstruse word, a sullied concept which is in no way clear to me by what you mean. I mean this in the most sincere and polite way; I don't get it. I realize you only mentioned the word once. It is my latent confusion from previous threads. Please explain your concept of God or faith or whatever it is. You seem to be a truly interesting person and it would be to my delectation to maybe better comprehend our trivial meanders on the board!

Hard Rain, I love the way that you wrote that. Most of that post in poetic, metrical. If you edit it well and carefully, you will have a piece of high grade poetry.

[pcockey]

I'm a double major in English and history, and I want to go on to grad school for folklore & mythology. Ideally I'd like to teach, but the nice thing about this particular choice is that it opens up a few different opportunities to me (museum work, etc.). Yeah, I'd be incredibly happy specializing in Victorian literature, but I figured I'd go with something a bit off the beaten path to give myself a bit more wiggle room--plus the impression I've gotten is that for this kind of a specialization, I'll have a much better shot with teaching jobs than I would with lit.

[jon1jt]

[QUOTE=Schokokeks] My overall goal is to study English and French and to become a professor at university. I come from the smallest and most narrow-minded village imaginable, my parents do not support my wish to go to university and I have absolutely no idea where I should get all the money from that I will need. Yet I'm writing my applications anyway, working retail and waitressing at every free hour and working my way through about a hundred of scholarships that might help me.

I'm just going to guess that Schokokeks is in her early to mid-twenties. I wanted to do cartwheels after reading her fiery speel about working in academia, even if it means, Schokokeks says, slaving as a waitress, etc. and transforming herself into a person of letters working as a professor in Siberia? I feel we've all been a bit dupped into this grandiose idea that "going to college" is our BEST bet, when in fact scores of college grads are working full-time for $7.00 an hour without benefits while deferring tens of thousands of dollars in student loans!! English majors fare even worse! I hope Schokokeks is saving her tip money for the exorbitant cost of doing a masters and doctorate, which takes an average of seven years. I should know, I've done them. Don't take my word for it; check out the college debt burden nowadays.

"College may not provide me gainful employment, but what's important to me is the college experience, knowledge for knowledge's sake." Would somebody please clarify for me why institutionalized learning has become the paragon of such knowledge? Look at the college admissions standards today. Got a pulse? You're accepted! Even the so-called Ivies are dumbing down --- bent on their multicultural quest sacrificing all-toO-often raw talent for diversity, capital "D". (I acknowledge the importance of such...it is a bit absurd, however, how qualified people have been sacrificed FOR THE SAKE OF). One member supposes that people can pursue their own interests while attending college. In other words, you don't have to sacrifice "anything" to "the" institution. I respectfully disagree. One I've all ready mentioned is the god-awful debt factor. Second is we live in a finite world. Most students have to work and maintain a social life. With the rest of the time given over to writing papers, reading "their" books (most often rubbish), commuting, going for lunch with mom, brushing one's teeth; is there even time to read Aristotle's Metaphysics on one's own?! Reading the newspaper...huh?

I'll leave you with the words of Will Hunting said to that pompous-*** Harvard-wanna-be-intellectual: "You dropped $150 grand on an education you could have got for a buck-fifty in late charges at the public library."

[Schokokeks]

I'm just going to guess that Schokokeks is in her early to mid-twenties. I wanted to do cartwheels after reading her fiery speel about working in academia, even if it means, Schokokeks says, slaving as a waitress, etc. and transforming herself into a person of letters working as a professor in Siberia? I feel we've all been a bit dupped into this grandiose idea that "going to college" is our BEST bet, when in fact scores of college grads are working full-time for $7.00 an hour without benefits while deferring tens of thousands of dollars in student loans!! English majors fare even worse!
Even worse, I'm sweet 18.
Actually, prospective debt due to college education is what scared me most about embarking for university. This is even more frustrating if the time spent in college didn't turn out to be worthy of these hours and hours of 'slave work'.

I'll leave you with the words of Will Hunting said to that pompous-*** Harvard-wanna-be-intellectual: "You dropped $150 grand on an education you could have got for a buck-fifty in late charges at the public library."
That actually is my most favourite movie ever!! :D Really a good one.
I guess I, too, am looking for 'the college experience' that can't be obtained by a walk through the local library. I'd like to share my thoughts with others, discuss igniting ideas and to really deeply dug into a topic, yes, all that idealistic trinket I'm desiring from my bright-naive point of view. Yet even if all my hopes will be disappointed, if all my college experiences will be marked by institutionaliyed learning, over-crowded and tedious lectures and if I won't meet one single amiable fellow student to share ideas and lunch breaks, and if I won't be working with one interesting professor, and if I will never be able to say 'now, this really made my day!' on campus, then at least I've tried and opted for what appeared most compelling to me.
...And, one of my greatest wishes for my future, hopefully I won't wind up in a public bar generously displaying my oh-so-admirable-Harvard-education as did that slimy guy in the movie, but rather treat some guys to a drink ;)

[pcockey]

I look at it this way: I'm a pretty useless individual so far as actual marketable skills go. Someday I want a job I can enjoy. I'm not worried about being rich. I'm far more concerned with being happy. And if I need a piece of paper to do that, then I'll get it. And if I can't get a job? Better to have some hope of it than to give up on it altogether.

[jon1jt]

Even worse, I'm sweet 18.
I guess I, too, am looking for 'the college experience' that can't be obtained by a walk through the local library. I'd like to share my thoughts with others, discuss igniting ideas and to really deeply dug into a topic, yes, all that idealistic trinket I'm desiring from my bright-naive point of view. Yet even if all my hopes will be disappointed, if all my college experiences will be marked by institutionaliyed learning, over-crowded and tedious lectures and if I won't meet one single amiable fellow student to share ideas and lunch breaks, and if I won't be working with one interesting professor, and if I will never be able to say 'now, this really made my day!' on campus, then at least I've tried and opted for what appeared most compelling to me.
...And, one of my greatest wishes for my future, hopefully I won't wind up in a public bar generously displaying my oh-so-admirable-Harvard-education as did that slimy guy in the movie, but rather treat some guys to a drink ;)

Well said. I'm only the messenger; and of course, "my" experience is my experience. Perhaps it'll turn out better for you. I have been besieged in my academic career by wanna-be intellectuals, right up through my Ph.D work. I was fortunate to get a teaching assistantship/fellowship, which paid tuition plus $15K annual stipend for four years to carry me through. Still, I have enormous debt from grad work --- where I towed the line and marketed myself as a "worthy" member of the Worldview Club. Anyway, in retrospect I wish I hadn't done it -- jobs are hard to come by and I'm teaching middle school English at a snot-rag private school. What I think you're searching for is an intellectual community and I don't want to destroy your hopes, but college is the not the only intellectual place, and consider cost, again. Average college tuition debt is like $30K and law/med is 100K and climbing!! This is obscene!! Today, I pay a flat $300. fee to audit Ph.D courses at a top university in NYC, and in a conference room setting, consisting of only 8 students and a professor, I encounter the most intellectually-stimulating discussions! I'm also a member of a writing group in NYC and have met better writers there than any college campus. And most don't have a degree, yet have published extensively. There are other options, but unfortunately society doesn't give credence to those I just mentioned. Only the ones with the big price tag. Realize it's all driven by the egomaniacal or people who acquiesce like those who proclaim they're willing to "take a shot" at any cost. I'd like to see those same people when their monthly tuition statement comes in, when they're at a different stage in their lives, and they want to buy a house and go on vacation and so on. But, oh, almost forgot, the credit card. :-) Good luck to ya!

[lil]

I'm actually an English Major in Hungary (look for that tiny country next to Austria on the map; )
Most of us here are studying to become language teachers. Still, we have to read all (or almost all) that you have to read there...
But, personally, I'm really enjoying it. (Okay, I know I'm a masochist.)
My only problem is that I don't have much time to read any Hungarian books lately (which are also great)...
Here you don't have to pay tuition unless you already have a degree. However, the cost of living is quite high (and the prices of the textbooks can be quite shocking at times... but there is the good old library; )
Fortunately I have a boyfriend who supports me now, but it wasn't always like that. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't be attending university at all. I would probably be working as an assistant or sth like that... answering phone calls and writing letters instead of my boss who doesn't speak English. I would hate it! :sick:

[super_maz]

hey guys, im kinda new to all this forum business because i never really saw the point of it, but then i discovered this site and it acutally had INTELLIGENT people and INTERESTING comments and im like wow! lol.
so anyway, im starting uni next year (hopefully i will get onto my desired English literature course!) and unfortunately stressing out about debt! especially since the tuition fees have gone up to £3 000 per annum (thanks a helluva lot mr blair!!) but thankfully i'll be able to get a loan out and stuff.
im just wondering, the students in the US, do they have to pay similar tuition fees as us English? my friend lives in the US and she said that its going to cost her an arm and a leg to go to uni (she does not have a green card yet so maybe thats why).

anyways, im kinda nervous about starting uni in case i dont enjoy the course. how are all you literature student out there finding it so far??

[pcockey]

especially since the tuition fees have gone up to £3 000 per annum (thanks a helluva lot mr blair!!) but thankfully i'll be able to get a loan out and stuff.
im just wondering, the students in the US, do they have to pay similar tuition fees as us English? my friend lives in the US and she said that its going to cost her an arm and a leg to go to uni (she does not have a green card yet so maybe thats why).


That's about equivalent to going to a state university here, if you live in the state. Going to what is considered a "good" school costs up to $30,000 a year (halve that and you've got roughly the equivalent in GBP). I'm seriously considering school in the UK in a few years, for many reasons, one of which is that it's less expensive.

[super_maz]

whoa, thats so expensive! compared to that university in England is not such a bad prospect :) so would it cost even more to go to a good university in another state (one that u dont live in obviously)?

[PeterL]

unfortunately stressing out about debt! especially since the tuition fees have gone up to £3 000 per annum (thanks a helluva lot mr blair!!) but thankfully i'll be able to get a loan out and stuff.
im just wondering, the students in the US, do they have to pay similar tuition fees as us English? my friend lives in the US and she said that its going to cost her an arm and a leg to go to uni (she does not have a green card yet so maybe thats why).



Only L3000 per year!!!! I assume that that is the total cost. Total cost to attend a state university in the USA rauns between $12,000 and 20,000. A private college would set somone back more than $40,000.

[super_maz]

well i suppose in comparison £3 000 is not that bad, but u have to take into account accomodation costs etc. i worked it out and arrived at the conclusion that if i go to study in York (my first choice) it will run up a debt of about £27 000 (thats tuition fees, and living costs). its gona take me ages to pay off all the stupid loans i have to take out! :( when my older brother went to uni, he only had to pay about £1,500 a year! (oh and my parents paid for him to go!) HOW unfair is that?! lol i get the raw deal.
oh well, ill go to uni and then get a cushy job and be rich and pay it all off... lol i wish! *dreams*

[PeterL]

Regardless of where you go there will be living costs. Subtract about $8000 per year from the figures I wrote earlier for the tutition and fees only. I would love having to pay only about $3600 per year, plus living costs.

[Koa]

I guess I, too, am looking for 'the college experience' that can't be obtained by a walk through the local library. I'd like to share my thoughts with others, discuss igniting ideas and to really deeply dug into a topic, yes, all that idealistic trinket I'm desiring from my bright-naive point of view.




I have already stressed you about how disappointed I am about my studies in Italy, and on this point I'm telling you clearly: i don't know if this too depends on being in this stupid country, but I found University the least intellectually stimulating place ever. I was much more stimulated at school... I used my brain back then, while at Uni I ended up becoming (only on my last semester...I endured it a lot eh?) another of those people looking for the shortest path to do things. Noone cares about getting some education at Uni, all people talk about are theyr boyfriends and what was on tv last night. I am one of the few people I know who took exams of literatures by actually reading the books, and reading them in English (Ok I skipped Tom Jones but I really disliked it...) - the others mostly read just some, or even none, and in translation. Again I think it depends on the system here, which doesnt encourage working and using your brain: if you can pass your exam without reading, and even getting a better mark than people who did read the books therefore do know what they are talking about instead of having learrnt what someone else said, then why bother?
Uni is what made me become un-intellectual...I only hope that being out of it I'll get my brain back...

This is why if I study more, I wish so much to so it in England. Or in Eastern Europe, where I think the level of University education is wonderful and the cost of life is lower.
(in Italy we dont even have loans... well I think nowadays we do but very few people bother with them cos you are likely to end up with debts and no job, for various reasons... So most students work. The fees are not as high as in UK and USA but we find them really high, especially cos we get pretty much nothing back: a terrible education and not even good structures.)


I'm actually an English Major in Hungary (look for that tiny country next to Austria on the map; )

Can I ask you where are you studying? I spent a wonderful semester in Szeged, where I proved all my theories about Uni being more serious than in Italy. English lit. was actually taught in English (unlike in Italy), classes were small (I mean, in number of people) and the students dont have to be passive like in Italy, but actually can, and often have to, use their brain, by writing papers and such (which here we do only at the end of our studies).

I wish I had thought about studying abroad :( (well then there would have been problems like higher fees and having to pay for accomodation and all, but maybe they could have been solved...)

[Koa]

Regardless of where you go there will be living costs. Subtract about $8000 per year from the figures I wrote earlier for the tutition and fees only. I would love having to pay only about $3600 per year, plus living costs.

Depends on the system... here in Italy a lot of people just choose an Uni in their city (in many cases not basing on what they want but on what their city offers) so that they can live with their parents and not have extra expenses. Well, I did that too, meaning that I wanted to do Languages & Literatures and did it in my city (even if now I realised that other cities had better Unis), but I didnt want my parents to pay me accomodation (as it's the norm here, very few students manage to support their studies entirely, especially if they include a rent)... But I know people who wanted to do something else but chose something that was here cos they couldnt afford to move. Of course people from villages or from areas far from Uni have to move, but there also many people travelling for one hour or more everyday to go to Uni.

[starrwriter]

Only L3000 per year!!!! I assume that that is the total cost. Total cost to attend a state university in the USA rauns between $12,000 and 20,000. A private college would set somone back more than $40,000.
If you attend a smaller state university in the state where you live, tuition can be a lot less than $12,000 per year. People I knew only paid $1,500 per year at the University of Hawaii at Hilo, which has a student population of about 3,000. It's a four-year university, but of course the degrees aren't worth as much as degrees from the main UH campus in Honolulu where 40,000 go to school and the instructors are paid more.

In my original home state, Michigan State University was a "cow college" (state school started as an agricultural college) that had a fairly good academic reputation. And tuition was much less than the University of Michigan.

[starrwriter]

I have already stressed you about how disappointed I am about my studies in Italy, and on this point I'm telling you clearly: i don't know if this too depends on being in this stupid country, but I found University the least intellectually stimulating place ever. Uni is what made me become un-intellectual ...
Then perhaps it's not a total waste of time. Too many people graduate from college over-intellectualized, but reality-challenged in the everyday world.

I found the college experience to be whatever you make of it. I lived off-campus and thus avoided the juvenile idiocy that goes on in dorms. I paid no attention to the social trappings of student existence and I lived a normal life. I focused on improving my learning skills and it worked. Learning how to learn is the most important lesson of college, not the trivia teachers try to cram into your head.

[Koa]

What starr said is true tho... even if it made me lose any intellectual skill I had (:(), at least I gained in experience...though I still have no practical skill which will help me face the world, but I've at least learnt in practice how this country (and possibly many others, but I have no experience of it) works: the smartest gets everything, the honest and hard-working ones, if they are not smart will just get what's left...

[PeterL]

Depends on the system... here in Italy a lot of people just choose an Uni in their city (in many cases not basing on what they want but on what their city offers) so that they can live with their parents and not have extra expenses. Well, I did that too, meaning that I wanted to do Languages & Literatures and did it in my city (even if now I realised that other cities had better Unis), but I didnt want my parents to pay me accomodation (as it's the norm here, very few students manage to support their studies entirely, especially if they include a rent)... But I know people who wanted to do something else but chose something that was here cos they couldnt afford to move. Of course people from villages or from areas far from Uni have to move, but there also many people travelling for one hour or more everyday to go to Uni.

You should have gone to Bologna. Umberto Eco still gives some lectures there.
Even if you are living with your parents, there are costs. The cost isn't as much out of pocket, but there are costs, including that you would not be in constant content with other students.

[PeterL]

If you attend a smaller state university in the state where you live, tuition can be a lot less than $12,000 per year. People I knew only paid $1,500 per year at the University of Hawaii at Hilo, which has a student population of about 3,000. It's a four-year university, but of course the degrees aren't worth as much as degrees from the main UH campus in Honolulu where 40,000 go to school and the instructors are paid more.

In my original home state, Michigan State University was a "cow college" (state school started as an agricultural college) that had a fairly good academic reputation. And tuition was much less than the University of Michigan.

I posted off the top of my head, but I just searched for some data and discovered that what I thought was typical is actually the high end. Average for all costs, including housing for state colleges and universities was about $12,000 in 2004 and only $27,000 for private colleges. There is a huge range. There is one state college system that has a nominal price for tuition and fees, while the high end for state universities is higher than the low end for private colleges. The top end for private colleges is significantly over $40,000 now. http://www.collegeboard.com/article/0,3868,6-29-0-4494,00.html Article about this years costs.

I believe that both Michigan State Univ. and University of Michigan are land grant colleges, but Ann Arbor is the showplace campus for the state.

[A Hard Rain]

I spent some time on this, and if you have followed this thread at all...
please give it due justice.

*deep breath*

Michigan born and raised. Still here. I have a semi-affluent father who tells me he'll pay for my tuition and board wherever i go. What luck.

However, we have strayed from our topic. In the begining it was a questioning and now it is slandering. Maligning the institutions that supply a very important service and piece of paper.

A piece of paper. You can't have the job otherwise. That is the way it works. Oh you would like to be Faulkner? Hemingway? Fitzgerald? or your french i'm sorry, then Camus. But this is not right, we are talking about english majors none of which are previous. It doesn't really matter anyway. You can teach what you learn in college. I'm sure your capable of that. All you are is an instructor.

For those more idealisitc, maybe you are not just an instructor. Maybe you view yourself as an individual being who loves literature and is moved by your soul and with this invigorating communion, you may have the ability to imbue or impregnate your students with the same desire or intelligibility that moves your essence to dance the fandango.(bolero,macarena etc.)

And maybe you are.

Or maybe you are someone who finds literature poignant, interesting, significant, moving...

Or Maybe you have a little of that alcoholic philosopher in you questioning everything driving yourself into derrangement. I heard they like literature too. (excuse my stereotypes.)

Basically, we need to get back to topic.

And the basis of this topic is education, personal interest and of course....
money. (recognition later)

High earnings are largely a function of choosing the right field. Or, as Warren Buffett said in an annual report years ago, it is far better to be ordinary in a great business then to be great in a mediocre business. Smart men and women in finance and corporate law always grow rich, or at least well-to-do. Incredibly smart men and women in short-story writing or anthropology or acting rarely do.

Of course, not everyone wants to work in finance or law. Those are tense, difficult fields with combative people in them. But they do yield immense material benefits, will not be outsourced anytime soon and are likely to offer a decent retirement. Work at what you like, for sure. But go in knowing that certain fields pay much better than others.

Another thing I want to mention is that I view college as only a subsidairy education. It is not the instituition that will make you a learned man, but rather, a support with which to spring yourself. You want sagacity? This takes effort, infact it may take something more complex than effort. It may take a disease, a derrangement of morbid thought. An addiction of ambition, fear of ill-repute.

What I mean, is, you are complaining about a college education... if you think an instituition can take the masses and churn out ingenious folks like butter, well, obviously, this isn't possible in our society today.

Money talks. And i've seen it. It doesn't talk, it swears. You want recognition? Too bad, you won't get but a scarcity of acknowledgement in a liberal arts field. The money isn't there. I am a wet-back at a local chop house. I don't see many english majors come in. In fact, I work along side of one. A private school teacher who gets payed the same as what I do at his school. And all I do is sweat. With his second job at the resteraunt, he usually makes more than me on average. But there are many young business men, and young women. The women are pretty wonderful.

But that piece of paper. Do you think, my dear student, that this course or class or experience alone will make you more perspicacious? We musn't be so silly now, we are on a literary forum filled with tons of introspective intellectuals, who will question what you say. (excuse my stereotypes)

It is a pathless path.

I don't necessary know what all of you are seeking... but you won't find it outside of yourself. Maybe you just want lower interest rates on your student loans. More power.

Honestly, I'm worn out with people saying, GOSH, i'm not ENLIGHTENED after arriving at college. It don't work that way. You've got yourself, and you've got to figure out what'll work for you. There is no syllibus.

As far as me, in case you wonder, (about to bask in the limelight)
I don't have a damned clue. I don't know what I will go into. It will take some thought and some drinking and some lechering with young college girls before I am going to necessarily decide my major. Or my PH.D. OR WHATEVA. Luckily, I am not so closed off to different areas to enclose myself in the box of 'i'm going to be an english major because that signifies who i am.' Literature, Business, Science, and Math interest me. Photography and music. Film. Medicine and biology i have a great admiration for, but, i don't know if i could do it. (forget that left-brain right-brain bull**** they taught you.)

Lastly, I don't know ****. Not a clue.

I might end up as some suicide down the road.

It really bugs me when you all start slandering something that you thought was going to be your end all be all of problems, your purpose in life. Your english major, with all your literature loving friends sipping tea in a garden full of jocund gaeity, understanding one another fully. A convivial gathering of some picturesque Disney cartoon featuring Alice. No, those blithesome thought-dreams could not be illusions. (excuse my stereotypes)

I just realized i have a coffestain on my keyboard. A jaw-line that could chisel stone.

I still say, do what you like, but understand the fiscal implications,(if that is important to you, and don't be jesus about it, be honest) and know that in doing what you like, your apptitude or the mysterious wisdom-well may not manifest itself through a college class alone.

And forget all of my mindless platitudes, and don't try to find a meaning in all of my drunken rambling at 3:22 in the a.m.

And if you ever get the chance to dance the fandango or bolero... please do. These terms bewilder me. (...I know the macarena)

P.S. My best friend goes to Duke, pays between 40 and 45K$... a year.

POST. SCRIPT. SCRIPT. I'm not entirely sure, i'm not there yet...
but it may be possible to pursue an understanding of literature while attending other interesting, more lucrative fields. And you may get more out of the when you bring it to you.

[lauraicp]

indeed, institutions do not automatically make you wiser or luckier. it is a matter of "good or bad fortune". life is hard. they say friends can help you go on, get over bad things. can they?
having that piece of paper is not going to offer you too many opportunities, when you major in english.

[Koa]

You should have gone to Bologna. Umberto Eco still gives some lectures there.
Even if you are living with your parents, there are costs. The cost isn't as much out of pocket, but there are costs, including that you would not be in constant content with other students.

Well we don't actually have a campus-system so it's not like I would have lived in a dorm and shared that kind of life... Sure, I would have lived with other students, which would have been lovely.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Uni should give you enlightment...I just find it curious that it was the least stimulating experience of my life, where I've met the most opportunists and realised that what you are worth doesnt matter, in any field, and that those who work hard or, god forbid, have passion for what they study, are fools.

Btw I know a girl who's an exchange student in Birmingham now, from what she tells me the system there it's wonderful...they have assignments (kinda like school!) and stuff, by which they really learn a language, and by which, as she put it "you have to think with your own head". Which is the main difference with how it works here: the least you think, the better it seems to be...

[PeterL]

Well we don't actually have a campus-system so it's not like I would have lived in a dorm and shared that kind of life... Sure, I would have lived with other students, which would have been lovely.

I realize that. It is a mixed blessing. Having crowds of students together leads to an excess of not attending to studies. But having many people interested in learning together can also lead to everyone learning more.



Anyway, I'm not saying that Uni should give you enlightment...I just find it curious that it was the least stimulating experience of my life, where I've met the most opportunists and realised that what you are worth doesnt matter, in any field, and that those who work hard or, god forbid, have passion for what they study, are fools.


You definately went to the wrong place. Any place where you might go you would find a variety of people, but it is sad that you found it the least stimulating experience of your life. I returned to a university after many years away and was pleasantly surprised to find people who are real scholars who were truly interested in giving students an opportunity to learn something. I will admit that there are many professors who don't really have anything to teach, but they are a minority.



Btw I know a girl who's an exchange student in Birmingham now, from what she tells me the system there it's wonderful...they have assignments (kinda like school!) and stuff, by which they really learn a language, and by which, as she put it "you have to think with your own head". Which is the main difference with how it works here: the least you think, the better it seems to be...

I recently learned about how most European universities are set up, and I was amazed. There are students who will learn without much, or any, direction, but most people need to be shown what is available and how to put the information to gether so that it is usable. There was an article in the Economist recently about attempts that are now being made to reform the university systems, so that students will be more likely to learn something.

[kilted exile]

Ok, I've been going through this thread, and I have to disagree with some of the comments about college being a waste of time.
Firstly with regards to people finishing college and ending up in a dead end job working for the minimum wage, I do not disagree that this happens however I am sure that the percentage of people with no further education working min. wage jobs is far higher than that of people who have finished a diploma/degree.

Secondly, at what stage does the education become pointless? I know in my english classes in highschool we did solely literature analysis from the age of 15 up. Should I have ended my studies and gone to the library then?

Also, you may get the same education from a library, but unfortunately employers like to see pieces of paper which unfortunately only colleges/universities can give out.

[PeterL]

Secondly, at what stage does the education become pointless?


Well after hell remelts after it freezes over. Education is eternal. It has no end.

[A Hard Rain]

and it's useless.

[jon1jt]

[QUOTE=A Hard Rain]
Honestly, I'm worn out with people saying, GOSH, i'm not ENLIGHTENED after arriving at college. It don't work that way. You've got yourself, and you've got to figure out what'll work for you. There is no syllibus.

I think that's why many have a grievance against a college education, because of the propaganda instilled in us from K thru 12 to the grandiose idea that college is "the" way, that it is "the" syllabus, only four years later to realize we're 50K in debt with little to show for it, besides having, at best, read some good books (mostly excerpts!) and the understanding it didn't make a whole lot of sense in the first place. We ARE enlightened after arriving to college more than we think: to know it was a scam is a sense of that enlightenment...so you ought not to feel "worn out." I concur that the want of money and a liberal arts education are incongrous. But, that's part of the American Lie, the propaganda that the added benefit of going to college is to eventually "get a good job." Again, more often than not, it's those who bask themselves in the project of institutional learning, who wear letters on their sleeves, who normally are the most insecure about their god-given talent, and ought to be. I still believe in the idea that effort counts; that we live in a meritocracy, that the best and brightest in every field will emerge, irrespective of one's education. Hey, consider Robert Frost; he didn't earn a college degree.

[PeterL]

People get out of education what they put into it. Bring educated, at any level, is not a passive activity. It isn't like television, where predigested images a shoveled at the viewer. Education involves actively criticizing information as it is presented and looking for connections among different types of information from different sources.

Education is more an attitude toward the world, rather than a process of gaining knowledge. Education requires that new knowledge be assimilated, and related with other information, and it should to be done constantly through every waking hour. The people who spend hours cramming for an exam without learning the material, without making it part of their understanding of the universe, defeat the purpose of education, and ultimately they defeat themselves.

[starrwriter]

and it's useless.
Useless for what? It isn't spiritual enlightenment, but it helps to make a decent living if you get the right kind of degree.

Not everyone should go to college. Too many students don't really want to be there and they're wasting their time and their teachers' time.

[Koa]

I still believe in the idea that effort counts; that we live in a meritocracy, that the best and brightest in every field will emerge, irrespective of one's education. Hey, consider Robert Frost; he didn't earn a college degree.

I believe in the opposite (and I have no clue of who is Robert Frost).. sure there are people who got far without a degree, cos they did have the talent and the luck... but there are many bright people who never get anywhere, even with a diploma...while people with less merit and a bolder face do get far...


Not everyone should go to college. Too many students don't really want to be there and they're wasting their time and their teachers' time.

That's kinda true...as PeterL said, a lot of people don't assimilate what they read, it's just something to forget the day after the exam... The same at school of course, but then Uni is a different thing...you should have a harder motivation for it.

[LightShade]

Not everyone should go to college. Too many students don't really want to be there and they're wasting their time and their teachers' time.
I find many students go to college/university just to get a piece of paper saying they graduated some form of higher education and it doesn't matter what subject they choose, or if they like it or if they have a calling for it. At least, that's the case here.
For example, a lot of people go to study chemistry or physics or geography (because entrance is much easier, in some cases you don't even have to take exams) just to get that graduation paper, and then go into other fields of work, totally unrelated. Looking at job ads, I couldn't help noticing employers often request a university degree for a starting position and sometimes it doesn't matter what field it's from. The general idea is higher education and the exposure to the academic environment does expand people's minds and my guess is that's why employers prefer university graduates, irrespective of their field of study.


but it may be possible to pursue an understanding of literature while attending other interesting, more lucrative fields.
that's what my father told me :D and he was right. But that depends on what level of living standard you settle for. If you can live with less, then you can be a teacher.

I went to study English and Spanish because I liked it and, frankly, it just came easier to me than other fields of study. Yes, me lazy :p The lectures and exams were held in the respective language, and we also had lots of assignments, which I didn't actually enjoy, as there was a lot to read for each subject and sometimes I couldn't cope with the volume of it. But it was nice, and I still liked it (except the theory of language part). However, upon graduating, I felt (for quite some time) that I had made the wrong choice. I could have studied business or maybe theater or maybe architecture... that is, more lucrative or more interesting fields. However, I realized at some point how much I missed the literature courses and seminars and then I knew I had made the right choice, as far as calling was concerned, except it wasn't very lucrative unless I started a translation agency (and I have no talent for business, so I didn't). I got my first job as an assistant manager and started to learn the skills needed in the business environment.
I have a job that pays the bills and allows me to live a good life, and have kept literature as a hobby. Both reading and writing. If one day I get published and start to make a living off it, that'd be a dream come true. But I'm not going to be a starving artist waiting for a break :rolleyes:
As regards reading and persuading other people to read, it can also be done as a hobby. I don't see why, just because one is not a "legitimate" teacher, one cannot teach ;)

Oh, and one more thing: of course you can write without studying literature at college/university level. But I found a good understanding of literary theories (as dry as some of them may be :D ) comes in handy sometimes.

[Koa]

However, upon graduating, I felt (for quite some time) that I had made the wrong choice. I could have studied business or maybe theater or maybe architecture... that is, more lucrative or more interesting fields.

Welcome to my world... Well there's nothing I find more interesting than the study of languages and literatures (and cultures and history)... but now I'm not sure what to do of it.. I'm just torn between taking any job that comes, or look for something related to what I studied (and that therefore I'd probably like)...which is what I'll probably end up doing at least at first, then adapting if I dont find anything... basically, the question is between adapting or pursuing dreams...
I'd probably like translating for example, but I'd need a better qualification for it I suppose... It's really hard to find which direction I want to take, and I am very nervous cos some of my friend just seem to be content of what they got even if it's not related to their degree... though they ofte declared that they werent too passionate about it, while I cant imagine my life without foreign languages (and literatures)...

[jon1jt]

I believe in the opposite (and I have no clue of who is Robert Frost).. sure there are people who got far without a degree, cos they did have the talent and the luck... but there are many bright people who never get anywhere, even with a diploma..[QUOTE .while people with less merit and a bolder face do get far... [/QUOTE]



I'm really curious to know whether KOA has a college degree...I'd like to make a point, but I'll wait his/her response first.

[Koa]

:rolleyes: Well I know that my points can be easily debated, but I am in angry-phase so I'm taking off my mind all of my disillusioned thougths... I am about to graduate at University and not excited about it, I wish I had done it in a different way or rather in a different place... I have never ever understood what's the difference between college and University but this should be an answer. Anyway I guess the problem here is that I shouldnt compare systems and cultures that have nothing to do with each other cos most of my friends share my thoughts including the one quoted above.

[lil]

Can I ask you where are you studying? I spent a wonderful semester in Szeged, where I proved all my theories about Uni being more serious than in Italy. English lit. was actually taught in English (unlike in Italy), classes were small (I mean, in number of people) and the students dont have to be passive like in Italy, but actually can, and often have to, use their brain, by writing papers and such (which here we do only at the end of our studies).

sorry I haven't answered earlier... I haven't been around much lately... (you know... autumn break and all that ; )
I attend ELTE (Eötvös Loránd University) in Budapest... http://www.elte.hu/en/index.html
...I would say it's pretty much the same as JATE (József Attila University) in Szeged... the only difference is that it's a bit more difficult to get admitted to ELTE...

[Koa]

Cool... well I didnt have to be admitted there since I was an exchange-student... (admission to Uni, another concept that my mind finds quite exotic).

[maymo]

I'm still a University student majoring in English in China. Though I love literature, I still can't understand some novels well.
I like to be a teacher, teaching English in our country.