Do you feel everyone should believe the same?

[Ancestor]

I am not accusing anyone of trying to convert but it appears that some of us whould like to have us believe the same way as they do. For me I do not want to force someone else to believe exactly as I do nor do I see anything wrong with being Atheist. I do know that some of us are trying to speak from our hearts to enlighten our knowledge of faith. But it seems to me at least they we have a problem with letting people walk their own spiritual path or even walk a path of life without a spiritual path. All questions are yes answers in the poll. What is your opinion.

[bhekti]

It would be nice If all believed in the thing I believe in. It's not a matter of being alike or similar. I want people to believe in what I believe just because I don't want them to get any troubles because they don't believe in it. But, I know it can't be forced. It must not be forced. It has to be believed in, not forced. If some people can't believe in it, it is because they can't; they don't get the thing that would make them able to believe in it, though they may believe in other things. So there is something else that one must get first before one is able to believe in anything.

[Pendragon]

Ancestor, I will only say this. No one has to see things my way. No one made me a barometer or a measuring stick for humanity. What I may think or feel does not change the universe. I try not to proselyte, but I guess there have been times it seems that way. I can't really apologize for wanting people to see what I see, because it is so beautiful and real to me. Nor can I blame others for wanting to change me, for their vision is just as lovely to them. It comes down to this little word which all of us need to learn by heart: RESPECT :nod: :nod: :nod:

[subterranean]

Gee ancestor, I'm truly sory for saying this, but I never thought such Q raised from someone like you...;)

My answer: absolutely NO..

[Ancestor]

First pendragon I hope I did not offend nor meant to imply you were forcing your faith upon me. I asked these questions to see better into what people truly felt about their own faith and others. If I do offend someone though please do point it out because I will make it right. :D

[Pendragon]

First pendragon I hope I did not offend nor meant to imply you were forcing your faith upon me. I asked these questions to see better into what people truly felt about their own faith and others. If I do offend someone though please do point it out because I will make it right. :D Rest easy, my friend. I am not so easily offended any more, thank God! I think you and I have had some very insightful little chats, for which I am grateful. May you find that that you seek... :wave:

[bhekti]

but, the truth is only one. How then?

[Ancestor]

but, the truth is only one. How then?
Do you mind if I ask what faith you are? Please expand on your question how then? I would like to make sure that I do not misunderstand you before answering.

[Ancestor]

Rest easy, my friend. I am not so easily offended any more, thank God! I think you and I have had some very insightful little chats, for which I am grateful. May you find that that you seek... :wave:
I am glad because the last thing I want is to offend anyone here. Cool avatar Pendragon, like it.

[bhekti]

Do you mind if I ask what faith you are? Please expand on your question how then? I would like to make sure that I do not misunderstand you before answering.

You won't misunderstand me. I like you. I like everybody here in this forum. No, you won't misunderstand me, Ancestor.

About my question,... People have different beliefs and they think that is fine. But, I was thinking that since the truth is one then there should be one belief, that is, the belief in that one truth. So, to the question "do you feel everyone should believe the same?" one must answer "yes". Otherwise, one must believe that the truth is not one, but many. (Gosh, I think I don't make myself clear :sick: )

What faith am I? Deconstruction...perhaps.

[subterranean]

Fact is not...otherwise we woudln't have this thread in the first place...



but, the truth is only one. How then?

[IrishCanadian]

Truth would be subjective if more than one "truth" existed. Yes it is true that I am at the cumputer, and also true that my cat is outside; these are more than one co-existing truths. However, truth itself, as an entity, cannot be subjective. If you are to say that "It is true that nothing is true." It would be the same as saying "This statement is false." Do you see the connection? It cannot be TRUE that nothing is true if nothing is true. You would be wrong either way. Therefore I say, yes we should all believe the same thing. Even "not faith" is a faith: it is a faith in nothingness. I think that "not faith" may even be a greater leap of faith then some popular religion such as the Judeo-Christian beliefs because it presupposes human superiority as infallable. At least I think it does (correct me if i'm wrong here please, we would all appreciate it).

On another note, the reason I am always willing to argue with someone about my religious beliefs is not to convert them, but to defend myself and learn more about what I believe. There is a sort of subtle attack (not insulting attack in any way, unless it is meant to be which is seldome) in every blow taken by the religious institution i belong to, which is Catholicism by the way. I feel that in a religous debate I can learn how wrong I might be. An economist once said "When the facts change I change my mind." (I wish I could recall his name) As far as I've debated over what I believe, the facts have never seemed to change. So I teach when I can by debateing.
At the end of the day I agree whole heartedly with Pendragon: respect is key. Otherwise none of us earn anything.

[Loki]

but, the truth is only one. How then?

We so often see only one side of the truth. The truth encompasses all, good and bad, little and big, black and white - all opposites are really one.

As Hamlet says, "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

There is never just one side of the truth, either.

And as to the poll: I voted yes for "Do you feel we should have all kinds of Faith?" as well as for "Do you feel that it is alright not to have faith?" - Being an atheist the latter is a matter of course. But I think that some people find faith necessary to their lives, and that since everyone is different everyone has a different faith, religion, or system of beliefs. I believe that religion can make a life richer, as long as it doesn't hamper one too much with words, because words are like thoughts, and can be so easily misunderstood. Eastern spiritualism especially seems to me to be a path into universal awareness; but everyone must find their own path. Each of us has potential perfection inside ourselves, and the brilliant thing is time - time the way we see it - is just a concept, that all exists simultaneously, like a river is everywhere at the same time.

To anyone interested, I'd recommend reading Siddharta. ;)

Everyone has the right to their own beliefs and faith; we shouldn't try to convince or convert other people to think the same way as we do.

Well, that's my two cents, anyhow.

Loki

[IrishCanadian]

Siddharta was an excelent book indeed! I'm just curious as to how good and bad don't exist just because they both happen to be true. Even Siddharta found bad things in life. Enlighten me, I'm interested.

[A Hard Rain]

I will convert you. At all Costs.
You may come willlingly.


P.S. I'm coming after you Ancestor.

[Ancestor]

I will convert you. At all Costs.
You may come willlingly.


P.S. I'm coming after you Ancestor.

What makes you think you can convert me my Father has been trying that for 38 years now to no avail. Besides most people consider me either a which or Devil worshiper to each their own. ;) I have my own faith and if you a male and single I will not stop you. :nod:

[Ancestor]

Why do you feel we need to convert A Hard Rain? Why do you think we do not believe the same if that was a higher beings true wish? Just a couple of questions. See I feel that we are not all meant to walk the same path as others and today I got a shock of my life. Someone's faith showed me that I am grateful for not believing the same as she does. She stated that anyone woman alone with a man whom is not a husband or boyfriend was asking to be raped. NO ONE ASKS TO BE RAPED. I know because I surly did not ask for a adult to do that to me as a child. They said that was different though and I got upset with the statement not my friends. You see they never experienced that and for that I am truly grateful. Rape does not care whether you are alone with the opposite gender or in a room with a hundred people. Does not matter if you dress conservative or not conservative or whether a knock or plain Jane young or old. There is no emotions to the act itself and they did not understand that. I for one know that what we see as truth is not always the case. Thanks for reading and sorry if this got too deep.

[Nightshade]

Someone's faith showed me that I am grateful for not believing the same as she does. She stated that anyone woman alone with a man whom is not a husband or boyfriend was asking to be raped. NO ONE ASKS TO BE RAPED.
ohh can I say somthing just dont take itthe wrong way ok?
I took in my psychology class last year a phenomeum (spellinghttp://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif?) called the Just world Hypothesis (JWH) the idea is that manypeople cannot deal with random occuring evilness or the fact that bad things can happen to you even though you dont deserve it. And so in order to protcet themselves ( and this is a subconsious act ) and the idea that everything is fair they find away to blame the victims this is most often the case with rape and strangly if the victim is a virigin then she is more likly to be blamed then someone who isnt.
I dont realy get it but it does make somekind of sense "bad things dont just happen you have to be bad for somthing bad to happen" blame fairytales.


but, the truth is only one. How then?
the truth is only what is seen as the truth at any one time the truth does not exsist its a concept
for example (actually this is a rotten example but my ususal one is way to political to get into)
Back when they thought the earth was flat (which FYI they never did) it was flat to all intents and purposes this was the truth- a truth.
Now weve seen the earth is globular it is the truth it is a truth. but both wre true in their times.
see?

as for the real question I dont know I dont think its my place to convert people until I know more about my own beliefs. Ibelieve its not my place to decide who will go to heaven or hell thats Gods job not mine and Ill just keep working at helping myself and anyone whoasks for help rathr than messing wityh people who have already decided what they want to be or who are still deciding.

[Pendragon]

I will convert you. At all Costs.
You may come willlingly.


P.S. I'm coming after you Ancestor.
And you've already made a giant leap in the wrong direction.
Mark 9:38-40 "And John answered Him, saying, "Master, we saw one casting out devils in your name, and he followed not with us: and we fobade him, because he followeth not with us.
But Jesus said "Forbid him not, for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
"For he that is not against us is for us."

We are not sent to change everyone by force or any other way. The best sermon you will ever give anyone is how you conduct yourself. Don't just preach about Jesus let the world see Jesus live through you. The same advice I give to anyone else. Don't just talk, demonstrate what you say by living what you believe. I've had people come out of nowhere to ask me questions when I'd never told them I was a minister. They just said they could tell. Conversion by force--no, that's why we have freedom of choice. God could make us do--He wants us to choose to do. He loved us first. We don't find God, He isn't lost. He finds us. "Adam, where art thou?" not "God, where art thou?" :wave:

[IrishCanadian]

Ancester. Please do not think that by wrting this I am being ignorent of your cuel past which you have so impressively put here for all of us to know. We've talked bout love before, you are one of the people that I love. But a traumatic event does not stop the truth from occuring. There are evil truths as well s good ones.
Nightshade. Go back and read the first thing I wrote on the first page: truth is incapable of being subjective. If two co-existing people believe entirely different things (say about the presence of the other for argument's sake) than ONE of them, at least, must be wrong. Because (as Descarte points out) just because we may not THINK that the other does doesn't mean he/she doesn't. Humans have the capacity of wrongness.

[Nightshade]

Go back and read the first thing I wrote on the first page: truth is incapable of being subjective. If two co-existing people believe entirely different things (say about the presence of the other for argument's sake) than ONE of them, at least, must be wrong. Because (as Descarte points out) just because we may not THINK that the other does doesn't mean he/she doesn't.
No I did read that and I still stand by that what you are talking about is fact what I am talking about is truth or what is percived to be real actual fact.
Truth is it cannot be proven therefore truth is changable.
:D

Ps this is one of my all time favourite arguments (with love does not exsist) and I can go on discusiing this forever and a day so be warned Im stubborn but love to find out more about the other point of view
:D

[Logos]

I will convert you. At all Costs.
You may come willlingly.


P.S. I'm coming after you Ancestor.

And I hope you are joking :)

[Ancestor]

I hope that A Hard Rain is not serious but if he is then I may have caused a problem that I did not wish to create. Nightshade and Irishcanadian you both have not given me the wrong impressions at all. In fact I am glad you also feel comfortable in sharing ideals with me and I have found it to be a wonderful learning exprience for me. Thank you. :D I do however feel that we each have a path to walk in life and I try to learn from my past mistakes. I find that at this point in my life it is easier to talk about my life. I thought that perhaps this person would rather blame the man for the violent act of rape rather then realize anyone can commit violence. But what both of you said also made sense to me. It seems we tend to always run away from what can harm us. Husbands rape wives and wives can rape husbands but I can never have made it through without my faith. For me my faith shows my inner being and not just believing in a higher being. Spiritual awareness for me has helped me heal and for the longest time I blamed God for what happened. In truth God was not the one who comitted the act but the adult male human being. I looked at every male and hated them for what one man did and that was unfair to those whom have never harmed me. I guess that is one reason I believe we must all find the path that allows us to grow as a person whether it is a spiritual one or not. After all a spiritual path is just one of many paths we walk each day.

[bhekti]

...Conversion by force--no, that's why we have freedom of choice. God could make us do--He wants us to choose to do. He loved us first. We don't find God, He isn't lost. He finds us. "Adam, where art thou?" not "God, where art thou?" :wave:

Yes, that's it. :nod:

[bhekti]

the truth is only what is seen as the truth at any one time the truth does not exsist its a concept
for example (actually this is a rotten example but my ususal one is way to political to get into)
Back when they thought the earth was flat (which FYI they never did) it was flat to all intents and purposes this was the truth- a truth.
Now weve seen the earth is globular it is the truth it is a truth. but both wre true in their times.
see?

I think you're talking about "Discourse" there, not about "truth" when I said "the truth is one". What I meant by "truth" is what is in Greek "Dikaiosune", or in English "Righteousness" or "The truth". I also didn't mean "truth" as "Aleithea", or in English "truth" which can be pluralized.

So, again. The truth is one. Does everyone should believe the same? Yes, that is, everyone should believe in the truth.

PS:
I know it raise a problem as it is impossible for all of us, being lost, to trully seek and differentiate and finally find the truth. We have not the capacity. All we can do is to admit that we are outside the truth (the highest achievement of logic).

[Pendragon]

I blamed God for what happened. In truth God was not the one who comitted the act but the adult male human being. I looked at every male and hated them for what one man did and that was unfair to those whom have never harmed me. I guess that is one reason I believe we must all find the path that allows us to grow as a person whether it is a spiritual one or not. After all a spiritual path is just one of many paths we walk each day. Oh my, Ancestor, you have had a thorny path to walk. Maybe this won't mean a lot, but I'll remember you in my prayers for the senseless violence perpertrated against you. Try to keep in mind a line from a poem I once wrote, for things in the past, not comparable to what any woman (or man for that matter) that is raped must go through, kept haunting me. "It is the road behind, not the road ahead, that is forever barred to our footsteps." We cannot change the past, so we must be certain that the past doesn't change us, hold our head high, and proudly face the future. "This is me now, I'm glad to be me, and I'm going forward!" http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/061.gifTake care.

[subterranean]

Say, I'm just wondering..what's your opinion on Metaphysical Subjectivism


Go back and read the first thing I wrote on the first page: truth is incapable of being subjective. If two co-existing people believe entirely different things (say about the presence of the other for argument's sake) than ONE of them, at least, must be wrong. Because (as Descarte points out) just because we may not THINK that the other does doesn't mean he/she doesn't. Humans have the capacity of wrongness.

[IrishCanadian]

Haha. golly gee whizz. I was expecting that one to come earlier. As I said on the last page I consider truth to be an entity. Like what behkti said "the truth is one." When I was tlking about the peoples ability to be wrong about the truth of each other, the same goes for the metphisical. Just because we think that there is no God doesn't mean he isn't there. To open up the spectrim (possibly to the advantage of those who disagree with me) just because we thought we saw a ghost doesn't mean it is there. Perception decieves. Anyway I say that the metapisical cannot be subjective, and since my brain works in analogies here's another one:
Two people walk in the Sout American Rain Forest and come across a clearing with a well kept vegitable garden. The first person says "what a fine coincidence" the second says "who was here before us?" Similarily, if this world had no omnipresent, ever-working creator there would be total discourse, trees would fly into the air, my brain would work backwards, every simbiosis would gain a destructive flaw. You might find it interesting to read St. Thomas Acquinas' Argument From Design.

Ancestor, I'll pray for you.

[Ancestor]

Thank you Pendragon and Irishcanadian for the prayers they are most appreciated. :angel:

[Ancestor]

Curious how this poll is going seems more people are for having all kinds of faith and that it is alright to not have faith. Since humans have free will why do we feel like taking it away? Now I do not mean this in a offensive way because no one has come out and said they were taking free will away. But by saying we should all be doing this and how wrong it is to that are we not taking the free will away? That is what it feels like when someone comes up to me and does not accept my faith as a true faith. One reason I do not force my beliefs upon anyone and if they ask me about my faith I share it. I always state but this how I feel and they are my beliefs. I enjoy learning about others faiths and even they do not have faith just learning about a person can help you grow as one. It boils down for me wanting to learn more about you and your beliefs or non beliefs. Looking forward to seeing what others have to say.