Translated Poem

[Koa]

Here is a poem I originally wrote in Italian, and translated into English some months ago with the help of Bartholomeus Bloom. Many doubts weren't solved during that translation session, so if any native English speaker would be so kind to correct mistakes or indicate what would sound more natural in English, that would be appreciated. I put in italics some alternative versions when I'm not sure what is more correct.

The hypotetic title would be 'Immobilità Vegetale', meaning 'Vegetable stillness', if 'vegetable' is good as an adjective as it only reminds me of tomatoes and co. ;)

I'm not totally convinced of the translation, anyway... (as you can see, the lines are numbered, hope it doesn't disturb the reading).

:oops: :oops: :oops:


1. Like an impassive tree
2. I see time flow under me
3. Like the wind lashes the shrubs
4. the aversities bend me and life wimps me

5. The seasons change
6. brief buds of joy
7. and bare branches in the chill of sorrow

8. The powerful wood of the oak
9. doesn't change in the course of centuries
10. so (this way) the events
11. (pass near me) are passing me nearby and brush against me
12. but reality never gets to touch me
13. nymph of woods
14. contained (???) in this trunk
15. by the ???* of an inner suicide

16. Like a motionless tree
17. I see time, nature, seasons flow (I see the flowing of time, of nature, of seasons)
18. spectator (witness?) of life
19. eternally passive
20. on his solid roots

* Any Dante readers? What is the English word for the punishment Dante gives to the characters he puts in hell??? The Italian word, which I used here, is 'contrappasso'. I had a real epiphany while writing that poem, as I suddenly remembered that in the comedy, the people who committed suicide are punished by being turned into trees...



The original version (which is far better...):

1. Come l'albero impassibile
2. vedo scorrere il tempo sotto di me
3. Come il vento sferza gli arbusti
4. le avversità mi piegano e la vita mi frusta
5. Le stagioni cambiano
6. brevi germogli di gioia
7. e rami spogli nel gelo del dolore.

8. Il legno poderoso della quercia
9. non cambia nel corso dei secoli
10. così gli avvenimenti
11. mi passano accanto e mi sfiorano
12. ma la realtà non arriva mai a toccarmi
13. ninfa dei boschi
14. racchiusa in questo tronco
15. dal contrappasso del suicidio interiore.

16. Come l'albero immobile
17. vedo scorrere il tempo, la natura, le stagioni
18. spettatore della vita
19. eternamente passivo
20. sulle sue solide radici.

[AbdoRinbo]

1. Like a placid [not quite the same connotation, but it fits nicely] tree
2. I see time flow under me.
3. Like the wind lashing the shrubs,
4. The a(d)versities bend me and Life whip me

5. The seasons change
6. Brief buds of joy
7. And bare branches in the chill of sorrow [nice].

8. The powerful wood of the Oak
9. Doesn't change in the course of centuries.
10. The events [you really don't need 'so']
11. Pass nearby and brush against me,
12. But reality never gets to touch me.
13. Nymph of woods
14. Contained (???) in this trunk
15. By the ???* of an inner suicide

16. Like a motionless tree
17. I see time, nature, seasons flow.
18. Witness to life
19. Eternally passive
20. On his solid roots.

This is very beautiful.

[Koa]

This is very beautiful
Is it? :oops: Thanks...I 'm quite satisfied of it I must admit, at least of the original...

Thanks for the suggestions...
1- 'placid' fits well indeed, but I'd like it to be as literal as possible...tho I really don't know what could be literal and soung good there at the same time
10- Right... 'so' is not needed but in the original there is a link of consequence with the previous lines... I guess it's one of those little things that get lost in translations.
14- Is 'contained' ok?
19- ah thanks very much...it was easy and we didn't think about it...

[AbdoRinbo]

Whichever way--'impassive' or 'placid'--it's not going to be a 'literal' meaning (you're personifying a tree). 'Impassive' puts a strain on the poem because it is too long a word for such a simple idea. In this case it seems best to avoid that because you want to center all of the reader's focus in on the subject. But take what I say with a grain of salt, longer words do add a certain complexity to a poem. One of the obstacles I have encountered as a student who has dabbled in writing poetry is that it is very easy to make a poem sound too simple. In other words, if you want your poem to be a living, breathing organism, you have to strike a very fragile equilibrium between words and their meanings. The trajectory (path in motion) of spoken word should carry each thought at a certain speed and for a certain distance, and then, on top of that, you have to pay close attention to how one idea spills over into the next and whether you want to lay it down gently or drop it from a distance. Most of it comes with experience with the language. Many English poets avoid using certain words because they have become cliché and convey almost no meaning at all. But anyway, my point was just that you don't want to stretch a small idea too far using extremely long words.

About the use of the word 'so': the way you used it reminds me of the kind of explanations I would always find in my high school textbook on Thermodynamics. If every consequence had to be signalled, then, accordingly, we would always say 'first' and 'secondly' and 'lastly', &c in every paragraph. I'm not sure how that works in Italian, but in English a consequence is implied more often than not.

Moving on, 'contained' sounds excellent. This is a really wonderful poem. I know very few people who can pull a poem like this off in a foreign language. It's remarkable. You and Bart are very gifted.

[Koa]

Ah, thanks for your considerations Abdo (and sorry I couldnt answer to this earlier, I've been busy).

I know what you mean about things sounding too simple, it's hard to find a balance, and I often find my poems to be too simple (especially the ones in English, but I guess I can't help it), even if I've received very beautiful comments about my simplicity in this forum a while ago...

About 'so', I think in the original version there wouldn't be a consequence without it... it's like saying 'in this way', but maybe in English it's not needed and I can do without it... (and sorry I'm not into Thermodynamics, only the word makes me want to scream).

[b]

Whow, Koa...

I really love your poem, at least the Italian version. While reading it again, it gave me a wonderful aesthetical feeling, and the lyrical-tragical emotion - uttered by means of a truly poetical metaphore - struck me as if I read it for the first time.

However: I don't think that the English 'translation' expresses the same feeling as present in the original feeling; it is not as strong, unfortunately. This - of course - has to do with the contrast between the fluently-expressive Italian and the more concealingly plentiful English, but I think that our experiences with English and Italian were to basic to be able to seize for poetical equivalents. Let me explain:

When I helped you 'translate' your poem, I hadn't had enough experiences with Italian. (Besides demotic conversations, a lot of holiday-phrases, 6 years of Latin, 5 years of French a dozen opera's and a few poems of Dante, I knew nothing.)

That changed when I read 'La Divina Commedia' in my summer holidays: the Inferno came to me like Heaven. That is why I was a bit desillusioned when I read our 'translation' of your beautiful Italian poem, which I can read and understand much more fluent right now.

Of course I have many suggestions for a new translation, now both my Italian and English have improved. Unfortunately, I am quite buisy right with my studies, so my new suggestions will probably not arrive before next weekend.

At least:

I would translate 'contrapasso' with 'counteract', or perhaps 'counterpassing', or perhaps 'countermeasure', but not 'counterdeed'.

[AbdoRinbo]

Is 'contrapasso' supposed to be a noun or a verb, because you've just described both at the same time.

[b]

Contrapasso is a noun, of course.

(Just like 'counteract', 'counterpassing', 'countermeasure' and 'counterdeed' can be.)

[AbdoRinbo]

'Counteract' is a verb, 'counteraction' is the corresponding noun.

[Koa]

(I won't quote all Bart's post here... ;))

I am aware that the English translation is not as strong as the original, but is there a way to improve it??? Of course your experience of both languages wasn't 'good' enough to provide a perfect translation, but at least for the Italian part I can say I have a perfect insight ;) Of course I don't know if there would be better expressions in English, but the way it is now seems to me quite 'adherent' (if that's the word).... remember I'm for literal translations, I dont want my translations to be beautiful and strong but totally different from the original meaning...

It flows so differently...it's all another 'rhythm' (if we can talk about rhythm in my prose-like verses), and yes it doesn't give me the same feeling...But is there a way to avoid this???
A word like 'oak' is no more than a sequence of letters to me, but what is it for a native? And the word 'contrappasso' would recall Dante to any slightly educated Italian, but it can't have the same connotation to all who read the translation... Thanks anyway for the possible English translations, they seem ok to me... I'll choose one ;)

So if you, Bart, have good ideas about a different translation, let's see them (when you have time of course)...

I really think translation is one of the most complicated issues ever... :rolleyes:

[Koa]

I would translate 'contrapasso' with 'counteract', or perhaps 'counterpassing', or perhaps 'countermeasure', but not 'counterdeed'.

I looked them up (both in a paper dictionary and online, both bilingual and English only...

counteract [ˌkaʊntər'ækt]
verb [transitive] to oppose, neutralize, or mitigate the effects of by contrary action; check
"counter'action noun
"counter'active adjective
"counter'actively adverb(ial)

We found no translation for 'counterpassing' in our English Dictionary. :-?

countermeasure ['kaʊntəˌmɛʒə]
noun action taken to oppose, neutralize, or retaliate against some other action


...And I think none of them fits at all. It's not the same... I think I should translate it as 'punishment' because that's what it is...even if it's a peculiar kind of punishment, which is based on the sin... Maybe I should put it as 'dantesque punishment', but the name it would make it too long and it would lose a lot of appeal.... uhmmm...I knew I shouldnt have translated this one...

Translation...frustration...it would work well as a proverb...

[AbdoRinbo]

What kind of punishment is it, Koa? If it is self-inflicted, then it is 'penance'. If it is punishment in order to purify (as in, Purgatory, not Hell), then it is a 'chastening'. Lastly, Punishment for the sake of punishing is 'castigation'. Perhaps one of those might do nicely instead of using the vague term, 'punishment'.

[Koa]

What kind of punishment is it, Koa? If it is self-inflicted, then it is 'penance'. If it is punishment in order to purify (as in, Purgatory, not Hell), then it is a 'chastening'. Lastly, Punishment for the sake of punishing is 'castigation'. Perhaps one of those might do nicely instead of using the vague term, 'punishment'.

Oooh an expert of punishments ;)

I'm sorry i didn't explain it earlier, it would have helped understanding my doubts. If I remember correctly both the punishment and the word were invented by Dante (Dante, the Comedy, I'm sure I don't need to explain this, my literate public knows the name at least, look it up in these very site otherwise)...
It's a punishment were the sin is reversed. To explain with examples, Dante puts characters in the different areas of hell, and invents a punishment for every cathegory of sins... So the ones who commited 'violence against themselves' (=suicide) are turned into trees: I think the logic here is: they despised life, they're vegetables now (edit: I looked it up, to be more precise: they despised their body, they don't have it anymore and won't have it back not even on Judgement Day)...Or the guilty of lust, who in life let the wind of passion carry them, are now carried by a neverending storm. And so on...

The Hell is infact quite interesting, though I admire people like Bart that read the whole Comedy on their own... I used to find it incredibly boring (especially the Purgatory and Paradise) at school, where it's subject of lessons for 3 years in some kind of high schools.

[AbdoRinbo]

Now you know how we feel about Shakespeare. Reading him in high school was a waste of time, no one enjoyed it, and most people just grabbed the cliff notes anyway (America is a little more practically orientated-----computer science, mathematics, medicine, &c.-----than Europe). Even I blew it off in high school; if I read literature, I did it outside of school. Anyway, I've never read The Divine Comedy, but I have read an annotated edition of William Blake's screen prints for all three books. They are very beautiful, and I suppose after having read that, reading Dante would be the next logical step.

[Koa]

I see...Shakespeare doesn't appeal to me much I must confess, and I somehow managed to avoid studying it seriously in courses so far (I really wonder how...circumstances...), only superficially.

Btw yes school here is (or was as they're trying to change it) not practical at all, but I think in the Uk it is very practical (I cant compare to the USA as I have no knowledge of that)... Something in the middle would be ideal :) I like my theoric education tho... Even if Dante was really a good sleep... ;)

[AbdoRinbo]

I love science, more so than literature. I'm glad the US funds programs like NASA and projects like the multi-billion dollar Proton Accelerators; without them we wouldn't know very much about Chemistry and Physics (which is tantamount to saying Medicine and Microprocessing, the latter being the sole reason we are having this discussion right now).

You're correct though, the UK is very pragmatic, but I never considered them part of Europe anyway. Europe, from my experiences, seems very small-minded (I mean that as a compliment). The people living there seem to have an appreciation for the smaller details of everyday life. They are not so hung up on politics. I mean, how important is a country like Austria to the world (look at their military)? They have no reason to be concerned at all (again, I mean this as a compliment to any Austrians listening out there). Only in a country like the US-----the 900-pound Gorilla-----would anyone care about dismantling dictatorships halfway across the globe. Everyone should just be proud of us, cuz we are. :rolleyes:

[hady]

hello everybody
i need your help in translating this message into arabic
the poem is :
"She Dwelt Among Untrodden Ways"


She dwelt among the untrodden ways
Beside the springs of Dove,
Maid whom there were none to praise
And very few to love:

A violet by a mosy tone
Half hidden from the eye!
---Fair as a star, when only one
Is shining in the sky.

She lived unknown, and few could know
When Lucy ceased to be;
But she is in her grave, and, oh,
The difference to me!

William Wordswor